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July 12, 2006, 03:06:32 AM
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A Nobody

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What is the difference between magic and psi since both of them are control by ones own WILL? Quite frankly i am confused.

July 12, 2006, 03:37:38 AM
Reply #1

kobok

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What is the difference between magic and psi since both of them are control by ones own WILL? Quite frankly i am confused.

At the fundamental core, nothing.  They are identical cakes with different flavored frosting.  Think of them as you would two different martial arts styles.  You use the same hands, the same feet, and achieve a similar purpose, but you have slightly different movements, slightly different philosophies, and so forth.

Here's an article briefly comparing the arts:  http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/4856.0
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July 12, 2006, 07:44:26 AM
Reply #2

zaigon

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I once asked this question to Kobok *point up*. He pretty much compared it to martial arts/ a battle. He said that you could punch at the target, kick the target, or chop at the target, but in the end you do the same thing, cause pain to the target (or something along those lines) So you could use Chi, Psi, or Magic and you will get pretty much the same end point, it is just how the rituals and stuff are executed that are different.
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July 12, 2006, 09:46:10 AM
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solstice

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At the fundamental core, nothing.
That is not completely true.  In spiritual evokation, spirits and the magician are NOT the same entity.  When a magician emplys the use the such spirits, the person is not doing all the work.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
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July 13, 2006, 12:24:00 AM
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kobok

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At the fundamental core, nothing.
That is not completely true.  In spiritual evokation, spirits and the magician are NOT the same entity.  When a magician emplys the use the such spirits, the person is not doing all the work.

And if I telepathically ask you to slide a paperclip across the table, and you do it, then I'm not doing all the work either.  :)
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July 13, 2006, 12:18:37 PM
Reply #5

solstice

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That hardly makes sense, unless you think someone else is moving the paperclip.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 13, 2006, 02:44:03 PM
Reply #6

cyanide

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solstice, that's what he said. telepathically making someone else move a paperclip.

it's a slight difference. the end results are nearly the same, the amount of training needed are nearly the same...
but psionics takes short bursts of focus and energy, trying to influence stuff directly, whereas magick involves gradually causing a change by shifting chances. chi is basically the body's energy, used in martial arts and spiritual healing mostly.

July 13, 2006, 02:47:54 PM
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solstice

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So... that is why magick and psychism is not all the same thing.  That abalogy did not really illustrate other wise.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 14, 2006, 12:25:42 AM
Reply #8

kobok

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So... that is why magick and psychism is not all the same thing.  That abalogy did not really illustrate other wise.

Think about what is really happening when a magician asks a spirit to do a task.  There are two explanations for a successful result:

1.  The spirit is not there beforehand, and is simply a construct created by the process of the task.  In this case there are better words the magician could be using to describe this event, and the language of evoking a spirit is a misnomer.

2.  The spirit is communicated with (this is telepathy), and it is asked (or coerced) to perform a task.

Both of these exist in psi, it's just that no one uses the word "evoke".

Quote from: cyanide
psionics takes short bursts of focus and energy, trying to influence stuff directly, whereas magick involves gradually causing a change by shifting chances

It is true that introductory exercises in psi focus more on direct influence, while introductory exercises in magick focus more on gradual shifts.  But it is also true that psi includes gradual shifting of chances, and magick includes more direct influences.  This is a difference of preference and style more than a difference in scope.
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July 14, 2006, 12:03:02 PM
Reply #9

solstice

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That is why magick can not be assumed to be the same as psyychic ability.  Using telepathy does NOT get trhe results alone, the act of using that to get the assistance of the spirit, whom then carries out the request is really what the magick aspect does -- the magician is not the one who did the work, it was the "external force".
You can not presume to know that all spirits are contructs.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 14, 2006, 07:59:53 PM
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TakeV

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Oh god, if you're going with that argument, than evocation doesn't get the job done alone either.

July 15, 2006, 09:42:48 AM
Reply #11

solstice

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Evocation relies on more than one mechanism for its result, not just one, as Kobok said in his previous post.  This process is intrinsic, so you do not get one end without the other.  Hence, why you can not just say it is all done by the will of the magician.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 15, 2006, 09:53:24 AM
Reply #12

TakeV

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And going back to telepathy, same thing!

July 15, 2006, 10:17:49 AM
Reply #13

solstice

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That's not the same thing.  The telepathy is not the mechanism behind the end result.  I can do telepathy all day, and that is not going to bring down mountains or rain.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

July 16, 2006, 12:56:05 AM
Reply #14

kobok

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That's not the same thing.  The telepathy is not the mechanism behind the end result.  I can do telepathy all day, and that is not going to bring down mountains or rain.

Uhm.  Maybe you can tell us exactly what you think evocation is?  (This is not a question to be resolved with dictionary.com.  I mean, tell us what practical and specific set of steps you think constitutes evocation.)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 12:58:29 AM by kobok »
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