Author Topic: Proof is knowledge|No proof is a belief  (Read 7826 times)

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August 12, 2006, 05:52:28 PM
Reply #15

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Why are you not getting anything I am saying? Veritas isn't out there to attract new people, its not here to 'inspire' people by showing off.

I am getting what you're saying. what I'M saying is that I disagree with it. I think inspiration coupled with guides and teaching (much like what Faijer said) is a much better idea than saying "here it is, go for it and leave us the hell alone" which may not be what you're saying, but it's what I'm hearing.
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August 13, 2006, 08:35:38 PM
Reply #16

`Nazukarr

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In the Main Hall we've been talking about the idea of a Veritas Wikipedia entry. I find your statement to be contradictory to the idea of a forum that gladly welcomes new people to the OEC, offers a mentoring program, and who is actively seeking new ways to promote its existance and draw people to it.

My point was that Veritas is a guide to people seeking to further their studies in magick. While attracting loads of new people to the community is definately a plus, it certainly isn't the main goal. The main goal is to guide and teach people that are willing to be taught about magick, and psi, and chi. And plus, there is a difference in being a welcoming society and being a slave to popularity. Attracting people and getting loads of members, again, is a plus, but why waste so much time trying to gain popularity when you can be spending your time educating others who already believe? 

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Again I disagree. Yes, Veritas is here to provide people with a guide to their studies, but the idea that it is not here also to inspire people. I'm not sure why the two concepts are being portrayed, if only slightly, as mutually exclusive, when logically speaking the best education and learning experience comes when they are mutually inclusive.

Maybe we can't inspire them with videos or records that constitute proof. But that doesn't rule out inspiration altogether. We should be working together to inspire one another, not hoping that it comes. Inspiration has to be sought to be found, and I find it all the time in so many ways.

When we talk about inspiring people here, we're not just talking (keeping in mind the context of the entire thread) about the 'cool factor', or any of that other stuff at lower end of the spectrum. We're talking about an inspiration strong enough to get one devoted to the arts. That is something that glancing through the Veritas forums probably wont give. Videos of people performing magick or psionics will probably not do so either. That's not to say that Veritas CAN'T inspire people in that way, but the other type of inspiration -- the cool factor -- has to be there first. There has to be that little dedication to it in the first place. In most cases today, people will either be somewhat interested (or believe in) the metaphysics, or they wont.

Also, when I made that statement (Again, keeping in mind the context of the whole thread), my point was, that as a community, we shouldn't feel compelled to direct all of our time trying to 'inspire' people by means of videos, public display of power, ect. That's not what Veritas is about. Showing off our abilities is a personal thing, not a community effort. What is focused on today is the education of our fellow members, and inspiring THEM to become devoted to whatever they want to practice.

So I suppose my wording wasn't too clear in that post, but hopefully it is now.
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August 14, 2006, 06:54:27 AM
Reply #17

Faijer

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Quote from: Nazukarr
My point was that Veritas is a guide to people seeking to further their studies in magick. While attracting loads of new people to the community is definately a plus, it certainly isn't the main goal. The main goal is to guide and teach people that are willing to be taught about magick, and psi, and chi. And plus, there is a difference in being a welcoming society and being a slave to popularity. Attracting people and getting loads of members, again, is a plus, but why waste so much time trying to gain popularity when you can be spending your time educating others who already believe?
Because it doesn't take a massive amount of effort in all cases. The Wikipedia article for instance, could be put up, and checked briefly every day to make sure it is still accurate and hasn't been tampered with, but it is a permanent form of advertisement that has the potential to draw many people to the site, and it doesn't require any real effort after the article has been put up to bring them here. It's much more effective than talking to dozens of people individually and convincing them to come.

There's also a difference between being a slave to popularity and advertising the existance of something in order to raise awareness. The former is more of a social setting and the latter can be for any number of other reasons such as education, raising funds (would you say cancer research is a slave to popularity? I think that would be a misuse of the term), and others.

Quote from: Nazukarr
We're talking about an inspiration strong enough to get one devoted to the arts. That is something that glancing through the Veritas forums probably wont give. Videos of people performing magick or psionics will probably not do so either. That's not to say that Veritas CAN'T inspire people in that way, but the other type of inspiration -- the cool factor -- has to be there first. There has to be that little dedication to it in the first place.
You don't have to be inspired or dedicated from the beginning. I don't think I know many people, if any, who have woken up one morning and thought to themselves "I am going to dedicate myself to the martial arts", most people will try it first out of curiosity and dedicate themselves after a short while. The inspiration has to come not only from the sources you obtain your information and experience from, but within yourself as well: if you're not looking to be inspired by the world around you, if you aren't open to the wonders, then you'll never find them.

Quote from: Nazukarr
Also, when I made that statement (Again, keeping in mind the context of the whole thread), my point was, that as a community, we shouldn't feel compelled to direct all of our time trying to 'inspire' people by means of videos, public display of power, ect. That's not what Veritas is about. Showing off our abilities is a personal thing, not a community effort. What is focused on today is the education of our fellow members, and inspiring THEM to become devoted to whatever they want to practice.
I'm not sure exactly where I stated directly that I believe we should be putting forth a community effort to wow the masses. If you check my post history you'll actually notice that I'm quite indifferent to that entire concept anyway, and if anything I don't believe we should.
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August 14, 2006, 09:43:52 AM
Reply #18

`Nazukarr

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Because it doesn't take a massive amount of effort in all cases. The Wikipedia article for instance, could be put up, and checked briefly every day to make sure it is still accurate and hasn't been tampered with, but it is a permanent form of advertisement that has the potential to draw many people to the site, and it doesn't require any real effort after the article has been put up to bring them here. It's much more effective than talking to dozens of people individually and convincing them to come.

There's also a difference between being a slave to popularity and advertising the existance of something in order to raise awareness. The former is more of a social setting and the latter can be for any number of other reasons such as education, raising funds (would you say cancer research is a slave to popularity? I think that would be a misuse of the term), and others.

I wasn't talking about the wikipedia article. Yeah, I'm sure that can be maintained with little effort if the community wants it. I was refering originally to the content of a couple of different post, which are basically begging to give proof to everyone if they wanted to teach in the first place. So what if that didn't take much effort either? Why should anyone have to do that just because x person wants it? There's are loads of people here that nobody has to convince, and are willing to learn.

And if we're really going to feel compelled to make a whole bunch of believe by providing 'proof' that people aren't going to be willing to buy in the first place, JUST to make them believe and come to this site, we're being a slave of popularity. I know there's a difference between raising awareness and being a slave of popularity. But what I was refering to, was in no doubt, something a site that was the slave to popularity would probably do. Metaphysical sites should mainly focus on educating the masses, rather than aiming to convert all.

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You don't have to be inspired or dedicated from the beginning. I don't think I know many people, if any, who have woken up one morning and thought to themselves "I am going to dedicate myself to the martial arts", most people will try it first out of curiosity and dedicate themselves after a short while. The inspiration has to come not only from the sources you obtain your information and experience from, but within yourself as well: if you're not looking to be inspired by the world around you, if you aren't open to the wonders, then you'll never find them.

See, you didn't clearly read my post. That wasn't the dedication that a person has to have before they get into the big stuff. Why would a person come to this site, read the articles, and practice the practices if they had no reason to? If they saw it as a waste of time? They wouldn't. They would probably have to have some type of reason, which comes from inspiration. Maybe it was x-men, or maybe it had something to do with something weird happening to them as a child and the interest to test them out, I dont know --- but that's the inspiration Im talking about.

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I'm not sure exactly where I stated directly that I believe we should be putting forth a community effort to wow the masses. If you check my post history you'll actually notice that I'm quite indifferent to that entire concept anyway, and if anything I don't believe we should.

I was clarfying what I was saying in my posts, not necessarily attacking yours.
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August 14, 2006, 10:47:39 AM
Reply #19

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Quote from: Nazukarr
I wasn't talking about the wikipedia article. Yeah, I'm sure that can be maintained with little effort if the community wants it. I was refering originally to the content of a couple of different post, which are basically begging to give proof to everyone if they wanted to teach in the first place. So what if that didn't take much effort either? Why should anyone have to do that just because x person wants it? There's are loads of people here that nobody has to convince, and are willing to learn.
I'm not sure what the technical term for the phenmonenon is, but the general principle is similar to an exponential growth: with more people learning the ways of the OEC, the more people will come to the OEC because there will be more people to spread the word. I'm all for teaching those we currently have, but if we can do that and draw in more people because advertising can be done with little effort, even if it means spending a bit of time to give them proof, the better it will be because a larger community means more growth in not only numbers but diversity and educational levels. We can't teach each other for 12 hours a day, every day, it would get tedious for most, and would burn too many people out.

Ignoring that, you say these people are here and don't need convincing? Well are they all so incapable of training on their own? They're convinced, and there are plenty of methods that allow a person to train with a friend (not necessarily someone who teaches), or by themselves, so why do they need the entire society's attention?

Quote from: Nazukarr
And if we're really going to feel compelled to make a whole bunch of believe by providing 'proof' that people aren't going to be willing to buy in the first place, JUST to make them believe and come to this site, we're being a slave of popularity. I know there's a difference between raising awareness and being a slave of popularity. But what I was refering to, was in no doubt, something a site that was the slave to popularity would probably do. Metaphysical sites should mainly focus on educating the masses, rather than aiming to convert all.
Well for one, to an 'outsider', and indeed many 'insiders', what we do is full of dubiousness and skepticism. And for good reason. Most people aren't naturally inclined to believe in something that they can't detect, and even if children are more sensitive to such things, because of a lack of early training, by the time they're aware of it they've lost their natural sensitivity to it. Therefore, because one has to have faith in their mind to know it can be done, to alleviate the doubts they hold that will hinder their training, it is always good to know that you're not just crazy, and it does exist. This is not being a slave to popularity, more a justification of the site's existance: if none of this was real, why have the site? Objective proof is the best way to convince outsiders curious about the OEC that it isn't all fake, and it would serve to accelerate the early stages because there would be far less doubt.

(though please note, I am, more than anything, simply playing Devil's Advocate here, as I am indifferent to the whole situation of people believing in it - I think that people who shun it all as fake are too narrow minded, and I think that people who believe it the moment they hear about it are too gullible)

Quote from: Nazukarr
See, you didn't clearly read my post. That wasn't the dedication that a person has to have before they get into the big stuff. Why would a person come to this site, read the articles, and practice the practices if they had no reason to? If they saw it as a waste of time? They wouldn't. They would probably have to have some type of reason, which comes from inspiration. Maybe it was x-men, or maybe it had something to do with something weird happening to them as a child and the interest to test them out, I dont know --- but that's the inspiration Im talking about.
I did, and I don't attribute that to the definition of inspiration, but the definition of curiosity. Taking the X-Men example you gave, I can't logically state that a person with no prior training in psionics say, was inspired to go off and learn how to do it. Why? Well for starters they're liable to put stock in the 'film reality' theory over the 'basis in reality'. Therefore in this particular example, the most likely thing to draw them to the OEC is curiosity: can it be done? I understand what you mean, I just use a different wording.

Quote from: Nazukarr
I was clarfying what I was saying in my posts, not necessarily attacking yours.
Indeed, no offense intended. Consider that clarification of my position on the matter :wink:
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August 14, 2006, 02:45:51 PM
Reply #20

`Nazukarr

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Indeed, no offense intended. Consider that clarification of my position on the matter ;P

Okay, okay, Julie coolies, Im not hated. :)

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I'm not sure what the technical term for the phenmonenon is, but the general principle is similar to an exponential growth: with more people learning the ways of the OEC, the more people will come to the OEC because there will be more people to spread the word. I'm all for teaching those we currently have, but if we can do that and draw in more people because advertising can be done with little effort, even if it means spending a bit of time to give them proof, the better it will be because a larger community means more growth in not only numbers but diversity and educational levels. We can't teach each other for 12 hours a day, every day, it would get tedious for most, and would burn too many people out.

Ignoring that, you say these people are here and don't need convincing? Well are they all so incapable of training on their own? They're convinced, and there are plenty of methods that allow a person to train with a friend (not necessarily someone who teaches), or by themselves, so why do they need the entire society's attention?

My point was, and still is, that the Veritas community should not feel the need to go out of its way to provide proof for people. Thats it. Advertising is nice, and easy, and it can be done with little effort. Being determine to prove to everyone that psionics is real to 'inspire' people for a OEC that focuses on teaching its members, however, is a bit unhealthy. I'm not saying that the teachers are to watch our progression like hawks all day and not focus on anything else, I'm just saying at as a community we shouldn't go out just to prove that the metaphysics is real.

I'm not completely understanding what you're trying to get across to me in your second paragraph.

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Well for one, to an 'outsider', and indeed many 'insiders', what we do is full of dubiousness and skepticism. And for good reason. Most people aren't naturally inclined to believe in something that they can't detect, and even if children are more sensitive to such things, because of a lack of early training, by the time they're aware of it they've lost their natural sensitivity to it. Therefore, because one has to have faith in their mind to know it can be done, to alleviate the doubts they hold that will hinder their training, it is always good to know that you're not just crazy, and it does exist. This is not being a slave to popularity, more a justification of the site's existance: if none of this was real, why have the site? Objective proof is the best way to convince outsiders curious about the OEC that it isn't all fake, and it would serve to accelerate the early stages because there would be far less doubt.

(though please note, I am, more than anything, simply playing Devil's Advocate here, as I am indifferent to the whole situation of people believing in it - I think that people who shun it all as fake are too narrow minded, and I think that people who believe it the moment they hear about it are too gullible)

Right, and I agree, but as a community we still shouldnt go around doing shows just to make people believe. Introducing the subject and advertising is one thing, but why should we have to further prove our abilities to people rude enough to come in and demand it?


« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 02:48:03 PM by Nazukarr »
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August 14, 2006, 03:18:30 PM
Reply #21

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Quote from: Nazukarr
My point was, and still is, that the Veritas community should not feel the need to go out of its way to provide proof for people. Thats it. Advertising is nice, and easy, and it can be done with little effort. Being determine to prove to everyone that psionics is real to 'inspire' people for a OEC that focuses on teaching its members, however, is a bit unhealthy. I'm not saying that the teachers are to watch our progression like hawks all day and not focus on anything else, I'm just saying at as a community we shouldn't go out just to prove that the metaphysics is real.
I agree with the idea that we shouldn't have to go out of our way, and that we shouldn't want to focus on proving to everyone (if we could prove it to everyone, I'm sure Veritas as it exists now would become a thing of the past and evolve into something much larger anyway). But I honestly don't think that every time someone asks for proof, that anyone has gone and found a load of articles and written out a dissertation to explain it, I'm pretty sure that in the bowels of the site we have a list of articles and more than enough explanations. Simply pointing people towards such things should be enough, they can then read them in their own time and ask questions if they have any (though ideally the article(s) should be comprehensive enough to avoid that).

Kind of lost what my point was meant to be, but I think that's enough said on that matter anyway...

Quote from: Nazukarr
I'm not completely understanding what you're trying to get across to me in your second paragraph
Simply that we don't necessarily need to devote a massive amount of attention to those people who are already aware, because since they are aware they should also be able to act independantly to a certain degree within their own development. I'm not saying that once a person comes to the OEC and believes, that they should be left alone, simply that they don't need to (in fact I don't think they should have) all the attention focused on them, because if there are other potential students out there who would be as willing to learn, why should they be denied it just because they haven't managed to bump into the site yet? I'm not saying we have to go hunting for them, but simply that placing promotions and plugs in the right places would just increase the probability that such people would find us.

Quote from: Nazukarr
Right, and I agree, but as a community we still shouldnt go around doing shows just to make people believe. Introducing the subject and advertising is one thing, but why should we have to further prove our abilities to people rude enough to come in and demand it?
What would the alternative be? Be rude back and tell them to get lost? Seems a little purile to me (though I accept you may not have been thinking of that as the nearest alternative, I'm just using it as an example). Why not simply rise above them and give them what they want, and have no sense of pride in the matter? If people ask for something rudely, then fine, ask them to be more polite, but don't deny them it on that basis alone, that makes you worse than they are (in my opinion anyway).
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August 14, 2006, 04:02:07 PM
Reply #22

`Nazukarr

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I agree with the idea that we shouldn't have to go out of our way, and that we shouldn't want to focus on proving to everyone (if we could prove it to everyone, I'm sure Veritas as it exists now would become a thing of the past and evolve into something much larger anyway). But I honestly don't think that every time someone asks for proof, that anyone has gone and found a load of articles and written out a dissertation to explain it, I'm pretty sure that in the bowels of the site we have a list of articles and more than enough explanations. Simply pointing people towards such things should be enough, they can then read them in their own time and ask questions if they have any (though ideally the article(s) should be comprehensive enough to avoid that).

Kind of lost what my point was meant to be, but I think that's enough said on that matter anyway..

The problem is, most people aren't like that at all. People come here and demand proof (rudely, I might add), but they aren't willing to do anything on their own time. I dont know, people dont work like that. Kakkarot was talking about proving psionics to some random person the other day, and they keep arguing about it. Kakkarot gave him some book to read with information on the matter, but did they read anything? No, they come back and continue to argue. Pointing out things to people who really only want undeniable physical proof (which is quite difficult for most of the members to produce anyway) isn't going to satisfy anyone. We're at the point where we ARE pointing people out to articles -- and so are other OECs. My beef with the situation is that I'm fed up with people demanding for proof, when there a) No way we can really provide 'proof' to them or b) we dont want to in the first place. People should respect that, but they dont. We get additional whining. So far, the pointing people out to articles thing hasn't worked for the most part.

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Simply that we don't necessarily need to devote a massive amount of attention to those people who are already aware, because since they are aware they should also be able to act independantly to a certain degree within their own development. I'm not saying that once a person comes to the OEC and believes, that they should be left alone, simply that they don't need to (in fact I don't think they should have) all the attention focused on them, because if there are other potential students out there who would be as willing to learn, why should they be denied it just because they haven't managed to bump into the site yet? I'm not saying we have to go hunting for them, but simply that placing promotions and plugs in the right places would just increase the probability that such people would find us.

I think that's all fine and dandy. However, as I said before, going out and aiming to prove things to people just to rub it in their faces isn't something we should do.

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What would the alternative be? Be rude back and tell them to get lost? Seems a little purile to me (though I accept you may not have been thinking of that as the nearest alternative, I'm just using it as an example). Why not simply rise above them and give them what they want, and have no sense of pride in the matter? If people ask for something rudely, then fine, ask them to be more polite, but don't deny them it on that basis alone, that makes you worse than they are (in my opinion anyway).

If someone's going to be rude, they should expect someone to equally rude in return. Anyway, being the bigger person is definately the way to go, but that doesn't mean to give them what they want. What did they did for us to 'give them what they want'? If people here are willing to provide them with proof, then they can do so, but at this point, it looks people aren't, and they shouldn't be compelled to either. In a case like this, guiding people to articles would probably be the best thing to do -- but then again, I doubt that's going to satisfy anyone.


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August 14, 2006, 04:31:32 PM
Reply #23

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The problem is, most people aren't like that at all. People come here and demand proof (rudely, I might add), but they aren't willing to do anything on their own time. I dont know, people dont work like that. Kakkarot was talking about proving psionics to some random person the other day, and they keep arguing about it. Kakkarot gave him some book to read with information on the matter, but did they read anything? No, they come back and continue to argue. Pointing out things to people who really only want undeniable physical proof (which is quite difficult for most of the members to produce anyway) isn't going to satisfy anyone. We're at the point where we ARE pointing people out to articles -- and so are other OECs. My beef with the situation is that I'm fed up with people demanding for proof, when there a) No way we can really provide 'proof' to them or b) we dont want to in the first place. People should respect that, but they dont. We get additional whining. So far, the pointing people out to articles thing hasn't worked for the most part.
I believe the common term for them on the Internet is trolls. They're people who want to argue for the sake of arguing. Point them to it, if they don't read it, don't even acknowledge their questions or comments. If they want physical, actual, verifiable proof, then direct them to scientific studies that are just that. If they continue to bitch and whine, again, don't acknowledge them. People like that annoy the crap out of me, because they have no desire to open their minds and accept possibilities, just a desire to be right.

Quote from: Nazukarr
going out and aiming to prove things to people just to rub it in their faces isn't something we should do.
No, of course. That's what the promotion and plugging's for. Show them where we are, and they can come to us.

Quote from: Nazukarr
If someone's going to be rude, they should expect someone to equally rude in return.
There's a saying: Don't try to argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level of stupidity and beat you with experience.

Quote from: Nazukarr
Anyway, being the bigger person is definately the way to go, but that doesn't mean to give them what they want. What did they did for us to 'give them what they want'? If people here are willing to provide them with proof, then they can do so, but at this point, it looks people aren't, and they shouldn't be compelled to either. In a case like this, guiding people to articles would probably be the best thing to do -- but then again, I doubt that's going to satisfy anyone.
People are in a society that has a few big psychological issues due to our lifestyles in the western world. Instant Gratification is one that I started to become aware of 3 or 4 years ago, and is quite a major one in this particular context. Everybody wants their whims catered for them yesterday. That pretty much sums it up. As far as I'm concerned, if people want physical, actual, verifiable proof, and aren't willing to either look for it or accept that it does exist, then I have no desire to continue to cater to their desires. They should simply give up the search for pre-proof and try out some of what we have to teach, all the proof they need will come to them if they have an open mind.
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August 14, 2006, 05:05:16 PM
Reply #24

`Nazukarr

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The problem is, most people aren't like that at all. People come here and demand proof (rudely, I might add), but they aren't willing to do anything on their own time. I dont know, people dont work like that. Kakkarot was talking about proving psionics to some random person the other day, and they keep arguing about it. Kakkarot gave him some book to read with information on the matter, but did they read anything? No, they come back and continue to argue. Pointing out things to people who really only want undeniable physical proof (which is quite difficult for most of the members to produce anyway) isn't going to satisfy anyone. We're at the point where we ARE pointing people out to articles -- and so are other OECs. My beef with the situation is that I'm fed up with people demanding for proof, when there a) No way we can really provide 'proof' to them or b) we dont want to in the first place. People should respect that, but they dont. We get additional whining. So far, the pointing people out to articles thing hasn't worked for the most part.
I believe the common term for them on the Internet is trolls. They're people who want to argue for the sake of arguing. Point them to it, if they don't read it, don't even acknowledge their questions or comments. If they want physical, actual, verifiable proof, then direct them to scientific studies that are just that. If they continue to bitch and whine, again, don't acknowledge them. People like that annoy the crap out of me, because they have no desire to open their minds and accept possibilities, just a desire to be right.

Quote from: Nazukarr
going out and aiming to prove things to people just to rub it in their faces isn't something we should do.
No, of course. That's what the promotion and plugging's for. Show them where we are, and they can come to us.

Quote from: Nazukarr
If someone's going to be rude, they should expect someone to equally rude in return.
There's a saying: Don't try to argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level of stupidity and beat you with experience.

Quote from: Nazukarr
Anyway, being the bigger person is definately the way to go, but that doesn't mean to give them what they want. What did they did for us to 'give them what they want'? If people here are willing to provide them with proof, then they can do so, but at this point, it looks people aren't, and they shouldn't be compelled to either. In a case like this, guiding people to articles would probably be the best thing to do -- but then again, I doubt that's going to satisfy anyone.
People are in a society that has a few big psychological issues due to our lifestyles in the western world. Instant Gratification is one that I started to become aware of 3 or 4 years ago, and is quite a major one in this particular context. Everybody wants their whims catered for them yesterday. That pretty much sums it up. As far as I'm concerned, if people want physical, actual, verifiable proof, and aren't willing to either look for it or accept that it does exist, then I have no desire to continue to cater to their desires. They should simply give up the search for pre-proof and try out some of what we have to teach, all the proof they need will come to them if they have an open mind.

Looks like we've reached a basic agreement. And hey, I'm just saying, rudeness in return is to be expected. ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 05:07:52 PM by Nazukarr »
I am not this hair, I am not this skin, I am the soul that lives within.

August 14, 2006, 08:21:16 PM
Reply #25

kobok

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The proof is already there.  People who do not understand this have either not seen it (so point them to it), or have actively ignored or denied it.  For those who actively ignore or deny it, their behaviors are often rude and confrontational when they ask for proof, and so it is experience with these people which has Nazukarr a bit infuriated (and understandably so).

I believe the ultimate solution is simply to make their beliefs obsolete.  Continue to research and develop new methods and training techniques until blind disbelief is no longer relevant.  If we succeed in this, who believed what in 2006 is merely a historical footnote.
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