Author Topic: My oh my we are a sad little place  (Read 2194 times)

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September 14, 2017, 02:39:03 PM
Reply #15

Akenu

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In the long run what's the point. You get a shot of those feel good chemicals and then you to chase that ghost again and again.

If you want me to tell you the truth. I regret becoming an occultist. I got nothing out of it. Not really. It was a waste of my life. But who gives a flying fuck. People waste their lives on a lot of things. Everything is meaningless anyway and when we die game over. So no matter how much you aspire to be a grand sorcerer it's ultimately futile.

So, what's the point of sewing, crocheting, drawing, playing on a guitar, learning to swim, learning to play baseball, football... There will be no one remembering you doing that in a 1000 years...

To be frank, it's pretty damn fun, way more fun than nihilism ;-).

September 14, 2017, 02:42:43 PM
Reply #16

Hellblazer

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September 14, 2017, 02:57:09 PM
Reply #17

Akenu

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September 15, 2017, 10:35:39 AM
Reply #18

Hellblazer

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You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.

September 16, 2017, 03:16:12 AM
Reply #19

Akenu

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You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.


Oh, definitely, there are also more important things than brushing your teeth, yet you do it each day and more than once.

September 16, 2017, 11:10:17 PM
Reply #20

MikeWho

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There used to be a lot of leadership here. I had given up the arts when I finally and successfully summoned a spirit. I was so terrified that in the evening I burnt every book pertaining to the occult to a crisp, smashed my black obsidian mirror, etc etc, and decided to stick with music.


In all honesty, you can't ever forget a thing such as summoning a spirit, because at that point, you've proven to yourself that without a doubt this thing is very real and very terrifying. I've never felt so vulnerable.

However, it dawns on me that in these days and ages, maybe there is a little bit of purpose for it having happened, and maybe we'll see more old members start flushing again, such as my self.

September 17, 2017, 08:01:26 AM
Reply #21

Hellblazer

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You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.


Oh, definitely, there are also more important things than brushing your teeth, yet you do it each day and more than once.
You know why that is? Because you can see results from brushing your teeth or any personal hygiene routine. That's where real change occurs. Just using magical affirmations vs. intentional actions or in a more colorful term True Direct Magick. Affirmations have their place. They can be used to get your mind into a single direction but nothing changes unless you (meaning anyone) changes it.

A fat ass can cast all the spells they want, but without action they'll still be a fat ass. Nothing is free in life, it takes time, effort, and dedication to achieve anything. I've lost all tolerance for anything spiritual. Gods, demons, angels. They only exist within your imagination. They can be used as a metaphysical placebo and that all well and good, but to take any of this shit seriously. That's just stupid. It's like those fools who get suicidal depressed because they "sinned".

There used to be a lot of leadership here. I had given up the arts when I finally and successfully summoned a spirit. I was so terrified that in the evening I burnt every book pertaining to the occult to a crisp, smashed my black obsidian mirror, etc etc, and decided to stick with music.


In all honesty, you can't ever forget a thing such as summoning a spirit, because at that point, you've proven to yourself that without a doubt this thing is very real and very terrifying. I've never felt so vulnerable.


However, it dawns on me that in these days and ages, maybe there is a little bit of purpose for it having happened, and maybe we'll see more old members start flushing again, such as my self.
To the bold. If all it take is summoning a spirit to convince you. Then you're already primed for magical thinking. What the hell happened to actually testing things? Did everyone forget the magicians journal? Testing, research, etc. We are supposed to be in a way scientist of the psyche. What happened to that? Did it all become new age bullshit. Wish really hard and let the "cosmos" crap out the golden egg?

My frustration with the occult community is the same with the L.O.A. crowd. Magical thinking and wishful thinking. It seems so few dig deeper into things anymore. They want a quick fix for shit that would take a little planning and effort. Magick is NOT a give it to me without effort thing. It's a part. Intention and Action. Getting your conscious and subconscious onto the same page. Ending that inner struggle and achieving things.

The formula is simple. Cast your will however you desire (I don't care) and act. That's it. Without effort you'll only end up with confirmation and cognitive bias. A bunch of false positives. Yet we do not discuss this in occult communities. No one wants to hear it or even acknowledge it. No wonder things get stagnant.

September 17, 2017, 04:40:31 PM
Reply #22

Iatros

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Magical and spiritual practices DO bring benefits, just look at the research on meditation: increased attention and empathy, decreased anxiety and less reactivity to stressors including pain,  an altered EEG phenotype suggesting the above,  as well as a smaller amygdala with greater connectivity to the frontal lobe,  suggesting greater control over the
more "negative" emotions... Positive changes in gene expression,  longer telomeres suggesting less cellular aging... The list goes on and on. The mind affects the body.

While you seem to be comfortable throwing around the term "placebo," you seem to miss its implications. Placebos work. They work better than if nothing had been done to treat an illness, for example. How do you think placebos work? A mental state of expectation influences the brain,  somehow. Of course,  according to hardline materialism like you seem to believe in,  a mental state is either not a real thing and therefore can't affect matter, or is a state of the brain, in which case the brain effectively decides to hurt or heal itself or the body. The placebo effect even persists when the subject knows that they are receiving a placebo. Hypnosis may suggest an entire field of manipulating the placebo effect in the self and others.

If the placebo effect can, in this way, be used arbitrarily to create physiological and psychological changes in people, merely by creating a mental / brain state of expectation of that effect, then right there you have validation for a whole host of the mystical magical practices that you have had such a falling out with.

The value in the mysticism and magic, from that perspective,  is that they are frameworks in which people can believe, in order to elicit useful placebo effects systematically and at will.

What exactly is your issue,  then,  with someone practicing magic because it is psychologically compelling, when it elicits real placebo effects?

As for "spooky action at a distance," Google Scholar > Anomalous Cognition / Perturbation or even one of the older terms for psi like ESP or PK like I did for you in the other thread. There is plenty of evidence in favor, and if anything the field of parapsychology is gaining in acceptance.
"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa

September 17, 2017, 06:51:59 PM
Reply #23

Intrepid

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Hellblazer:  so why are you here?

September 18, 2017, 02:28:41 PM
Reply #24

Akenu

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Wait, did Rayn just post a readable comment? How long have I been gone?  ???


Anyway, yes, scientific evidence so far is not exactly breath-taking and if you remember, in the past I have mentioned also some miscalculations in the statistics, namely wrongly calculated z-score. But also keep in mind, the research is still going and is underfunded so it takes time (and yes, there are more critical topics like medicine and renewable energy sources).

September 18, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Reply #25

Hellblazer

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Look I get the whole social and personal benefits of metaphysical practices. And I damn well understand the mind-body effects due to the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is that magick is not a cure all. It gets really old seeing request for love and/or money spell from lazy bastards who want something for free. Using a spell or sigil to change your subconscious beliefs which "bleed over" into your thoughts, feels, and actions. Sure no problem. Someone levitation, I'm highly skeptical of the "super power" aspect. Too many years and too many hits and misses. You have people joining the occult community with the idea that they will become a living god. :rolleyes:

Sorry no dice. And yes this is a lot of personal anger coming out. Perhaps I just need to vent my feelings towards to occult. Do I hate it? No. I hate what it is though. Not so much as someone praying to wtf-ever god/s/ess's they choose. I don't care. I'm pretty much an indifferent agnostic towards the spiritual, which I see as being more like Emotion. The psychological and emotional aspect of feeling like you've got some control in your life can be comforting, used to be to me as well. Then I realized quite harshly that magick, does not fix problems. It can change how you see things. Those subconscious programs. But nothing will just be instantly solved through it. Plus flinging curses at people doesn't do anything. There are so many explanations for what happens that magick just doesn't look like magick. It looks like self-help with more theatrics.

Yes I'm bitching. I've got this duel struggle of forgetting my past which was years of my life and moving on. Or I go back to it. I'm angry because I feel that I've wasted a shit ton of years on something that was in a way a dead end. I'm sure none of you level 99 mages have ever felt that way. So fuck me for feeling like I have no reason to exist anymore.

September 18, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
Reply #26

delusionsofgranduer

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The initial reason I joined this website two years ago was to become a psion (someone should invent a less cringy term tbh).  My main motivation regarding learning psi was to prove to myself that there is some kind of objective spiritual/metaphysical feature to reality.  I wanted to basically prove the mainstream materialist reductionist worldview was wrong.  That we were more then just electrochemical reactions taking place in some blob of fat and meat.

After I was able to make the candle flame move according to my intentions consistently for the first time I was expecting a profound life changing experience.  I didn't really get that.  Sure I was able to move around a candle flame and sometimes affect a random number generator but all in all it was very underwhelming and useless.  I was expecting to be able to experience some profound spiritual awareness; everything would finally be crystal clear to me.  I think the moment I really stopped considering using psi for practical purposes was when I realized that my time and energy was probably better spent pursuing a practical path to my goals instead of something more esoteric. 

Honestly I don't really know you at all Hellblazer (by the way I love that comic series!), but maybe it would be beneficial to just put all this occult stuff behind you.  If according to you its just useless mystical masturbation; its probably better for you to just leave the occult scene entirely.  If you're angry for wasting all your time and effort on trying to make this stuff work, just focus on something more tangible.  And even if this stuff is just a pathetic form of role playing; that doesn't mean it's useless.  I'm sure there are some skills you've learned over the course of your time practicing magic which can be translated into more practical matters.  If nothing else, now it's easier for you to spot bullshit. :wink:

I understand your frustration and bitterness though.  When you work so hard trying to accomplish something and realize that you still fail, time and time again.  I don't think I'm very good at all that psi stuff to be honest.  It requires a sort of self confidence and mental focus which I don't really possess, especially considering how much more scatterbrained and doubtful I am then the average person.  For me, psi practice and focal meditation made me realize how flawed and lazy I really am. 

I'm trying to pick up psi again after all the chaos in my life settles down.  I want to help myself psychologically as well as practically  That's why I hope we can inject some more life into this site!  It's good motivation to help my lazy ass persevere through this practice.  :)

September 18, 2017, 04:14:41 PM
Reply #27

Hellblazer

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I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.

September 19, 2017, 03:17:19 AM
Reply #28

Hellblazer

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And the only thing my interest in the occult lead me to was psychology. How the mind works, how beliefs affect us. That's why I call magick a collection of self-help techniques. Because that's what it really looks like. A series of magical affirmations performed through self-hypnosis. There are no instant results. There are progressive results. And inner working are always the best. So no I do not have problem with what people do. I think it's the exaggerated claims that urk me so much. Casting a spell to find love will change you first, and in turn you will change the things around you.  That is how I see it. It all starts from within. That I get. In a way I get the bad ass appeal of "summoning a demon". It's an ego trip. Makes you feels strong or powerful. But unless you act nothing changes. A young witch cursing her ex-boyfriend through some simple spell might just me a mental release of all her emotional pain, which can be therapeutic. This is the aspect I get. It's always why I can see personal rituals being way more "powerful" than by the book ones. It's a lot like using an affirmation you constructed every morning to get your head in the right place. You do this "ritual" each day and your day goes according or close to the mindset you tired to develop. All this to me is real and practical magick. Not the hocus pocus stuff.

September 22, 2017, 06:35:52 PM
Reply #29

Kemetin

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I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.

What were you practising for all those years?

Either way, your situation is a common one. I personally think a huge part of the problem is the state of Western esoteric tradition - for historical reasons, it's just too watered down, too much has been lost or distorted or corrupted or mashed together with other things that just aren't compatible. There's just not enough left to serve as a viable system of development, which is why even the allegedly "successful" Western magicians almost universally supplement their training heavily with Eastern practices.

I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student. Nobody would try to learn surgery or chemistry or any other serious pursuit using books downloaded off the internet (and nobody would trust them to practice it if they did), it's insane to think that magic or spiritual development are somehow the exception.

 And it bypasses the whole question of faith or belief and the whole stupid mess of trying to "prove that it's real" out of old grimoires or shitty newage books (or god forbid, websites like psipog), because any teacher worth studying under can demonstrate their attainment firsthand.

I've learned and progressed more in a year of direct training under competent teachers than I did in all of the time I wasted floundering around under the hacks who cling to the Western tradition so they can take advantage of desperate seekers who have a preconceived notion of what their path should look like, or the time I wasted messing around with books before that.

These days I personally lean towards thinking that we need to recognise a lost cause for what it is, and cut off the rotting branch so something new can grow, but that's just me.