Author Topic: Frequently Asked Questions about Psi  (Read 32256 times)

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November 09, 2004, 11:38:57 AM
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kobok

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Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about Psi
by kobok

1, Introductory Questions About Psi:
1.1, What is psi?
1.2, Am I able to do psi?
1.3, How do I learn psi?
2, Questions About the Nature of Psi:
2.1, Why are there so many different descriptions about psi?
2.2, Is psi due to electromagnetism?
2.3, Is psi performed by the brain?
2.4, Can psi energy be created or destroyed?
2.5, What does the soul have to do with psi?
2.6, If I visualize or expect something to happen, does that mean it will?
3, Questions Relating Psi to Other Things:
3.1, What is the relationship between psi, magick, and chi?
3.2, Can I be a Christian and do psi?
3.3, What does psi have to do with spirituality?
4, Questions about the practice of psi:
4.1, Why can't I get it to work?
4.2, How do I do aerokinesis, biokinesis, cryokinesis, electrokinesis, geokinesis, hydrokinesis, lunakinesis, pyrokinesis, terrakinesis, or *kinesis?
4.3, What is the solution to telepathic or empathic overload?


1, Introductory Questions About Psi:

1.1, What is psi?

In summary, psi is the art of causing change and sensing things by direct exertion of mental focus.  There is also a great philosophical and spiritual depth to psi, which shapes the pursuit of psi into a lifelong path of self-betterment.

Psi includes all abilities that have been encapsulated under psychic abilities, including terms such as telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, precognizance, psychokinesis, and remote viewing.  Most paradigms dealing with psi include an emphasis on manipulation and awareness of psi energy.


1.2, Am I able to do psi?

An often recited slogan is that "everyone is psychic".  There is a great deal of truth to that in that every human seems to possess the potential to perform psi.  However, psi is a path which requires developing much focus, dedication, and self-awareness.  Not everyone begins the path of psi with these attributes, but everyone who continues to develop must develop these in order to grow in skill.


1.3, How do I learn psi?

The first thing any beginner interested in psi should do is practice meditation.  In particular, those interested in the path of psi should perform focal meditation, which can consist of any meditation exercise in which the goal is to focus exclusively on a single thing for a long period of time (at least 30-60 minutes).  The skills developed in focal meditation are essential to beginning serious work in psi.  For more details on focal meditation, see this article.

After you have begun meditation, you should take it upon yourself to read as many of these articles on psi as you can, to get a solid background.  The forums can also be a wealth of information, as you can search for old threads on topics that interest you, or if there are no old threads on the topic, create a new thread to ask your question.

There are also extended courses on psi which are periodically offered at Veritas, which require you to fill out an application form and require a serious time commitment.  Until the next course offering, or if you are not interested in courses, I encourage you to practice psi as much as you can using the articles and forums as a resource.

You should keep in mind that psi is not an easy solution to anything.  It is a lengthy undertaking requiring much work, but it is a beautiful and irreplaceable thing, and it will change your life and your view of the world as you progress.


2, Questions About the Nature of Psi:

2.1, Why are there so many different descriptions about psi?

There are many different descriptions about psi because there are many ways to get psi to work.  There are a large number of "effective models" of psi which work perfectly well, even though they are not fundamental to the way psi works.  This is a natural result of the way psi functions.

Results in psi are usually considered to be related to a deep expectation or fundamental belief of success.  These effective models work because they trigger these deep expectations of success.  Different effective models often arise in different cultures, because there is different symbolism which is believed in and used to obtain the expectation of success.


2.2, Is psi due to electromagnetism?

The scientific evidence says no.  For more detail, see this article.


2.3, Is psi performed by the brain?

Intents in psi are frequently organized and formulated by the brain, but the evidence indicates that psi itself is not performed by the brain.  For more detail, see this article.


2.4, Can psi energy be created or destroyed?

The laws of quantum field theory tell us that energy can and DOES get created and destroyed all the time, but that it does so at such an equally matched rate that the end result is no net change. This means that in small areas and for small times, energy does get created and destroyed noticeably, and the effects of this are measureable.

The only thing keeping the conservation of energy balanced on the everyday macroscopic scale is probability. So long as the probabilities of creation and destruction are equal, there will not be any net creation or destruction. But one reasonable interpretation of abilities like micropsychokinesis might be that we possess the ability to manipulate probabilities. So there's no fundamental reason to think that psi is restricted to obeying the conservation of energy.

Many people find it conceptually easier to "gather" psi energy, rather than to simply generate it, but it also seems to work to generate energy.


2.5, What does the soul have to do with psi?

The soul can be defined as the part of the self which performs psi.  This part is sometimes referred to as will, but it means more than conscious will.  This part is sometimes referred to as self-awareness, but it means more than conscious self-awareness.  There is a deeper underlying level of the self beyond the brain which seems to be responsible for the actual performance of psi, and the term "soul" is often used to refer to this part of the self.

The term "mind" is usually used in an abstract sense to refer to the totality of the human brain and soul, consciousness, unconsciousness, and the complete self-awareness.  So the mind includes the brain, which can be used to formulate and organize the intent of what one is doing, and the soul, which is used to actually perform the abilities.


2.6, If I visualize or expect something to happen, does that mean it will?

Expectation alone will not result in psi, belief alone will not result in psi, wanting something will not result in psi, willing something will not result in psi, and visualizing something will not result in psi.  There is more to it than any of these actions alone can account for.

Performing an action with psi can be considered the synthesis of a well formed intent, the energy to make the intent happen, and a third step of deep expectation in the soul which actualizes the event and makes it occur.  Understanding what these three components mean at an experiential level comes as you practice psi.

3, Questions Relating Psi to Other Things:

3.1, What is the relationship between psi, magick, and chi?

See this article comparing these three arts.


3.2, Can I be a Christian and do psi?

Yes.  I am.  I have made my peace with God, and I find that psi strengthens my personal relationship with God.  It is up to you to see if this path also fits you.  Here are some verses you may find inspirational:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father."  --John 14:12

"And Jesus answered them, 'Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea," it will be done.'"  --Matthew 21:21

"You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits."  --Matthew 7:16-20

"Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit [breath]?  The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit [breath], but the mind that is between the two"  --Mary 5:10-11

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.  To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.  To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues."  --I Corinthians 12:4-11


3.3, What does psi have to do with spirituality?

Spirituality is central to much of psi.  Psi is a path involving using control over the self to exert control over reality, and of using awareness of the self to gain awareness about reality.  These abilities are ultimately obtained by closer intimacy and awareness with ones own soul and spiritual nature.


4, Questions about the practice of psi:

4.1, Why can't I get it to work?

There are a variety of reasons why one might have difficulty.

The first thing you should examine is whether or not you are obtaining good focus.  Controlling psi requires a focused mind, and this is gained by practicing focal meditation.

If you are trying to make a change with psi, the second thing you should examine is whether or not you truly expect it to work in the core of your being.  If you do not, it will not work.  You need to learn how to reach in and change the very nature of your inner expectations.

If you are trying to sense something with psi, the second thing you should examine is whether the information is coming from your brain or from your soul.  Information coming from your brain is often called "analytical overlay", and is often little more than imagination.  An important skill in the sensing arts is learning from experience how to distinguish input given by the brain from input that comes deeper from the soul.  This requires practice.

And, in summary, you may simply need more practice.  Psi is not an easy solution; it requires extensive dedication and practice.


4.2, How do I do aerokinesis, biokinesis, cryokinesis, electrokinesis, geokinesis, hydrokinesis, lunakinesis, pyrokinesis, terrakinesis, or *kinesis?

Let's say you were trying to pick up a bunch of stuff with your hands and move it to another location. Would you list the techniques as:

1. Picking up a shoe
2. Picking up a box
3. Picking up a book
4. Picking up a rock
5. Picking up a chair

Obviously this system of classification has no intrinsic meaning to the method of "picking something up". Likewise, for psychokinesis, the target of the psychokinesis has no necessary bearing on the technique used. There is only one psychokinesis, and there are two ways to do it. One is a direct form of psychokinesis, where something is directly changed. The second is an indirect form of psychokinesis, where a future is brought about without specifying the manner in which it happens. (And the lines even blur between these two.)  All of the abilities listed in the question are simply that.  If you feel that you are able to do one, but not another, then that is simply a psychological restraint that is holding you back.

For detail about how to perform kinesis, read the following article.


4.3, What is the solution to telepathic or empathic overload?

Meditation is the often overlooked cure for overload. People being overloaded by telapathy and empathy are like a floating leaf being overloaded by the wind which directs its path. But if you are well focused and well centered within yourself, then you will direct yourself rather than being directed externally, even while maintaining the capabilities of empathy and telepathy.

A person with a psi shield is isolated from connection with others, and even the untrained can often sense something "detached" or "isolated" about the shielded person, and it makes them uncomfortable around the shielded person. In addition, upon the failure of the shield, a person who focuses on shielding is left with only a fragile inside. In comparison, a person well-focused by meditation has a certain charismatic presence around others, and an inner strength which can be used to face and work with the sensory input at will, rather than hide from it.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 03:35:48 PM by kobok »
Latest article:  Construct Dynamics

Want to learn psi?  Check out our collection of psi articles.

November 22, 2005, 11:34:32 AM
Reply #1

Fou Lu

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All of the links to the articles are broken.  Are the articles still there?  Could you update the links if they are?

November 22, 2005, 12:09:33 PM
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ChezNips

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I went thru the article and found 3 broken links which I corrected.  All the others worked.  If you have any more problems, feel free to let us know.
some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

November 22, 2005, 03:24:56 PM
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Fou Lu

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Thanks.  I should have checked them all before saying they didn't work...

August 16, 2006, 06:09:12 AM
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solstice

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3.2

I Chorinthians 13:
...Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5: And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6: And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9: To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10: To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

August 16, 2006, 09:47:09 AM
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kakkarot

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Yeah for quoting out of context.

Those GIFTS are abilities granted by GOD through the Holy Spirit to whomever God desires to give them (typically people who've devoted themselves to God in a way that is pleasing to God (not by magical rituals), ie by the path God set out rather than a person's own path that they think will lead them to God). Magic can achieve similar, if not exactly the same, results but the difference is that you have to work to achieve the results in magic/psionic/qigong whereas if a god gives you the ability, you don't have to work at it.

~kakkarot
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 16, 2006, 12:07:25 PM
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Hech

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*nod* Exactly. In fact, that direct quote that you gave, most Christians believe that those gifts died a long time ago. Paul said that the gift of tongues and prophecy would not last, and then when the time for them was over, both wold die simultaniously. I believe that happened a long time ago, and that the gift of tongues was really only needed to witness and show nonbelievers who were restricted by a language barrier.

The gift of tongues hadn't been seen for hundreds of years until a new denomination arose during the recent years. I dont' see how God would have the gift on "hold" for a great many years and then just revive it. Most believe that the gift of prophecy and the gift of tongues have died hundreds of years ago, just as Paul said.


If any of this information is incorrect, could you please correct me with the reference from where you got the information?

August 16, 2006, 11:40:31 PM
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kobok

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Magic can achieve similar, if not exactly the same, results but the difference is that you have to work to achieve the results in magic/psionic/qigong whereas if a god gives you the ability, you don't have to work at it.

I think you're greatly mistaken, and I reference as evidence the story of Peter walking on water as told in Matthew 14:22-31.  The ability worked for Peter only as long as his expectation held.

Quote from: Hech
Most believe that the gift of prophecy and the gift of tongues have died hundreds of years ago, just as Paul said.

Many modern Christians believe that the "age of miracles" is over, but it seems that this is just because the "faith" which would have permitted this is quite rare.  In other words, they think there are no more gifts of the spirit because they don't have what it takes to operate theirs.  The gift of prophecy is still prominent in the world.

The verse that inspires the belief you spoke of is 1 Corinthians 13:8.  If you read the surrounding context, you can see that Paul is not predicting the demise of the gift of prophecy.  Paul is comparing the value of love to the other spiritual gifts, and saying that prophecy is a gift that is exercised only for moments at a time, while love is a spiritual character which can last forever.  He then concludes by saying that love is even greater than faith.
Latest article:  Construct Dynamics

Want to learn psi?  Check out our collection of psi articles.

August 17, 2006, 07:32:31 AM
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Hech

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The ability worked for Peter only as long as his expectation held.

No, the ability worked for Peter only as long as he was trusting in the Lord, faithful that he would carry him through. Are you saying that this was simply an act of kinesis based on expectation rather than a miricle based on the faith of God's diciple?


Many modern Christians believe that the "age of miracles" is over, but it seems that this is just because the "faith" which would have permitted this is quite rare.

Many modern Christians believe that the age of miracles is NOT over, and if you take a look in Africa, you can see miracles are almost a common occurance (prayer > healing). Even in respect to the USA, though the circumstances as well as the faith may not permit, miracles happen in my life all the time. I suppose you could pass that off as "faith" of prayer = spell of magick, but that's where my faith in God and His Word come in. I know that there is a difference.


The verse that inspires the belief you spoke of is 1 Corinthians 13:8.  If you read the surrounding context, you can see that Paul is not predicting the demise of the gift of prophecy.  Paul is comparing the value of love to the other spiritual gifts, and saying that prophecy is a gift that is exercised only for moments at a time, while love is a spiritual character which can last forever.

Well first, let me address the fact that spiritual gifts are Spirit-given abilities to edify other believers to the glory of God. These are gifts, and no man can fake or produce one. If you read 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 you will see that it says:

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

You see, not only does the Spirit determine who recieves these gifts, but the verse implies that each person will only have one of the spiritual gifts. Either way, as you see, these things are "gifts"; not to be confused with excersised ability through magick/psi or some sort of satanic worship.

Spiritual gifts are for edification, and that is seen in Ephesians 4:12. I'm assuming you have bible gateway up already (great site), so you can search there.

Also, I do believe that in I Corinthians, God and Paul are saying that three gifts will cease: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. The gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge have unquestionably ceased since the end of the apostolic age adn the completion of teh New Testament. The divine revelation was given during the foundational work of the apostles and prophets; when these men died, so did their gifts. Logically tongues has ceased as well, since all three are interlocked with assosiation in the verse.

In fact, it wasn't until the end of the 19th century that somebody claimed to speak in tongues, about 18 hundred years after the apostles. If tongues historically ceased, that includes prophecy and knowledge. Obviously I practice energetic principles and do not believe that precognition and such are impossible, but spiritual gifts and skill must not be confused.

Also, if you look in Deuteronomy, you'll see a verse that says:

Quote from: Deuteronomy
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...

In many other places of the bible, divination and witchcraft are grouped with murder and sexual sins, things detestable to the Lord.



I've posted a large enough post, my workout partner is here and my timing stratagies have to be on the dot, so I have to go now with that abrupt ending.

August 17, 2006, 10:17:53 AM
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kakkarot

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Quote from: Kobok
I think you're greatly mistaken, and I reference as evidence the story of Peter walking on water as told in Matthew 14:22-31.  The ability worked for Peter only as long as his expectation held.
Correction: The ability worked only as long as he held faith that his Lord could allow him to perform it. Subtle but important difference.

Quote from: Matthew14
27 But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 28 "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water." 29 "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.  30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
It easily seems that Jesus could be talking about Peter believing merely in the ability to walk on the water, but if this were so then why did Peter have to tell Jesus to tell him to come out on the water? His doubt, when he saw the wind, probably wasn't in his own ability to walk on the water, because he almost certainly believed that he had no ability of his own to do so, but his doubt was probably in the ability of his Lord to save him even in the face of the strong wind, ie he had enough faith to believe that Jesus could enable him to walk on the water, but not enough faith that Jesus could enable him to stand up against the high turbulance.

Quote from: Matthew8
24 Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping.  25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" 26 He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?"
As is seen here, the disciples, of which Peter is one, didn't trust that Jesus could save them because they didn't know how much power he had and they probably thought there were limits to what he could do. Thus, it only stands to reason that when Peter believed Jesus could enable Peter to walk on the water Peter still wouldn't have faith that Jesus could protect him from even the stormy winds. This lack of faith, based on a lack of understanding, is evident throughout all four gospels even past the point of Jesus' death, and only when the disciples saw Jesus was resurrected did they begin to believe that he had "all authority in Heaven and on Earth".


I'll reference the Holy Spirit coming upon the apostles "in power" from Acts chapter 1 and 2
1:4 On one occasion, while he [Jesus] was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
... 8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
... 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
... 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' 22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

The emphasis is that God is the one working the miracles through people, because He has decided to do so, and people know that God promises this to them when God puts His Holy Spirit upon them. I just went through all 93 references in the NIV translation for the "holy spirit" and if you read through those references too, you'll know beyond doubt that it is not faith in your expectation for the outcome to work, but faith that God will work the miracle for you that is the faith which enabled Peter to walk on the water, and which is supposed to enable the moving of mountains.

However, I also am Christian and do qi gong and magic, though not for any glory or power but simply from curiosity and boredom, and God has not had any real problem with this in my life, so it's not that I'm disputing the idea that a person can be christian and still do psionics, but that trying to use the Holy Spirit or the gifts of God as examples of psi is way off. :)


Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:8, which is indeed where the idea that miracles no longer work today comes from, in my (potentially wrong) viewpoint that passage is much too vague to be of any use in saying what would happen, when, why, or for how long (if always or for a temporary duration).
Quote
KJV 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Now, the faileth for charity is Strongs Number 1601, which means "to drop away; specificially, be driven out of one's course", whereas the failing of prophecies and vanishing of knowledge is Strongs Number 2673, which means "rendering entirely idle", and the ceasing of tounges is Strongs Number 3973, which means "pause" or "stop" ie "restrain, quit, desist, come to an end".
The passage seems to vague to me, like it's referencing something not specifically mentioned, as kobok mentioned it may be the comparison to enduring love as opposed to abilities which are only temporarily needed in each christian's life until they reach that perfect enduring love. But this is guesswork, as is any interpretation of this verse.


Hech: Did you just say that you believe those gifts all disappeared, then stated that they still continue in Africa and even to a lesser degree in America, and then say again that they don't happen anymore?
Quote from: Hech
Paul said that the gift of tongues and prophecy would not last... I believe that happened a long time ago
Quote from: Hech
and if you take a look in Africa, you can see miracles are almost a common occurance (prayer > healing). Even in respect to the USA, though the circumstances as well as the faith may not permit, miracles happen in my life all the time
Quote from: Hech
The gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge have unquestionably ceased since the end of the apostolic age adn the completion of teh New Testament.

Further, I disagree that the gifts of knowledge and prophecy have ceased, as God teaches me directly things which I would otherwise know nothing about and then proves this teaching through experiences and other sources of knowledge, and also God has told me to deliver quite a number of messages up until recently (prophecy in greek meant delivering a message on behalf of someone else).

As well, from my own personal studies and readings I've heard many accounts of all sorts of miracles still happening today, all over the world, so not only I but much of the world believes that God is still active :).


And lastly, in Deuteronomy, the "witchcraft" from the version you seem to be using is Strongs Number 6049 which is the very same word used to describe God "bringing forth" clouds in Genesis 9:14 "And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:." so it more likely has to do with manipulation of the worldly environment than anything as vague as "witchcraft". The "divination" has to do with determining by casting lots, and is probably best understood in the same context as when the one king of Israel sent messengers to enquire of the "God of Ekron" and Jehovah got pissed off because "His people" were ignoring Him.
2Ki 1:2 And Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber which was in Samaria, and became ill . So he sent messengers and said to them, "Go, inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I will recover from this sickness." 3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite , "Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and say to them, 'Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron?'

~kakkarot
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 11:04:18 AM by kakkarot »
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 17, 2006, 11:55:51 AM
Reply #10

Hech

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I agree with everything that you said in the first part of your post.




The middle of your post, which spoke of knowledge and prophecy and tongues, is something I'm not completely sure of. I know a great many Christians, good ones, that believe these things are over, and I know of a great many Christians, good ones, that believe these things are not over. Some of the greatest scholars and theologians say that this is a topic that can go either way.




The last part of your post asked if I contridicted myself. No, I didn't. There is a difference between spiritual gifts and miracles. I am undecided, as I said, about the aformentioned spiritual gifts. I'm leaning towards the "non-existant" side of things, but now, because of your post, it has got me thinking again. All in all, I'm not sure.

However, whether divine works of God in the form of miracles still happen I have made up my mind about, and I see that God is still quite active  :) I believe that all Christians should believe in a God that is actively invovled in our lives. The reference to Africa involved supernatural healings, this does not correlate with the aformentioned spiritual gifts.

In fact, I believe that God may still give a person some sort of "divine revalation" that would seem like a spiritual gift of knowledge or prophecy, but a gift implies that it is given by the Spirit to be used for edification. However, I'm talking about a one-time miracle of God in which the person is used as an instrument, rather than a continual gift that God has given.

Like I said, I'm still a bit confused about the whole gift thing  :wink: I will say, however, that I did not contradict myself and that while I'm unsure about the three spiritual gifts that we've been talking about, I have absolutely no doubt that God still performs miracles and that He is faithful to those who have faith in Him, those who love and serve Him.




Lastly, you finally ended your post by addressing the mentioning of witchcraft and such. I believe that direct worship or use of Satanic things, some of which I've experienced first hand, are definately wrong. However, I didn't have a chance to finish my post, as I said, and had I had that chance, I would have mentioned the things that you did right there.




All in all, I agree with everything that you said in your post except for the three spiritual gifts, with which, as I said, I'm unsure about at this point in time. The point of my post, as was yours, to really say how that verse was taken completely out of context and that there is a distinct difference between God given spiritual gifts and self-achieved ability. Like you, I practice the energetic arts (mainly psionics and some magick).

It's nice to hear from another lover of God, an active and obediant self-proclaimed Christian  :) I hope I was coherent this time around, sometimes people take the things that I say completely the wrong way, some of which I suppose is the fault of sender (me). I'm suprised that you thought I contradicted myself though, I could have sworn that I was clear in my post.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 12:03:34 PM by Hech »

August 17, 2006, 07:03:43 PM
Reply #11

kakkarot

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Hech: ok, i get what you're saying now.

kobok: ahaha, I didn't even realize when I quoted Acts 2:14-on in the previous post that I was quoting Peter himself saying that the gifts come from God :D Strong evidence to support the biblical idea that it's "faith that God can and will work in your life" that prompts God to work in your life, rather than faith in the desired result becoming reality. (It was only when I was at work and mentally reviewing what I'd posted that I realized Peter is the one who said that.)


And lastly, just for the purpose of complete knowledge in the topic, the other reason that I've heard mention recently as to why spiritual gifts and miracles supposedly don't happen anymore is the modern-ish notion that only the apostles could give the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of the hands, and there's no record of the ability to give "the ability to give the Holy Spirit to others" (yes I meant to double that up) to others after the apostles, so modern christians believe that the Holy Spirit no longer comes "in power" because only the apostles could "do that". This idea that only the apostles could give the Holy Spirit "in power" is easily destroyed by the link I provided in my previous post which gives every instance of the term "Holy Spirit" in the NIV and clearly illustrates that it is not even Jesus who gives the Holy Spirit, but God and God alone.

~kakkarot
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 17, 2006, 07:54:36 PM
Reply #12

Hech

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I've never heard of that belief among Christians, though I do not think you're lying, so perhaps it is rare or it escaped my knowledge? Obviously when the Lord left, he left us with His Spirit to guide us. In fact, during the very act of prayer, the spirit intercedes for us in groanings that words cannot touch. God is cool, ain't he?  :wink: :P

Alright, I would say that we're done here and that maybe we should get back onto the FAQ's article topic, except kobok has not replied and he may perhaps have some disagreements to voice.

August 17, 2006, 09:05:56 PM
Reply #13

kakkarot

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I'd never heard of that belief among christians either (about the HS supposedly only being given by the apostles) until this past sunday when I got into an argument with basically my whole church over the nature of the HS ^_^; I mean, it's so completely contrary to what the bible actually says that I found it incredible that anyone would believe it.

~kakkarot
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,  7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

August 18, 2006, 12:28:20 AM
Reply #14

kobok

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The ability worked for Peter only as long as his expectation held.

No, the ability worked for Peter only as long as he was trusting in the Lord, faithful that he would carry him through. Are you saying that this was simply an act of kinesis based on expectation rather than a miricle based on the faith of God's diciple?

This is reminiscent of the debates about whether or not chi and psi are the same thing, or whether or not psi and magick are fundamentally the same.

What do you think gifts of the spirit are?  Gifts of the spirit are gifts of the soul, and gifts of the soul are abilities of the soul, and abilities of the soul are called psi.  Are they miraculous?  That's more a question of how people are affected by them.  Do they come from God?  This is like asking if existence can be created by God and evolution can be true at the same time.  I have no trouble with both being true, that it is both psi, and from God.  They are not mutually exclusive, and thus, there is no contradiction.  Are the workings of the divine of less value if we become closer to understanding how they work?

"There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men."  -- 1 Corinthians 12:6


As for the Holy Spirit, the term is invoked occasionally in the scripture, after the fact, as an explanation for mysterious events by an unseen agent.  But the most accurate description of the Holy Spirit comes from Jesus's own description of it in John 14:15-30, where he describes it as a counselor given to each person which will guide them.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 12:30:42 AM by kobok »
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