Author Topic: Proof is knowledge|No proof is a belief  (Read 7825 times)

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August 11, 2006, 12:13:46 AM
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Shadowx089

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Proof is the best way to get someone to finally...I guess Know. Its funny how you people wish to help/teach but when the time comes for you to show it...you refuse to. If you say you can do something in the real world every person you meet will want proof. If you have proof then put it on a notepad and Copy and paste the proof when ever you get asked. We did not get to where we are now by not showing proof. So if you can prove it and the proof is undeniable. Then by god please keep that close at hand.

If you can't prove it. Then do not say its real. Just say I know its possible.Then merely just let them wonder. Let that be the end. But remember the goal is to be able to prove it. 

Some of you say you can prove it. Then do so. If you wish to help and teach others rather than just gain knowledge for youself. Then proof is the best way to show what you know is right.

For those who say they can prove it but say they do not need to prove it to you. Then don't even bother saying its real. Just completely ignore the question being put out there. (put up or shut up) 


I came here out of curiosity. Although I understood a lot to begin with. Never willing to waste time on ideas that have already failed. I asked like many others have and many more will. Can you prove it? I thought this was suppost to be a place where people can share their knowledge.

Knowledge is something that has proof. Without proof it has now becomes a belief. But this is no religion. So you merely think/know its real.

(Could)>(Think)>(know)>(Knowledge)

Its very simple really. It starts like this. 
Phase 1:(It could be real.) 
Phase 2:(I think its real)
Phase 3:(I know its real)
Phase 4:(It is real) which means you finally you can say you have the (knowledge)

To say the least some of you are still at phase 3. No one has yet to get to phase 4.

"Just in case you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm talk about magic and psi and all the others you desire to explore."

To start my rant of inspiration<(I hope). I will guess explain myself. I for one do not care about magic or psi. Now you might be thinking what? Hes posted a topic about proof and he not gonna really care when we give it to him. NO that's wrong I will be so happy and enjoyed. Hey I might even give it a shot, just to feel what its like. See the problem is you people have turned magic and psi a little more on a religious side. yep that's right you turned it into a religion. How have you done this? Easy its because none of you has shown the proof its real. Without this proof you turned it into a belief. Yep, that's right "phase 2". But wait your now saying you don't think its real but know its real. "phase 3". Although I put the system up there its not perfect. "phase 2" and "phase 3" are very close to the same. The fact of the matter is you can know something but yet not have any proof to back yourself with.
Now "phase 4" This is the part we decided to stop at. If anyone ever says the words "It is real or its real" They must of have proof. If they don't its obvious that they only "know" or "think" its real. If you can say "Its real" Then you must have proof.

Turn this belief into a reality.

I'm trying to finish what you people have started. That you people seemed to have gotten lost at.

This is where you should show your proof. I know some things along the lines of magic and psi can't really be explain by undeniable proof in text or videos. But so many others can.

Please don't post anything unnecessary.

If You have proof put it here so anytime you get asked to  "prove it". Just send them right here.

If any errors show up or think something should be changed to better itself. Please MSG me

So this is the place to show it. Show me and yourself and others the proof. Proof can be discredited even in videos but that does not matter. I ask for you, the people to make your own real videos to show proof and keep them coming.
Comfort of the Lord, comforted by God.
If nothing existed but the Source and the Source - Created everything - Is the Creation from the Source? - If the Creation can behold intelligence - Then does the Source also have intelligence? - After all - The Source was far more than its Creation.

August 11, 2006, 02:28:36 AM
Reply #1

Wil

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This 'system' you have sounds fair, however it has two major flaws -- most things discussed and focused on in this community can not be 'proven' in textual form. Sure, Subject A could write out how he has done such and such feat, but saying that he has done it is NOT proof.

The second flaw has to do with belief and ability -- nobody has to show or prove to you anything. You can beg and plead as much as you wish, but the fact of the matter is that most people have no reason to prove anything to anyone. There have been instances where people have proven things, however you must believe in what they have shown you for to be 'proven to'. For example, Subject B could tell you your middle name and what the last 3 meals you've had -- but if you don't believe that they have the ability, that what they just did was simply luck, then there is no belief.

The general idea of this entire thread is good, I'm sure, but the feel of it seems more like you begging for someone to prove 'all this' to you. Nobody can prove anything to you -- you can only prove things to yourself. The fact that you say "To say the least some of you are still at phase 3. No one has yet to get to phase 4." shows your ignorance in this as well.
Mister Wil

August 11, 2006, 09:04:10 AM
Reply #2

Prophecy

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Hmm.  There are a few reasons why this system is inefficient.

1.)  Many of us, myself included, have been self initiated.  What does this mean?  It means that we had no one to show that something was certainly possible before we ever tried it, and so stumbling into the darkness of mere hope we had to experiment for ourselves and be either let down or uplifted.  The question may arise, "Why did you not ask people you knew could do it to show it to you?"  For one, this would require physical contact, and I would wager that the majority of the members here do not have a neighborhood occultist that can produce such phenomenon.  The result is that the only source left available are internet videos, which, as has been demonstrated far too many times, are reproducible without anything paranormal at all with just a little effort.  Personally I prefer it this way: I have experienced the great and invaluable personal insight and progression of understanding which can occur only when you test something out of belief yourself, to see if it is real to you.  I do not see where it is my place to rob the next generation of students from this chance for growth.  So what of those who are deterred by this lack of evidence?  Wheat from chaff, quite simply.  They would not have made it in the long run, and experience verifies this statement to be true. 

2.)  There come certain points where you will, invariably, be required to produce your own proof to yourself, not to anyone else, in order to personally verify that the things you believe are real.  The only way, in many cases, to go through with this is to act under the presumption that what you are about to test is indeed real already, but that you simply have not yet experienced it.  What is the mechanism of this step?  Faith.  To use an example, when I performed my first evocation I had no technical reason to believe that spirits were real, or if they were real, certainly no reason to believe that I could call them into my presence.  However I had faith in the teachings of my path, I believed that there were such entities and that as the innately divine creation of God I could conjure the authority to call them down.  The result?  The reward of my faith was the experience of interaction with a spirit:  one which I could ask to prove its existence to me and which would be bound to do so.  In this particular case the necessary bridge was faith; due to the nature of magic if I approached the evocation with anything less than complete (hitherto blind) faith, it would not have been a success.  There are indeed cases of people who have performed evocation to test it believing it to be fraud, and then themselves experienced its validity: such cases I am afraid, however, are few and far between, and require the perfect formula to occur.

This is a recurring trend, and it becomes more dominant the further you progress into your system.  You simply can not look to exterior forces to prove to you what you desire to know and expect to be babied into progression.  Most certainly you may acquire a great deal of knowledge this way, but in many metaphysical paths there is a certain key truth:

Wisdom is more potent than knowledge can ever be

Wisdom is not simply the knowledge you have applied towards a specific end and experienced, but quite further it is the experiences you maintained in the acquisition of said knowledge.  Without both vital parts of obtaining wisdom you can not completely understand the trials and tribulations of your path, and therefore you wil invariably become handicapped.

There is a subtle third reason for the lack of such proof, and it is found in the paths of occultism: the Law of Silence.  Many of the more successful magicians have taken either a personal oath or a pledge to an Order in recognition of a certain proven law: that the more people who know about your operations, the more chance there is for interference and therefor failure.  Apart from this mechanism it also serves as an exercise in humility; a trait that is required if you are to become anything significant. 


Your approach to understanding can bear fruit indeed, but it must be seen as a system for critical thinking and double-checking one's self, and must be extrapolated to become a purely implicit personal approach, not relying on external factors to influence what you know to be real.

On a personal note, I believe the function of this community is not to progress its members to what you call "phase four."  It is to first propose to them an idea, allowing them to enter phase one at all.  Once this idea is proposed the mechanisms which support the idea are provided, usually entirely theoretically, allowing the mental faculty of the reader to decide for himself if he desires to advance to phase two on this particular subject.  Should he choose to he will begin to apply the theory presented in his own life, or read further and find that it answers certain pivotal questions he had.  Once the proposed idea makes sense to the reader instead of simply seeming like a sound theory, then the reader progresses from phase two into phase three.  When he has reached phase three then the instructional aspect of this community has not only finished but was in fact very successful in its initial undertaking.  From phase three the burden changes from the shoulders of the community to the shoulders of the student, who should seek out methods by which he may prove to himself the reality of the idea originally only proposed as a possibility.  If he finds himself unable to prove the existence of the idea in some personal shape or form, then one of two conclusions may be drawn: first that he is doing something incorrectly, or second that the idea simply does not translate into reality.  If the second appears to be the case then the idea may soundly be disregarded. 

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We did not get to where we are now by not showing proof.

As a metaphysical community in general, yes we did.  Particularly in occultism the teachings of the learned are passed down by oration or by text, and all that is proposed is the presumed belief that the person in question has himself accomplished this task and therefore can testify to its existence.  However this is only a testimony, and testimonies are far from proven truths.  What has been the method of progression then?  Faith and belief.  If the writer or master is believed, we may build upon that belief and progress foward without having to spend decades going back through and experiencing everything that particular person experienced to prove to himself that the belief was reality.  If we simply have faith that this is so, then we may use that as our foundation instead of returning to ground zero, allowing us to progress further than those before us have.  If by using this foundational mechanism we find that other things built upon it work and can be verified as true, then in time it may be concluded that the validity of the foundational claims were in fact true as well, in so far as they decided the reality of additions.  If this approach were not taken then there would never be progression in the occult community.

August 11, 2006, 11:42:09 AM
Reply #3

`Nazukarr

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Proof is the best way to get someone to finally...I guess Know. Its funny how you people wish to help/teach but when the time comes for you to show it...you refuse to. If you say you can do something in the real world every person you meet will want proof. If you have proof then put it on a notepad and Copy and paste the proof when ever you get asked. We did not get to where we are now by not showing proof. So if you can prove it and the proof is undeniable. Then by god please keep that close at hand.

If you can't prove it. Then do not say its real. Just say I know its possible.Then merely just let them wonder. Let that be the end. But remember the goal is to be able to prove it.

Some of you say you can prove it. Then do so. If you wish to help and teach others rather than just gain knowledge for youself. Then proof is the best way to show what you know is right.

For those who say they can prove it but say they do not need to prove it to you. Then don't even bother saying its real. Just completely ignore the question being put out there. (put up or shut up)



Hmmm, well ShadowX, I knew this type of post was coming from you for a long time now, so I decided that I would comment.  First off, you seem to be under the delusion that people in this community have to prove their own experiences to you. To make it easy for you, Im going to tell you right now ; they dont. We have many hard working, dedicated people to this site that have come together to _GUIDE_ many aspiring occultists. Nobody is here to 'prove' any of their experiences to anyone else in this community --- and again, much less you. What IF other people in the real world want to see proof? Well, nobody HAS to show THEM proof either.

And I think its completely disrespectful for you to come here, to a site where people believe in the metaphysics, and demand proof. Really, I do. We all believe in this stuff, we dont NEED proof. When we talk about the metaphysics in the chats, we do so ALREADY BELIEVING that the stuff is real. We all know it is. Why would we be here if we didn't? We, as the members, are here to further our studies, and it we would make no progression if we sat there and debated whether the stuff we're trying to learn is REAL or not. We KNOW it is, and we KNOW it is, whether it follows your guidelines or not. So please, dont try to debate with anyone with whether the metaphysics is real. It is, and if you dont like what we have to say, you are always free to leave. Remember; nobody is holding you back.

Quote
Knowledge is something that has proof. Without proof it has now becomes a belief. But this is no religion. So you merely think/know its real.

(Could)>(Think)>(know)>(Knowledge)

Its very simple really. It starts like this.
Phase 1:(It could be real.)
Phase 2:(I think its real)
Phase 3:(I know its real)
Phase 4:(It is real) which means you finally you can say you have the (knowledge)

To say the least some of you are still at phase 3. No one has yet to get to phase 4.

"Just in case you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm talk about magic and psi and all the others you desire to explore."


I dont know, but Im thinking that phase three and phase four are roughly the the same thing. If you KNOW its real than you know IT IS REAL. Anyways, thank you for defining knowledge for us, but nobody needs it. Who are you to barge in here and tell us how to believe what we believe? We know magick is real whether we follow these phases or not. So go ahead, be the pseudo intellectual here and chant 'blind faith, blinde faith' because I doubt anyone will care.

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To start my rant of inspiration<(I hope). I will guess explain myself. I for one do not care about magic or psi. Now you might be thinking what? Hes posted a topic about proof and he not gonna really care when we give it to him. NO that's wrong I will be so happy and enjoyed. Hey I might even give it a shot, just to feel what its like. See the problem is you people have turned magic and psi a little more on a religious side. yep that's right you turned it into a religion. How have you done this? Easy its because none of you has shown the proof its real. Without this proof you turned it into a belief. Yep, that's right "phase 2". But wait your now saying you don't think its real but know its real. "phase 3". Although I put the system up there its not perfect. "phase 2" and "phase 3" are very close to the same. The fact of the matter is you can know something but yet not have any proof to back yourself with.
Now "phase 4" This is the part we decided to stop at. If anyone ever says the words "It is real or its real" They must of have proof. If they don't its obvious that they only "know" or "think" its real. If you can say "Its real" Then you must have proof.

Again, you have no right to tell any of us how we should go about believing this  stuff. Going by this is probably going to stump a lot of our progression anyway. A lot of times, you can't perform magick with a skeptical mind. You have to BELIEVE that it's true for it to happen.

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Please don't post anything unnecessary.

If You have proof put it here so anytime you get asked to  "prove it". Just send them right here.

If any errors show up or think something should be changed to better itself. Please MSG me

So this is the place to show it. Show me and yourself and others the proof. Proof can be discredited even in videos but that does not matter. I ask for you, the people to make your own real videos to show proof and keep them coming.


No one can give you your 'undeniable proof' on the net, buddy. And hey, no body has to.

But here's what I have to say:

Next time you get asked for proof from ShadowX, or any other person that randomly DEMANDS proof, dont feel compelled to make videos just to get another person to believe. Its not necessary, and you'll be better off not wasting your time.

~ `Naz


ďI am not this hair, I am not this skin, I am the soul that lives within.Ē

August 11, 2006, 03:16:46 PM
Reply #4

kakkarot

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*pats Naz on the back*

you said just a little less than what i was gonna say: If I spent all my time trying to "prove" metaphysics is real to a bunch of whiny little kids over the internet who think that I'm obligated to "move heaven and earth or else they won't believe magic is real", hell no. I've got my time full doing other things that I enjoy doing, like playing video games :P (yes i practice too, just not as much as i used to, and i guess not as much as others here practice :)) and I'm not about to waste my life away trying to give proof to people who will never accept it even if I could drop their house down around their ears.

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Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 11, 2006, 04:36:29 PM
Reply #5

Shadowx089

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Hmmm, well ShadowX, I knew this type of post was coming from you for a long time now, so I decided that I would comment.  First off, you seem to be under the delusion that people in this community have to prove their own experiences to you. To make it easy for you, Im going to tell you right now ; they dont. We have many hard working, dedicated people to this site that have come together to _GUIDE_ many aspiring occultists. Nobody is here to 'prove' any of their experiences to anyone else in this community --- and again, much less you. What IF other people in the real world want to see proof? Well, nobody HAS to show THEM proof either.

And I think its completely disrespectful for you to come here, to a site where people believe in the metaphysics, and demand proof. Really, I do. We all believe in this stuff, we dont NEED proof. When we talk about the metaphysics in the chats, we do so ALREADY BELIEVING that the stuff is real. We all know it is. Why would we be here if we didn't? We, as the members, are here to further our studies, and it we would make no progression if we sat there and debated whether the stuff we're trying to learn is REAL or not. We KNOW it is, and we KNOW it is, whether it follows your guidelines or not. So please, dont try to debate with anyone with whether the metaphysics is real. It is, and if you dont like what we have to say, you are always free to leave. Remember; nobody is holding you back.

You completely failed to see the point I was trying to show you. Frankly you should of just kept that all to yourself. This is not a begging post or anything....idk care...You all seem to be stuck in Limbo. So far the only person you seem to even comprehend what i said was "Wil".  Prophecy...well hes just prophecy.  :P

I think your just trying to pick a fight and trying to use any past events that happen in the chat already against me.

Ever heard of "If you got nothing good to say DON'T say anything at all"?

Now that's over with.  A little info from the mighty wiki of doom!

Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the nature of the world. It is the study of being or reality.[1] It answers questions such as: What is real? Is it natural or supernatural?

A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into what categories of things are in the world and what relations these things bear to one another. The metaphysician also attempts to clarify the notions by which people understand the world, including existence, objecthood, property, space, time, causality, and possibility.

More recently, the term "metaphysics" has also been used to refer to "subjects which are beyond the physical world". A "metaphysical bookstore," for instance, is not one that sells books on ontology, but rather one that sells books on spirits, faith healing, crystal power, occultism, and other such topics. This meaning is not recognized in academic philosophy

As you and any other sane people should be able to understand..."Metaphysics" Falls in a huge category...its basically a word that combines all the other topics. Who ever thought of that that was just making things more complicated.

Anyway, The purpose of this topic was for what can be proven.    Even Plato would of understood that. heh

Again, This is suppost to be a topic of proof/test or anything close to proof.   There has been many kinds of proof I just wanted to finally put it all in one place.


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If nothing existed but the Source and the Source - Created everything - Is the Creation from the Source? - If the Creation can behold intelligence - Then does the Source also have intelligence? - After all - The Source was far more than its Creation.

August 11, 2006, 06:01:46 PM
Reply #6

Forg

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I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for proof but I do think it's not such a grand way to go about your studies. Everyone comes across their doubts and I can say for certain that I have doubted the existance of some of these abilities or what-have-you. I don't particularly believe every aspect to be seen, as some have stated. And I still have my doubts in areas. The proof I can provide would, for the most part, seem irrelivant to anyone else, as most is derived by personal experience. I could argue until I'm blue in the face, but frankly, I don't have the sources, or the magical videos that are in every way solid.

I see people come on and ask for proof consistantly, but the fact of the matter is, most who come alooking are much to biased to be able to accept the proof shown to them. And those who aren't will tend toward accepting proof of the littlest value (I used value loosely of course). I say that one should go experience it themselves, or stick with the tiny bits of proof they can find that they are able to wrap their minds around. If that isn't good enough...then move on. It's your own duty to discover what you think is true or untrue. We'll try to help. I mostly just have experience on my side so I leave it to you to try the things I suggest. I wish it were another way, but it isn't. At least in my case.

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If you can't prove it. Then do not say its real. Just say I know its possible.Then merely just let them wonder. Let that be the end. But remember the goal is to be able to prove it.

Perhapse it is real to us, but by saying it is, is that not stating that it is possible. There is no goal to be able to prove anything but to myself. I don't practice what I do for fancy parlor tricks or to preach how godly one could be, in fact, most that I used to do of that nature I lost intrest in. That's the nature of the game, and I don't see it as helpful to go about doing it otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 06:05:21 PM by Forg »
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

August 11, 2006, 06:26:02 PM
Reply #7

Big Boss

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this is where I'm kindof at a split opinion. I've been coming here like many of you since the place started, and it's always been the same thing, "show some proof!" "no, I don't have to. I'm above that." I always got this elitist feeling that everyone is so much better than your average schmoe, that they feel it's not worth their time. Granted, that's a bit of an overexaggeration in itself. But really, for five years the only "proof" to come out in veritas are a few video's of sykodragon doing PK. (they were down last time I check as well.) I don't think everyone needs go out spewing "proof" but I think there is inspirational value in them as well, something that might be useful to the hesitant mage or psion. what would really be the downside to giving a little evidence anyway? sure they'll be nitpicked and insulted and lots of people won't believe them, but even that can be proof to the person who made the video. and for people who will be somewhat robbed of the experience of learning for themselves, do you think it's really that much of a loss? if any at all? I think it would be quite rewarding to see someone say, slide a pencil across a table, and then I myself work up to that, cause then I'll know that I'm not any weaker or less substantial than the person who showed me. if I just learned to do it myself I'll probably become pretty arrogant about my abilities (as useless as they are, admittedly, when it comes to sliding pencils.) and then I'll brag about it and sound like some idiot, and then I may realize that whatever I did was a fluke, or maybe I have an off day and start to doubt myself. then where do I turn? do I look for inspiration, or do I sit there and repeat my self destructive cycle of doubt?

anyway, I don't think there is harm in posting "proof," videos, or whatever they might be.
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August 11, 2006, 08:17:54 PM
Reply #8

`Nazukarr

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You completely failed to see the point I was trying to show you. Frankly you should of just kept that all to yourself. This is not a begging post or anything....idk care...You all seem to be stuck in Limbo.

No, I really dont know what the point of this thread was. I honestly didn't see anything besides "blah blah blah, show me your powarz, blah blah blah, or you are fake." And from what kakkarot had said, I'm sure I'm not the only one that got this impression. But really, if this ISN'T a begging post what is this? The whole time you were urging us to show everyone our findings because you thought that our teachers HAVE to prove everything to their students before actually teaching.
Unfortunately, thats not how it works. (using your own emphasis against ya :))

Teachers dont go to potential students and beg to teach them. Students go to TEACHERS and ask to learn under them. Therefore, the teacher doesn't have to prove anything to the students. Its a take it or leave it type of thing.

Oh, and please do tell me, how are we in a limbo?


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So far the only person you seem to even comprehend what i said was "Wil".  Prophecy...well hes just prophecy.

I hope you realize that both of them said what I had to say, except in a more polite manner, and their own added information. Nobody has to show you anything.

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I think your just trying to pick a fight and trying to use any past events that happen in the chat already against me.

I don't really think its much fun to pick fights with anyone, and thats not what Im trying to do if thats what you think. I will, however, speak my mind about stuff like this.

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Ever heard of "If you got nothing good to say DON'T say anything at all"?

Have you? How was anything that you posted in this thread 'good'?


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this is where I'm kindof at a split opinion. I've been coming here like many of you since the place started, and it's always been the same thing, "show some proof!" "no, I don't have to. I'm above that." I always got this elitist feeling that everyone is so much better than your average schmoe, that they feel it's not worth their time. Granted, that's a bit of an overexaggeration in itself.

No, its not like that at all. People dont want to show anyone proof because its a waste of time. The purpose of this site is to discuss, study, teach, and learn about the metaphysics. We already believe in this stuff, and it wouldn't do anybody any good by providing proof. Forg also pointed out that some people wont believe 'proof' even if they see it. So why should it be provided? Nobody at this community is here to prove anything to anyone. People are here to teach, and learn.

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I don't think everyone needs go out spewing "proof" but I think there is inspirational value in them as well, something that might be useful to the hesitant mage or psion. what would really be the downside to giving a little evidence anyway? sure they'll be nitpicked and insulted and lots of people won't believe them, but even that can be proof to the person who made the video. and for people who will be somewhat robbed of the experience of learning for themselves, do you think it's really that much of a loss? if any at all? I think it would be quite rewarding to see someone say, slide a pencil across a table, and then I myself work up to that, cause then I'll know that I'm not any weaker or less substantial than the person who showed me. if I just learned to do it myself I'll probably become pretty arrogant about my abilities (as useless as they are, admittedly, when it comes to sliding pencils.) and then I'll brag about it and sound like some idiot, and then I may realize that whatever I did was a fluke, or maybe I have an off day and start to doubt myself. then where do I turn? do I look for inspiration, or do I sit there and repeat my self destructive cycle of doubt?

anyway, I don't think there is harm in posting "proof," videos, or whatever they might be.

Its not that there's a 'loss' towards having videos and whatnot, but people either dont have enough time to spend on 'proving' the metaphysics to people, or they just dont want to. Its their right to do whatever they want with their abilities anyways.

 
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August 11, 2006, 08:22:22 PM
Reply #9

kakkarot

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For those who say they can prove it but say they do not need to prove it to you. Then don't even bother saying its real. Just completely ignore the question being put out there. (put up or shut up) 
so, by extension, every time we say anything on the net regarding metaphysics we have to accompany it by a metaphysical working to prove that what we said is real?

also, it's not always about whether we "have to" show proof, sometimes it's about whether we can show proof (ever tried to convince someone over the net that psychokinesis is real by showing them a vid, or even doing it on webcam? they just point out how it could be faked), and sometimes it's about whether the other person is willing to accept it or just decline everything (i've told a certain people in the chat to read Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain to prove that psi has been proven real via many scientific studies, yet he still hasn't bothered looking for the book and still makes the claim that psi isn't real and still demands proof because we still tell him it's real).

the idea for this thread may be based on good intentions, but the people you usually see us telling "we don't have to show you proof" are the ones who are generally claiming all sorts of things themselves and then declaring that we "have to" prove them wrong, yet are unwilling to accept anything as proof (or, they fail to provide any criteria for us to even attempt to fit some sort of metaphysical working to what they'd accept as proof). It's the ones who are being dicks about it that we in the chat get uppity about; the ones who are polite and /ask/ are usually the ones for whom someone in the chat makes an effort to provide proof for. but even so, what kind of *proof* is acceptable over the internet?

and lastly, for those who are on the chat claiming that we *have to* prove anything to them, I ask you this: what's so great about you that we have to do your work for you? You want proof, find it yourself. We did. If a person really wants to know if something is real or not, they should seek for themself rather than looking to others for spoon-feeding.


~kakkarot
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August 11, 2006, 09:43:32 PM
Reply #10

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No, its not like that at all. People dont want to show anyone proof because its a waste of time.

that's a double edged sword. someone who wants to learn, but doubts themselves, may find inspiration. But someone who is looking for trouble will stay skeptical til the day they die. you aren't going to drive people away with "proof" and you may possibly help someone be more interested. I don't see a reason not to show the world. opening up new interests to people tends to make you happy. sports people do it, martial artists do it, dancers and singers do it, but us metaphysics people, we're too cool.
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August 12, 2006, 02:11:46 AM
Reply #11

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If you want proof, look for something rigorous.  As for demonstrations, you need to understand both the inadequacy of demonstrations over the internet, and the complex psychology involved with demonstrations.

First, demonstrations over the internet, of the type that can be distributed to a wide audience, essentially consist of videos, and no legitimate video from a personal camera is ever going to look better than the special effects in a blockbuster movie, and thus, does not constitute "proof".  It can only really serve as a "demonstration" which is believed or not based on the word of the presenter.

Second, demonstrations are fairly ineffective for those who most adamantly disbelieve.  I suggest reading up on the concept of cognitive dissonance.  When faced with something which contradicts deeply held beliefs, people are faced with much discomfort, and the resolution of that discomfort can only occur by changing those deeply held beliefs (which is very difficult), or by finding a way to interpret or explain away the new information which contradicts this.  People are not the rational beings they think they are.  People are human.  And as humans, they have a strong tendency to react to new contradictory information with cognitive dissonance.  Because of this, even very good demonstrations are not as effective as you might imagine.

So I certainly have no objection to demonstrations, but they aren't the proof you think they are, and they don't do as much as you think they do.

There are two very different paths one can follow when attempting to control something in psi:

1.  It is real.  (This is an objective event, and has nothing to do with ones opinion.)
2.  I wonder if it is real.
3.  I questioningly try it.
4.  I probably don't succeed.

1.  It is real.
2.  I expect it to work.
3.  I observe it working.
4.  I know that it's real.

What Prophecy describes above about "faith" as an enabling action which must be learned and controlled before success certainly has its truth (although I prefer to call it an "inner expectation").

People often ask, "How am I supposed to expect it to work before I know it will work?"  The answer is always "self-control".  It is not correct to try to observe it working, because you are not observing something, you are controlling something.  You don't observe the effect before you create it via your expectation, so the expectation must precede the observation-based knowing.  This path is key to the act of influencing things in the arts, and thus, gaining the ability to approach a problem in this manner is a key part of learning psi.

The end result is that people obtain legitimate proof by doing, and they get to this step by self-control.
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August 12, 2006, 10:00:16 AM
Reply #12

`Nazukarr

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that's a double edged sword. someone who wants to learn, but doubts themselves, may find inspiration. But someone who is looking for trouble will stay skeptical til the day they die. you aren't going to drive people away with "proof" and you may possibly help someone be more interested. I don't see a reason not to show the world. opening up new interests to people tends to make you happy. sports people do it, martial artists do it, dancers and singers do it, but us metaphysics people, we're too cool.

Why are you not getting anything I am saying? Veritas isn't out there to attract new people, its not here to 'inspire' people by showing off.

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Welcome to the Veritas Society, a community which focuses on discussing, studying, teaching, and learning the metaphysical arts. For an overview of the features at Veritas and to learn how to begin study in the arts, read how to start.

Where on there do you see the word inspiration? Veritas isn't here to inspire people, its here to guide people in their metaphysical studies. Inspiration to study may come at one point, but not by seeing a video.

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Inspire:    1.  To affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence.
   2. To fill with enlivening or exalting emotion: hymns that inspire the congregation; an artist who was inspired by Impressionism.
   3.
         1. To stimulate to action; motivate: a sales force that was inspired by the prospect of a bonus.
         2. To affect or touch: The falling leaves inspired her with sadness.
   4. To draw forth; elicit or arouse: a teacher who inspired admiration and respect.
   5. To be the cause or source of; bring about: an invention that inspired many imitations.
   6. To draw in (air) by inhaling.
   7. Archaic.
         1. To breathe on.
         2. To breathe life into.

Sorry, we cant 'inspire' people with videos.

And then, if people dont want to do it, they dont have to. If you think inspiring people is so important, you should go out and do it individually.

Because it's not the community's job.
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August 12, 2006, 02:45:51 PM
Reply #13

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The problem with proof is that what you (as a sceptical non- practitioner) demand is a one off performance of something external, something like a psi wheel or someone telling you what you are thinking, and if we canít provide it you say we have no proof.


But proof for us is not just a one shot thing, it is years of experience, much of itís internal and subjective and canít just be slapped up on the internet to sate sceptics, and even the thing we can do to show you are proof to us because we can reproduce them repeatedly, they might not always work but we know when we do them.


For example, I can sometime cause it to rain over my house, it doesnít always work but it dose most of the time. To you this wonít be proof, I canít point to a one off rain storm and say ĎI did that thereís you proof,í but years of doing it repeatedly is proof to me.


What Iím trying to say is that there a difference between the proof that we have for our selves and the proof we can give to a sceptic.

To put it in your terminology, were all in stage 4 but we canít make you be in the same stage without going through what we have. 


I apologies for the lack of clarity, I donít think Iím really getting across what I what to say very well. so I'm just going to sum it up by saying, We have proof we just can't give it to you.

August 12, 2006, 04:10:26 PM
Reply #14

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Veritas isn't out there to attract new people
In the Main Hall we've been talking about the idea of a Veritas Wikipedia entry. I find your statement to be contradictory to the idea of a forum that gladly welcomes new people to the OEC, offers a mentoring program, and who is actively seeking new ways to promote its existance and draw people to it.

Quote from: Nazukarr
Veritas isn't here to inspire people, its here to guide people in their metaphysical studies. Inspiration to study may come at one point
Again I disagree. Yes, Veritas is here to provide people with a guide to their studies, but the idea that it is not here also to inspire people. I'm not sure why the two concepts are being portrayed, if only slightly, as mutually exclusive, when logically speaking the best education and learning experience comes when they are mutually inclusive.

Maybe we can't inspire them with videos or records that constitute proof. But that doesn't rule out inspiration altogether. We should be working together to inspire one another, not hoping that it comes. Inspiration has to be sought to be found, and I find it all the time in so many ways.
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