Author Topic: Why did all the New Thought authors get old and die?  (Read 2741 times)

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February 18, 2016, 01:54:24 AM
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Lakshmi

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It's just... Many (most?) of them seemed sincere. Neville Goddard, for example, never accepted any payment, so he wasn't trying to scam people. And many (most?) of them seemed to profess a belief that there is no need to get old, sick, or die - that as long as you keep your thoughts focused on a healthy, vibrant image of yourself, you will stay healthy and vibrant. And yet, they all died, most at about 70.

I'm actually hoping there is a good reason other than "they were misguided" ... Whenever I read one of these books by a well-respected new thought person, I google to see what happened to them.... And I haven't come across a single one who lived to say 90 or 100 (much less forever), and they all appeared to get older just like the people who didn't share their beliefs... None seem to die of anything nasty, like cancer - but then sometimes it just doesn't say what they died of, so who knows?

February 18, 2016, 01:58:41 AM
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Akenu

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@Lakshmi: Not misguided, more like dedicated. Be happy for them because now we can clearly say: "Nope, believing you won't get old won't protect you from aging, either". Without them we could never say that.

This is how the progress is made, by analyzing all the possibilities, current development and also blind branches. We could actually say that Goddard and others are heroes for those who seek immortality.

February 18, 2016, 08:22:49 AM
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Explorer

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I'm actually hoping there is a good reason other than "they were misguided"

How about "karma/fate" ?  :)

February 18, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
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Mind_Bender

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Because they didn't practice Kung Fu. Obviously.  :P

Probably because they didn't have a firm understanding of internal health like the Daoists and Yogi's. They understood the power of the Mind quite well and had very effective techniques for positive thought, word, and action, and how that creates a good vibe around the person, and even good methods of manifestation, but I think they lacked the understanding of the alchemy of the internal organs that is so popular in the East on how to cleanse, gather and harness vitality through internal alchemy. Although some of them did talk about healthy eating habits and regular exercise, maybe their internal power was depleted by an imbalance. According to Five Elements Theory of Chinese Medicine using too much of one organ depletes it and starts depleting the vitality of other organs. In this instance, they may have overused their brains and endocrine system without having a proper knowledge of gathering vital essence or not knowing the proper foods and exercises for organ health.

... Or not. Just a guess.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

February 18, 2016, 09:13:18 PM
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Steve

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So... the first problem is that this movement is super old. "The New Thought movement was based on the teachings of Phineas Quimby (180266)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought#History

The second problem is that it's based on religious ideology/doctrine. This isn't to say that all religious ideology is inherently wrong, but religion should be for the "how to live one's life" rather than the poor attempt at science, especially when one bases their beliefs upon other beliefs.

The third problem is that they were wrong in the idea that all diseases are mental in origin. That's since been corrected by modern science which shows that some sicknesses are internal to the body/mind alone (like cancer), and others are due to external things that come into our bodies and affect the internal systems (like some germs and bacteria).

The fourth problem is that I'm not seeing anywhere that says they believed in immortality, so there's actually nothing wrong with them dying. Them dying in their 70s would probably be more to do with the medicine of the time. http://ourworldindata.org/data/population-growth-vital-statistics/life-expectancy/ um, actually, according to that, holy crap a large group of proponents all living to 70 would have been a really big deal o_o Are you sure they all lived that long? Oh wait, unless you're talking about more modern people (since you mentioned Neville Goddard, who died in 1972). So I guess the fourth ... point would be a question of: did they all/mostly remain "healthy and vibrant"? :)

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

February 19, 2016, 03:52:47 AM
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Lakshmi

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Oh, loads of them did say that there was no need to ever age. Even a lot of these "Law of Attraction" (which is the new name for New Thought IMO) say that you don't need to age. Esther Hicks used to say that, but she looks kinda old now (and her husband died of cancer).

William Walker Atkinson was greatly influenced by eastern philosophies, and published a few books about yoga. He always said that the yogis lived to 90 or 100, but he died at 70.

My mother was big into "New Thought" when I was growing up. She probably pushed me into becoming a scientist, as I used to get frustrated by the illogical and baseless arguments I would hear ;) (and she also used to say that no one ever had to get sick, or age, or die. Come to think of it, I don't think she has ever had any significant illness... Except Alzheimer's, more recently... She's in her eighties though...)

Now I'm older, I'm much less sceptical than I used to be - but it's clear they didn't get everything right, and I'm just trying to learn things and fill in the gaps where I can. I want them to be right, overall :)

February 19, 2016, 06:16:40 AM
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Steve

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Haha, well, a lot of people "believe" in stuff that they never put into practice (or never learn properly).

But for the new thought people specifically, "not aging until you die" is not quite the same as "never aging, and thus never dying from old age". Considering they come from a background of christian beliefs, the point of christianity is that when you die you can be in heaven with god, so ... you'd kind of *want* to die at some point.

Of course, more recent science (than 200 years ago) has shown that a positive attitude and healthy lifestyle go a long way towards living a healthy and vibrant life.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

February 19, 2016, 03:31:04 PM
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Rawiri

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Probably ultimately because they're still human.

I can't speak for most of them, since I haven't read fully what most of them say (it's been a while since I read Atkinson's works, for example).

However, I've read and listened to a lot of Neville Goddard and can say he never claimed someone could live forever in this physical life. He believed in the immortality of "the imagination", but not of the human body and regularly claimed when it's someone's time to go, he will go and frequently acknowledged he would leave this world. So in that particular case I think it's unfair to hold him to a standard he didn't himself claim.

Another case can simply be, even if it were somehow possible like they believed...it still requires work and there's no reason to look up to even sincere people as being all capable. To avoid aging for example, presuming what they believed in such a case were true (which I don't necessarily believe to be so) would require a great deal of work on uprooting ideas of time, aging, death etc in ones mind and a constant awareness of ones thoughts and control over them to prevent slipping back into such thoughts as even possibilities (when bombarded on every side by evidence otherwise). That's not exactly a cake-walk.

In general I don't think someone, or some teaching needs to get everything right to be of value, I doubt it's even possible. So long as you can find something of practical value that actually works in your here-and-now life.  Which I have found to be the case for New Thought authors.

February 20, 2016, 12:38:21 AM
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Lakshmi

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Well, Neville wrote so many things -

Perhaps I am mistaken about him - I was sure that he said that there is no need for the physical body to age or become ill... But I'm not going to trawl through 100-odd essays to try to find it :)

He did certainly say that anything you can imagine (including life situations, not just material things) will be yours - and he gave lots of examples from people who visualised whatever, unfailingly, and then got it. I don't know why health and youth should be an exception to this rule (and if it was an exception, he should have said so explicitly, and explained why it wasn't possible). Not meaning to have a posthumous go at him - I love his stuff. And it always impressed me that he just gave it all away for free, did all those lectures and didn't charge or accept donations. I saw a YouTube video from some guy who went to a Neville lecture, and he said Neville told them not to listen to anyone who took payment or accepted donations - because if you understand this stuff, you don't have to charge other people to get whatever you desire, and if your heart is pure, you should want everyone to have access to the same knowledge.

Great man, Neville. Which is all the more... Why did he die at 67? Even if he had nothing more to do on this earth, his family could surely have benefitted from him sticking around...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 04:07:26 AM by Lakshmi »

February 20, 2016, 08:12:45 AM
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Mind_Bender

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"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

March 04, 2016, 03:56:49 PM
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Hellblazer

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Physically we all age, mentally on the other hand.