Author Topic: The Subject of Pacts  (Read 373 times)

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September 07, 2018, 10:09:06 PM
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Sophocles

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Ok, I know that most people on this forum are right-hand path, but just for curiosity's sake I was wondering: exactly how much can making a pact with a demon do for you?
For example, is it possible for a demon to allow you to be reborn with the exact same personality and memories after you die, giving you an advantage over normal people who can't remember their past lives at all? Could someone potentially live numerous carefree lives, going from life to life with their conscious memories fully intact, until their time is up and it is time for them to serve the demon in an afterlife realm?
Could a pact with a demon change a characteristic commonly held to be unalterable, such as gender or race? For example, could a transsexual make a pact that allows them to fully switch to the opposite sex in all its totality, with full reproductive capabilities?
Can a demon grant you power on a global scale? And what happens if more than one person want the same power? For example, lets say five different people make pacts with different demons to become the President of the United States. Do the demons have to fight with each other to determine who it will be?
Can making a pact actually boost your karma in certain circumstances? For example, if you make a deal with a devil to acquire healing powers and use these powers to save thousands of lives, would it increase your karma and move you closer to enlightenment?

Moving on from the potential benefits of pacts, I am curious about how one goes about making them. I assume you need both clairvoyance and clairaudience, right? And does the demon actually appear in physical form at certain places? For example, I heard somewhere that it is best to make a deal with Satan at a crossroads. Satan is supposed to show up driving a white car and wearing a white suit. I think he will invite you into his car and you make the pact there, I'm not sure. I know it sounds corny, but the world is a strange place!

Also, what are the drawbacks? I assume that at some point the person who makes the pact will have to be the demon's slave. Is this always a negative experience, or are some demons less cruel than others? How far will it set back one's spiritual evolution?

Anyways, thanks for all information you can give me. I know these questions may sound insane, but this is so far just for curiosity's sake. I am interested in any knowledge I can acquire, but of course I won't just automatically believe everything I hear on the internet.

September 09, 2018, 07:08:23 AM
Reply #1

الظلام

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Lucky for you  I am as left hand path as you can get  :P

However, a lot of the questions you ask are are dependent on the demon.
Just like any other spirit, they all have their own desires, personality, and powers. One demon may be able to do nothing which you ask, while another may be capable of everything. Some may not have the power, but will find other ways to assist, while another may have the power but will be unwilling to help you.

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Can making a pact actually boost your karma in certain circumstances? For example, if you make a deal with a devil to acquire healing powers and use these powers to save thousands of lives, would it increase your karma and move you closer to enlightenment?

I'm not sure what you think karma has to do with enlightenment, but anyways demons usually avoid deals which will overload your karma, good or bad. Especialy since they are somewhat responsible for what you do through the deal. But still, you may or may not find a demon who is both capable and willing to make a deal like this.

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I assume you need both clairvoyance and clairaudience, right?

Not necessarily, depends on:
-how powerful the demon is
-how powerful you are
-how interested the demon is in you

Many demons are too weak to manifest, or it would be very taxing to do so,  so in cases like that it would be necessary. Others may be powerful enough, but won't be willing or interested in appearing to you.
On the other hand, the more spiritual authority you have, the more demons will be compelled to manifest, if that is your wish. Being more powerful also gives the demons more incentive to deal with you, in which case they will want to manifest on their own.

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And does the demon actually appear in physical form at certain places?

This has more to do with your own abilities, and the demons abilities, rather than where its done.

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For example, I heard somewhere that it is best to make a deal with Satan at a crossroads. Satan is supposed to show up driving a white car and wearing a white suit. I think he will invite you into his car and you make the pact there

Alright, we're falling a bit into myth here :P
While there may be some impact to the ritual depending on where it is done, for the most part, it has to do with other things. A good magician will succeed at this anywhere.
And no, I don't think you should expect Satan to show up in a shiny BMW :P
While demons certainly do manifest in some interesting ways sometimes, what you describes sounds a bit too much like a folk tale :biggrin:
Besides, it would be dangerous for you anyways, to allow the demon to persuade you to follow them outside of your circle and ritual place.

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I assume that at some point the person who makes the pact will have to be the demon's slave

Not necessarily. That is often the case, but it depends on you, and the demon. There are plenty of demons that are open to forming more friendly relationships if you are their type, or you show that kind of sincereity and interest in them, instead of just using them like a tool for power.
For example those like demonolators and satanists etc. are far more likely to have more mutual, amicable, and less draconian interactions with them than say your average pious right hand path magician.

But still, depends on the demon, some really just want slaves :P

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Is this always a negative experience, or are some demons less cruel than others?

Again that is entirely dependent on the demon. Just like you and I, they have there own personalities.

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How far will it set back one's spiritual evolution?


That depends.
The main issue is that when you go to serve the demon after death, you are cast into the spiritual sphere he resides in, regardless of your own composition.
Our astral bodies, when we die, usually travel to a sphere that is harmonious with the composition of our own soul, however that isn't the case when you are forced to serve in a pact.
Instead you will be in a sphere that may be disharmonious, and if you stay there, your soul will gradually transform and harmonize with the sphere which you are stuck in.

Now, how will this affect your spiritual evolution? Depends what your desires were in the first place.
Obviously, if you are a right hand path hermetic magician, this will be quite a setback, and unless you escape(which I hear is possible), then the damage will be colossal.
However, if you wanted to become a demon, than making a pact is a very easy way to fulfill that, since your soul will have to convert into the composition of that sphere regardless, and eventually your soul will be no different in composition than the demons which inhabit that place. In this case, its a win-win  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:31:28 AM by الظلام »

September 09, 2018, 09:03:25 PM
Reply #2

Sophocles

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Thanks for answering!

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I'm not sure what you think karma has to do with enlightenment, but anyways demons usually avoid deals which will overload your karma, good or bad. Especialy since they are somewhat responsible for what you do through the deal. But still, you may or may not find a demon who is both capable and willing to make a deal like this.

I just always kinda assumed that good karma brings you closer to enlightenment, but now that I think about it, it's probably more likely that all karma (whether good or bad) binds you in samsara because of the law of cause-and-effect. At least that appears to be what eastern religions would believe. Does your tradition consider enlightenment to be completely independent of one's karma and morality?

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That depends.
The main issue is that when you go to serve the demon after death, you are cast into the spiritual sphere he resides in, regardless of your own composition.
Our astral bodies, when we die, usually travel to a sphere that is harmonious with the composition of our own soul, however that isn't the case when you are forced to serve in a pact.
Instead you will be in a sphere that may be disharmonious, and if you stay there, your soul will gradually transform and harmonize with the sphere which you are stuck in.

Now, how will this affect your spiritual evolution? Depends what your desires were in the first place.
Obviously, if you are a right hand path hermetic magician, this will be quite a setback, and unless you escape(which I hear is possible), then the damage will be colossal.
However, if you wanted to become a demon, than making a pact is a very easy way to fulfill that, since your soul will have to convert into the composition of that sphere regardless, and eventually your soul will be no different in composition than the demons which inhabit that place. In this case, its a win-win  :biggrin:

I think it's absolutely fascinating that a human can become a demon. I guess I still subconsciously view demons through the Christian-influenced paradigm that dominates contemporary culture, in which demons are all fallen angels and are of a unalterably different nature than man. If a human can become a demon, does this mean that a demon can become a human? And do human souls who go to angelic realms shift in their composition as well, eventually becoming angels? 

September 10, 2018, 12:32:05 AM
Reply #3

الظلام

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I just always kinda assumed that good karma brings you closer to enlightenment, but now that I think about it, it's probably more likely that all karma (whether good or bad) binds you in samsara because of the law of cause-and-effect. At least that appears to be what eastern religions would believe. Does your tradition consider enlightenment to be completely independent of one's karma and morality?

Very wise reflection you caught on your own.
Karma is karma is karma, good or bad  :P
If you are familiar with Rawn Clark and Bardon's materials, Rawn talks about this in somewhere. Good karma will bind you to reincarnation just as much as bad karma.
That last bit is dependent on what you define as "enlightenment". That word in itself is thrown around a lot, and there are far too many definitions.
If you mean it in the sense of Self-Realization, aka merging with the greater self/akashic principle, then yes, it is separate from morality and karma.

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I think it's absolutely fascinating that a human can become a demon. I guess I still subconsciously view demons through the Christian-influenced paradigm that dominates contemporary culture, in which demons are all fallen angels and are of a unalterably different nature than man. If a human can become a demon, does this mean that a demon can become a human? And do human souls who go to angelic realms shift in their composition as well, eventually becoming angels?

To be honest I'm not sure how many of the fallen angels would qualify as true demons. Hence, why it is important to keep them separate. Fallen angels are fallen angels, and demons are demons. Using them interchangeably is risky.

My definition of what angels and demons are comes from a more universal, practical perspective influenced by Bardon and hermetics, which clears away the cultural bias, and tries to define them with objective clarity.

In this perspective, the main attribute of what makes a demon a demon, and what makes an angel an angel, is purity.
Demons are spirits of the negative/infernal polarity, angels are beings of the celestial/positive polarity; Demons are beings of darkness, angels are beings of light.

The reason I say that I am hesitant to define fallen angels as demons, is because I am not quite sure to what degree the Fallen embraced darkness. Now there is no doubt that they fell from grace and were perverted by ego and darkness, but I am not quite sure to what degree they all entirely "converted". They may or may not have retained some of their celestial composition. I'd also point out that they did not lose there celestial powers, they merely lost their "Angel status".

Anyways, the only things which really differentiate the spiritual structure of demons/angels from "humans"  is purity, and the humans' tetrapolarity(containing all elements).
However, the latter really doesn't hold much weight as there are many spirits out there which were never human and yet are tetrapolar, including some Gods, demons, angels, aliens etc.
The only real difference between humans and angels/demons is purity. If I were to give humans one trait which really defines them, it is their mixed composition, their ability to dance between light and dark, their mediocrity.
This is one reason why humans, unlike angels and demons, are a more complete image of God, since they represent both halves of Creation, both the negative and positive, essentially representing the entire universe or  "macrocosm".

Yes, there is nothing stopping demons from becoming humans, and vice versa. And yes those that inhabit the celestial realms will eventually be no different than the angels which already inhabited those places. On top of that there will even be angels and demons which gain tetrapolarity but retain their purity and status, and will incarnate alongside "humans".

Spirits are constantly evolving on their own, shifting "classification", so the idea which have already been presented really aren't all that far fetched.
Elementals often gain another element - losing their elemental status, elementals are essentially just collections of elemental energy which gained intelligence in the first place, demons lose their demonhood by gaining a positive element, fallen angels lost their angel status by being corrupted by darkness and rebelling, animal spirits eventually become human, I think I heard humans become HGA's for other humans incarnate on earth and etc.
Spiritual evolution is everywhere :biggrin:
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:51:24 AM by الظلام »

September 11, 2018, 09:25:43 PM
Reply #4

Sophocles

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The reason I say that I am hesitant to define fallen angels as demons, is because I am not quite sure to what degree the Fallen embraced darkness. Now there is no doubt that they fell from grace and were perverted by ego and darkness, but I am not quite sure to what degree they all entirely "converted". They may or may not have retained some of their celestial composition. I'd also point out that they did not lose there celestial powers, they merely lost their "Angel status".


Wait, fallen angels are actual beings? This opens up yet another rabbit hole to go down. Was the Fall a single event that happened in the distant past, or do angels fall all the time? Was there really a war in heaven, did the angels fall because they wouldn't bow down to man? Is Lucifer one of the fallen? Are the Nephilim real as well?

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Yes, there is nothing stopping demons from becoming humans, and vice versa. And yes those that inhabit the celestial realms will eventually be no different than the angels which already inhabited those places. On top of that there will even be angels and demons which gain tetrapolarity but retain their purity and status, and will incarnate alongside "humans".

Spirits are constantly evolving on their own, shifting "classification", so the idea which have already been presented really aren't all that far fetched.
Elementals often gain another element - losing their elemental status, elementals are essentially just collections of elemental energy which gained intelligence in the first place, demons lose their demonhood by gaining a positive element, fallen angels lost their angel status by being corrupted by darkness and rebelling, animal spirits eventually become human, I think I heard humans become HGA's for other humans incarnate on earth and etc.
Spiritual evolution is everywhere :biggrin:


I like the fluidity that different beings have according to your belief system. It feels liberating to know that entities have the ability to shift their classification. In a way, it is very existentialist--the individual can create their own essence.

Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim? Your views don't seem very halal by mainstream standards, lol. And would the Jinn be classified as demons or elementals, or something else entirely?

I appreciate you answering all these questions, sorry if they seem annoying, I just enjoy absorbing and comparing information from many different systems.

September 11, 2018, 10:52:19 PM
Reply #5

الظلام

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Wait, fallen angels are actual beings? This opens up yet another rabbit hole to go down. Was the Fall a single event that happened in the distant past, or do angels fall all the time? Was there really a war in heaven, did the angels fall because they wouldn't bow down to man? Is Lucifer one of the fallen? Are the Nephilim real as well?

It would be best to ask straight from the mouth of those that were there, and evoke one :P
But fortunately, I had a fellow magician whom I trust tell me about an evoker that had done exactly that. He even shared his experience online on a forum like this one, though I don't know exactly where.
Anyways, according to him, Astaroth told him that initially the one you call Lucifer was an angel very close to what you call "god" or the Creator, and he also governed music for the Creator.
He was even one of the few to have actually seen the Creator manifest - not even most archangels have had that opportunity.
But, Lucifer grew jealous of something, what exactly, I can't quite remember.  But anyways, Astaroth describes Lucifer as being very charismatic, and he easily convinced many angels to rebel with him.
Now I don't know if there was some kind of war, or if it was more like simply walking out on your boss, but of course the end result I'm sure you are familiar with - Lucifer and those with him fell.
I hear many of the fallen regret their decision and wish to return, Astaroth included, but I'm not sure about Lucifer.

So anyways, yes the Fall is real to some degree, unless Astaroth is lying, which doesn't seem reasonable.
In regards to the Nephillim, and myth in general, I would say - there is probably truth to a lot of it, it just may or may not differ from how humans tell it.

And yes, I would think that Angels falling is more a multiple occasion thing, rather than just one single event. You've heard of the Watchers, right? They were separate from Lucifer's fall.

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I like the fluidity that different beings have according to your belief system

Mine is essentially little different than Bardon's, though their may be a few details we would argue about   :biggrin:

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It feels liberating to know that entities have the ability to shift their classification. In a way, it is very existentialist--the individual can create their own essence

Well it's mostly humans who have complicated things with their labels, stories, and lack of understanding  :P
All spirits are the same in essential structure, the only difference is what particular forces compose it.
And if you are familiar with the IIH or hermetic practice in general, than you should be familiar with the "soul mirrors" or the practice of developing the spirit to achieve equipoise or elemental equilibrium, and that whole practice capitalizes on the very fact that spirits can influence and change their spiritual structure.

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Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim? Your views don't seem very halal by mainstream standards, lol. And would the Jinn be classified as demons or elementals, or something else entirely?

Not quite. There are technical reasons which would prevent me from embracing Islam as a muslim, though I would consider myself a patron of it. I'm especially enthralled by it's Jihad aspect   :P
Regarding the Jinn, that depends, because it has many different cultural interpretations. But if we remove the cultural part, the jinn would actually encompass all spirits, including the malaa'ikah(angels), shayatin(demons), elementals, and even humans(which can be seen as a type of jinni which incarnates in a human body). The word, depending on where you ask, roughly can be used in the same sense as how we use "Spirit(s)".
Usually, like in the the Qur'an, however, it is used to refer to the more general spirits, which excludes shayatin, malaa'ikah, and humans. So in this sense, it may include elementals, gods, etc.

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I appreciate you answering all these questions, sorry if they seem annoying, I just enjoy absorbing and comparing information from many different systems.

Being inquisitive is something to be encouraged, not scolded. Don't worry  :wink:
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:39:59 AM by الظلام »

September 24, 2018, 11:06:16 PM
Reply #6

Lumpino

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Ok, I know that most people on this forum are right-hand path, but just for curiosity's sake I was wondering: exactly how much can making a pact with a demon do for you?
....................
First of all, study something. Many books are freely on the net.
There are many worlds, many different spiritual beings.
Good books about this:
Dr. Johannes Faust's Magia naturalis et innaturalis
Claviculae salomonis ... try google.
...
Or look for: Twilit Grotto: Archives of Western Esoterica
..........and many others.

But, I think, better are eastern spiritual praktices - see for example Ocean of stories by Somadeva. Christians have been evoking hell. And it is not the best.



September 26, 2018, 12:04:37 AM
Reply #7

Sophocles

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First of all, study something. Many books are freely on the net.
There are many worlds, many different spiritual beings.
Good books about this:
Dr. Johannes Faust's Magia naturalis et innaturalis
Claviculae salomonis ... try google.
...
Or look for: Twilit Grotto: Archives of Western Esoterica
..........and many others.

But, I think, better are eastern spiritual praktices - see for example Ocean of stories by Somadeva. Christians have been evoking hell. And it is not the best.
Thanks for the information, I'll look into them.