Author Topic: My oh my we are a sad little place  (Read 1497 times)

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September 23, 2017, 12:47:52 PM
Reply #30

Kemetin

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There are multiple flaws in the reasoning of your thinking. First off, Eastern practices do not exists in some void. Taoist, Buddhists, Vedic, Hindu, so on and so forth ideologies are culturally dominant in Eastern countries, right? Well, what is the frequency of people in those countries who historically and currently have any a large amount of say psychic ability? Not many. The reason why observable instances of psychic abilities large enough to be seen without analysis  is so hard to believe is because it is so rare. If it were not, then it would be a common and familiar experience endemic to human society. But it is not! The same could be said for Western religion and spirituality. Inductively, this means there is no reason to think that supplementing your practices with Eastern ones will have any effect, because the frequency of people who actually have experiences that are large enough to observe without analysis is just about the same for either or. The majority of people on this planet are religious or spiritual in some shape or form; however, most people aren't moving objects around that can be seen without analysis, which is why people have a hard time believing that someone can make an object levitate.

Secondly, when you speak of a "lineage", you are speaking of how things are taught to people and how those things are further taught. You are speaking of a culture, essentially. Something is not true by virtue of having a particular culture. Abstractly, you can say how people learn things on line is indicative of a culture the same way you are learning where there is a difference in pedagogy and whether or not something is vetted. Besides cultural differences, though, it seems as if you are making an assumption that one culture is more likely to give results than another based on what appears to be age and how closely it matches up to some arbitrarily proposed cannon of beliefs. Think of technology. Technology is not just the end result, but it is also the ideas, concepts, and techniques taught to people to come up with that technology. This means there is a cultural component to it where current technology is very effective where those disciplines are relatively new.

This boils down to pretty much there being no logical reason, based on evidence, to think you will get better results if you supplemented or switched to Eastern practices and there is no logical reason to think one culture is more effective than another based on its age. Since culture is something that is taught and learned, all cultures technically have a lineage.

We have some pretty fundamental gulfs between our perspectives, so I doubt anything will come of a protracted discussion, but I'll try to address a few of your comments anyway.

- "Well, what is the frequency of people in those countries who historically and currently have any a large amount of say psychic ability? Not many."

Firstly, thanks to a century of immigration and globalisation (not to mention, in the case of Daoism and Chan & Tibetan Buddhism, violent persecution), we're talking less about a geographical "East" than the we are about the training methodologies which historically descend from that location, especially when discussing beginning and intermediate training. Of course it's an incredibly vague description no matter how we define it, but without going far more in depth, it'll have to do.

Secondly, we're not talking about the population at large, we're talking specifically about dedicated practitioners of what I'll group under the label of systems of metaphysical development (Yoga and Tantra, Qigong and Neigong, Internal Alchemy, assorted other systems of meditation, various systems of magic, etc etc), since I'm not a fan of the "psychic" label for a huge number of reasons.

Third, what matters in the context of the point I was making isn't the absolute number of people who have achieved success in these practices, but the relative number of people who have achieved that success using traditional Eastern training as opposed to training in the traditional Western esoteric current, attempted self training or bastardised syncretic methodologies. Of course, in absolute terms, such success is rare within any given general population group - just as successful authors, athletes, scientists or what have you are also rare in any given general population.

Fourth, as there has been very little in-depth scientific examination of these systems, East or West, let alone detailed polling of how many people have achieved what level of success with which systems, you're basically saying "well, in absolute terms success is rare everywhere, so it doesn't matter if it's more common, even by a large degree, in certain traditions/lineages." I'm sure I don't have to point out how flawed that line of reason is. There's also the issue of the definition of "success" varying from system to system - another of the issues I take with the Western traditions is that in the modern era, they hold the bar for success extremely low, and don't even have the  conceptual framework, let alone practical methodology, for the higher levels of practice and attainment found in Eastern traditions. Even at the beginners level, there are huge holes, such as the complete lack of physical training in the Hermetic system prior to the adoption of Vedic Yoga by the Occult Revival era practitioners.

- "If it were not, then it would be a common and familiar experience endemic to human society."

Not necessarily. Nobody doubts that world class athletes can perform extraordinary physical feats, but if I walked into a random party and claimed to be an Olympic gold medallist, then people are likely to be sceptical unless I can back up my claims. They might be less sceptical if we instead met at a gym run by world class athletic coaches, but they would probably still maintain reserve until proof was provided either way. Metaphysical achievement is much the same - a surprising number of people believe it's possible, especially once you get outside the bubble of Western middle class reductionist materialism, but that doesn't mean they'll believe every asshole running around claiming to be a grand master (rightfully so).

In short, what you're ignoring is that the vast majority of Eastern traditional lineages maintain that to progress in these fields, extraordinary dedication and hard work is required, just like any other human endeavour.

 This is another one of the flaws within Western esoteric teachings - due to misinformation caused by the problems I mentioned in my last post, and perpetuated by popular culture, many people are lead to believe that attainment is either purely a matter of luck (ie. that "powers" are something you're born or gifted with - one reason I avoid the word "psychic," since it has come to heavily imply this), or that it can simply be obtained by following spells and rituals the same way you would follow the recipe out of a cook book. This is less the case than it used to be, but it's an attitude which seems to still seep in at a subconscious level, as opposed to the emphasis on hard work and dedication generally found in Eastern lineages. Putting aside methodologies, this gap in approach alone is, imo, quite likely to account for a solid chunk of the difference in the levels of success found in Eastern schools v. Western schools.

- "The majority of people on this planet are religious or spiritual in some shape or form; however, most people aren't moving objects around that can be seen without analysis"

You can't equate "being religious/spiritual" with having success in metaphysical development. The former is simply a worldview, the latter is a result of hard work within the context of correct training.

- "Secondly, when you speak of a "lineage", you are speaking of how things are taught to people and how those things are further taught. You are speaking of a culture, essentially."

Not quite. I'm speaking of a specific practical methodology for training to attain certain results, being passed down correctly from one individual to the next across generations. These systems are obviously coloured by culture, and colour the culture they exist within, as with any field of human endeavour, but they're based on the demonstrated success of certain schools of training techniques. Roughly speaking, a pedagogy, as you more accurately termed it later.

 - "Something is not true by virtue of having a particular culture."

Of course not - but something either achieves the desired results or does not based, at least to a large degree, on whether it consists of the proper methodology.

"it seems as if you are making an assumption that one culture is more likely to give results than another based on what appears to be age and how closely it matches up to some arbitrarily proposed cannon of beliefs."

No, I'm making the evaluation that one system of learning (or group of systems of learning) is more likely to provide results than another system (or group of systems) of learning based on the ability of the students of that system to demonstrate the relevant results.

To go back to analogies - If I wanted to be an Olympic athlete, I'd do it by looking to see which coach was having the best success at producing students capable of competing in, and winning, Olympic medals. If I wanted to be a silicon valley programmer, I'd do it by looking to see which University's tech department was producing students with the greatest hiring rate and career trajectory in silicon valley (and, obviously, move to America). If I wanted to be a world class surgeon, I'd look at world class surgeons and find out which medical schools they graduated from. All I'm doing is taking that same train of logic and applying it to metaphysical matters. I decided on what I wanted to achieve, I looked at who had achieved it, and then I went to them with the hope that they would guide me through the process of achieving it that they themselves had undertaken.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:51:59 PM by Kemetin »

September 23, 2017, 05:21:30 PM
Reply #31

Hellblazer

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So basically every system is bullshit. Right? Because that's what I'm seeing so far.

September 24, 2017, 05:56:14 PM
Reply #32

Hellblazer

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The only thing that I know is legit, is that if your change your subconscious beliefs you change. That mindset is everything and stuff "magically" popping out of nowhere does not exist. That all spirits and entities are just psychology props. The practice of magick being nothing more than psychological theatrics.

September 25, 2017, 01:57:42 AM
Reply #33

Kemetin

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Quote
Hence why I did not respond to Kemetin's post.

Except you did... twice now...  :)

Quote
I don't believe in Qigong, Hermetics, Vedic whatever, or anything like that, and your argument has no numbers attached to it, so there is no reason for me to think it even pragmatically valid.

Believe or disbelieve whatever you want, it's your life, but I feel obliged to point out that nothing you've said so far has had numbers attached to it either. Personally, belief isn't a huge factor for me - I care first and foremost about personal experience of practical results.

Quote
So basically every system is bullshit. Right? Because that's what I'm seeing so far.

I'm still curious - exactly what you were practising for all those years, and why on earth did you keep practising it for so long if you weren't getting notable results?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 02:07:27 AM by Kemetin »

September 25, 2017, 03:32:08 AM
Reply #34

Oxide

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I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student...........

May I ask what system(s) you are following or practising, please?

September 25, 2017, 03:47:25 AM
Reply #35

Oxide

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This is what I am speaking of Akenu. You people are crazy, and I feel like I can say that seeing as you just tried to stalk me and dropped an alias I use online on my social media pages in the forum that you thought was personal information.....

...... What you did is called surveillance; it is part of stalking. The purpose behind stalking is essentially to exert an influence on people where you dropped what you thought was personal information as a means to intimidate me, which is not going to work.........

This is worrying, Ryan. I am concerned. How is it possible that someone can stalk you on this forum? Could someone stalk me, by me being on this forum, or any forum for that matter? How can I protect myself from this?

September 25, 2017, 06:43:56 AM
Reply #36

Hellblazer

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I think the one thing that magick and religion have is common is, don't question. Once you start you won't like the answers you find. If you really want to create a change in your life, do something that changes it. You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, which'll fill up first?

September 25, 2017, 08:55:09 AM
Reply #37

Hellblazer

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Rayn I didn't get along with you in the past, but I find myself agreeing with you more and more.

September 25, 2017, 02:34:33 PM
Reply #38

delusionsofgranduer

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I like to lurk on occult/magic forums sometimes to see how other people's opinion on the metaphysical.  I've found these communities to be a mixed bag for the most part.  I've met lots of wise and thoughtful people on there who I've learned a lot from.  On the other hand I've also met a lot of obnoxious arrogant people as well.  A lot of long time occultists on these forums  believe that just because their belief systems are really old that it somehow makes them superior.

For example, I've met many so called amazing hermetic magicians and chaos magick adepts who are dismissive of anything that doesn't conform to their worldview.  When you try bringing up psionics or anomalous cognition to them most of them will role their eyes and dismiss it out of hand.  I'm sorry, you believe that masturbating on a some squiggles on a piece of paper is going to change the universe but can't suspend belief to consider psychic abilities? 

What's so bothersome though is that there is such an utter contempt for trying to investigate these things scientifically.  Apparently all magic is just ineffable subjective experience that cannot be analyzed using logic or reasoning.  I think transcendental subjective experiences are wonderful and they have their place in creating a logical framework for this phenomena, but that doesn't mean we have to rule out scientific analysis.  Using science doesn't mean accepting materialist reductionism or giving up on your spirituality; its just a tool for us to discover how metaphysical stuff works.

Sometimes I think it sucks knowing that we will probably never have a comprehensive understanding in our lifetimes.  Who knows what scientists in a 1000 years will find out about how souls, metaphysical abilities, and psi really work. 

September 25, 2017, 06:32:28 PM
Reply #39

Hellblazer

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I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.

September 25, 2017, 07:32:10 PM
Reply #40

Kemetin

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Rayn - I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, because it's a nice spring afternoon and there are better ways to spend it than dredging through your pseudoscientific diatribe.

1) I never said anything about  "super duper duper special teachers" or "ancient secrets," you're projecting your own preconceived notions onto what I said.  All I'm saying is that if you want to train in a system which will help you develop "metaphysically," then you're by far most likely to do so successfully if you find a system with practitioners who can demonstrate success (whatever that happens to be to you - not everyone has the obsession with flashy-but-useless psychokinetics that you seem to possess), and then follow the same method under their guidance. Exactly as you would in any other field of endeavour.

2) A lot of the rest of what you're rambling on about we've already discussed to what I feel is more or less the point of conclusion in a thread from last year: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22957.0.html If there's anyone here reading this who cares (which I doubt) they can find my objections to your "inductive reasoning" and etc. in my posts in that thread.

As I'm fairly sure I said there, but I'm going to reiterate nobody would be happier than me to see science finally make a genuine and wholehearted effort at studying these phenomena, but until that happens (and I'm fairly convinced it will within our lifetime - although people were saying the same thing over a century ago), my attitude is that the most practical approach is to make do with using pre-existing cosmologies as working models.

3) You seem incredibly invested in a lot of things you claim to not believe in, given the amount of time, effort and emotion you're going out of your way to repeatedly pour into arguing about it on an empty website. I'd suggest you try some introspection, chill out and look for something better to do with your time. Maybe some meditation would help you relax :)

I'm bowing out. If you wanna keep jumping all over this dead horse, have fun.





November 06, 2017, 03:21:48 PM
Reply #41

Akenu

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I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.

November 10, 2017, 04:24:00 PM
Reply #42

Hellblazer

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I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.

November 13, 2017, 01:09:28 AM
Reply #43

Akenu

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I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.




So, if you go through your records backwards, which of your results do you perceive as confirmation bias?

November 14, 2017, 08:58:49 AM
Reply #44

Hellblazer

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I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.




So, if you go through your records backwards, which of your results do you perceive as confirmation bias?
All of it.