Author Topic: Brainstorming about testing the nature of energy  (Read 5673 times)

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July 22, 2006, 12:25:51 PM
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kobok

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There have been many discussions in the last few months, both on the forums and on the chat, about testing the nature of energy.  There has been talk about testing the nature of energy as typically used in chi versus energy as typically used in psi.  There have been proposals of testing the nature of energy and constructs formed via different methods.  And there have been proposals about testing the interaction of energy under various conditions.

So I want to consolidate these various ideas (and others) into one coherent brainstorming thread.  So what do you feel are the outstanding issues about the nature of energy that you'd like to see tested?

I'd also like this thread to contain brainstorming about how to test the ideas given.  If you aren't sure how to test your idea, you can propose it anyway, and others will discuss the idea, and we'll see if we can find a way to rigorously test them.
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July 22, 2006, 12:34:26 PM
Reply #1

freefallingdot

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In my opinion, the basis of energy being different is flawed in the fact it has to have a base to work off of.  What I mean is that it would be highly improbable for many different types of energy to pop up at different times accounting for different qualities.  At least, not without something to build off of.  I believe that, yes there are different types of energy, but that the only reason they are seperate is because we seperate them in the conceptual or intellectual plane, whichever you prefer.  While I don't know how to test this theory, I am open to criticism of the basis of my theory.
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July 22, 2006, 12:37:44 PM
Reply #2

Vox Nocti

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As you may or may not now I posted an article on this site about some experiments I ran. Now, although there has been some (grounded) critcism on it, I think it might be a good idea to post it again, if anything to spice up discussion.

If you guys agree on that, let me know, and I'll re-post it.

~Vox
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July 22, 2006, 01:23:56 PM
Reply #3

Zake

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Are you referring to the experiments with Darkduck, vox?  Or something else?

One obvious place to start with the nature of this stuff we (erroniously enough) call "energy" is to figure out whether or not it has any physical existence (as opposed to metaphysical existence, or being imaginary).  It seems unlikely that it would have a distinct physical existence, from what we know of it, but not necessarily impossible (skills such as telepathy and telekinesis which travel arbitrary distances and through time and etc may not necessarily be composed of energy).  If it exists metaphysically, we should figure out what exactly that means, and why metaphysical stuff seems to be able to do stuff that physical stuff can't (for example, why its so easy to manipulate it mentally).  And last of all, one can't at this point rule out the possibility that this "energy" stuff is just some imaginary prop which makes metaphysical skills work better- a form of ritual, essentially.

A second, and related, point of study would be to figure out how this "energy" stuff relates to the rest of our theories of how metaphysical skills work (such as future selection, which seems to propose a theory of psi which doesn't require the existence or use of "energy" at all).

For now, I'll leave open the question of how to test such things, because I don't have my glasses at the moment and its hard to type and see the screen... and because I hardly have any idea at this moment, either.  Hurrah for a new and (hopefully) interesting forum, btw :D.
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July 23, 2006, 01:23:01 AM
Reply #4

kobok

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(such as future selection, which seems to propose a theory of psi which doesn't require the existence or use of "energy" at all).

Within the future selection model, energy is still present, it is simply thought of as what powers the bringing about of the intent.  This doesn't necessarily require consideration of a spatially present energy, but non-spatially speaking the energy has the same properties.

In my opinion, the basis of energy being different is flawed in the fact it has to have a base to work off of.  What I mean is that it would be highly improbable for many different types of energy to pop up at different times accounting for different qualities.  At least, not without something to build off of.  I believe that, yes there are different types of energy, but that the only reason they are seperate is because we seperate them in the conceptual or intellectual plane, whichever you prefer.  While I don't know how to test this theory, I am open to criticism of the basis of my theory.

I'd say that one way to test this is to attempt to falsify the theory that energies are "different".  However, to do this, we need to have a specific claim to work with.  So someone who supports the notion that psi and chi are different energies should think about what this actually means.  If they are different, what are the actual consequences of this difference?

Does it mean that one can do things that the other can't?  If so, what?

What other things make them different in practical terms?  (It is best if this is in terms of the effects of the energies rather than the "feel" or "impression" of the energies.)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 01:28:50 AM by kobok »
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July 24, 2006, 01:01:46 PM
Reply #5

Felidae

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My suggestion would be that:

a. Tomekeepers library of knowledge site, having one of the more extensive lists of multiple energy types be used for initial testing. 'Healing' would seem to correlate well enough with gi kong and similair, although they are are used for other purposes they do seem to rely on a 'life' type of energy.

b. Simple constructs, or however you wish to term an energetic formation of that type of energy if you do not like the term construct to be applied to certain types of energy,
would make an ideal target for initial testing of interactions by adding the type of energy one wishes to test interactions with to the construct.

c. The testing should use a random number generator with a range of 0-2, assigning to each number an action such as 'do nothing' in order to test for natural sorts of changes if any present in the energy with no more external influence than sensing it, 'add more energy of same type' to test similair and the other number being 'add <insert energy being tested here>. This may also help avoiding preconceptions in scanners.

d. To further avoid preconceptions in scanners, I would reccomend that every other run be a 'placebo run' wherin no change be made to the energy... it would be best if a way could be devised to make this double blind, but I cannot presently think of a way to do this and would like to ask if anyone has any idea of how this could be done.

Also, while not a suggestion in itself I would like to participate in these experiments as a scanner, manipulator or both at different times. I have experience with a variety of energy types, including psi, the energies associated with what are called on the Lok twilight, minor experience with death essence and some others.

Sorry for the possibly disjointed nature of this post.


July 27, 2006, 07:59:44 PM
Reply #6

NathanE

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I really shouldn't jump into this... I know I will regret this but what the heck. Well theoretically every energy is the same just with a certian intent to it which can be changed. Yes in a way you can change the basis of the energy thoughtform for so called for healing whatever. But you should treat it more like a blank peice of paper banishing all preconceptions of what the energy is. Then you would have clean slate that means it would take mabye longer but with the right intent and enough will you could do the same thing but better.
Chance is a word void of sense; nothing can exist without a cause. ~Voltaire

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August 02, 2006, 10:04:30 AM
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DownRodeo

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A good idea/place to start that I think might inspire something else from some of you guys and gals! : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5192744.stm
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 11:56:25 AM by DownRodeo »
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August 03, 2006, 08:22:54 AM
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Daska_123

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A'ight well now to add my thoughts. To me it seems like psi chi and magick use different energy. I have practiced a little in all categories so meh. But I beleive that every thing we do within psi, chi and magick or sometimes what we do without using psi/chi/magick (which I shall now use pcm :P )  also sometimes effects it. As for the nature of these energies too me it seems different. But... *cuts off* I'll update this later when I find the last bit of info I need.
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August 04, 2006, 04:47:38 AM
Reply #9

NathanE

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actually most big news corperations have stories like that on it. We "had" a UFO summener so called live in down town grand rapids till he up a dissapered. Other then that notice how the media shows stuff like this when no ones paying attention :-P
Chance is a word void of sense; nothing can exist without a cause. ~Voltaire

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August 04, 2006, 07:07:18 AM
Reply #10

Emira

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In my understanding, chi is supposed to effect things within the body whereas psi is used to effect things outside one's person.  Working under that assumption I would suggest testing effects each type of energy is said to posses against that of the other.  For example, take a person that works with psi and have them attempt to influence a random number generator then take someone who works with chi and give them the same test.  Another option may be to test body temperatures of people as they work with both energy types (I remember reading an article about how using chi in meditation can raise or lower the body temperature.)  In essence, take the things one type of energy is supposed to be able to do and see if another type can produce the same results.

My scenario may not be as conclusive to many occultist on this subject as it would only show a correlation between energy types and would not be able to give a definitive yes or no answer.  However, I feel that using cases where there is a human scanner offers to much room for error.  The scanner may be biased or just not as good as they claim.  Using machines to test the effects of a certain type of energy allows for more control in the experiment and reduces the chance for human error.
“The purpose of all the major religious traditions is not to construct big temples on the outside, but to create temples of goodness and compassion inside, in our hearts.” –The 14th Dali Llama

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August 19, 2006, 11:22:29 PM
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Razeroth

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In my understanding of the systems, magic and psionics are similar but different.  I as of yet have no experience when it comes to chi, so I cannot say whether or not I think that it is similar.  Magic seems to operate on a more complex scale than psionics as it uses more systems of control, such as rituals, sigils, stances, and outside forces.  But psionics seems to manipulate "energy" through the use of the mind alone.  Although, magic can be operated in a similar fashion, it is often not as effective as using another system.  I would suggest that psionics would be more limited than magic because it isn't as specialized and as of right now all the things that can be done using psionics can be done using magic, and I am nearly sure of the converse.  But while psionics is more limited because it is simpler, this could actually be an advantage in some cases, which would probably make psionics and magic equal, yet different systems of metaphysical manipulation.  As to what makes psionics and magic work, I would say that the answer would be the subconscious in both cases, however I, and I doubt anyone else, knows exactly what makes the subconscious able to manipulate the "fabric" of reality so easily and effectively.

-Razeroth

EDIT:  Here I meant to say that I have no experience as of yet in CHI, not psi.  I do have experience in psionics and magic, just not chi.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 08:10:20 PM by Razeroth »
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