Author Topic: The Falsehoods of Radical Chi Explained  (Read 113208 times)

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July 22, 2005, 04:39:21 AM
Reply #45

MONKJE

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Radical chi is not a falsehood, first of all, everything from/in between body and spirit is relative, as is father to son, to make the body stronger one must expend energy into the muscles in order for them to expand, Kaioken is when energy is expended to make energy stronger, because when you expend energy you are expanding it and strengthening it.
Cultivating energy is not the same as collecting it you do not cultivate energy, or become more powerful by storing energy in your body, but by using it, just as your muscles become stronger with more use, that is the true nature of the chi.
The body feeds the universe, before universe feeds body, storing energy makes it stale, and is the way of degeneration.

PS: I cannot believe the amount of fuss that has been made due to parallels formed between a cartoon and the real thing, if rad ki is not for you then dont do it, and for God's sake try not to waste time putting limits on your own mind and therefore separating yourself from your own energy, anything is achievable.

July 22, 2005, 05:54:59 AM
Reply #46

Darkduck

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I keep finding that funny :smilie: why automatically assume that we put limits on ourselves?
"Well, aside from sustaining massive internal injuries in a plane crash, and being chased by the army, the navy, and a troop of girl scouts, yeah, I'm, uh, just peachy."
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July 22, 2005, 08:31:50 AM
Reply #47

SleepWalker

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Radical chi is not a falsehood, first of all, everything from/in between body and spirit is relative, as is father to son, to make the body stronger one must expend energy into the muscles in order for them to expand, Kaioken is when energy is expended to make energy stronger, because when you expend energy you are expanding it and strengthening it.
Cultivating energy is not the same as collecting it you do not cultivate energy, or become more powerful by storing energy in your body, but by using it, just as your muscles become stronger with more use, that is the true nature of the chi.
The body feeds the universe, before universe feeds body, storing energy makes it stale, and is the way of degeneration.

PS: I cannot believe the amount of fuss that has been made due to parallels formed between a cartoon and the real thing, if rad ki is not for you then dont do it, and for God's sake try not to waste time putting limits on your own mind and therefore separating yourself from your own energy, anything is achievable.

Now this to me is something worth listening to, stagnation of chi through absorbing through hands caught me as ludicrous idiocy.
Whichever the direction the chi is flowing in or out it is flowing, stagnation is the direct opposite of that.
I didn't speak upon this in my reply earlier for it was one of the first things I viewed upon my return, it saddened me the limits proposed by some.
Can't is an illusion, fear holds no power in the light of understanding.
I do not imply you limit yourself Mr DarkDuck I just feel that others are, and inturn they push their limitations on the rest.
I much would prefer to hear from the person who first inspired the topic then someone denouncing that person.
This entire thread is built upon anger directed at a person for expressing their belief.
A belief cannot be wrong it simply is what it is.
The matter in which the systematic dismantlement took place was one of arrogance, though it is a confliction in belief it is not stated that this is the case.
Though I am not one fit to judge, as my belief like all others is unproven, the fact of the matter in which the destructive party mentioned ideas such definitive knowledge leads me to believe that knowledge is lacking for he claims things cannot be.
This is merely my belief.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 08:42:49 AM by SleepWalker »
How can you explain freedom, never having experienced it.
From the moment we ar born we conform to the physical world. In narrow awareness of all that there is to percieve.
Try Tachyon[/URL

July 22, 2005, 09:03:26 AM
Reply #48

Silver_Archer

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I find it most amusing that this ideology still finds some defenders. The world is a strange place, you'd have thought everyone has moved on by now.  :rolleyes:
<Forg> Everything is adjustable when you have a saw.

July 22, 2005, 09:10:45 AM
Reply #49

SleepWalker

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Any ideal is worth defending, it is someones belief and they have a right to it.
To act as this were not the case is to claim superiority, superiority claimed by an entity is far different then self-evident superiority.
In essence, knowing what it takes to be cool. :elephant:
How can you explain freedom, never having experienced it.
From the moment we ar born we conform to the physical world. In narrow awareness of all that there is to percieve.
Try Tachyon[/URL

July 22, 2005, 10:33:35 PM
Reply #50

Silver_Archer

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Where in my post did criticise 'MONKJE' for defending 'Radki'? That's right. Nowhere. I simply stated my amusement regarding the fact that there are still people defending 'Radki'. In other words, I was pointing and laughing. Deal with it. Have a nice day. :)
<Forg> Everything is adjustable when you have a saw.

July 23, 2005, 03:01:24 AM
Reply #51

SleepWalker

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And you are very welcome to do so, enjoy
agreement beats argument any day  :elephant: and the elephant is possibly even better
How can you explain freedom, never having experienced it.
From the moment we ar born we conform to the physical world. In narrow awareness of all that there is to percieve.
Try Tachyon[/URL

July 27, 2005, 11:47:23 PM
Reply #52

Lone Gunman

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Thanks for the post. Indeed most of the major areas surrounding false Qi practices have been covered. I personally believe that the human body is capable of many things, some more unbelievable than others, but questioning the authority should only be done when one develops his or her own immense skill. I'm getting sick of the lies relating to martial arts and the misconceptions related to energy work.

Just a quick note, a "Buddhist or Taoist" posture does not necessarily have to mean you convert to that religion. Eastern Qi practices can be for ANYONE of ANY belief. A simple Buddhist posture for example, is the Buddha Palm. Stand in a comfortable horse stance and place the palms together in a prayer-like position neatly in front of your chest, not too high and not too low. Feel the energy flowing through you. I can go through so many different techniques but for now I would just like to say that however one progresses, it will be slow. It will take time. And the limits are only in place when we find the human potenetial and I believe that has not yet been fully grasped by any martial artist or practioner of any art. There is always room for improvement somewhere, somehow.

And just one last thing. DRAGON BALL Z is NOT real. Nor is the original DB and DBGT.

Lone Gunman
Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without a moon or stars.

-Confucius

July 28, 2005, 03:01:52 AM
Reply #53

Darkduck

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And just one last thing. DRAGON BALL Z is NOT real. Nor is the original DB and DBGT.

Lone Gunman

"Well, aside from sustaining massive internal injuries in a plane crash, and being chased by the army, the navy, and a troop of girl scouts, yeah, I'm, uh, just peachy."
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July 28, 2005, 03:09:49 AM
Reply #54

SleepWalker

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That's awesome, and I beat the email notification to it.
I feel that would be useful alot.

It's a fun cartoon give it that much, it's hilarious
How can you explain freedom, never having experienced it.
From the moment we ar born we conform to the physical world. In narrow awareness of all that there is to percieve.
Try Tachyon[/URL

August 15, 2005, 10:46:19 PM
Reply #55

elixerpalm

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There is only one energy that permeates all things living and non-living. Although there is only one energy, you can find thousands of expressions of this one force that flows.
Th trick to being able to do things such as moving people or objects is to embrace a child-like mind set and have faith. Next, you need to relax physically and mentally and this is accomlished by way of meditation. Either of the sitting or standing variety. Standing is the fastest way to gain control over this force and express more of it.
Then the mind is used for many reasons- The mind is part of the key to projecting the force..
write me an E-mail if you wish to know more

August 24, 2005, 02:34:55 PM
Reply #56

Dark_Wanderer

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Hey I am DEFINATELY not defending the teens who watched too much DBZ and decided they could be a super saiyan :p
and I am well aware that Radical chi is for the most part a load of crap. However, there is one thing I'd like to say. ANYTHING is possible with time, training, concentration, belief, and devotion. The reason why noone while ever be able to create something similar to a Kamehameha or Ryu's Shinku Hadoken is because none of you believe that it is possible. Therefore, you have defeated yourselves before you even start. Who knows, maybe someday some psycho with WAY too much time on their hands will create something that destructive. Very unlikely and improabable yes, but NOT impossible. Anyways that was my two bits :biggrin: Keep practicing and remember to always brush up on your basics. Basics are the building blocks of everything else. Take care and good luck in your training.
When two swords clash there is no escape. Instead, one must move on calmly like a cool lotus blossoming in the midst of raging fire, and forcefully pierce the heavens.

September 07, 2005, 02:38:48 AM
Reply #57

RanmaBushiko

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Originally posted by the knowledgable Kendamu and Donjitsu2 here: http://www.ki-teachings.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1


This is for all those who still question that radki is useless. I will
pick apart the most basic and most referenced techniques in the radki
“canon” of techniques.

It seems to me that many of you radki kids are missing the point. We
have never said that being able to attack, defend, move, or knock out a
person without making physical contact is impossible. In fact, numerous
times we speak at great length regarding to use of “no touch” power. We
simple refer to skills that enable one to harm another with out making
physical contact as the Lin Kong Jing (powerful empty force) or
Kiaijutsu. We have never said that with ki training you cannot become stronger
or faster. We simply call those methods by different names like nei
jing training (for internal power) or Speed Gong training (gong means
skill, this skill is from the Shaolin temple). We have never said that you
cannot have incredible amounts of power in your strikes. We just call
these methods shi jing, fa jing, ect… You see just because a skill seems
“esoteric” doesn’t mean we are going to write it off as radki or
“fluff”. It is the method by which you are attempting to gain certain
“esoteric” skills that we may call into question. Not all training method are
created equal. The radki training may promise certain desirable skills.
But do they deliver? Through out its history radki has never been able
to “walk the walk” so to speak (though radki practitioners do try to
“talk the talk”). The traditional methods deliver every you could ever
want out of martial training system: Health, fighting ability, and even
the legendary powers so many seek. You just need to put in the training
time. For those of you who still feel that radki has some thing to
offer I have listed below the three most common radki techniques and they
form the basis of all other techniques. (I have not listed the ki ball
exercise because in reality the ki ball exercise is a traditional
training method for healers). Along with a discussion on the Ki blast, Ki
shield, and Power up, I have also included a discussion on the incorrect
radki usage of the word “jing”.


One of the first things you will have to understand about the proper
usage of Qi is the “4 Big Points”. The four big points are the things
truly necessary in utilizing your qi in daily life and especially in
combat. Without them your techniques will be, what Yiquan creator Wang,
Hsiang Zhai referred to as, “lifeless and without real power or spirit”.
The four big points to utilizing qi for combat are:

1. Correct Posture
2. Correct Breathing- (either Buddhist style of Taoist style)
3. Correct Bodily Mechanics
4. Correct use of Intent



**"Ki blast: Place one hand out and make a chi ball. Begin to let
energy flow into that ball making it so big that it’s as big as your hand
and you can grip it all the way around. When a ball of energy is made
that big, begin to fill your arm with Chi itself and look at your target
drawing imaginary lines at it so you may guide your chi blast along
those lines. Unleash the energy you had in your arm out onto the ball of
energy and let it propel it out to the target. (To make the chi blast
damage whoever ... see the blast going through them making a hole in
them.) "**

Notice how at no point does this description mention anything about
body mechanics, breathing, or posture. All the practitioner is given is a
bunch of visualization. And might I add that this is improper use of
visualization (intent). I mean would anyone expect to be able to throw a
good strong punch or kick without first being well versed in posture,
body mechanics, breathing and intent. Of course not. Even modern boxing
with its simplistic approach to throwing punches has rules for
breathing, posture, body mechanics, and focus (intent). At its very base level
you are taught to punch by having one foot in front of the other,
spread about shoulder width apart, shoulders square with your opponent,
guard up, head up, and to stay “light on your toes”. That is just proper
posture for boxing, which is much more simplistic then any other martial
art. I could write a whole paper on the mechanics of a boxer’s punch,
which would include focus, posture, body mechanics, and breathing. Yet,
in this description of a radki technique, when we are working with a
very subtle energy, we are given nothing to work with but visualization.
Is that a basis for a proper technique? I think not. While we are on
the subject of visualization: the radki kids didn’t even get that right.
We all know qi (ki) is led by the mind (yi). But, do we really need to
“lead our qi by the hand”? Of course not, qi has been flowing through
you since your conception – with you having to even think about it. So,
if we simply wish our qi to flow out of our bodies all we need to do is
extend it beyond our body. With enough internal power you can extend
your qi a great distance. However, to build up the kind of internal power
needed for that and especially the kind of internal power needed for
combat you will need to be doing some internal power training (like zhan
zhuang). That is another thing radki sites never mention: nei jing
(internal power) training. If you are lucky you might get a description of
basic seated meditation or I’ve even seen a SECTION of the Ba Duan Jin
(a basic qigong). Trust me that isn’t nearly enough to build the kind
of power needed for martial applications.





**Ki Shield : Place both hands out in front of you . See within your
mind energy flowing from your Kae-dem into your arms . Then from your
arms to your hands . You will know when the energy is there . When you can
feel the energy in your palms, within your mind make the energy itself
expand around your hand"s however big you want it to be (the smaller
the easier ) . Hold it there at however big you have gotten it to be and
begin to visualize that Energy field you created upon your hands
turning into glass. The harder you focus on that glass ( shield ) the thicker
it will be."**

Now this one is the funny one. It pretty does all the bad things the ki
blast does, as I mentioned above. However, it goes a step further:
manipulating qi after it has left your body.
With that said lets look at the why of this technique. Why would be
need a ki shield? To block “ki attacks”. Well, that won’t work because all
you doing is bringing ki out and letting surround you (which you
actually aren’t doing for those of you who didn’t read the above links). How
is that any different from the ki that is already on your skin. A
non-physical attack obviously has no problem going through the qi that flows
on the Lou channels of your skin so why would it have trouble if you
somehow managed to get qi to form a shell around you (just off the
surface of your skin)? It wouldn’t. Then maybe it is for defending against
physical attacks. Sorry, no. Since you aren’t actually building a shield
of qi around you, you wouldn’t stopping anything.





**"Power Up: This technique is as strong as you make it.
Sit down, in your mind and begin to draw in energy all over into all
points of your body. Have your eyes shut and just let energy flow into
you Now do this for however long you wish ( the longer the bigger the
power ) . When you feel that you have as much energy that you want, stand
up and have your head bowed sort of like a dramatic scene. Picture the
worse thing that has happened to you like perhaps a death in your
family and let that get you angry. When you get angry and you know it have
your eyes and face shoot your eyes open and yell letting out that energy
like a flare out which will probably quadruple your power for around 10
seconds or however you hold it out ( do this when your not tired but
hyper for better results )."**

Along with breaking the same rules as the ki blast this one also goes a
step further – just in a different direction then the ki shield. This
technique has you drawing in qi from points all over your body. The
reason this is wrong is that there are certain points on your body where qi
actually flows out from (like the palms and fingertips). Drawing energy
in from points like that will cause stagnation of qi. Qi stagnation is
a very bad thing and can cause severe illness. It also has you to make
yourself feel angry. Working with energy and being angry is bad for the
spirit and can also cause illness and damage to the internal organs.
When do energy practice you will want to be calm and focused, not angry.
Xingyiquan master Dai Long Bang (1750 a.d) echoes these views in one of
his treatises on internal power training:
“Before practice - The stomach should be neither too full nor too
empty, the mind should not be preoccupied with other affairs, do not
practice when angry. When hungry one has no energy, too full and the stomach
will be injured. Extraneous thoughts harm the brain. Anger harms the
spirit.”

The author of this technique also disregards exactly ‘how’ to flare out
the energy (as if one could do such a thing).

Often I hear the radki-ka talk about Jing. Except they seem to have
really bastardized this word. Within the radki community jing is meant to
mean “compressed ki”. This is total crap and anyone with any knowledge
of internal martial arts can tell you otherwise. Jing is a Chinese word
and has two different meanings (a Chinese homonym if you will). In one
sense Jing relates to the three treasures of man and translates to mean
“essence”. It is the primal energy you get from you parents that makes
you, physically you. It is closely related to bodily fluids, especially
semen and menstrual blood. In another sense jing can be seen as meaning
“skillful or refined strength” (as opposed to brute strength). However,
it can also mean “internal strength”, as it has come to be translated
by modern internal martial artists (for good reason I assure you). I,
and many other internal martial artists, translate the word jing both
ways at the same time: jing – “internally refined strength or power”. Any
other translations outside the already established translations of this
Chinese word are incorrect. There is simply no other way of saying it.
We know what the word means and it CANNOT be translated to mean
anything close to “compressed ki”. Sorry, but deal with it.

I think that should just about do it. Feel free to post questions or
arguments.


I will probably only post once here.  I'm a 6 and a half year ki user, and as such, I've been around long enough that I decided, upon finding this board, that I'd interject on the stuff for Radical Ki.  Please read this post with an open mind, not a closed one like I've found so many Traditional Ki users to have.

I was trained before the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened.  I follow the middle path, using both when necessary, and I always have, and always will.
Radical Ki was originally not a method of duplicating Dragonball Z techniques so much as it was duplicating techniques in general, however, DBZers and Roleplayers came along, and started acting like idiots...(God, I STILL Can remember morons going and saying "I can do a Kamehameha!"), and then the split happened as a problem because of that.  I also remember how everyone that went to the Traditional Ki side said that everyone in Radical Ki's techniques were flawed because "The techniques you're using are messing with your mind."  Anything said against this that had any proof was also sent straight into that, or chalked up as BS right then and there, no listening to the person even if they had an actual event happen in front of them that had no way of being explained unless they were into radical ki in the first place.
However, this doesn't mean that Radical Ki people may not have stumbled upon SOMETHING.  I once was in the middle of a pool with some kid I knew that I was training, and joking around with him, about ki techniques and the like, and he tried something, and part of his hair went from straight black to blond in several parts for the middle...possibly due to his aura, or possibly due to something else.  This could be that "Super Saiyan" thing everyone's looking for, or some weird aura transformation, or something totally different.  I don't know.  But once I saw that, along with his little brother seeing it as well, I realized that argueing with normal people was futile, gave the normal ki boards the finger, and went on my own path.

I agree with Koujiryuu on the problems with the ki techniques.  Visualization is a problem for manipulating ki.  However, back when I started, there was only breathing techniques, and MysteryShadow didn't have those explained fully on his webpage.
HOWEVER, manipulating Ki outside your body IS possible, since your mind makes a temporary aura around it, keeping it stable to a certain point.  The further it goes away from your body, the less stable it gets...so stuff like the Kamehameha isn't possible.  Manipulating ki over your body in your aura is all good and all, but it doesn't work against some stuff.  For example, one of my students figured out how to make a Ki Knife, and it went through that natural body shield like a hot knife through butter.  It took me about 5 attempts to grab it with my ki to yank that stupid thing out, too.  It hurt badly, and gave me a headache.  However, a short range ki shield worked wonders against it going into my body.

Ki blasts, as MysteryShadow taught, also worked well at first, but people quickly made stupid versions of those.  I remember teaching a student some of the techniques for Ki blasts that were on his site, and me and him feeling the pressure from the two ki blasts colliding, about 5 and a half years ago.

However, as I've come to go through ki, and worked out how it worked with the body, I realized that though the breathing techniques do work...there's some problems with them as well.  Energy from your surroundings isn't meant to be taken in like the techniques have you take it in.  It's supposed to be used, but it isn't supposed to be ingested into your aura so easily.  Using your own power, though weaker in the short run, keeps blockages from happening, and helps you get in touch with it easier.  Your ki is hooked up to your nervous system, so it's possible to connect with it, and "Talk" with it...asking it questions mentally, and eventually hearing it's replies.

For Powerups, breathing exercises works well, if you wish to risk chakra damage in the long run, like I felt when I touched it.  It could just be that it'll damage me alone, but I'd rather not risk it myself, and so I chose to keep from having to use it as much as possible.
Ki users back when I started out documented working Ki shields, however, when the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened, most of that information was lost, due to forum moderators, or web people that weren't bright enough to realize that the technique worked.
For example.
One of my first trainers in Ki, was a man that went by the name of Aaron.  He was asked by a friend to test a Kaio Ken powerup technique that they had developed.  He was somewhat injured at the time.  Aaron tried the technique, and his injury started spraying blood out like a small, tiny geyser.  So please, don't claim that most of this stuff doesn't work, or that the stuff possibly can't work.  Radical Ki was originally just people trying to see if techniques could be duplicated from anime.  Not a whole split path, not this, or that, just if it worked.

For those that wish to have a "Powerup" that works well under any situation, and doesn't have these problems, I'll put a working Kaio Ken technique that I got my hands on before it was lost.  Feel free to call it what you wish, but don't re-name it, since the technique isn't yours, nor was made by you.

Kaio Ken

First off, you'll have to know what an average pyramid looks like with four sides.  Visualize it, and now imagine another one, upside down, so they're connected at the base.  Do you know what I'm talking about?  It looks something like this:
/|\
\|/
Now, make one of those around your tan tien.  not a filled in one with ki, just the walls made out of ki, all connected to be a perfect crystal like that.
If you wish to double the output, make another one, somewhat bigger, over the one you just made.
Tripling the output of ki that's being magnified by these basic lenses would be to make yet another one around the first two.
And So on, and Ect.
I have tested this technique, and gotten immediate results every time, as well as the creator, who's lost to the internet, by now.

However, this does not work without a secondary technique, to help focus it.  You have to focus your aura, imagining it, and willing it to shift so it will hold the ki in, and let it shift your body, instead of dissipating rapidly like normal ki techniques do.

Go ahead and try it.  I've felt ki leaving my body doubled, tripled, or even more for the rate of how much ki is going out of my body.

Do you understand now?  This is only one of many techniques that was lost because people decided, immediately, that Traditional Ki was right, and anyone studying Radical Ki, or anything automatically associated with it, was wrong.

In reference to your post, Dark_Wanderer, on the idea of the Shinkuu Hadouken, have you ever tried making a ki ball inside a ki ball?  That's pretty much what I figured he was doing, and that seems to work effectively for an attack, because his attack hit multiple times.  The only way that would work would be for someone to make a ki ball inside another ki ball.

And As for the Moderator that will review this post, please make sure this doesn't get deleted.  I've been trying to help people that will listen realize things like this, but nearly noone ever does anymore.  They always think that Radical Ki will give them instant power, or Traditional Ki is absolutely right, and never go and look at the middle ground, or the fact that there IS a middle ground, and for true understanding of how ki works, you have to follow the middle ground, and not go on one path, or the other.
Ranma Bushiko
RanmaB@yahoo.com

An old Radki user, still working to refine how it was originally taught.  I've been studying since 1998, for 15 years of the stuff.

I've worked as a mentor online on AIM and MSN for the past 10 years of that time, as well.

If you want to ask me about Astral Projection, Radki, or anything else, I'll give you advice.

September 07, 2005, 08:45:36 AM
Reply #58

DownRodeo

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I will probably only post once here.  I'm a 6 and a half year ki user, and as such, I've been around long enough that I decided, upon finding this board, that I'd interject on the stuff for Radical Ki.  Please read this post with an open mind, not a closed one like I've found so many Traditional Ki users to have.

You're 6 and a half years old? Or do you have been using Rad ki Techniques for 6 and a half years? I'll assume you meant the latter, in which case I will state that I'm pretty sure 'radki' as a concept has existed only 4 and a half years. Im sure Kendamu could clear that one up properly for us, however. Kendamu helped create radki mixing the concepts of psionics and qi. I assume they did this because the mere Idea of psionics mixed with chi is probably the closest thing one could get to copying anime techniques with a tiny (and I mean tiny) shred of credibility.   Adressing your second sentence, concerning 'open-mindedness', I would like to ask you a question; Have you ever considered that YOU are totally and uterrly NOT open minded? You make a small attempt to validate your style of energy work with us by saying some cryptic prattle about 'I walk the path in the middle', when in actual fact what you have suggested in your post is plain, straight and simple new age radki rubbish. You say you agree with Kouji's post and yet you take none of the important factors of real energy work into account other than breathing (ie: posture, body mechanics ect.) So stop trying to say you adhere to traditional qigong principles when you still quite clearly live in a fantasy world. At best you are just practicing some inefficient variant of psionics, of which I am now sure is a suggestion that all the psions will be highly offended at.

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I was trained before the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened.  I follow the middle path, using both when necessary, and I always have, and always will.

There was NEVER a split. Radki was never part of actual qigong, or any other eastern or western energetic practice.

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Radical Ki was originally not a method of duplicating Dragonball Z techniques so much as it was duplicating techniques in general, however, DBZers and Roleplayers came along, and started acting like idiots...(God, I STILL Can remember morons going and saying "I can do a Kamehameha!"), and then the split happened as a problem because of that.  I also remember how everyone that went to the Traditional Ki side said that everyone in Radical Ki's techniques were flawed because "The techniques you're using are messing with your mind."  Anything said against this that had any proof was also sent straight into that, or chalked up as BS right then and there, no listening to the person even if they had an actual event happen in front of them that had no way of being explained unless they were into radical ki in the first place.
However, this doesn't mean that Radical Ki people may not have stumbled upon SOMETHING.  I once was in the middle of a pool with some kid I knew that I was training, and joking around with him, about ki techniques and the like, and he tried something, and part of his hair went from straight black to blond in several parts for the middle...possibly due to his aura, or possibly due to something else.  This could be that "Super Saiyan" thing everyone's looking for, or some weird aura transformation, or something totally different.  I don't know.  But once I saw that, along with his little brother seeing it as well, I realized that argueing with normal people was futile, gave the normal ki boards the finger, and went on my own path.

You have students? Someone who states that uncertainty of what radical ki actually is, whether its of any REAL benefit, (and so on)  is teaching people about it?

Evidence: "this doesn't mean Radical Ki people may not have stumbled upon SOMETHING" (To clarify: You teach 'something' meaning, you don't actually know what you are teaching. It would help if you really told us what the benifit was, as most people wont see the benefit of your hair changing to a bright un-natural colour.  Don't know about you, but I can only see the people who make hair dye products getting excited about the above passage.)

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I agree with Koujiryuu on the problems with the ki techniques.  Visualization is a problem for manipulating ki.  However, back when I started, there was only breathing techniques, and MysteryShadow didn't have those explained fully on his webpage.


So, essentially you are saying what was available was only an aspect of energy work, and that aspect in itself was only partially complete. Scant at best then?

Quote
HOWEVER, manipulating Ki outside your body IS possible, since your mind makes a temporary aura around it, keeping it stable to a certain point.  The further it goes away from your body, the less stable it gets...so stuff like the Kamehameha isn't possible.  Manipulating ki over your body in your aura is all good and all, but it doesn't work against some stuff.  For example, one of my students figured out how to make a Ki Knife, and it went through that natural body shield like a hot knife through butter.  It took me about 5 attempts to grab it with my ki to yank that stupid thing out, too.  It hurt badly, and gave me a headache.  However, a short range ki shield worked wonders against it going into my body.


Again, this all sounds like a terribly infantile version of psionics. Once again I am shocked that you have students, especially since you have trouble dealing with their 'ki-knife' attack!


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Ki blasts, as MysteryShadow taught, also worked well at first, but people quickly made stupid versions of those.  I remember teaching a student some of the techniques for Ki blasts that were on his site, and me and him feeling the pressure from the two ki blasts colliding, about 5 and a half years ago.

So, assuming radki existed before it actually did, you, after training in the discipline for only a year were able to not only learn the ki blast technique, but to teach it to another to the degree that both you and him were able to 'feel the pressure'? This is a remarkable feat! Especially since many people who train for such simmilair feats, such as Lin Kong Jing/empty force and
Kiaijutsu, require the time of their whole life to master such powers. ***NOTE***If you do care to rebuttle to this post, I would like to ask how long the pressure was felt for? Perhaps it is better to ask how long the duration of both of your 'blasts' lasted for instead...

Quote
However, as I've come to go through ki, and worked out how it worked with the body, I realized that though the breathing techniques do work...there's some problems with them as well.  Energy from your surroundings isn't meant to be taken in like the techniques have you take it in.  It's supposed to be used, but it isn't supposed to be ingested into your aura so easily.  Using your own power, though weaker in the short run, keeps blockages from happening, and helps you get in touch with it easier.  Your ki is hooked up to your nervous system, so it's possible to connect with it, and "Talk" with it...asking it questions mentally, and eventually hearing it's replies.

Do you care to list the problems breathing creates? I for one know that when I breathe I stay alive :) I don't have many problems with breathing... If your second and third sentences are an attempt to adress some of the problems, they don't make a lot of sense and don't have much to do with breathing.

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For Powerups, breathing exercises works well, if you wish to risk chakra damage in the long run, like I felt when I touched it.  It could just be that it'll damage me alone, but I'd rather not risk it myself, and so I chose to keep from having to use it as much as possible.
Ki users back when I started out documented working Ki shields, however, when the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened, most of that information was lost, due to forum moderators, or web people that weren't bright enough to realize that the technique worked.
For example.
One of my first trainers in Ki, was a man that went by the name of Aaron.  He was asked by a friend to test a Kaio Ken powerup technique that they had developed.  He was somewhat injured at the time.  Aaron tried the technique, and his injury started spraying blood out like a small, tiny geyser.  So please, don't claim that most of this stuff doesn't work, or that the stuff possibly can't work.  Radical Ki was originally just people trying to see if techniques could be duplicated from anime.  Not a whole split path, not this, or that, just if it worked.

See you lost me right when you said 'power ups', I know its only semantics, but its not a good idea to say in one instance "These morons who said they could do Kamaehama!!" and then to say/use terminology like, "For powerups" or "Kaio ken", it doesn't help you in the slightest. Also I would like to add that most traditional qi practicies would laugh at the idea of a 'ki shield'. You are arguing against 5000+ years of tried, tested and established energy manipulation/cultivation systems. See Darduck's articles on qi gong and the other 'body energy' articles here for further details: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?board=71.0.

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For those that wish to have a "Powerup" that works well under any situation, and doesn't have these problems, I'll put a working Kaio Ken technique that I got my hands on before it was lost.  Feel free to call it what you wish, but don't re-name it, since the technique isn't yours, nor was made by you.

"Feel free to call it what you wish, but don't re-name it" If I were to take that literally....Well, I think I know what you mean. In which case, I doubt the universe cares for the semantics, especially of a technique which is dubious at best and named after a move in an animie.

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Kaio Ken

First off, you'll have to know what an average pyramid looks like with four sides.  Visualize it, and now imagine another one, upside down, so they're connected at the base.  Do you know what I'm talking about?  It looks something like this:
/|\
\|/
Now, make one of those around your tan tien.  not a filled in one with ki, just the walls made out of ki, all connected to be a perfect crystal like that.
If you wish to double the output, make another one, somewhat bigger, over the one you just made.
Tripling the output of ki that's being magnified by these basic lenses would be to make yet another one around the first two.
And So on, and Ect.
I have tested this technique, and gotten immediate results every time, as well as the creator, who's lost to the internet, by now.

However, this does not work without a secondary technique, to help focus it.  You have to focus your aura, imagining it, and willing it to shift so it will hold the ki in, and let it shift your body, instead of dissipating rapidly like normal ki techniques do.

Go ahead and try it.  I've felt ki leaving my body doubled, tripled, or even more for the rate of how much ki is going out of my body.

Do you understand now?  This is only one of many techniques that was lost because people decided, immediately, that Traditional Ki was right, and anyone studying Radical Ki, or anything automatically associated with it, was wrong.

Im fighting the urge to laugh...out loud...LOL...sorry....LOL :x So now you are talking about lenses...and again qi shields...And worst of all you talk about qi leaving your body, which is the last thing you want, qi according to my understanding of qigong, is supposed to 'sit in the body'. What you are proposing is to make it leave your body, cultivating qi and throwing it away seems like a great waste of time, effort and energy (no pun intended).

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In reference to your post, Dark_Wanderer, on the idea of the Shinkuu Hadouken, have you ever tried making a ki ball inside a ki ball?  That's pretty much what I figured he was doing, and that seems to work effectively for an attack, because his attack hit multiple times.  The only way that would work would be for someone to make a ki ball inside another ki ball.

Self explanitory, but, I'll comment anyway. My understanding of the ole 'ki-ball' technique was that it was in fact...rubbish! haha! Why? Because actual masters of esoteric energies, like Chris Crudelli off "Mind, body and Kick ass moves" for one showed that it was a flow of qi between the hands, NOT a ball. I have many other practitioners online say it is messing around with ones aura and not your qi. So two different interpretations there, neither of which involve a ball.

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And As for the Moderator that will review this post, please make sure this doesn't get deleted.  I've been trying to help people that will listen realize things like this, but nearly noone ever does anymore.  They always think that Radical Ki will give them instant power, or Traditional Ki is absolutely right, and never go and look at the middle ground, or the fact that there IS a middle ground, and for true understanding of how ki works, you have to follow the middle ground, and not go on one path, or the other.
Ranma Bushiko
RanmaB@yahoo.com

We'll you're lucky, my original reply got deleted! *winks at Remakai* The Bottom line is, although you are probably quite correct that traditional qi isn't totally correct, it is far closer than radical Ki will ever be, since radical Ki is based on 'qi' only in name and nothing else. In reality 'Trad qi' and 'radki' are concepts, the truth path is not in the middle, since in reality there is not middle ground between them. You are also quite right in asking us all to keep an open mind, but you should also do the same. And hell, maybe I have stated a misconcenception or two in the above passage, the difference is that if someone points it out, I will take that as an oppourtunity for self reflection and fix any misconception that I have, and any fallacies that I have made/said.

ps. Someone reminded me. there is always the 'radki challange', currently real energy cultivation/manipulation systems are 1 - 0 up, you could attemp to balance the score! Or perhaps enter the 'middle of the road' team, which Im sure donjitsu2 would appreciate filming aswell.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2005, 09:05:34 AM by DownRodeo »
"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies on the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers... and you've got to make it stop!"
Mario Savio

September 07, 2005, 10:49:49 AM
Reply #59

RanmaBushiko

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I will probably only post once here.  I'm a 6 and a half year ki user, and as such, I've been around long enough that I decided, upon finding this board, that I'd interject on the stuff for Radical Ki.  Please read this post with an open mind, not a closed one like I've found so many Traditional Ki users to have.

You're 6 and a half years old? Or do you have been using Rad ki Techniques for 6 and a half years? I'll assume you meant the latter, in which case I will state that I'm pretty sure 'radki' as a concept has existed only 4 and a half years. Im sure Kendamu could clear that one up properly for us, however. Kendamu helped create radki mixing the concepts of psionics and qi. I assume they did this because the mere Idea of psionics mixed with chi is probably the closest thing one could get to copying anime techniques with a tiny (and I mean tiny) shred of credibility.   Adressing your second sentence, concerning 'open-mindedness', I would like to ask you a question; Have you ever considered that YOU are totally and uterrly NOT open minded? You make a small attempt to validate your style of energy work with us by saying some cryptic prattle about 'I walk the path in the middle', when in actual fact what you have suggested in your post is plain, straight and simple new age radki rubbish. You say you agree with Kouji's post and yet you take none of the important factors of real energy work into account other than breathing (ie: posture, body mechanics ect.) So stop trying to say you adhere to traditional qigong principles when you still quite clearly live in a fantasy world. At best you are just practicing some inefficient variant of psionics, of which I am now sure is a suggestion that all the psions will be highly offended at.

Quote
I was trained before the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened.  I follow the middle path, using both when necessary, and I always have, and always will.

There was NEVER a split. Radki was never part of actual qigong, or any other eastern or western energetic practice.

Quote
Radical Ki was originally not a method of duplicating Dragonball Z techniques so much as it was duplicating techniques in general, however, DBZers and Roleplayers came along, and started acting like idiots...(God, I STILL Can remember morons going and saying "I can do a Kamehameha!"), and then the split happened as a problem because of that.  I also remember how everyone that went to the Traditional Ki side said that everyone in Radical Ki's techniques were flawed because "The techniques you're using are messing with your mind."  Anything said against this that had any proof was also sent straight into that, or chalked up as BS right then and there, no listening to the person even if they had an actual event happen in front of them that had no way of being explained unless they were into radical ki in the first place.
However, this doesn't mean that Radical Ki people may not have stumbled upon SOMETHING.  I once was in the middle of a pool with some kid I knew that I was training, and joking around with him, about ki techniques and the like, and he tried something, and part of his hair went from straight black to blond in several parts for the middle...possibly due to his aura, or possibly due to something else.  This could be that "Super Saiyan" thing everyone's looking for, or some weird aura transformation, or something totally different.  I don't know.  But once I saw that, along with his little brother seeing it as well, I realized that argueing with normal people was futile, gave the normal ki boards the finger, and went on my own path.

You have students? Someone who states that uncertainty of what radical ki actually is, whether its of any REAL benefit, (and so on)  is teaching people about it?

Evidence: "this doesn't mean Radical Ki people may not have stumbled upon SOMETHING" (To clarify: You teach 'something' meaning, you don't actually know what you are teaching. It would help if you really told us what the benifit was, as most people wont see the benefit of your hair changing to a bright un-natural colour.  Don't know about you, but I can only see the people who make hair dye products getting excited about the above passage.)

Quote
I agree with Koujiryuu on the problems with the ki techniques.  Visualization is a problem for manipulating ki.  However, back when I started, there was only breathing techniques, and MysteryShadow didn't have those explained fully on his webpage.


So, essentially you are saying what was available was only an aspect of energy work, and that aspect in itself was only partially complete. Scant at best then?

Quote
HOWEVER, manipulating Ki outside your body IS possible, since your mind makes a temporary aura around it, keeping it stable to a certain point.  The further it goes away from your body, the less stable it gets...so stuff like the Kamehameha isn't possible.  Manipulating ki over your body in your aura is all good and all, but it doesn't work against some stuff.  For example, one of my students figured out how to make a Ki Knife, and it went through that natural body shield like a hot knife through butter.  It took me about 5 attempts to grab it with my ki to yank that stupid thing out, too.  It hurt badly, and gave me a headache.  However, a short range ki shield worked wonders against it going into my body.


Again, this all sounds like a terribly infantile version of psionics. Once again I am shocked that you have students, especially since you have trouble dealing with their 'ki-knife' attack!


Quote
Ki blasts, as MysteryShadow taught, also worked well at first, but people quickly made stupid versions of those.  I remember teaching a student some of the techniques for Ki blasts that were on his site, and me and him feeling the pressure from the two ki blasts colliding, about 5 and a half years ago.

So, assuming radki existed before it actually did, you, after training in the discipline for only a year were able to not only learn the ki blast technique, but to teach it to another to the degree that both you and him were able to 'feel the pressure'? This is a remarkable feat! Especially since many people who train for such simmilair feats, such as Lin Kong Jing/empty force and
Kiaijutsu, require the time of their whole life to master such powers. ***NOTE***If you do care to rebuttle to this post, I would like to ask how long the pressure was felt for? Perhaps it is better to ask how long the duration of both of your 'blasts' lasted for instead...

Quote
However, as I've come to go through ki, and worked out how it worked with the body, I realized that though the breathing techniques do work...there's some problems with them as well.  Energy from your surroundings isn't meant to be taken in like the techniques have you take it in.  It's supposed to be used, but it isn't supposed to be ingested into your aura so easily.  Using your own power, though weaker in the short run, keeps blockages from happening, and helps you get in touch with it easier.  Your ki is hooked up to your nervous system, so it's possible to connect with it, and "Talk" with it...asking it questions mentally, and eventually hearing it's replies.

Do you care to list the problems breathing creates? I for one know that when I breathe I stay alive :) I don't have many problems with breathing... If your second and third sentences are an attempt to adress some of the problems, they don't make a lot of sense and don't have much to do with breathing.

Quote
For Powerups, breathing exercises works well, if you wish to risk chakra damage in the long run, like I felt when I touched it.  It could just be that it'll damage me alone, but I'd rather not risk it myself, and so I chose to keep from having to use it as much as possible.
Ki users back when I started out documented working Ki shields, however, when the split between Radical Ki and Traditional Ki happened, most of that information was lost, due to forum moderators, or web people that weren't bright enough to realize that the technique worked.
For example.
One of my first trainers in Ki, was a man that went by the name of Aaron.  He was asked by a friend to test a Kaio Ken powerup technique that they had developed.  He was somewhat injured at the time.  Aaron tried the technique, and his injury started spraying blood out like a small, tiny geyser.  So please, don't claim that most of this stuff doesn't work, or that the stuff possibly can't work.  Radical Ki was originally just people trying to see if techniques could be duplicated from anime.  Not a whole split path, not this, or that, just if it worked.

See you lost me right when you said 'power ups', I know its only semantics, but its not a good idea to say in one instance "These morons who said they could do Kamaehama!!" and then to say/use terminology like, "For powerups" or "Kaio ken", it doesn't help you in the slightest. Also I would like to add that most traditional qi practicies would laugh at the idea of a 'ki shield'. You are arguing against 5000+ years of tried, tested and established energy manipulation/cultivation systems. See Darduck's articles on qi gong and the other 'body energy' articles here for further details: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?board=71.0.

Quote
For those that wish to have a "Powerup" that works well under any situation, and doesn't have these problems, I'll put a working Kaio Ken technique that I got my hands on before it was lost.  Feel free to call it what you wish, but don't re-name it, since the technique isn't yours, nor was made by you.

"Feel free to call it what you wish, but don't re-name it" If I were to take that literally....Well, I think I know what you mean. In which case, I doubt the universe cares for the semantics, especially of a technique which is dubious at best and named after a move in an animie.

Quote
Kaio Ken

First off, you'll have to know what an average pyramid looks like with four sides.  Visualize it, and now imagine another one, upside down, so they're connected at the base.  Do you know what I'm talking about?  It looks something like this:
/|\
\|/
Now, make one of those around your tan tien.  not a filled in one with ki, just the walls made out of ki, all connected to be a perfect crystal like that.
If you wish to double the output, make another one, somewhat bigger, over the one you just made.
Tripling the output of ki that's being magnified by these basic lenses would be to make yet another one around the first two.
And So on, and Ect.
I have tested this technique, and gotten immediate results every time, as well as the creator, who's lost to the internet, by now.

However, this does not work without a secondary technique, to help focus it.  You have to focus your aura, imagining it, and willing it to shift so it will hold the ki in, and let it shift your body, instead of dissipating rapidly like normal ki techniques do.

Go ahead and try it.  I've felt ki leaving my body doubled, tripled, or even more for the rate of how much ki is going out of my body.

Do you understand now?  This is only one of many techniques that was lost because people decided, immediately, that Traditional Ki was right, and anyone studying Radical Ki, or anything automatically associated with it, was wrong.

Im fighting the urge to laugh...out loud...LOL...sorry....LOL :x So now you are talking about lenses...and again qi shields...And worst of all you talk about qi leaving your body, which is the last thing you want, qi according to my understanding of qigong, is supposed to 'sit in the body'. What you are proposing is to make it leave your body, cultivating qi and throwing it away seems like a great waste of time, effort and energy (no pun intended).

Quote
In reference to your post, Dark_Wanderer, on the idea of the Shinkuu Hadouken, have you ever tried making a ki ball inside a ki ball?  That's pretty much what I figured he was doing, and that seems to work effectively for an attack, because his attack hit multiple times.  The only way that would work would be for someone to make a ki ball inside another ki ball.

Self explanitory, but, I'll comment anyway. My understanding of the ole 'ki-ball' technique was that it was in fact...rubbish! haha! Why? Because actual masters of esoteric energies, like Chris Crudelli off "Mind, body and Kick ass moves" for one showed that it was a flow of qi between the hands, NOT a ball. I have many other practitioners online say it is messing around with ones aura and not your qi. So two different interpretations there, neither of which involve a ball.

Quote
And As for the Moderator that will review this post, please make sure this doesn't get deleted.  I've been trying to help people that will listen realize things like this, but nearly noone ever does anymore.  They always think that Radical Ki will give them instant power, or Traditional Ki is absolutely right, and never go and look at the middle ground, or the fact that there IS a middle ground, and for true understanding of how ki works, you have to follow the middle ground, and not go on one path, or the other.
Ranma Bushiko
RanmaB@yahoo.com

We'll you're lucky, my original reply got deleted! *winks at Remakai* The Bottom line is, although you are probably quite correct that traditional qi isn't totally correct, it is far closer than radical Ki will ever be, since radical Ki is based on 'qi' only in name and nothing else. In reality 'Trad qi' and 'radki' are concepts, the truth path is not in the middle, since in reality there is not middle ground between them. You are also quite right in asking us all to keep an open mind, but you should also do the same. And hell, maybe I have stated a misconcenception or two in the above passage, the difference is that if someone points it out, I will take that as an oppourtunity for self reflection and fix any misconception that I have, and any fallacies that I have made/said.

ps. Someone reminded me. there is always the 'radki challange', currently real energy cultivation/manipulation systems are 1 - 0 up, you could attemp to balance the score! Or perhaps enter the 'middle of the road' team, which Im sure donjitsu2 would appreciate filming aswell.

You were right in the assumption that I've been using ki for 6 and a half years.  I'm 22 years old, and I've been working with Ki for a good chunk of my life.
I was saying I agreed with what Koujiryuu's post was for the gist of it.  Most techniques aren't well written, or said well, anymore, and people seem to think that visualization is everything.  However, the "Variant of Psionics part" is a bit insulting.  I was writing the post when I was partially asleep, trying to get my gist across without being called an idiot, or something like that.
I'm not actually sure what that weird yellow hair thing was about either, but it does give you fair pause that maybe those DBZers DID find something out, then called it SSJ, Super Saiya-jin, or Super Saiyan, for lack of a better name.  It definitely would explain a lot of things, like how come they're so obsessed with them being right.  However, Traditional Ki users have gone and rebuttled
The references for the Breathing exercize, I just gave a sentence on, and explained more.  For lack of a thing there, I will here now.
When I started the breathing exercises, the ki that entered my body didn't feel right, and didn't mix right with my own.  It may just be that my area's wrong, but it never felt right or went right well enough with my own power that I could work with it well.
For the Ki blast, the pressure was approximately what you'd feel for a hand pushing against another person's hand, about 3 feet away from each other.  The blasts lasted about ten seconds a test, and started going out over a wide area after about 5-10 feet away.
Powerups were the original name put on MysteryShadow's site, and the New Mystics Site, for the original one, which probably isn't still up.
I've managed to pull off a visible ki ball a while back, while focusing it into a weird shape, that looked like a peace sign without the big dividing line.  It was blue.  The way that Ki balls work, is that when you WILL something to happen, your Yi, or will, wraps around the energy, and holds it in the pattern.
And you haven't tried that technique for that Kaio Ken, have you?  I put in there, a way to keep the energy from going outside your body's natural aura, though you might find a different way, it shows that what's known now as Radical Ki did have good teachings back then, but most of it was lost after a while, as I said earlier
MysteryShadow's site, if you'll ask around, was up starting 8 years ago, around 1997-1998, however, went down a couple times.  I don't actually know what happened to it, but it was the first major Ki page online.  They had a mixture of Radical and Traditional Ki teachings, as it's known now, and the boards had some arguments for whether a technique was Traditional or not. 
This probably isn't the best of all explinations for a rebuttal, but I just woke up.  Feel free to bug me on aim for RanmaBushiko, or on msn using RanmaB@yahoo.com (not hotmail, yahoo.  You can use yahoo e-mails on it.).
Hope this helps,
Ranma Bushiko
An old Radki user, still working to refine how it was originally taught.  I've been studying since 1998, for 15 years of the stuff.

I've worked as a mentor online on AIM and MSN for the past 10 years of that time, as well.

If you want to ask me about Astral Projection, Radki, or anything else, I'll give you advice.