Author Topic: Frequently Asked Questions about Psi  (Read 35464 times)

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August 18, 2006, 07:33:27 AM
Reply #15

Hech

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First, do you ignore the entire post of kakkarot?


Second, the problem here is at the very root of your reasoning: "Gifts of the spirit are gifts of the soul, and gifts of the soul are abilities of the soul, and abilities of the soul are called psi.  Are they miraculous?"

In that case, typing right now is a miracle, because is not the body that is "fearfully and wonderfully made" miraculous? You're using the term "gifts of the Spirit" improperly.

We're talking about spiritual gifts, which vary from person to person, and are fully gifts which are given to God's chosen ones. What you're talking about is God's blessing of life to us, and all that entails, which is, of course, the ability to express the soul just as we can express the body. The act of sex, for example, has both physical and spiritual counterparts which are both quite powerful in nature - sex isn't a spiritual gift, but it certainly is a gift from God.

Just because we can train aspects of our soul's expression does not mean that is a spiritual gift in the sense that the term is used in the Bible. Sure, the soul is a gift from God, but it is not the same as the aformentioned "spiritual gifts".

You see, "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines," this implies that the Spirit gives certain gifts to each person, as he so decides. What you're talking about is simply the gift of life, the ability to train and use one's soul.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 07:37:47 AM by Hech »

August 18, 2006, 02:01:55 PM
Reply #16

kobok

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First, do you ignore the entire post of kakkarot?

I read it.  I just have to choose a handful of things to reply to at a time unless I want the conversation to balloon significantly.  :)

Second, the problem here is at the very root of your reasoning: "Gifts of the spirit are gifts of the soul, and gifts of the soul are abilities of the soul, and abilities of the soul are called psi.  Are they miraculous?"

In that case, typing right now is a miracle, because is not the body that is "fearfully and wonderfully made" miraculous?

Something is miraculous if it is either supernatural, or if it inspires admiring awe, surprise, etc.  Usually both of these are required for something to be considered under the scope of the word "miraculous".  This is why I answered my own rhetorical question of "Are they miraculous?" by saying, "That's more a question of how people are affected by them."

Abilities of the soul are "supernatural" for most definitions of supernatural, and since Christians of course believe the soul comes from God, that of course means those abilities come from God.  Then, determining if they are miraculous or not is simply a question of what effect the use of those abilities has on people.

Sure, the soul is a gift from God, but it is not the same as the aformentioned "spiritual gifts".

I see no reason to make more distinctions than are necessary.  The same mechanism is capable of describing both sets of events.  Simple reasoning says that you can presume two sets of events are explainable by the same mechanism if that single mechanism can fully account for both sets of events.  So is Jesus's soul, and thus his ability, more powerful than the typical human soul?  Quite probably.  But that doesn't require us to imagine an entirely separate mechanism to explain something of a similar nature and effect to what we understand.

You see, "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines," this implies that the Spirit gives certain gifts to each person, as he so decides. What you're talking about is simply the gift of life, the ability to train and use one's soul.

"As he so decides" is a description added based on ones philosophy about free will and the influence of God over humanity's actions.  Does God decide our actions, or do we decide our actions?  Does the question itself even make sense given the different levels of operation of God and humanity?  For the sake of this conversation, who cares?  It's a question for which we can leave the answer as a personal opinion for now, and if we want, debate it elsewhere.


Again, I think the basic point is that we should not think that miraculous events are devalued in any way by the fact that we've reached a point where we can begin to understand the operating mechanisms behind them.  Understanding how a car works does not change its usefulness, and understanding how the internet works does not make it less amazing.  Neither does understanding how supernatural abilities are performed by ordinary humans or by Jesus make them any less amazing.  We should not be afraid to understand parts of the divine.
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August 18, 2006, 04:34:08 PM
Reply #17

Hech

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I understand what you're saying, but you're missing the point of these last few posts by kakkarot and myself: The verse was taken entirely out of context.

Spiritual gifts are gifts which should ONLY be used for edification, if telepathy is a spiritual gift, then you cannot use it unless it edifies other believers. That's rediculous. In fact, telepathy is never mentioned as a spiritual gift, yet you say any expression and ability of the soul seems to be a spiritual gift.

Sure, you can perform precognition as a trained ability. But the prophets of God did not recieve these divine prophecies by there own ability, no, this was a gift from God and they recieved the prophecies with no training or skill.

You see, the mechanisms ARE different. I can punch a person or I can kick a person, the outcome is the same but it doesn't mean the source is the same. In one case, the person performs the task (believer of God or not) via trained ability. In the other case, the servant of God is divinely given the information because they have been given that particular gift.

The Spirit decides who recieves what gift, just like God decided how both Adam and Eve would look and how He would create the universe. This doesn't remove free will. If you want to discuss free will and predetermination, we could do so in another thread.

August 18, 2006, 07:50:37 PM
Reply #18

kakkarot

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Kobok: You describe psi as 1) internal, 2) innate to human nature, 3) something that needs to be developed.
Yet all of the bible authours describe the Holy Spirit as 1) external, 2) innate to God's nature, which is wholly distinct from man's nature, 3) something given by God as God chooses to give it.

If you're describing something that is fundamentally different than what more than two dozen others, who've directly experienced what they're talking about so there is no reason to discount their words simply by saying it is nothing more than "an explanation for mysterious events by an unseen agent", are talking about then obviously you're talking about two different things. You, two thousand years later, cannot simply discount the experiences that plenty of people had for much of their lives (the HS stayed with these people, it wasn't a single event that they had to reminisce upon) just because you want to interpret their words to fit your experiences.

If what you've experienced is different from what they've experienced, then you're not talking about the same thing. The Holy Spirit is not Psi. If you won't take Peter's (an apostle of Jesus, which you are not) word for it, if you won't take Joel's (a Prophet of Jehovah, which you are not) word for it, Jesus' word for it (who is the Christ, which you are not), and even God's word for it (the Creator of all things and the owner of His own personal spirit, which you are not) then by what authority do you say all these people are wrong?

~kakkarot

Lu 3:22
   and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 08:22:27 PM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 21, 2006, 01:28:35 PM
Reply #19

kobok

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Kobok: You describe psi as 1) internal, 2) innate to human nature, 3) something that needs to be developed.
Yet all of the bible authours describe the Holy Spirit as 1) external, 2) innate to God's nature, which is wholly distinct from man's nature, 3) something given by God as God chooses to give it.

The resolution to that is quite simple:  Psi is not the Holy Spirit.

And of course, it could not be.  The Holy Spirit is not an ability, it is a Counselor.

This is the Holy Spirit.

These are the gifts of the spirit  (Note, these are "gifts", which are "abilities", and thus are not the same as the Counselor, which serves as a guide.)

Quote from: Hech
Spiritual gifts are gifts which should ONLY be used for edification, if telepathy is a spiritual gift, then you cannot use it unless it edifies other believers.

Here is a warning to not dismiss various gifts (of which psi would be an excellent example) because you think them lesser, less important, or less edifying.  (And I would argue that the path of psi is far more edifying than speaking in tongues.  I also believe that if psi had existed under the name "psi" back then, Paul would have agreed, given his later comments about speaking in tongues.)

Quote from: Hech
Sure, you can perform precognition as a trained ability. But the prophets of God did not recieve these divine prophecies by there own ability, no, this was a gift from God and they recieved the prophecies with no training or skill.

Paul would disagree with you, for he frequently encourages people to actively seek out and control spiritual gifts, so that they can be used productively and wisely.

"But eagerly desire the greater gifts.  And now I will show you the most excellent way."

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy."

"Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church"

"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets."
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August 21, 2006, 07:22:22 PM
Reply #20

kakkarot

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what bible have you been reading, kobok? the more i get to know of your understanding of the bible, it seems to be heavily influenced by gnosticism and personal interpretations based on trying to reconsile your personal experiences with what you read in some books (the books in this case being the bible).

Quote from: kobok
Here is a warning to not dismiss various gifts (of which psi would be an excellent example)
You've failed to actually show that psi is a gift from God, as your association is based on assumptions that "everything is from God"
Quote from: kobok
What do you think gifts of the spirit are?  Gifts of the spirit are gifts of the soul, and gifts of the soul are abilities of the soul, and abilities of the soul are called psi.
gifts of the spirit are gifts of the Spirit of God, not men. first and most important break, as you've completely failed to show that the gifts given by the Holy Spirit as talked about in the bible are innate to men.


Holy Spirit (notice how there's more to it than just being a councellor?)
Spirit of God
Spirit of the Lord
my spirit

Now, cut out the verses that have nothing to do with God and read (such as in psalms where david says "my spirit" when he is talking about his own spirit). I'm going to stop debating this now, as it's all in the bible and I shouldn't be making this into a debate but should instead be helping people learn. If some wants to disagree with me, then fine: i'm human, i could be wrong. But at the very least, if someone wants to know what the bible has to say on this, they can read it for themselves in the above links and more.

~kakkarot
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 07:32:31 PM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 21, 2006, 11:42:36 PM
Reply #21

kobok

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Quote from: kobok
Here is a warning to not dismiss various gifts (of which psi would be an excellent example)
You've failed to actually show that psi is a gift from God, as your association is based on assumptions that "everything is from God"

Psi is by definition a gift of the soul, and I trust that given your beliefs you will agree without citation that the soul is from God.  Therefore, the abilities of the soul are given by God, even though he does not dictate our usage of them any more than he dictates the usage of our arms or legs.

Quote from: kobok
What do you think gifts of the spirit are?  Gifts of the spirit are gifts of the soul, and gifts of the soul are abilities of the soul, and abilities of the soul are called psi.
gifts of the spirit are gifts of the Spirit of God, not men. first and most important break, as you've completely failed to show that the gifts given by the Holy Spirit as talked about in the bible are innate to men.

I do not believe you have shown support for the claim that the spiritual gifts talked about by Paul are executed solely by the Holy Spirit and not by men.  Toward the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Paul refers to the "gifts of administration".  Are you going to claim that the gift of administration is done by the Holy Spirit and not by man?  I think the more plain and simple interpretation is that he is describing various actions of people and the contributions they can make with their various gifts.

And to reaffirm that this even applies to the "big" gifts, Paul said that the gift of prophecy should be (and can be) controlled by the prophet, as I showed above.  And I already established above that faith of the individual can enable and disable the gifts.

Holy Spirit (notice how there's more to it than just being a councellor?)

These are largely providing no information about the Holy Spirit (only mentioning it in passing), not on topic, or in concert with the definition of the Holy Spirit provided by Jesus.  If you can find a specific one which is in contradiction, please present it.  But I would probably go with a definition given by a quote of Jesus over a more subtle implication in another verse.
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August 22, 2006, 07:42:23 PM
Reply #22

kakkarot

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The John quote about the HS is just one of the tasks the HS does. To say that it is the only thing God's Spirit does is to ignore much of the rest of the bible.

Gifts: Hebrews 2:4
    God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Err, I guess that kills your theory that the gifts are inherent to mankind ("it" that God is testifying to is the message of salvation, vs 3) >.> but since you ask so nicely I'll continue.

Prophecy: Mark 12:36
    David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.'"
Luke 1:67
    His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
Acts 1:16
    and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--
Acts 4:25
    You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: "'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Acts 21:11
    Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.'"
Acts 28:25
    They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
2 Peter 1:21
    For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Prophecy AND Tounges: Acts 19:6
    When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Tounges: Acts 2:4
    All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Revelation: Luke 2:26
    It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Power: Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

God's Love: Romans 5:5
    And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Seal as proof of salvation: Ephesians 1:13
    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30
    And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Rebirth and Renewal: Ephesians 3:5
    he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Misc: Romans 14:17
    For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Romans 15:13
    May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 15:16
    to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19
    Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

And notice here that Paul makes a clear distinction between the Holy Spirit and himself:
Acts 15:28
    It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:


Phew, and that's just the Holy Spirit link. If you'll notice in certain verses among all of those links (like 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 4:30), the Holy Spirit is just one of the names the Spirit of the LORD goes by, so I certainly implore you to look into the other links as well :)

~kakkarot
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 08:01:17 PM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 23, 2006, 01:15:53 AM
Reply #23

kobok

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Gifts: Hebrews 2:4
    God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Err, I guess that kills your theory that the gifts are inherent to mankind

Hebrews in that, and surrounding text, is basically trying to establish and emphasize how powerful God is and how important Jesus is.  So just about everything would be "distributed according to his will" in such a passage, including the food you had for dinner yesterday.  I do not find this to rule out the passages I showed above which explain the spiritual gifts as gifts controllable by people.

Regarding the rest, I am not persuaded by posting volume.  It would be better if you made a concise point using the select points you found most strong.  Most of those quotes seem to be references to the Holy Spirit that are made almost as an afterthought, with a description of an event, and a comma clause postulating that it must have been by the Holy Spirit.

In addition, I think we are getting substantially off topic here.  If one has to reach far into theological speculation about the nature of God to find a reason to not do psi, when the straightforward spiritual message of Christianity operates fine in concert with the path of psi, then I think it is no longer an important point of contention.
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August 23, 2006, 03:09:41 AM
Reply #24

kakkarot

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How is it that you can read into statements that merely say "Yeah, God gave you a gift so now you can control it" and twist them to say "The gift is a natural part of you, you just have to develop it" and yet fail to acknowledge the statements which are directly and explicitly stating their claims that the spiritual gifts talked about in the bible are not inherent to men but are given out by God on an individual basis? (and also, you'll read in Matthew and, I think, Luke that God will give out food and clothes, but I don't recall that in Hebrews :))

Secondly, volume is important in this case as it shows and overwhelming support for the number of claims that the HS is 1) more than just a councellor and 2) the source of the spiritual gifts given by God to individuals as God choses (not as men develop).

Edit: And lastly, I'm not trying to find a reason not to do psi, I'm saying your reasoning for doing psi is unfounded as you're the one trying to reach too far into a theology that doesn't support the use of psi to try and say that psi should be done. The straightforward message of christianity is this: God created everything, men rebelled against god (sin), God spent time punishing men and trying to tell them to turn back to Him until He finally sent "His Son" as a sin sacrifice for the sins of all men who would accept it and then turn back to Him. The base message has nothing to do with metaphysics at all.

~kakkarot
ps. i hate it when i say I'm not going to argue anymore because i always turn out to lie _
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 05:43:59 AM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 23, 2006, 01:07:10 PM
Reply #25

kobok

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And lastly, I'm not trying to find a reason not to do psi, I'm saying your reasoning for doing psi is unfounded as you're the one trying to reach too far into a theology that doesn't support the use of psi to try and say that psi should be done.

A standard fallacy used by some Christians is that if something is not mentioned in the bible, it is against Christianity.  Usually things are not mentioned in the bible because they or the terms and models used to describe them didn't exist back then (like psi).  I believe it is more useful to look and see if something new is in concert with the spiritual message of Christianity, and I find psi to be very much in concert with this, and thus, should be encouraged for this reason.

The straightforward message of christianity is this: God created everything, men rebelled against god (sin), God spent time punishing men and trying to tell them to turn back to Him until He finally sent "His Son" as a sin sacrifice for the sins of all men who would accept it and then turn back to Him. The base message has nothing to do with metaphysics at all.

That's the base mythology of Christianity as constructed by religious scholars.  The base MESSAGE of Christianity is love and charity (helping others, and raising them up spiritually).  Everything else is beneath this.

And does psi help people to rise up spiritually and to help others?  Yes.

ps. i hate it when i say I'm not going to argue anymore because i always turn out to lie _

*chuckle*
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August 23, 2006, 07:09:29 PM
Reply #26

kakkarot

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Quote from: kobok
A standard fallacy used by some Christians is that if something is not mentioned in the bible, it is against Christianity.
I didn't say anything about psi being against christianity! I said
Quote from: kakkarot
a theology that doesn't support the use of psi
where in that do you read "a theology that is against the use of psi"?

Psi is not in the bible (unless you rewrite what the bible actually says). You're wrong. (I apologize for this last statement that I removed. It was rather rude.)
~kakkarot
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 06:07:03 AM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 23, 2006, 08:26:17 PM
Reply #27

kobok

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Psi is not in the bible (unless you rewrite what the bible actually says).

I don't believe I ever said that the word psi is in the bible, or that the specific paradigm of psi is present in the bible (and in fact, it obviously could not be since it was largely developed in the 20th century).  The original question in the FAQ is, "Can I be a Christian and do psi?", and the answer I provide is "Yes.  I am.  I have made my peace with God, and I find that psi strengthens my personal relationship with God.  It is up to you to see if this path also fits you.  Here are some verses you may find inspirational:"  followed by a collection of verses which I find to be applicable to the spiritual value of psi and to the call for Christians to do great works which have potential to uplift others.

The debate started because you proposed that the gifts of the spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12/13 are automatic performances that require no human action to accomplish them, and I objected to this by referring to the actions of Peter and the descriptions by Paul.  Then I pointed out that spiritual gifts and psi possess fundamental similarities in nature and behavior, and that the differences are not in the nature of their performance, but in the culture and paradigm surrounding them (just as the differences between psi and magick are largely in the culture and paradigm surrounding them).

Now everytime one proposes that two paradigms have a similar fundamental nature this inevitably angers someone who holds one paradigm as more valuable than the other.  I can remember countless debates I've had in my life with people who think magick is different from psi because magick is supposed to use something called "external energy" and psi is supposed to use something called "internal energy".  I consider a claim that spiritual gifts of Corinthians use the Holy Spirit while psi uses the soul to be not much different from the claims made by those who tried to draw a similarly needless line between magick and psi.  In the end, the abilities exhibit most of the same effects, and have many of the same fundamental properties affecting their performance.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, even if it's not the exact same as a duck, the meat probably tastes about the same.
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August 25, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
Reply #28

kakkarot

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"followed by a collection of verses which I find to be applicable to the spiritual value of psi and to the call for Christians to do great works which have potential to uplift others." ok then, now we have your motive. prior to this I figured, based on the passages chosen, that you were trying to equate "the use of psi by humans" to "the workings of God by His own authority".

"are automatic performances that require no human action to accomplish them" no *work*, not no action. i do not consider work to simply be action, as work implies effort. ie, you don't have to do focal meditations every day to "get better" at using the gifts of God, whereas you do have to partake in some sort of training/practice in order to develop the ability to use psi to a greater extent.

regarding paradigms, however, different paradigms are not neccessarily just portraying the same thing from different viewpoints. after all, if I have a motorized vehicle, which has wheels, is made of metal, and needs someone to drive it, do I have a car or a train or an airplane? I could use all three to get from, say, New York to San Francisco (assuming the trains have such routes set out), but it would be through different methods and different mechanics, eventhough the result would be the same. And then, if you change the destination from SF to Tokyo, could I still get there? I could if I had the airplane, but not if I had the car or the train. Paradigms are not always equatable, so one must be careful when they start saying "well, there are a few similarities (and just discount the differences by explaining them away as "part of the paradigm"), and you get the same results, so it's probably the same thing".

~kakkarot
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 26, 2006, 12:16:14 AM
Reply #29

kobok

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"are automatic performances that require no human action to accomplish them" no *work*, not no action. i do not consider work to simply be action, as work implies effort. ie, you don't have to do focal meditations every day to "get better" at using the gifts of God, whereas you do have to partake in some sort of training/practice in order to develop the ability to use psi to a greater extent.

One path uses focal meditation and control of expectations, and the other path uses devoted prayer and faith.

In Matthew 21:21, Jesus refers to the ability to wither a fig tree or move a mountain as requiring great faith and control of ones doubts, and says that these things will work if done properly.  He doesn't say, "God will think about it."  Yet clearly you can see that this degree of faith and control of doubt does not come without human work to develop both of those, and thus, such abilities are fairly rare.

regarding paradigms, however, different paradigms are not neccessarily just portraying the same thing from different viewpoints. after all, if I have a motorized vehicle, which has wheels, is made of metal, and needs someone to drive it, do I have a car or a train or an airplane? ...

I would concur with you in that works done by God alone are not the same as works done by humans.  However, it must be stated that from many ways of looking at the world, works done by humans can ALSO be considered works done by God, and thus the most important aspect of that statement is "works done by God alone".  But when we're talking about spiritual gifts performed by humans, with many verses having been presented so far about the human contribution of work and control regarding the performance of these gifts, then we are not talking about works done by God alone.
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