Author Topic: The Falsehoods of Radical Chi Explained  (Read 106510 times)

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June 01, 2013, 08:05:53 AM
Reply #180

Rayn

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Magick is actually something I have practiced and researched since about 2004. I've read a ton of stuff on Magick, and practiced things like the Middle Pillar Rite and LBRP.

Even today, I was doing simple sigil Magick. I am also a TDS Probationer Alumni.

I may not be as qualified as other people here who devote themselves solely to Magick, and I may know Qigong and Yoga best, but that doesn't mean I don't know anything about Magick.

You simply don't know what you're talking about and you are in no position to make assumptions about what I do and don't do.

A bench press is a movement that is archetypally associated with working out, for example, like kicks can be archetypally associated with martial arts. With that being said, sigils and Pentagram based exercises are archetypes of popular depictions of occultism. The fact that your comments center around common archetypes about occultism without any details about how it might work is basically similar to a person making comments about say martial arts that revolve around movements that are archetypical of it and, in essence, it is what radical ki did. They took archetypes of the concepts of Qi and tried to incorrectly apply them outside of their correct context.

The thing about magic is that the power is not linked to any form in particular. This is where people screw up. They think it is due to constructing something in a proper way, doing a ritual in a proper way, saying a particular chant in a proper way, so on and so forth. Magic is linked to the meaning, the experience, and the why which, in turn, is linked to recorded instructions that constitutes what to do. From my observations, you tend to focus on movements and ritualized things. A spell addresses, implicitly, why you are doing it, what desires you might have, what it is that you don't have that you want, your implicit feelings about it, and all of this factors into the overall meaning it has where this flows from inside out through magical actions. The fact that you are so myopic when it comes to proper forms and traditions makes it so that you miss the point, entirely, which would mean that magical operations carried out in such a manner would lack power which is similar to how someone who practices radikal ki misses the point entirely where their actions are equally inert and useless. This is an important distinction between the two. In one, the power from magic comes from a psychic level of meaning, which can be expressed in the form of symbols which represent relationships hence the purpose of seals, which makes it so that a person can perform a magical operation outside of forms standard to it whereas in the other, yours, things like posture, proper breathing, etc. are important. The fact that you are trying to stress the later principles as just as important as the former(there being a wrong way and a right way to practice magic in forms of traditions where wrong ways lead to delusions - see below quote) shows that you miss the point entirely - the power of the magical operation is linked to the individual experience, meaning, and motivations of the person more so than the physical actions that constitute such an action like the rituals or the chanting or the circles or the seals or the sigils or the Pentagrams versus your practices which are a lot more physical, thus, focusing on instructions of ways one can perform a magical operation properly without grasping what I said above would make it so that you miss the boat entirely. Furthermore, as such, energies associated with such operations are directly associated with those mental states or one can say that a such thing as a desire gains impetus via someone practicing magic focusing on it. This makes it more of a psychic level versus being tied to merdians and energy coming through the breath and things of that nature which kind of supports my point about form being much less significant than those internal experiential states that constitute the flow from inside to outside since the impetus would be tied to this.    

Quote
If you hunt down and ask Prophecy if there's a right way and a wrong way to practice Magick, I almost guarantee you he will tell you there are many wrong ways of practicing Magick that are fruitless endeavors, and many deluded Magick practitioners.

Magic is not tied to the how(what constitutes the physical actions of what you are doing). Magic is tied to the what and the why(what it means to you and why). You get so hung up on the how. Throwing out metaphysical platitudes doesn't demonstrate knowledge nor does throwing out prolific occultic archetypes and exercises demonstrate understanding.

Also, for the record, you opened up the door for this discussion due to you incorporating Psionics and Magic into the mix which resulted in some things you said not being correct which prompted my responses.  

I am also simply returning fire in that you said comments in regards to what I am qualified to speak on, so it is only appropriate that I do the same.

On Power and Magic - Part 1

On Power and Magic - Part 2

On Power and Magic - Part 3
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 12:08:11 PM by Rayn »
Noein - A Resource on Psi, Science, and Philosophy
but sorcery refuses to be a metaphor for mere literature--it insists that symbols must cause events as well as private epiphanies. It is not a critique but a re-making. It rejects all eschatology & metaphysics of removal, all bleary nostalgia & strident futurismo, in favor of a paroxysm or seizure of presence.

June 01, 2013, 12:13:54 PM
Reply #181

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Again, you're lecturing someone who knows this already, and you're also completing ignoring the point that I was making (that power in metaphysics comes from the will, which in Magick is expressed through symbolism).

What you described above perfectly illustrates the point I was trying to make.

For example, this paragraph:

Quote
This is where people screw up. They think it is due to constructing something in a proper way, doing a ritual in a proper way, saying a particular chant in a proper way, so on and so forth. Magic is linked to the meaning, the experience, and the why which, in turn, is linked to recorded instructions that constitutes what to do. From my observations, you tend to focus on movements and ritualized things. A spell addresses, implicitly, why you are doing it, what desires you might have, what it is that you don't have that you want, your implicit feelings about it, and all of this factors into the overall meaning it has where this flows from inside out through magical actions. The fact that you are so myopic when it comes to proper forms and traditions makes it so that you miss the point, entirely, which would mean that magical operations carried out in such a manner would lack power which is similar to how someone who practices radikal ki misses the point entirely where their actions are equally inert and useless. This is an important distinction between the two. In one, the power from magic comes from a psychic level of meaning, which can be expressed in the form of symbols which represent relationships hence the purpose of seals, which makes it so that a person can perform a magical operation outside of forms standard to it whereas in the other, yours, things like posture, proper breathing, etc. are important. The fact that you are trying to stress the later principles as just as important as the former(there being a wrong way and a right way to practice magic in forms of traditions where wrong ways lead to delusions - see below quote) shows that you miss the point entirely - the power of the magical operation is linked to the individual experience, meaning, and motivations of the person more so than the physical actions that constitute such an action like the rituals or the chanting or the circles or the seals or the sigils or the Pentagrams versus your practices which are a lot more physical, thus, focusing on instructions of ways one can perform a magical operation properly without grasping what I said above would make it so that you miss the boat entirely.

Says pretty much exactly that. "the power of the magical operation is linked to the individual experience, meaning, and motivations of the person more so than the physical actions that constitute such an action like the rituals or the chanting or the circles or the seals or the sigils". This power is the underlying metaphysical will or intention to do something.

Again, stop making assumptions about what I do or don't do- "From my observations, you tend to focus on movements and ritualized things." I don't practice ritual Magick outside of Sigil magick and even then it's done devoid of ritual.

You don't know what you're talking about and this has just led you to essentially argue my point for me.

This thread has been so massively derailed by you. Any more replies like this that are not only off topic but also essentially inflammatory will be ignored, and at worst, deleted.

EDIT: Let's get back to the original topic. Any further posts that are off topic will be considered rule breaking and will lead to punishment.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 12:33:09 PM by Koujiryuu »
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June 01, 2013, 11:36:35 PM
Reply #182

HADOUKEN

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First off, for Qigong, etc. following the same principles, I can understand that.  The methods that I learned never worked well for moving ki into the air, and until I invented a method for myself that worked, the only thing that would ever work would be something akin to a 57 layered psi construct to hold Ki in a ball, strong enough for 7 different people to be able to feel by putting their hands through, with a maximum range I could move it, of about 15 feet distance away from me before it would dissipate.

For the weird crap that happened to my student/friend?  I'll try to get pictures, but it's been 7 years, and he moved out of his house twice since then.  I just wanted your opinion on what on earth happened to the guy, because Radki, Traditional Chi, and psionics doesn't seem to explain it at all, nor has anyone else I've asked.

As for my hamster killing student, he was a natural psi vamp.  Still, you could be right.  But he was "gifted" enough that he could make his sister go from normal to exhausted and sleepy in 2 minutes, in the car, with me and him talking the entire time, after she pissed him off pretty bad.

Finally, as for the "Right" and "Wrong" way to practice with your Qi, as you call it... sure, I can believe that for everyone there's a different route in practicing it properly.  My methods aren't yours, after all, and will never be yours.  But what works for one person won't work for another, as we all saw at the beginning of The New Mystics, and MysteryShadow's homepage.  But don't expect me to jump on your Qigong bandwagon when what works for me has worked superior to the other methods I read up on for over 10 years.

I've gone from "Visualization, and long periods of meditation" to "closing my eyes, and thinking about it, to feel it moving through my body as it naturally moves", through years of hard work and training with it, learning how to work with it and let it work with me and be more in tune with me better.  I'm not trying for tactile feedback, the tactile feedback is a side effect of clearing my mind and simply thinking about it, and how it's moving through my body, and my body becoming completely in tune with it as a result, as it flows through my meridians, and my chakras.

As for Qigong disease, I'll keep your point in mind.  But you shouldn't assume that all people that practice Radki has it, either.  One of my former acquaintances sounds like they had a case of it, but she barely practiced as it was, focusing mainly only on the astral plane instead of bettering herself here on the physical.  She eventually insisted she were going to be some sort of Goddess-Messiah or some crap like that, and it took her boyfriend dumping her to snap her slowly back into reality.

Seriously? The best of Radki, which wasn't that good, came from Dynamic Tension exercises and a Ki Ball exercise within The Ki Process and the short blurb on the Kihap ("Kiai" in Japanese) from State of the Art Taekwondo with a bunch of Dragon Ball Z fanboyism wrapped around it. In fact, the use of the word "Radical" in The Ki Process is where the word "Radical" came from in the creation of the term "Radki." The way "radical" and "ki" were smashed together into one word was based off the word "Reiki" and shows how little I knew about Japanese I knew at the time. It was to create some legitimacy, but that obviously didn't really work.

今、私は日本語話します。でも

If you strip the anime stuff from it, you've got some neat stuff like the Sanchin Kata from Karate and legitimate use of Kiai to generate power in martial arts. Add some Chinese candle training exercises to it and you've got some stuff to supplement good martial technique and a proper fitness program that blows Radki away.

Just to be fair, though, what martial benefits have come from your Radki training that couldn't be much more easily gotten from the sources I mentioned?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 11:58:14 PM by HADOUKEN »
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June 02, 2013, 02:01:31 AM
Reply #183

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Seriously? The best of Radki, which wasn't that good, came from Dynamic Tension exercises and a Ki Ball exercise within The Ki Process and the short blurb on the Kihap ("Kiai" in Japanese) from State of the Art Taekwondo with a bunch of Dragon Ball Z fanboyism wrapped around it. In fact, the use of the word "Radical" in The Ki Process is where the word "Radical" came from in the creation of the term "Radki." The way "radical" and "ki" were smashed together into one word was based off the word "Reiki" and shows how little I knew about Japanese I knew at the time. It was to create some legitimacy, but that obviously didn't really work.

今、私は日本語話します。でも

If you strip the anime stuff from it, you've got some neat stuff like the Sanchin Kata from Karate and legitimate use of Kiai to generate power in martial arts. Add some Chinese candle training exercises to it and you've got some stuff to supplement good martial technique and a proper fitness program that blows Radki away.

Just to be fair, though, what martial benefits have come from your Radki training that couldn't be much more easily gotten from the sources I mentioned?

What I did, was I ignored the anime stuff completely when I studied it, and treated any anime stuff I read, as merely theory that was possible, rather than fact.  ...Not that anyone here asked me that.  When I did try to replicate techniques, as theory, I looked, instead of at the methods from the anime or what have you, but at the physics, and tried to make something that would react in a similar way.  The one crowning technique I developed back when I first started out, was pretty much a Ki ball, held together by 47 layers of construct, that absorbed the Ki I pushed into it for momentum, which a few students I taught in real life rather than online, managed to feel the energy if they'd practiced Ki ball techniques not long before hand so their hands were still sensitive to it.  Most I ever got was about 17, 18 feet before it dissipated using that technique, but nothing more than "Dude, what did I walk through just now?  Was that Ki?" from said students.

A lot of "Radki" techniques I developed, I initially gave out thinking they were "power boosts" not realizing they were simply making my awareness jump up, and circulating power faster through my body, at that time, as well.  They've got much different functions than I originally percieved them as having, and when you focus on using them to try and gain power fast, alone, they usually have detrimental effects.  Such as anger issues, and the like.

As for martial benefits?  How about figuring out how to astral project inwards, to explore your own meridians and to fix blockages from the inside rather than needing acupuncture to help you?  Or to explore your mind's sense of self, the mindscape, and learn more about what your Ki is naturally in tune with, for latent talents?

Or the fact that my father still usually can outdo me in wrestling, but when I channeled Ki full bore through my body, my reaction time shot up to be able to hold him in a headlock no matter what he did?  3 attempts to get out of it resulted in him going back into the headlock instantly, while I switched arms each time.

Also, I've owned that book for years.  Good book, bit short, but I looked to it partially for advice in keeping my meridians clear, and what the heck I was seeing when I first tried to project into them to see if it was even possible.

On a different note... interesting how the candle technique works.  I always got slight bits of wind, but thought I was doing something wrong, because Mysteryshadow's article said it was for making hot or cold Ki, for the beginnings of pyrokinesis or cryokinesis.
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I've worked as a mentor online on AIM and MSN for the past 10 years of that time, as well.

If you want to ask me about Astral Projection, Radki, or anything else, I'll give you advice.

June 02, 2013, 02:37:33 AM
Reply #184

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You're making the candle training more complicated than it really is. Don't worry about all the "-kinesis" stuff. In fact, that's what I'm saying about all of it: stop over-complicating it.

People who eat well, get plenty of regular sleep, and get regular healthy exercise have healthy Qi already. No need for the, "Astral projecting inward to fix blockages" and all that. Just treat your body and mind the right way to begin with and you won't have to do all that crazy stuff in the first place.

Really, just simplify it down even further. The sources I gave you just a bit ago? Use them. They're really all you need for what Radki was supposed to do in the first place and they're a lot simpler in execution. It's the difference between, "Do five crazy extra things trying to keep your mind clear and doing this breath," and, "Use this breath, the rest happens automatically." Feeling as strong as a Shonen manga protagonist is one of those things that comes automatically, too, when you just strip it down to the essentials and do it right the first time.

I felt a lot more like something out of Dragonball Z using good Kiai during full-contact sparring than I ever did standing in my back yard trying to do a Kamehameha at the air.

It's simply a matter of practicality. Go back and read Dragonball from after Piccolo Daimaou gets killed all the way through just before the Cell Game. Becoming more efficient and mastering the fundamentals are when the biggest breakthroughs happen and the most decisive wins take place.
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June 02, 2013, 11:50:11 AM
Reply #185

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That candle training link reminds me of some of the exercises mentioned in Paul Dong's book Empty Force. Same type of concept. Make me think that if all you did was the candle training you'd not only improve things such as reiki but empty force as well. If you energy can penetrate it can affect someone.

June 02, 2013, 03:54:19 PM
Reply #186

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I never did Radki and only found out about it on the forum. Honestly, I have formulated certain energy work around the anime idea, but one must look at what preceded anime- qigong, tantric yoga, martial arts, myths and legends, religious stories, etc. All this anime stuff is based upon ancient practices, albeit with creative intellect and intuition (which is what practical methods of energy work, martial arts, fitness or magic should incorporate to be most effective for the individual).

I am a big fan of Dragon Ball Z and have found correlations between the show and energetic practices. I think if we look at the ancient teachings, the possibilities of them in the modern world and how to enhance them with traditional and personal methods (this is what psi represents to me) then seeing their potential from a fictitious point of view (or what Alan Moore calls the Immateria- or plane of imagination where all things are possible and can be real, but it depends on the will of the mage or psion) we can devise our own plan of action, or our own theories and techniques for pragmatic results.

For instance, tying in the seven Dragon Balls as the Seven Chakras, Shen-Ron (the wish fulfilling dragon) as the Kundalini. Super Saiyan transformation as the Golden Body (Rainbow Body, Diamond Body, etc), flying as light air kung fu (yes, it is real. There is actually a good post with a video link on Veritas somewhere). There are many, many anime/comic book powers that are real, but not to the extent that we may want them to be. I have never seen or experienced any telekinetic ability that I can prove being so, but I have had extra sensory perceptions via mind linking, reading, future seeing, spirit encounters and magical projection and achievement. I use these indicators as ways to understand that the human brain and body (along with the mind, or higher/subconscious functioning of our innate selves) have capabilities beyond our understanding.

Sometimes fiction gives us that extra boost to want to develop and heighten our perceptions, magical, energetic and martial skills. Myths and folklore about the Greek Titans, Gods and Heroes, to martial arts myths about Karate and Kung Fu masters have all given me aspiration and hope on this long journey of discovering my self and human potential. Myths and religious stories are nothing but ancient forms of fiction and we read these stories and (some of us) view them as real- the supernatural abilities, the divine connection, etc, so why is it so bad to come up with a new paradigm that uses modern stories fused with ancient and modern techniques of the Force, Super Saiyans, Namekian fusion and healing, contracts to have specific psi abilities, etc, as a means of physical, emotional, spiritual, energetic and magical well being and ability discovery?

From what I have experienced with my experiments into magic, psi and energy work, as long as your intention is strong enough and you know your body and mental states well enough that you can heal any blockages/deviations or know the sensations and processes before they get too bad so you can reverse them, any model of energy, magic or fitness you choose can be lasting and beneficial to your life and loved ones. Like mentioned earlier, you need a good balance of traditional understanding and practice (this is where master teachers [Guru, Sifu, Sensei, Mage, etc] are priceless) mixed with a good balance of intellect (Scientific Method) and intuition for the best results on the path- whether it is for spiritual or ability gain. I personally use it for both.
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June 02, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Reply #187

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I agree with you Mind_Bender, there's a lot of symbolism in anime and manga.

It's fine to use these things as inspiration.

It is not fine to take them literally and try to emulate the powers and abilities displayed in the show using almost wholly visualization and imagination. All this produces is delusion. It ignores traditional practices and methods of developing Qi. It is also not fine to lie about the results you get from such practices (i.e. claiming to be a Super Saiyan or claiming to make visible ki balls, or do visible energy beams that explode and damage buildings, or claim to fly. I have seen all these claims and I know they're all lies.)

Since you missed it and haven't seen what the actual Radki practices are, take a thorough look at this webpage. This is one of the more notorious "ki manuals". Note the almost complete lack of Qigong fundamentals (Yi, posture, breathwork, form) and the complete reliance on visualization. Also note the lack of real descriptiveness of the techniques. How anyone could learn proper energy work from this, especially Qigong, is beyond me.

The majority of the sites still around now that have Radki elements (psiwarriors.com, a few Avatar bending sites) all have this one fatal flaw: it's all visualization, tactile feedback, imagination and induced delusion. It has more in common with bad Psi practice than anything.

Also, Kendamu's advice is good.

"Use this breath, the rest happens automatically."

Him and I have a difference of opinion on what Qi really is. He sees it as more of a purely scientific force. I see it as a mystical force within the domain of Daoist Yoga and alchemy. However, he really hit the nail on the head when it comes to martial Qigong. Just breath correctly, attack, kiai and the rest happens automatically if you're in a blank state of mind. The Qi will manifest naturally because of your intent. You don't need to forcefully guide the Qi out of the arms or legs when attacking because this happens on it's own when you have the right mindset. This holds true for most spiritual Qigong and most health oriented Qigong forms (Baduanjin, Taijiquan) too. You never need to focus the Qi in one part of the body, the goal is to blank out and "go with the flow", do the exercise, and let the Qi move on it's own.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 04:59:32 PM by Koujiryuu »
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June 02, 2013, 04:55:49 PM
Reply #188

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It is not fine to take them literally and try to emulate the powers and abilities displayed in the show using almost wholly visualization and imagination. All this produces is delusion. It ignores traditional practices and methods of developing Qi. It is also not fine to lie about the results you get from such practices (i.e. claiming to be a Super Saiyan or claiming to make visible ki balls, or do visible energy beams that explode and damage buildings, or claim to fly. I have seen all these claims and I know they're all lies.)

Well, to play the devil's advocate (which you all know I love to do :P) for all anyone on this board knows, people ARE producing visible ki balls and making visible energy beams that cause damage to buildings... or maybe even flying...

How do you know that all of those claims are lies?
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June 02, 2013, 05:02:07 PM
Reply #189

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claiming to make visible ki balls


You know, in the first place, it never said anywhere in dragon ball that ki was visible. I don't even remember anywhere that clairvoyance was implied, especially since Baba was the only official psychic that I remember. The author only made ki visible to the readers because it makes it more fun to read the manga, and then later to watch the anime. In short, it was the readers/watchers who had clairvoyance, not the characters themselves.  :P



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June 02, 2013, 05:02:43 PM
Reply #190

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Because back then it was coming from 14-16 year old boys with less than a year of practice in meditation, martial arts and spirituality, who spent more time posting on forums than actually practicing, made things up as they went along, had overactive imagination, and wanted to lie to impress their peers.

I even saw a few videos back in the day where kids were claiming to make "visible ki balls" in front of a camera. Without fail, I saw no such thing, even though they claimed to be doing it.

It really doesn't take a genius to realize why all this stuff is lies.
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June 02, 2013, 05:45:00 PM
Reply #191

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Because back then it was coming from 14-16 year old boys with less than a year of practice in meditation, martial arts and spirituality, who spent more time posting on forums than actually practicing, made things up as they went along, had overactive imagination, and wanted to lie to impress their peers.

I even saw a few videos back in the day where kids were claiming to make "visible ki balls" in front of a camera. Without fail, I saw no such thing, even though they claimed to be doing it.

It really doesn't take a genius to realize why all this stuff is lies.

What I find funny is that this is the attitude that many skeptics take to the overall content of this forum (psi, chi, magic, etc).

For all anybody knows, we're all a bunch of 14-16 year old boys posting online (I'm sure most of us were at some point...)

There are a few videos out there reportedly demonstrating psi in action, but if you discount the ones that have been discovered/admitted as being fakes, there's really no way to tell if there is any psi happening or if it's just your own imagination/wishful thinking/stage trickery.

I've also heard your final sentiment expressed many a time towards psi/chi/magic as well.

Maybe we're still 14-16 year old boys that just never grew up, and keep hoping to find out we have special powers.

Just a thought.
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June 02, 2013, 06:11:00 PM
Reply #192

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What I find funny is that this is the attitude that many skeptics take to the overall content of this forum (psi, chi, magic, etc).

For all anybody knows, we're all a bunch of 14-16 year old boys posting online (I'm sure most of us were at some point...)

There are a few videos out there reportedly demonstrating psi in action, but if you discount the ones that have been discovered/admitted as being fakes, there's really no way to tell if there is any psi happening or if it's just your own imagination/wishful thinking/stage trickery.

I've also heard your final sentiment expressed many a time towards psi/chi/magic as well.

Maybe we're still 14-16 year old boys that just never grew up, and keep hoping to find out we have special powers.

Just a thought.

There's a lot of wisdom in this post, and again, this is why I don't believe the majority of claims people make online that are very outlandish.

Ultimately, though, I've experienced and seen enough real, objective effects of Qigong, Psi and Magick through my own workings to have come to the conclusion that they are more than psychosomatic.

Also, this still says nothing about the wisdom, self mastery, and personal development you can attain through metaphysics, which to me is more important than any power.

So for me, it really has nothing to do with power and everything to do with inner peace. I know I've said this before, but I will never stop saying it, because it's really true for me.

Kouji
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Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

August 27, 2013, 11:03:18 PM
Reply #193

jimdare

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