Author Topic: Frequently Asked Questions about Psi  (Read 35470 times)

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August 26, 2006, 05:28:58 AM
Reply #30

kakkarot

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"and the other path uses devoted prayer and faith." you're still treating it like "you do x to get y" as though there's some hard and fast rule for determining who God will chose to give His Spirit to. The closest thing to a hard and fast "rule" in this regard is that God gave authority to Jesus (Matthew 28:18) that if Jesus decided someone should have the HS then God would give it to that person, and Jesus even gave authority to the apostles such that if the apostles decided someone should have the HS then God would honour that decision by giving that person the HS.

"In Matthew 21:21, Jesus refers to the ability to wither a fig tree or move a mountain as requiring great faith " faith in what, though (he says in Matthew 17 faith as small as a mustard seed (after just telling them that they couldn't drive out a demon because they have "little faith" ^_^; ), and merely "if you have faith" in Matthew 21:21, and a mustard seed is a really really really tiny seed)? it's easy to just say "faith in the end result" but if you look at what jesus says overall, he continually points back to God and tells people to trust in Him, so it's most likely he's still talking about faith in God here (or faith that the authority given by God individually to certain humans is a real authority), not just faith in the end result. As verse Matthew 21:22 points out "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." so it's not just believing in the end result, as that would not require asking via prayer (when's the last time you simply "believed really hard" that your dad would buy you something and he simply did without you needing to ask? Certainly he *can*, but *will* he?).

And ironically, control of doubt is one of the easiest things for a human being to do, as we grew up doing that very thing by fully trusting our parents until we learned that they're not perfect enough to completely trust. (there's a good reason why Jesus continually refers to Jehovah as his "Father", and it's not mere ideology. It's yet another method to illustrate that Jehovah wants to have a deep and personal relationship with each individual person, just like a Father "should" have with their children)

"works done by humans can ALSO be considered works done by God" it can also be stated that from many ways of looking at the world, works done by humans are JUST works done by humans. How many people in the world would actually consider that Mother Teresa was actually doing the will of God rather than her own? A lot. But how many would consider the opposite, that she was simply helping other people with no help from God? A lot as well. So, it does get iffy when you start putting humans into the mix, I'll agree to that.

Is there a hard and fast rule to determine who's doing things by God's power and who's doing things by their own power? Not that I can think of. Does it matter if you just care about the results? No. Does it matter for other reasons? It can, depending on the reason. Simon the Sorcerer, for instance, was performing wondrous works by his own power and was glorifying himself, so the apostles weren't exactly happy that he wanted to buy the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a matter of thinking he could purchase the HS that made Peter so mad, the idea of exchanging money for the ability to perform wondrous things? No. It was because his heart was not right before God.

Can a person perform Psi and have their heart right before God? Yes. But a person can also practice psi and NOT have their heart right before God. On the other hand, it'd be fairly difficult to have the Spirit of the Creator of all things resting in your self and have your heart wrong before God (or at least, if God is with you, you should be in the process of "righting" yourself before God, which is one of the purposes that God sent His Holy Spirit to dwell among men, with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit being proof (primarily to the recipients) that it's from God and not men).

Micah 6:8
    He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

The first two, act justly and love mercy, are walking in the ways of God, but the third one is walking WITH God. And how can a person walk with another person if that person isn't *right there* in their life? Can I walk in the ways of George W. Bush without ever having met him? Sure, I can learn about how George does things and why and to what ends, and I can emulate that (maybe not perfectly, but I can still do a damned good job of it). But to walk with George would require a close spatial relationship between our physical persons over a period of time. Since God is not limited to a physical body, as we supposedly are, God does not require to be "physically" close to us, but there is still a need for His personality/thoughts/identity/actions/"psyche" to be close to our personality/thoughts/identity/actions/"psyche" in order for us to walk with Him. How can that be accomplished? Via His Own Personal Soul living within us as we live (the body is the temple for the HS). Just performing acts of great wonders are child's play for God, but living with God is the real reason for redemption, and it is the message of the bible. "helping others, and raising them up spiritually" is walking in the ways of God, which is a neccessary part of walking with God but is not the actual walking with God.

Edit: Btw, parts of my previous post and this one mean I'm apologizing for starting the debate (I too often imply things without explicitly stating them). I didn't realize you were quoting those passages in 3.2 to edify people, I thought you were using them to nudge along the idea that christians "should" practice psi.

~kakkarot

PS Here's the two passages where Jesus says God will clothe and feed His people
Matthew and Luke which I have yet to find in Hebrews.

Phew, this ballooned way more than I expected it to.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 06:46:03 AM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 26, 2006, 04:57:39 PM
Reply #31

kobok

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"and the other path uses devoted prayer and faith." you're still treating it like "you do x to get y" as though there's some hard and fast rule for determining who God will chose to give His Spirit to.

Actually, I'm treating it as though God gave us free will to direct our own actions in this respect, and as though he does not do everything for us, because he wants us to learn how to do things and how to make decisions to do things.

"In Matthew 21:21, Jesus refers to the ability to wither a fig tree or move a mountain as requiring great faith " faith in what, though (he says in Matthew 17 faith as small as a mustard seed (after just telling them that they couldn't drive out a demon because they have "little faith" ^_^; ), and merely "if you have faith" in Matthew 21:21, and a mustard seed is a really really really tiny seed)? it's easy to just say "faith in the end result" but if you look at what jesus says overall, he continually points back to God and tells people to trust in Him, so it's most likely he's still talking about faith in God here (or faith that the authority given by God individually to certain humans is a real authority), not just faith in the end result. As verse Matthew 21:22 points out "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." so it's not just believing in the end result, as that would not require asking via prayer (when's the last time you simply "believed really hard" that your dad would buy you something and he simply did without you needing to ask? Certainly he *can*, but *will* he?).

The precise meaning of "faith" as used by Jesus is complicated, and the subject of a multitude of volumes full of scholarly debate.  It can't appropriately be trivialized as belief, nor can it be summarized as simply trusting God.  Faith is an active and intentful process, and it is not just a general trait, but can also be very specific to certain circumstances.

Also, prayer is not as simple as talking.  The words used in prayer don't mean much of anything in comparison to the spiritual content, intent, and focus of the prayer.

And ironically, control of doubt is one of the easiest things for a human being to do

Move any mountains lately?  Think it will happen if you ask?

Edit: Btw, parts of my previous post and this one mean I'm apologizing for starting the debate (I too often imply things without explicitly stating them). I didn't realize you were quoting those passages in 3.2 to edify people, I thought you were using them to nudge along the idea that christians "should" practice psi.

Actually, I was presenting it to edify people, AND to encourage Christians to practice psi.  Christians do benefit from practicing psi, because they come to know themselves better, they come to know their soul better, they come to know the souls of others better, and this leads to much further edification.
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August 27, 2006, 06:42:05 AM
Reply #32

kakkarot

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Quote from: kobok
Also, prayer is not as simple as talking.
I'm going to have to disagree with that, as prayer IS as simple as talking to another person. That's what prayer is. Talking to God. It doesn't require mantras or meditations or rituals or invocations, it's simply communicating with God the same way as you would with a person beside you.

Quote from: kobok
Move any mountains lately?  Think it will happen if you ask?
No. Yes. I don't ask for the same reason that God gave me when I asked Him whether there are any circumstances in which thievery is ok, and God answered quite simply with Psalms 24:1 "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;". God is in control, so I don't need to move mountains or even produce miracles or even do anything. I choose to try and align my self with God's will so that I can do God's work as God desires it to be done. If God wants a mountain moved, I certainly don't need to have the power to do it :) (reference Moses from Exodus until his death)

~kakkarot
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 27, 2006, 01:08:15 PM
Reply #33

kobok

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Quote from: kobok
Also, prayer is not as simple as talking.
I'm going to have to disagree with that, as prayer IS as simple as talking to another person. That's what prayer is. Talking to God. It doesn't require mantras or meditations or rituals or invocations, it's simply communicating with God the same way as you would with a person beside you.

It seems to me that God listens to the inner prayer, not the outer one.  If you speak one thing on the outside, but think something else deep inside, which do you think God will hear?

This makes it very different from talking to another person.

Quote from: kobok
Move any mountains lately?  Think it will happen if you ask?
No. Yes. I don't ask for the same reason that God gave me when I asked Him whether there are any circumstances in which thievery is ok, and God answered quite simply with Psalms 24:1 "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;". God is in control, so I don't need to move mountains or even produce miracles or even do anything. I choose to try and align my self with God's will so that I can do God's work as God desires it to be done. If God wants a mountain moved, I certainly don't need to have the power to do it :) (reference Moses from Exodus until his death)

Well, you apparently take a much more passive approach to life than I do.

I don't believe that God needs us to yield control, nor do I believe God designed us for the purpose of yielding control.  I believe it is self-evidence from the nature of our existence that we were designed to learn to act.  If God had wanted servants, he could have created servants.  Instead it seems he wanted children.  In the desires of a parent, children grow up, learn responsibility, and learn how to direct their own lives in the manner they were taught.
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August 27, 2006, 02:51:39 PM
Reply #34

kakkarot

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Quote from: kobok
It seems to me that God listens to the inner prayer, not the outer one.  If you speak one thing on the outside, but think something else deep inside, which do you think God will hear?
God will hear both. Of course speaking to God involves communication of the soul/spirit more so than the tounge, but communication even with God can still be as simple as just talking.


I take a semi-passive role in my life with God, in that if I come upon a situation which can use some "godly actions" on my part I'll pray to God to see if He has anything other than the obvious in mind and if He doesn't answer, I (often times, but not always :/) do the obvious. If he does answer and say He wants something else done, I do that instead. At times God contacts me and tells me to go places and talk to people and I (once again to my chagrin, only usually) do. The reason I don't take a more active, controlling, role is because when I used to, I'd screw up almost all the time.

~kakkarot

James 4:2d-3
You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

September 19, 2006, 07:14:32 PM
Reply #35

AngryLeprachaun

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I'm delighted to hear of people that contain/withhold the same beliefs as I do.  The Lord has defintely completed his services I have asked of him.

Amen

-AngryLep-
..::Believe::..

September 19, 2006, 08:09:03 PM
Reply #36

Hech

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You say it like God is your faithful servent who obeys you.

September 19, 2006, 09:01:47 PM
Reply #37

AngryLeprachaun

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What I meant to say was, "I prayed for more individuals to serve the Lord".  In response to the topic, I answered simply by saying, "My prayers were answered."

I'm sorry if I confused you.


-AngryLep-
..::Believe::..