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July 19, 2006, 12:05:44 AM
Reply #15

solstice

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Um... I was not simply talking about just evocation.  The magickal act of using spirits for ANY purpose is not psychic in itself -- I already explained why, however, you chose to see that how want.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
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July 19, 2006, 12:44:01 AM
Reply #16

kobok

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The magickal act of using spirits for ANY purpose is not psychic in itself -- I already explained why, however, you chose to see that how want.

How is this "using" you refer to different from "asking", "suggesting", or "manipulating"?  The last three can of course all be achieved with telepathy.
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July 19, 2006, 08:35:42 PM
Reply #17

solstice

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Okay, I replied to quickly to that last time.  I did not see your posts until late, anyways.

Perhaps you are missing the point.  Or I did not explain well, but you do not need to take just my word.
You are acting under the assumtion that telepathy somehow is responcible for all of the acts/consequences of summoning spirits and/or using them to achieve an end, right?  Pretending you are completely right for the moment; telepathy is defined as "[psychic] communication between minds".  Now, when I said I could do telepathy all day and night, how is doing that going to make it rain, for example; whos mind do I need to contact?  There is a THIRD party involed which you are overlooking -- constructs or not, you dont just ask call a soul and then suddenly everything happens instantly; the third party has to carry out the wishes, none the less.
This means that using spiritual evokation, you are not JUST using telepathy all over the place and hoping forsomething to happen, you are placing your FAITH in a power that exists seperate from your own abilities.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 19, 2006, 09:44:43 PM
Reply #18

Zake

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Indeed; evocation in this view revolves around contacting the "mind" of a spirit and communicating to it a command (and/or request, suggestion, etc), which under the definition solstice has put down means that it effectively constitutes (on the part of the magician) a use of telepathy.  Can both sides agree, then, that evocation uses telepathy to contact entities and request/force them to perform a certain task?  I'm not sure where faith comes in, solstice.

It is true, of course, that once the magician has (telepathically) contacted the spirit and sent it to do a certain task or whatever, the spirit then puts its own means into use to manifest the end; these means may or may not be analogous to those of psi, who really knows- this may be solstice's point.  Regardless of that, however, the only metaphysical skill being used by the magician him/her-self in that instance is essentially a form of telepathy.

(Its possible, of course, that the skill of dealing with spiritual entities is different from telepathy in meaningful ways (conceptual plane versus the spiritual plane?)- although, even if this wasn't a skill used by psions, it wouldn't even then be necessarily outside of the paradigm of psionic skills- particularly given the similarities between all of the metaphysical arts).
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July 19, 2006, 10:32:41 PM
Reply #19

solstice

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My point is that the end result is not the result of some tedious psychic act on the magician's end.  By that definition of how telepathy works, this can not possibly include how such acts are carried out, unless the soul/entity does not actually exist.
Zake, faith has everything to do with magick.  This is a fundemental for all magickal practitioners; your belief and your investment in something greater than yourself.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 19, 2006, 11:53:52 PM
Reply #20

Zake

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My point is that the end result is not the result of some tedious psychic act on the magician's end.  By that definition of how telepathy works, this can not possibly include how such acts are carried out, unless the soul/entity does not actually exist.

But in evocation, the magician is not doing the end result; he's only doing the evocation itself.  And that evocation is telepathic, by the definitions we've discussed here, apparently.  So, in terms of the magician's actions, evocation is not fundamentally different than psi.

Zake, faith has everything to do with magick.  This is a fundemental for all magickal practitioners; your belief and your investment in something greater than yourself.

There is, indeed, an element of "faith"- faith in that a given operation will work.  What I meant by "I don't see where faith comes in" is that I don't see how this would relate to a difference, because "faith" in this sense applies equally to psi- most authorities on psi I've seen count "expectation that it will work" as one of the factors in any psionic act.

On the other hand, I would contradict you in that "investment in something greater than yourself" is at all a necessary component of magic.  Veritas is sheltered, I suppose, in that most of the magic discussed here is of the Hermetic variety which Prophecy has popularized, which indeed does have an element of faith in a "greater [God/Truth/Existence/Being/Axiom/Prime Mover/Fundamental Cause/Thingy]."  However, consider (for example) chaos magic, which doesn't admit to the validity of anything which isn't practical, nor any fundamental purpose or "great work" sort of ideal.  Magic has no more inherent philosophical or spiritual baggage than psi does.  ...This is a side-track, however.  Don't let it disrupt the rest of the discussion.
Act; for the universe will never forget your movement, nor will it ever forgive your stillness.

July 20, 2006, 12:04:26 AM
Reply #21

solstice

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You do not have to have a theologan to be faithful; if you believe that magick works, then you have said faith, no matter how you believe it to manifest.  The beauty part of magick (and psychic abilities) is that you do not have to understand how it works to be able to achieve great things.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory