Author Topic: Empty Force - Kong Jing  (Read 9217 times)

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June 03, 2005, 08:18:35 AM
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What is the ultimate martial art technique? Is it joint locking? Pressure-point strikes? Is it the perfection of an aerial kick that smashes a record-breaking number of boards?
Probably not. Most martial arts authorities agree that any technique which doesn't require physical contact with a target can be a highly rated martial art technique. In Chinese martial arts one of the most difficult and revered is called kong jing (empty force), and it directly relates to chi (internal power) development.
Empty force describes the ability of the xin-i (mind - and intention - boxing) practitioner to expel chi energy without making physical contact with a target. This can only be accomplished with a background of training in meditation, chi concentration, and with a knowledge of how to unite the body into a single, powerful unit.

Origins

Many past martial artists unknowingly developed empty force and became famous for their superior fighting prowess. For instance, Yang Pan-hou, who died in 1881, was the son of tai chi chuan's founder, Yang Lu-chan. He once used empty force to counterattack an opponent who tried to attack him from the rear. Yang simply arched his back and set his opponent flying backward without even touching him.

Another famous Chinese martial artist who had access to empty force was Kuo Yun-shen. He taught hsing-i to Wang Xiang-zai, who in turn made martial art history with his da cheng quan (also known as i quan). Kuo could throw would-be assailants backward by snapping his shoulder in their direction, long before any physical contact was made. Not to be left out, China's other famous internal system, pa kua, had a renowned expert who also possessed empty force - Tung Hai-chuan. His empty force palm technique was the equivalent of no-hands judo.

Morihei Uyeshiba, the founder of aikido, has many accounts written about him which describe his ability to throw people without touching them. However, the first person to actually teach empty force as an important segment of a martial art system was Peng-Si Yu (1902-1983), a Shanghai medical doctor and the best-known student of Wang Xiang-zai. Yu was the only disciple of Wang to develop empty force and became famous throughout China for his martial arts expertise. Before coming to the U.S. in 1980, Yu received his Western medical degree in Germany before World War II, and was a medical professor at the University of Shanghai. He taught serious martial art students at his home in Shanghai in his spare time.

Yu took Wang Xiang-zai's da cheng quan system one step further by adding Tibetan Buddhist meditation practices that eventually brought students' chi down below the navel. Here, the body's chi channels could be opened completely. While the chi channels don't need to be completely open to use empty force, the person with open chi has far greater power and control, and will recover sooner than the person who has little chi control.
In 1981, Yu and his wife, Min OuYang, came to the U.S. to do research at the Stanford Research Institute in Palo Alto, California. In 1983, he died at the age of 81, leaving his wife to carry on his xing-i teachings.

Min, Yu's wife of 60 years, is well qualified to teach his system. She has devoted her entire life to martial arts training. As a young woman, she practiced shaolin and tai chi chuan martial arts. After marrying Yu, she learned from him and became his teaching assistant. In his later years, she did most of the actual teaching while he supervised.

Empty Force Elements

Most people who have seen martial arts movies picture empty force as the ability to break or move inanimate objects simply by looking at them. But this isn't so. True empty force is the ability to use chi to affect another person's chi, and therefore his physical well-being, without touching him.

Three elements are important in developing empty force: the mind (sum), intention (i), and internal energy (chi).

Sum and i go hand-in-hand. However, each need special conditioning before they can successfully operate together. To improve concentration, the mind must be clear and calm when practicing, and meditation is one way to develop a calm, clear mind.
Intention is the will to accomplish a goal, whether it's self-defense, healing or any other objective. Special internal exercises develop intention by using the eyes as a vehicle to focus on a target. As Min explains, "If you have to injure someone for self-defense, you must look at them with mean eyes."
Internal energy - chi - is literally defined in Chinese as air. Yu further qualified it as the amount of oxygen available to body cells, carried throughout the body by blood in the circulatory system. Although some people think chi is increased by certain forced breathing patterns, Yu's followers don't believe this. Forced or concentrated breathing stops the downward progress of chi. It doesn't advance it. On the other hand, calm meditation with natural, quiet breathing relaxes the mind and body enough to allow the chi, over time, to flow smoothly and evenly as it progresses down to a location three fingers below the tan tien (navel). Although it looks like a kung fu fighting move, this is one of the standing meditation postures in empty-force training. It's reserved for people whose chi has completely opened.

Opening the Chi Channels

When most people begin their internal energy development, their chi (breathing vibration point) is located high in their chests. But as they practice xing-i meditation for about one hour daily, their chi often moves down below the solar plexus. After two years, if their meditation is calm and if they exercise proper posture, it may move into the navel itself. When the chi finally reaches the navel, the body's chi channels are ready to open completely. At that point, with the help of an expert, the channels can be pushed open.

Before their chi is completely open, some people think they can lower their chi into the tan tien by pushing with their own concentration and intention. However, this is momentary and does not mean their chi is really into the navel area or that their chi will stay down permanently. It can easily move back up. When the chi has actually been pushed through beyond the tan tien, it will never go back up. The chi channels are opened forever.


How Empty Force Works

Empty force has no shape or color. As with radiation, it is a force that can easily penetrate another person's body. For instance, if your chi isn't developed enough to withstand an alien chi, you can suffer ill effects.

If the average person walked into Min's class and demanded a sample of empty force, he would be refused - not because empty force is a secret, but because without training and chi development that person could be seriously injured. If Min only used enough of her own chi for him to feel the effects, he might have a headache, become dizzy, turn pale, or lose consciousness. Any less and her chi would merely pass through his body unfelt. Yet in a fight, the result could be tremendous. For these reasons, only students who have developed their own chi strength can experience the empty force.

Intention plays an important role in empty force, too. If the person using empty force does not pinpoint the target, the chi will simply pass through these people or objects. But if the intention is to bounce it off a wall and into a target, the wall becomes a resistance that sends the chi back from its intended target. To further illustrate, if Min focused her empty force chi on one student, and another person walked between them, that person would feel nothing, since Min's mind and intention were focused on her original student.

Empty force is most often used well before actual contact is made. The student rushes forward and is stopped in his tracks, as if a wall had dropped between the student and Min. From there, she controls the student's every move.

Because the student's own chi developed, he handles her force by bouncing (jumping) like an inflated ball or by smoothly rolling back into a balanced position. By using his back, the student maintains his body as a single coordinated unit that returns to its original position, ready to receive more chi. From a fighting perspective, the student whose chi is open has an advantage. He uses his training and chi development to resist pushes and blows by bouncing back into a fighting position, unlike the average person who loses his balance, falls, and may be injured by the fall alone. If the student resists empty force - for example, by trying to jump from it - he can become sick or internally injured.
Due to the student's own chi development, his chi radiates from his body as if it were a ball surrounding him. As Min exudes her strong chi as empty force, it contacts the student's chi. It bounces him back, but doesn't penetrate his body. The person who has not controlled and developed his chi has internal development too weak to resist her concentrated chi and will either not react to a small amount of empty force, or can be injured by a larger amount.

How to Develop Empty Force

Min uses several methods to help her students develop chi and empty force. The most important is daily meditation. Unlike most meditation, which is spiritual training to calm the practitioner's mind, xing-i meditation relaxes both mind and body to move the chi down.

The basic meditation (zhan zhang) is a standing posture with the palms turned down and the knees bent. It's uncomfortable and tiring at first, but after the student learns to relax and enjoy quiet meditation, zhan zhang becomes comfortable. In fact, many advanced students don't want to stop, even after standing for an hour. Again, zhan zhang's purpose is to help lower the chi.

Leg push-ups (dang tui) are designed to bring the chi out of the body, starting with the hands. The student performs slow knee bends with his hands outstretched. His chi gradually develops to the point where it flows out of his arms and hands and extends as far as his intention sends it.

Another exercise for developing empty force is the eagle form (ying xing). As the student extends his arms and hands (like an eagle's wings), he extends the chi out of his body. Then he brings his chi back by pulling his arms in, as an eagle would while capturing his prey. In developing empty force, this exercise teaches the student to repel people with his empty force and pull them forward with his chi.

Other exercises are introduced at each level of training. The highest stage is reserved for those whose chi channels have opened. And yet, empty force is more than fighting. Currently in China, many chi kung research centers study empty force as a healing power. In fact, some hospitals have been established which only use chi to heal patients. The results? Many diseases have been successfully treated.

In these specialized hospitals, doctors project chi to patients form a short distance away. This is called wai chi Interestingly enough, some of the more prominent chi kung doctors in China were students of Yu and Min.
_________________________________________________________________


October 05, 2015, 06:11:41 PM
Reply #1

Neeros

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From a Shaolin perspective...

The two ultimate arts are Qin Na and Dim Mak.

Qin Na is composed of three aspects, gripping vital points, separating tendons, and wronging joints.

Dim Mak is the dotting of vital points of effect the circulation of chi within a person to cause harm and debilitation.

There are also three ultimate arts of internal force training.

One Finger Zen, or Yi Zhi Chan which can be utilized in dim mak, and can do damage from 36 paces.

Across Space Palm, or Pi Kong Zhang which can be utilized in healing, is capable of doing damage at 72 paces.

Marvelous Fist, or Shen Quan which is only for causing damage, is capable of doing damage at 108 paces.

All things being equal, One Finger Zen is the most powerful.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.
- Sun Tzu

[18:22] <Rayn> That makes it worst. If the people can't practically apply and create effects, it is not so good.
[18:22] <metalforever_> okay, and who in the oec can do that? i would say very very few
[18:22] <metalforever_> their too busy fondling their psiballs

October 07, 2015, 12:18:49 PM
Reply #2

Steve

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Well, the topic is 10 years old, but a very nice article over all. There's only a few minor points I'd like to nitpick, with the understanding that the author is likely not here to address what I say.

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What is the ultimate martial art technique?
There is no ultimate technique. Empty Force is an advanced technique (or set of techniques), and thus is powerful, but it's "ultimateness" is waned by how long it takes to develop, much as any other advanced set of techniques. A simple punch to the face, on the other hand (hah pun), ends many a fight, though sometimes the simple technique must be applied numerous times, but on the upside it can be employed even by a complete novice! ;)

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Internal energy - chi - is literally defined in Chinese as air.
Chi has three different definitions, with the second two each being built upon the previous one. The first definition is air, or more specifically steam as it rises from the water; breathing is believed to be the animating force that distinguishes a rock from a person, and thus qi gong is based on breathing techniques. The second definition is that of spirit, a higher level, and more subtle, concept of the animating force that distinguishes rock from person. The third definition is energy, which stops differentiating between rock and person and allows us to assume that different qualities of qi are everywhere, in everything, and are what allow things to affect one another in ways that aren't easily noticed if you're just looking at the physical world alone (it is, thus, somewhat metaphorical).

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When the chi has actually been pushed through beyond the tan tien, it will never go back up. The chi channels are opened forever.
So long as the person does not slack off and let themselves lose the benefits of their training.

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If the average person walked into Min's class and demanded a sample of empty force, he would be refused - not because empty force is a secret, but because without training and chi development that person could be seriously injured.
On a personal level, I don't like this argument. It's been used by a number of teachers, but why can't the teacher change their intention to healing and balancing, and then rebalance the victim's energy so that "the initial application that caused the headache" goes away?

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Intention plays an important role in empty force, too. If the person using empty force does not pinpoint the target, the chi will simply pass through these people or objects. But if the intention is to bounce it off a wall and into a target, the wall becomes a resistance that sends the chi back from its intended target. To further illustrate, if Min focused her empty force chi on one student, and another person walked between them, that person would feel nothing, since Min's mind and intention were focused on her original student.
This, I can flat out counter. I have watched as one person psychically communicated with another, and a stream in the air between them lit up and sparkled. I have focused my anger towards specific people and yet others who were either in the area of the target, or who walked across that line of focus, felt it. And one time I myself was walking along, looking to my left at an incident happening, and felt a sudden rush of intense enough energy from my right that it caused me to be afraid (the only time in my life another person has metaphysically caused me to be afraid), and after I walked a bit further along I looked back and noticed a man that I walked in front of, who was also watching the incident and who was pissed off about something.

Perhaps it is considered a higher level of training to affect only the target and nothing else, but I can verify that things other than the intended recipient can be affected.

~Steve
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 12:23:59 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 08, 2015, 01:04:32 AM
Reply #3

Mind_Bender

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If the average person walked into Min's class and demanded a sample of empty force, he would be refused - not because empty force is a secret, but because without training and chi development that person could be seriously injured.

On a personal level, I don't like this argument. It's been used by a number of teachers, but why can't the teacher change their intention to healing and balancing, and then rebalance the victim's energy so that "the initial application that caused the headache" goes away?

That's exactly what it was like for me. I asked my Sifu to show me Empty Force and I thought he would turn me down, but he just said "relax and hold this phone book on your chest." I was a new student (still in the baby stages of internal boxing, as I haven't had a Sifu in several years) and because he was a true internal boxing and qigong master he was able to safely and effectively show me a very high level of skill that could damage me for a lifetime, yet was able to heal me in seconds. He even gave me direction in how to acquire the skill.

From the Masters I have briefly trained with they explained to me that qigong is quite simple on the fundamental level, it just takes tuning into your body and its subtleties, hard work, and patience. Maybe not Immortality, but effective high level combat and healing techniques can be mastered with a few basic exercises. A brief encounter with a Xingyi Instructor said it is all about the Mind; do not concentrate on attaining a high level of skill just practice and in time you will just know you have attained a new level. My Baguazhang instructor told me something similar when he told me to relax, ground, and feel your body, do not visualize, intend or try to comprehend anything, just feel the movements (which he got from his discipleship in Chaoyi Fanhuan Qigong from Master Yap Soon Yeong). Japanese martial artists call it Satori (understanding or awakening).
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 08, 2015, 08:17:21 PM
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Kemetin

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Interesting input on the subject:

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The first mental ability we should discuss is that of ‘empty force’. There has been a great deal of interest in ‘empty force’ in the martial arts world and a lot of controversy. If you go onto the internet you will find numerous videos of teachers using this skill on their students, some dubious and some real. Empty force is the ability to move or knock down an opponent with no physical contact whatsoever. Qi is projected through empty space from the teacher into his student who usually bounces away from him like a rubber ball, often for quite some distance. Sometimes empty force is combined with a physical touch so that a teacher will lightly touch his students with his fingers and send them flying as though they had been hit by a very powerful force. To an onlooker this can look as if the teacher has supernatural powers and so consequently it is often presumed to be fake. The fact is that empty force is indeed real; it is just misunderstood and often misrepresented by the practitioners of this skill. Some teachers have claimed that empty force is some kind of weapon that can be used to stop any attacker. This is not true. I have met several teachers who used empty force and in each case they could only use the skill on their own students who had trained with them for some time; it was normally useless against a person they had not met before although there are occasional exceptions if a person is particularly sensitive to Qi flow. Does this make empty force fake or useless? No. While it may be useless as a weapon, it is very useful as an internal teaching aid.

Empty force works as Qi and Shen are projected from the practitioner into another person. Remember that Qi and Shen are vibrational waves that carry information. The information contained within this wave is dictated by the mind of the practitioner who has gained the skill of empty force. The information passes into the energy system of the target which then makes the person move around according to the will of their teacher. This relies on the target being energetically awakened enough to interpret the information contained within the Qi being transmitted into them. It does not rely on any form of autosuggestion as the receiver of this information may have their eyes closed and have Qi and Shen projected into their back and yet they still react according to the will of their teacher. A skilled teacher can choose to have their student moved in any direction they want or even in some cases manipulate their body movements to make them squat, run, spin or dance which is often very amusing to watch. The usefulness of this is that the empty force projection moves the target’s Qi strongly through their meridians. This induced flow of Qi carries with it information from the teacher’s own energy system which helps to awaken the student and move them quickly through the Nei Gong process. In this way empty force is used to pass on the internal teachings of the Daoist arts. While it is true that it may now be used to floor a student, we should reiterate here that it cannot be used to knock down an enemy. There are accounts of this being the case in the past but whether these are true or not I do not know. Perhaps people in the past had reached levels of skill beyond those possible today or maybe the accounts are greatly exaggerated. It is important that if projecting any form of energy into another person, you have reached a high stage of dissolving your own Ego. A negative mindset or intention will run the risk of damaging the target’s energy system. The information from your own Heart-Mind will be passed into the person you are working with and this can lead to them becoming depressed, angry, and manic and may eventually lead to physical illness. A healthy positive feeling of wanting to help your students must be present in order to use empty force safely as a teaching tool. If you have not reached a state of inner contentment then please refrain from using any abilities like this which you may have attained.

Mitchell, Damien (2011-08-15). Daoist Nei Gong: The Philosophical Art of Change (Kindle Locations 3384-3397). Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Kindle Edition.

October 10, 2015, 09:46:01 PM
Reply #5

Steve

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Indeed interesting input by Mr Mitchell, however I disagree with some of the things he's said.

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Some teachers have claimed that empty force is some kind of weapon that can be used to stop any attacker. This is not true.
Actually, it is true. I have made people stop in their tracks as they were advancing towards me. Their front foot planted firmly, and their back foot only moved another half step forward, mostly to prevent themselves from falling, and then they stayed right there until I stopped affecting them. People tend to become a lot more open to conversation when they aren't allowed to fight (and when they feel the oppressive quality of qi gong overshadow them).

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I have met several teachers who used empty force and in each case they could only use the skill on their own students who had trained with them for some time; it was normally useless against a person they had not met before although there are occasional exceptions if a person is particularly sensitive to Qi flow.
It is certainly going to be true that people who practice together are going to get a better feel for one another over time. So it should be no surprise that a person, whether teacher or student, can better affect the social circle of people around him than he can an outsider. If they cannot affect an outsider, however, then I would say that they've become too enclosed within their own group and have stunted their development.

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Remember that Qi and Shen are vibrational waves that carry information.
Ugh, vibrations. While not a necessarily incorrect metaphorical description, anytime I see the word vibration when talking about metaphysics, I get the feeling the person is probably new age.

Unless someone else who actually feels the energy would like to pipe up and tell me that you'd primarily describe it as vibrational, and not merely agree that it could be adapted to have a vibrational feel to it? Maybe I'm part of the minority who doesn't feel it this way.

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This relies on the target being energetically awakened enough to interpret the information contained within the Qi being transmitted into them.
Actually, it does not. I have made a youth across a room to walk across a room, grab a magazine, and walk back across the room to read the magazine while ignoring his friends. He was an ordinary youth who was not metaphysically developed beyond the norm.

I do agree that it has nothing to do with autosuggestion, as with the example of the youth, the youth's back was turned to me throughout most of it.

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While it is true that it may now be used to floor a student, we should reiterate here that it cannot be used to knock down an enemy.
While I've never used it to actually knock down an attacker, because I've never tried to use it for that, from what I have been able to use it for, I'd say that it should be able to.

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Perhaps people in the past had reached levels of skill beyond those possible today or maybe the accounts are greatly exaggerated.
Or maybe he's just never met these people.

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It is important that if projecting any form of energy into another person, you have reached a high stage of dissolving your own Ego. A negative mindset or intention will run the risk of damaging the target’s energy system.
*laughs* No shit? What the heck do you think the point of "punching someone in the face while defending yourself" is?

*reads further* Ooooh, he meant you shouldn't project it into people you like until you've reached a certain stage. I'll agree to that. Well, except that...

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If you have not reached a state of inner contentment then please refrain from using any abilities like this which you may have attained.
How are you supposed to develop abilities if you can't use them until they've been developed? It's a circular logic of stone walling someone's development.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 11, 2015, 01:22:07 AM
Reply #6

Kemetin

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Indeed interesting input by Mr Mitchell, however I disagree with some of the things he's said.

You should bear in mind that Mitchell is speaking within the context of the Empty Force which develops as a result of the specific system of training he describes. It does however match up quite closely with my own impressions to date, as I've yet to see (or even hear of from a reliable source) a demonstration of Empty Force being used against a stranger intent on harming the practitioner, while there are hundreds of it being used on students.

I'm not saying it isn't impossible to use energetic means to effect opponents from a distance (in fact there are several known mechanisms I can think of, and more I can speculate about), but the mechanic which is typically described and presented as Empty Force doesn't seem to be capable of doing it, and I'll hold that point of view until I see evidence to the contrary.


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Actually, it is true. I have made people stop in their tracks as they were advancing towards me. Their front foot planted firmly, and their back foot only moved another half step forward, mostly to prevent themselves from falling, and then they stayed right there until I stopped affecting them. People tend to become a lot more open to conversation when they aren't allowed to fight (and when they feel the oppressive quality of qi gong overshadow them).

"Made" as in they were physically incapable of advancing? Have you tested this repeatedly with different targets under different conditions?

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Ugh, vibrations. While not a necessarily incorrect metaphorical description, anytime I see the word vibration when talking about metaphysics, I get the feeling the person is probably new age.

Mitchell is anything but New Age. The description of metaphysical energy as vibratory in nature goes back to at least the early 19th century in Western esoteric literature, and I believe much further in Hindu scripture (although I don't have any direct sources to cite on hand, I'll try dig some up).

On top of which, it makes sense. All of physical reality is vibratory in nature, why should metaphysical reality be any different?

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Unless someone else who actually feels the energy would like to pipe up and tell me that you'd primarily describe it as vibrational, and not merely agree that it could be adapted to have a vibrational feel to it? Maybe I'm part of the minority who doesn't feel it this way.

As I said, physical reality is made up of vibrating particles, with their vibratory nature playing a huge role in determining their state. eg. Water is H2O molecules vibrating at a specific rate, while Ice is the same molecules vibrating at a lower rate, and Steam is the same molecules vibrating at a higher rate. That doesn't mean you feel the water vibrate as it flows down your throat.

My personal experience has been that the vibratory nature of metaphysical energy is much more apparent than that of physical matter - which surprised me at first because, like you, I initially wrote it off as  New Age-ism (like many things). But personal experience showed me otherwise, that vibration is an intrinsic property of metaphysical energy, that it can absolutely be personally experienced (although it isn't always experienced) and that it has a great deal of bearing on the nature and effect of the quantity of energy in question.

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Or maybe he's just never met these people.

Quite possible.


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How are you supposed to develop abilities if you can't use them until they've been developed? It's a circular logic of stone walling someone's development.

~Steve

In the case of this specific quote, the impression gained is that the ability is one that developed naturally as a result of the nei gong training he underwent - specifically after undertaking the process of converting Qi into Shen for a certain amount of time.

Anyway, I didn't mean the quote to be the last word on Empty Force or similar abilities, I just thought it provided an interesting perspective from a well respected figure in the Daoist community, and it matches up with my impressions on the subject.

October 11, 2015, 02:53:28 PM
Reply #7

Shinichi

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Sigh. Western practitioners have a tendency to misunderstand and over complicate Lin Kong Jin more than any other Nei Jia skill, except perhaps Fa Jin.

For one, it is a Jin (勁; power - not 精; essence) skill, and not a Qi skill. Lin Kong Jin, not Lin Kong Qi (which is kind of a thing, but a completely different thing). The cultivation of Jin involves Qi, but Qi is only one part of developing Nei Jin. When you have achieved the Liu He (Six Combinations), you have developed Jin (Qi =/= Jin; Yi + Xin + Qi + Li = Jin, everything correctly unified as one force is Jin). When you cultivate a certain quality and quantity of Jin, you can learn to do certain skills with this Power. Ting Jin, Fa Jin, Hua Jin, Ti Jin, and many more. The Waysun Liao version of Tai Chi Classics lists many of these skills, after talking about Qi and some simplified meditative ways to cultivate Jin.

At the end of the list in the Tai Chi Classics, it says this:

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Distance Power (ling kung jing)

     As the vibrations of internal power increase and become more polished, it is believed that one can gain the ability to transfer power without being in direct contact with the opponent; in other words, power can be transferred over distances. This technique, known as Distance Power, is thought to take decades of practice to achieve.

In other other words, there are more than two dozen ways you can emit, absorb, and otherwise "transfer" Power (Jin) through physical contact in a fight. Through Ting Jin (Listening Power), you can read your opponents intentions through sensitivity to their Power and how it moves. With Tzeh Jin (Borrowing Power), you can "take" your opponents force and bend it to your own use after he moves against you, and then you can use your opponents own force in order to do things like Fa Jin.

Then, Lin Kong Jin is, very simply, the ability to do any of that without actually touching. If you can't do those other skills, Lin Kong Jin is a pointless parlor trick because you have no real understanding of the far more important Nei Jia skills, and this is why so few people really understand it after becoming enchanted with its almost mythical standing. Controlling people with Shen and Qi alone is perfectly doable and I have indeed done it myself, but that is a nonphysical skill (influencing mind and energy alone) and has nothing to do with the actual nature and application of traditional Lin Kong Jin, which is a physical skill (influencing the body directly).

Ugh, vibrations. While not a necessarily incorrect metaphorical description, anytime I see the word vibration when talking about metaphysics, I get the feeling the person is probably new age.

Unless someone else who actually feels the energy would like to pipe up and tell me that you'd primarily describe it as vibrational, and not merely agree that it could be adapted to have a vibrational feel to it? Maybe I'm part of the minority who doesn't feel it this way.

Don't think new age, think physics. Light is light, but depending on things related to frequency (of what, now? vibration) it has different colors and even invisible bits. Energy is energy, but depending on its vibration it has different qualities, and so on. I work with vibrations quite a lot in my Rune practice, and the Runes themselves are to me just different specific vibrations on a larger spectrum.

Edit: I should also say that, with Nei Jin specifically, the feeling of vibration is also related to the quantity (and probably quality) of Nei Jin you develop. When you finally develop Nei Jin, your inner energy goes from feeling like little tingles (which is normal for Qi) to feeling like you are walking around with a subtle static charge all the time, a feeling of "power" in your dantian and whole body that is more than just the potency and gracefulness of developed Li and cultivated Qi, but something that is not just physical or just nonphysical and is the union of both. The more you develop your Jin, the more intense that feeling gets. So it's easy (for me at least) to understand why some call it vibrational, as Waysun Liao did. Jin can feel very much like a vibration, far more intensely than Qi alone does.



~:Shin:~
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:42:34 PM by Shinichi »
~:Completed the 2013 Qi Gong Study Group:~

"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

October 11, 2015, 04:43:45 PM
Reply #8

Kemetin

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For one, it is a Jin (勁; power - not 精; essence) skill

I really wish someone would tell Gary Clyman that :/

October 11, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Reply #9

Shinichi

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Clyman is part of an entire generation that got a bad translation and never learned enough Chinese to correct the mistake. And unfortunately, it passed down so now most people make the same mistakes, and few people really understand the significance of the difference.

It's similar to mixing up words like "grate" and "great." Understandable for some, especially children and non-native speakers, but eventually you either have to learn the difference or look like an idiot forever. Jin and Jing sound exactly the same, but in Chinese they are spelled differently and mean different things. And for Nei Gong, this distinction is very important to maintaining a genuine development.



~:Shin:~
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October 11, 2015, 07:42:10 PM
Reply #10

Kemetin

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The whole pinyin/Wade-Giles thing doesn't help either :/ Although I might be biased because I feel silly using "qi gong" and "kung fu" in the same sentence.

October 15, 2015, 05:10:07 PM
Reply #11

Steve

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It does however match up quite closely with my own impressions to date, as I've yet to see (or even hear of from a reliable source) a demonstration of Empty Force being used against a stranger intent on harming the practitioner, while there are hundreds of it being used on students.
Aye, withhold belief in it until you have seen it personally. That's fair. But on the other hand, I've never seen Peru while there are people who claim it exists ;)

Plus, of course there are more accounts of it being used on students. That's what training is for :P Better for it to rarely be used in a dangerous situation prior to it being tested hundreds of times in training. But then you have to wait for a dangerous situation to crop up in order to test it in the field.

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"Made" as in they were physically incapable of advancing? Have you tested this repeatedly with different targets under different conditions?
How many different conditions are there for almost getting into a fight that would drastically change this? But yes, I have used it in multiple situations.

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Mitchell is anything but New Age. The description of metaphysical energy as vibratory in nature goes back to at least the early 19th century in Western esoteric literature, and I believe much further in Hindu scripture (although I don't have any direct sources to cite on hand, I'll try dig some up).

On top of which, it makes sense. All of physical reality is vibratory in nature, why should metaphysical reality be any different?
I'm aware that nature has fundamental vibratory characteristics, but we don't describe everything in day to day life as such. For instance, we don't talk about the difference between a rock versus iron in terms of their vibration levels.

I'm aware that the concept of vibrations is real, and I have no contention for that. It's just that I've seen the concept of vibration appear so often among new agers that I now automatically equate the two. My apologies as I shouldn't have been so derogatory towards Mitchell on his use of the term. I was more trying to establish my own dislike for it rather than his credibility for using it.

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But personal experience showed me otherwise, that vibration is an intrinsic property of metaphysical energy, that it can absolutely be personally experienced (although it isn't always experienced) and that it has a great deal of bearing on the nature and effect of the quantity of energy in question.
That is "can be" experienced is not quite what I'm asking about. I've felt my energy take on many different qualities as I practice/play with it, including different vibration levels in some cases, but as a fundamental feel to it (ie, when I'm not messing around), I do not feel the vibrations. I'm curious as to whether other practitioners feel the base feeling of it in a relaxed state as vibrational.

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Anyway, I didn't mean the quote to be the last word on Empty Force or similar abilities, I just thought it provided an interesting perspective from a well respected figure in the Daoist community, and it matches up with my impressions on the subject.
That's fine too. It's not like my word is the last word on the subject either ^_^ I just tend to argue with an "edge".



Shinichi:
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For one, it is a Jin (勁; power - not 精; essence) skill, and not a Qi skill. Lin Kong Jin, not Lin Kong Qi (which is kind of a thing, but a completely different thing).
I never had a proper instructor so I don't know the difference via experience. I could describe what I do, and you could tell me how your instructor categorizes it, but that's the best I can do in using proper, historical terms.

So I mean, if someone is making the argument that very specifically "lin kong jin can do x, and I don't care about qi" then I have no idea whether that's true or not.

Quote
Don't think new age, think physics. Light is light, but depending on things related to frequency (of what, now? vibration) it has different colors and even invisible bits. Energy is energy, but depending on its vibration it has different qualities, and so on. I work with vibrations quite a lot in my Rune practice, and the Runes themselves are to me just different specific vibrations on a larger spectrum.
See above with how I replied to Kemetin :)

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When you finally develop Nei Jin, your inner energy goes from feeling like little tingles (which is normal for Qi) to feeling like you are walking around with a subtle static charge all the time, a feeling of "power" in your dantian and whole body that is more than just the potency and gracefulness of developed Li and cultivated Qi, but something that is not just physical or just nonphysical and is the union of both.
I felt a similar thing but I would describe it as denser/heavier/thicker rather than a static charge. What term would you use for that?

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 15, 2015, 07:21:18 PM
Reply #12

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When I do healing or cleansing qigong I wouldn't describe it as vibration but a feeling of calm. When I do Bagua practice I can feel vibration in my palms and feet and throughout the day I get the feeling of 'density' which makes me feel more rooted even as I walk about. In the lineage I learned, 'Vibration' is a bit more specific than 'all things vibrate so qigong (energy work in general) is the practice of becoming aware of, transmuting, and harnessing vibration' but the terminology is used to describe a method of qi emission via healing or fa jin. It is like sending ripples through water; for example, Monkey Lightening Palm is a practice where you strike the surface of water with the aim of making a submerged piece of tofu split or break (I have yet to try this, but I have heard stories). This same technique is used in medical qigong to break blockages and stagnated qi (although dangerous if you lack proper control according to my old Sifu).

I can speak for controlling bodies with Shen, especially when utilizing Bagua in sparring - making an opponent move without touch by the utilization of Bagua's infamous spiraling power. At first it was an accident on an instructor, then I tested again with the same result - I literally created an opening, but it is much easier with opponents that have not trained for over 30 years (simply because my instructor picked up on it after the second time).
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Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

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October 15, 2015, 07:43:10 PM
Reply #13

Shinichi

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So I mean, if someone is making the argument that very specifically "lin kong jin can do x, and I don't care about qi" then I have no idea whether that's true or not.

It's not that Qi isn't important to Jin, it's just that Qi is only one part of what makes up the composition of Jin. Many people in the West tend to focus so much on the coolness of Qi that they neglect Yi and Li to some extent, and even those who do train all three rarely complete the combination and cultivate Jin. This is one of the most basic principles of all the old Eastern Martial Arts, most especially all Nei Jia. Jin is the foundation.

I felt a similar thing but I would describe it as denser/heavier/thicker rather than a static charge. What term would you use for that?

Density is something commonly experienced. In a lot of Pranayama exercises, you can develop quite a lot of internal tension and density as you stretch the energy system and make it easier for more energy to come in with each breath. In Bardon's Accumulation exercises too, you can, with training, create a rather intense concentration of energy. And, like the air that Qi is often compared to, Quantity, Concentration, and Density are all very much interrelated.

With Jin, I consider the electrical feelings that I get to be related to the nature of what is going on (as I understand it). Qi can cause a lot of things to happen to the body, but Jin specifically manifests when you lead Qi through the Meridians and into the muscles, bones and so on. Yi, Qi, And Li (Mind, Energy, and Body) united and moving as one synchronized unit. Because a high quantity of Qi is usually involved in this, the "tingles" most people get are pushed to another level (because the Qi is coursing directly through the physical body), and so the intensity of what is felt increases too. With Jin, it's not just a mental thing, or even just an energy thing: it's a physical thing. Or really, as I said, it's all three synchronized.



~:Shin:~
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February 01, 2016, 11:31:49 PM
Reply #14

Koujiryuu

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I'm just gonna duck in and say not to rule out Jing (essence) completely. Shinichi, it seems like you really want to prove that Jing and Jin are separate and different (they are), but it sounds to me like you are missing some key parts.

In the books that I've studied, and from people I've talked to there is an undeniable link between Jing and Jin (internal power).

This is something that has to be understood from the paradigm of the text "Secret of the Golden Flower" and Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's interpretation of small heavenly circulation (Microcosmic Orbit) and the three Dantien.

A big part of developing Jin, and strengthening the original Jing (Yuan Jing or Neijing) comes from sinking the Post-Birth Qi (in the middle Dantien) to the Lower Dantien. This is accomplished through Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, Microcosmic Orbit and lowering the center of gravity. When this happens, then the Post-Birth Qi (firey Qi, from air and food) is unified with the Original Qi and Original Jing in the lower Dantien. The conception channel (renmei) is opened. After some time, if practice continues (particularly the Microcosmic Orbit) then the Qi and Jing in the lower Dantien moves up the Through-Going Vessel (Chongmei; spinal cord) to nourish the brain. This process is called Xi Shui Jing. It is Brain/Marrow Washing. You can find more details in "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" by Dr. Jwing-Ming. This process is basically kundalini awakening.

My point, is that by starting the circuit and opening the vessels in this manner, you are also sinking the body weight and developing Jin (internal power). This cannot happen without Jing and it cannot be developed to a high level without having the vessels opened. Qi leads Jing and Jing gives birth to Jin. At this point, you develop a very strong, sticky, magnetic flow of energy in the spinal cord. This is undeniably Qi but it is Jing too, and at the same time Jin.

The Jin is basically the action, and you are correct in saying it is body mechanics and intention (Yi). These are the different types of Jin in Taiji and Bagua. I'm just trying to elaborate, however, that Jing (essence) is involved in the process too. This comes from the unification of the San Bao (three treasures) manifesting in the spinal cord. You are basically not only using Jin, internal power, in combat but also applying your Qi and your sexual energy, and this comes from the lowered center of gravity. I hope that doesn't sound too crazy or anything. Also, you can see this in the stance of strong fighters, the back arches and the spine makes a C. Watch Bruce Lee-san in action to see this. He is manifesting his energy up the spine and down the arms. The Jin comes from the lower body = lower Dantien = essence

I hope I'm making sense and this gets through. It's something that is quite difficult to put into words and I think it is also something that is almost useless to explain if the other person hasn't had the experience (e.g. kundalini).

I would also like to remind you of this post and your replies to it. Something to keep in mind.

I hope I was able to add to the conversation positively. If anyone has any questions or wants my interpretation of things, I will continue to check the forums for a few days to respond.

Good health and training.
Kouji
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 11:39:15 PM by Koujiryuu »
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