Author Topic: The Divine Science (TDS) Ramose (Prophecy) and Veos- Open discussion  (Read 40183 times)

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April 12, 2016, 03:47:40 AM
Reply #255

IIHbuddy89

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IIHbuddy89: For the whole fucking time we are here talking about practice! Even if astral light was BALANCED by default (which it isn't), it doesn't mean it is self-BALANCING (then there would be no long term issues from improper practice).

In fact I already answered to this one many times just read back.

Again if you practise something improperly don't blame others.

And as I mentioned this is not even a TDS specific issue.

You could blame Bardon and his pore breathing or you can go practise with Martin Faulks working with the same energies or you can go to join whatever group you will be working with the same energies again.

So I don't get why people handle this question like it's a TDS specific problem.


Quote
And before "you mentioned that point" I have mentioned it a couple of times and you DISAGREED.

Quote from yesterday (we were talking about the same point you mentioned with People's Champion):

Quote
So if i am an athlet and i want to learn how to jump high or run fast, but i have serious issues with my leg already i should blame my trainer or my team if i got injured? Or even make a website posting lies and cry whole day on different forums how they treated me and not realized how "special" i was?

I seriously don't get it. If you are mentally handicapped or have some serious issues with your nervous system or with your emotions do not practise magic!

It's common sense. Both the elements/fluids and other spiritual energies are very powerful.

Someone should also mention to you directly not to jump off a cliff or you will die?

Or electricity is not your friend especially if your body is wet?

...

Quote
If someone could do that, was aware of risks and could react based on subtle signs, he wouldn't be in TDS to begin with as he would happily go with solitary practice. TDS and teachers should be there to help and guide individuals, but what do I expect from school that claims false heritage AND then completely fucks off any wisdom that is already out there in the lineages they claim to be part of.
Quote
Sorry, I have to say it again, TDS is a complete joke and a ripoff, even if lectures were completely for free, it would still be too expensive.

Yeah says the dude with his crap "magickal curriculum" which ACTUALLY harmful and and a complete joke :D

Irony is strong with you man lol.







April 12, 2016, 03:54:39 AM
Reply #256

Ekstatikos

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Kemetin,

Well for starters, as I detailed in my last post, during my time in the school they did absolutely nothing to either ensure that people were sufficiently healthy for the practices, or to warn them that certain pre-existing health conditions were either contraindicated or would require an altered training regime. No risks were mentioned, no prerequisites in terms of lifestyle or physical/mental/spiritual health status were set. Students simply joined and were given the exercises as long as they participated in weekly Q&A sessions (and handed in short essays/quizzes for the first few months - which I rather enjoyed writing, as an aside, I was sad they did away with those).

...

Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall (if I'm wrong in this, please cite an example) - not so much as a "if you have any pre-existing health problems, talk to your Daskaloi before jumping into doing the full VOA" or anything of the kind. To get information on these kind of things, students would have had to go to third party resources, at the exact time that they were being told to rely first and foremost on the information being given to them by the TDS teachers.

I'd be happy to cite several.

The first and most significant one is from the Probationer course. In fact, this used to be in literally the second lecture that a Probationer at TDS would receive. At this point, the practices expected of the student are still very light (thought observation, pore breathing, and soul mirror work), but this warning is already given:

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Ethos: Self-Governance
This tradition holds firm to the idea that the dense body is a phenomenally important tool to be used in our lives; were this not the case, we would be living in an ethereal world where only our finer vehicles would sustain us. Instead we are in this physical world with a physical body, the primary vehicle of our activities on this plane. No spiritual practice or regime of any sorts should neglect the importance of this precious vehicle.

...

Our physical body, dense and gross as it may be compared to the finer aspects of the self, is still the temple within which those finer aspects are housed. Without it, or even if it falls into disrepair, our higher faculties cannot be utilized in this world. Even if there is no serious problem which it has fallen into, the ability to express certain magical forces through the body is directly proportional to the body’s health. A vibrant, healthy, strong individual will have a vibrant, healthy, and strong flow and expression of inner strength. Therefore, it will be seen as the sacred duty of every aspirant to these mysteries to keep the physical temple in good working condition, free of defect or disease beyond what is inborn and propelled by the forces of fate.

The student of these mysteries should invest the time required to learn proper ways to keep a good, healthy body through exercise, diet, hygiene, and all-around correct living. You are encouraged to keep up with these routines for very practical reasons with regard to magic itself. In the magical workings of this tradition, those students who are capable of expressing a vibrant inner power are far more likely to succeed at a good pace than those who are not. Some of the exercises you will be learning exert a constant but subtle strain upon the body, particularly the nervous system, and if you are not in good health and good shape, this strain can become even more detrimental to your health. The practices will also bring out latent difficulties hidden inside you, illnesses which exist on the energetic level of the elements but not yet in the physical body. Some of these will manifest and be dealt with on an emotional level, but some will have to be birthed through the physical processes to which they are analogous. A pre-existing foundation of good health will make these struggles easier, and prevent them from hindering your meditations or daily life for days or weeks.


Physical exercise is practically a panacea for the body, serving to stimulate the currents of vital life-giving power within us all. The aspirant to this science should aspire to be strong and have good endurance, which will both increase the strain the body can handle as well as give a more vibrant inner power. This does not mean that you should be a world-class weightlifter and runner; quite to the contrary, too much attention to the physical body in this manner can have adverse affects on the higher faculties. In strength, one should simply be fit. In endurance, one should have a healthy stamina. Towards this end one is advised to pick up a healthy hobby requiring physical exertion. This can be biking, hiking, mountain climbing, martial arts, jogging, tennis, any manner of sport, vinyasa yoga (the physical asanas), etc.; anything which stimulates your physical body, encourages overall health, and keeps you active. Just a peaceful walk in the sunlight every now and then! Do something to keep the body frequently vitalized with fresh energy. No amount of meditation, or at least none that the average person can hope to do, will ever replace the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. Many meditators have made the mistake of thinking as much in the past, and have failed in their pursuits because of their negligence of the body.

So there it is, right at the beginning of the aspirant's education - a warning about the importance of good health.

I thought I'd share some more examples in terms of specific practices. First, for pore breathing and the accumulation of the vital force (the latter only being introduced after the Probationer class):

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Mageia: Pore Breathing
The mind must be controlled during this exercise. If you get swept off into random thinking, especially with any emotion in it, the exercise should be stopped for a moment while you regain control of your mind. Otherwise your thoughts and emotions will impress themselves on the energy, which will give more substance to them, and anchor them further into your psyche. This is the reason for such extended focus on personal thought control in the beginning practices.

Quote from:  TDS Preliminary Eduction Lecture - Mageia: The Vital Force
The student is reminded that the vital force is an immensely powerful energy, and in all accumulations it is unwise to push one’s self beyond reason. To that end we recommend that all students begin with seven accumulations twice each day, but not fourteen in one sitting. Once the student can feel the vital force at seven accumulations, and it does not feel straining, then he can progress to ten accumulations, twice daily. After one month of practicing at this amount, he may slowly, at his own discretion, raise the number of accumulations done up to twenty, twice a day. However, no student should raise the accumulations more than two per sitting each week. Be slow and methodic, and remember that this is no race; the wise and prudent achieve the results much faster than the quick and foolhardy.

Again, warnings are present, they are right there for anyone who cares to look. Finally, from the Vision of the Angel lecture:

Quote from:  TDS Level 1 Lecture - Mysteria: The Vision of the Angel
Again, however, many students have never practiced anything as intensive as the Vision of the Angel is. They may be new to meditation, or to practicing visualization. For those students, we have composed two beginning versions of the Vision of the Angel, each of them still highly effective, but serving as a smooth step-up system for practicing the entire technique. You may practice these at your own discretion for as long as you feel is needed to acquire the experience in meditation necessary for the full VOA. You will find that, though simplified, they will still bring amazing results. Students looking for an exact time frame should spend one month on the first version, one month on the second, and then move on to the full version of the technique. Even if you decide to go straight to the practice of the full version be sure that you read the commentaries of the other two versions first, wherein certain important things are explained.

Not exactly a warning, but a caution to proceed at a comfortable pace at least.

So, it is not the case that there was no mention of risk and so on. There was. Also, the issue of impressing things onto the vital force and thereby exacerbating things is addressed. Now the interesting part is that this is not mentioned for work with the astral light (as in the Vision of the Angel) - maybe it's less of an issue? Again, I leave this an open question.


Akenu,

IIHbuddy89: For the whole fucking time we are here talking about practice! Even if astral light was BALANCED by default (which it isn't), it doesn't mean it is self-BALANCING (then there would be no long term issues from improper practice).

Can you explain why you don't believe the astral light is balanced, or self-balancing?

...but what do I expect from school that claims false heritage AND then completely fucks off any wisdom that is already out there in the lineages they claim to be part of.

I've seen you mention the lineage claims often, in fact it seems to be something you keep coming back to. What exactly is your problem with TDS's lineage claims?


Pax_Valeos,

Side-effects of the practices

...

Even if you sat and simply watched the breath every day for two hours daily, or if you went on a meditation retreat that didn't engage in any magical practices, but simply body mindfulness or breath awareness meditation such as seen on many modern retreats, you will see most people describe an awful lot of purification going on. This is simply the case when the mind becomes still, and the energies arise within. Most of the energy, at first, is going to be spend on purifying the energetic channels from poor lifestyle, negative thoughts and a host of other things. If there is illness present in the body that has not manifested yet, the increased vitality from meditation will allow this disease to manifest. Did meditation cause the disease, or did it simply reveal it?

Every Master will tell you that meditation didn't cause the disease, it simply increased the vitality of the practitioner to such a degree that the disease manifested. This is a gift, is it not? With the disease manifested one can now take actual steps to remedy/solve it. Whether that be through Traditional Chinese medicine or it be through Western medicine depending on the issue -- this is up to the individual person to experiment and figure out for oneself.

Thus, the point being, in many cases -- side-effects from the practices are in high likelihood (I can of course not speak of every practice, nor every practictioners case) actually due to certain purifications taking place. I like to believe that the teachers in TDS are well-versed in what they are doing that they actually know how to put things together that are not harmful for students, but simply are very strongly purifying. This isn't just... for fun, or for some psychological benefit. It's for actual spiritual evolution... and anyone that has truly dedicated himself to such a Path knows that there is lots of suffering that must be gone through for enlightenment to be reached. As they say, the Path doesn't just require effort, it requires extra-ordinary effort. Something else to mention here is that those "side-effects" may simply show themselves in your life as manifested karmas. This is natural as one evolves spiritually, certain experiences will occur, certain things will manifest in one's life, and sometimes this can be very, very rough, but it is all for the evolution of your being. 

...

One size fits all

Another point to make of this is that I haven't at even one point seen people on TDS say that there are not certain things that are better for a particular person than other things. As a matter of fact, I dealt with some issues myself and I was dealt with promptly and given additional exercises to deal specifically with that matter. I think in many cases this comes down to the dedication of the student. If you are very dedicated, you will of course look to make your progress as wholesome as possible, and thus, if you feel you lack certain things or there are certain things that are not working well for you, you are inclined to talk to your teacher about it. Sometimes this can be a way of the ego saying: "I don't want to do this hard work, because I know that it will mean a lot of pain and suffering", other times there are legitimate concerns that need to be worked out. In all cases -- it is quite simple: talk to your teacher.

I find it rather funny that it almost seems like people come here and claim that the teachers are not forthcoming or you cannot talk to them. As a matter of fact, from all I have experienced, they are some of the most forthcoming people. If you ask, you'll get an answer. It may not be the answer you would've liked to hear, but in many cases (I'm sure) it will be the answer you need to hear. Another thing about them is that they they won't pat you on your back whenever you do good. They expect dedication and hard work from their students. You shouldn't expect appraisals when you do good, and in many cases, the teacher will avoid telling the student something because the teacher believes that the student has the insight to fully see to it himself. Sometimes the nature of such interactions can be very hard to understand from the limited ego-perspective.

While this may not be the case at the outer school, sometimes the most strangest of behaviours from teachers are often for the benefit of their students. Read about the teachers in any spiritual tradition and you'll see that to be the case. Some examples could be a teacher always being very harsh with a specific student because that student has particular emotional problems that needs to be dealt with. I know there are some spiritual teachers that even ridicule some of their students who have self-esteem issues. From a westerners perspective this looks outrageous, but from people that know that the most spiritual evolution can come from certain amounts of hardship and that in actuality, the teacher is doing this out of the greatest compassion, sometimes that is the case.

Those are excellent points - they have been in the back of my head but I haven't been sure how to express them properly, thank you.
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April 12, 2016, 04:06:13 AM
Reply #257

Akenu

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@IIHbuddy89: Even a healthy individual can be harmed in top sports event, you somehow keep omitting that, but regarding any harmful things in Magickal Curriculum, I am listening, surprise me ;-).

@Ekstatikos: My problem is that the school is few years old, it doesn't really inherit any ancient lineage, it doesn't have any document proving it follows a hermetic tradition (or yogic), its courses are not based on ancient wisdom, but on experimentation on its students. First students were told to X, second generation of students was told Y is the right thing and now we have Z if I count correctly. That's something a peer group should do and based on general agreement, not playing freaky with gullible students and each time telling them this is the heritage of ancient lineages. That school is fucking young and being led by 2 young twins that never even visited a real occultist, yet they claim extraordinary hermetic and alchemic knowledge including the philosopher's stone.

If Ramose ever held a philosopher's stone as he claimed on Veritas a while ago, then I am pope of England.

April 12, 2016, 04:08:04 AM
Reply #258

Rodz

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Kemetin,

Well for starters, as I detailed in my last post, during my time in the school they did absolutely nothing to either ensure that people were sufficiently healthy for the practices, or to warn them that certain pre-existing health conditions were either contraindicated or would require an altered training regime. No risks were mentioned, no prerequisites in terms of lifestyle or physical/mental/spiritual health status were set. Students simply joined and were given the exercises as long as they participated in weekly Q&A sessions (and handed in short essays/quizzes for the first few months - which I rather enjoyed writing, as an aside, I was sad they did away with those).

...

Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall (if I'm wrong in this, please cite an example) - not so much as a "if you have any pre-existing health problems, talk to your Daskaloi before jumping into doing the full VOA" or anything of the kind. To get information on these kind of things, students would have had to go to third party resources, at the exact time that they were being told to rely first and foremost on the information being given to them by the TDS teachers.

I'd be happy to cite several.

The first and most significant one is from the Probationer course. In fact, this used to be in literally the second lecture that a Probationer at TDS would receive. At this point, the practices expected of the student are still very light (thought observation, pore breathing, and soul mirror work), but this warning is already given:

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Ethos: Self-Governance
This tradition holds firm to the idea that the dense body is a phenomenally important tool to be used in our lives; were this not the case, we would be living in an ethereal world where only our finer vehicles would sustain us. Instead we are in this physical world with a physical body, the primary vehicle of our activities on this plane. No spiritual practice or regime of any sorts should neglect the importance of this precious vehicle.

...

Our physical body, dense and gross as it may be compared to the finer aspects of the self, is still the temple within which those finer aspects are housed. Without it, or even if it falls into disrepair, our higher faculties cannot be utilized in this world. Even if there is no serious problem which it has fallen into, the ability to express certain magical forces through the body is directly proportional to the body’s health. A vibrant, healthy, strong individual will have a vibrant, healthy, and strong flow and expression of inner strength. Therefore, it will be seen as the sacred duty of every aspirant to these mysteries to keep the physical temple in good working condition, free of defect or disease beyond what is inborn and propelled by the forces of fate.

The student of these mysteries should invest the time required to learn proper ways to keep a good, healthy body through exercise, diet, hygiene, and all-around correct living. You are encouraged to keep up with these routines for very practical reasons with regard to magic itself. In the magical workings of this tradition, those students who are capable of expressing a vibrant inner power are far more likely to succeed at a good pace than those who are not. Some of the exercises you will be learning exert a constant but subtle strain upon the body, particularly the nervous system, and if you are not in good health and good shape, this strain can become even more detrimental to your health. The practices will also bring out latent difficulties hidden inside you, illnesses which exist on the energetic level of the elements but not yet in the physical body. Some of these will manifest and be dealt with on an emotional level, but some will have to be birthed through the physical processes to which they are analogous. A pre-existing foundation of good health will make these struggles easier, and prevent them from hindering your meditations or daily life for days or weeks.


Physical exercise is practically a panacea for the body, serving to stimulate the currents of vital life-giving power within us all. The aspirant to this science should aspire to be strong and have good endurance, which will both increase the strain the body can handle as well as give a more vibrant inner power. This does not mean that you should be a world-class weightlifter and runner; quite to the contrary, too much attention to the physical body in this manner can have adverse affects on the higher faculties. In strength, one should simply be fit. In endurance, one should have a healthy stamina. Towards this end one is advised to pick up a healthy hobby requiring physical exertion. This can be biking, hiking, mountain climbing, martial arts, jogging, tennis, any manner of sport, vinyasa yoga (the physical asanas), etc.; anything which stimulates your physical body, encourages overall health, and keeps you active. Just a peaceful walk in the sunlight every now and then! Do something to keep the body frequently vitalized with fresh energy. No amount of meditation, or at least none that the average person can hope to do, will ever replace the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. Many meditators have made the mistake of thinking as much in the past, and have failed in their pursuits because of their negligence of the body.

So there it is, right at the beginning of the aspirant's education - a warning about the importance of good health.

I thought I'd share some more examples in terms of specific practices. First, for pore breathing and the accumulation of the vital force (the latter only being introduced after the Probationer class):

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Mageia: Pore Breathing
The mind must be controlled during this exercise. If you get swept off into random thinking, especially with any emotion in it, the exercise should be stopped for a moment while you regain control of your mind. Otherwise your thoughts and emotions will impress themselves on the energy, which will give more substance to them, and anchor them further into your psyche. This is the reason for such extended focus on personal thought control in the beginning practices.

Quote from:  TDS Preliminary Eduction Lecture - Mageia: The Vital Force
The student is reminded that the vital force is an immensely powerful energy, and in all accumulations it is unwise to push one’s self beyond reason. To that end we recommend that all students begin with seven accumulations twice each day, but not fourteen in one sitting. Once the student can feel the vital force at seven accumulations, and it does not feel straining, then he can progress to ten accumulations, twice daily. After one month of practicing at this amount, he may slowly, at his own discretion, raise the number of accumulations done up to twenty, twice a day. However, no student should raise the accumulations more than two per sitting each week. Be slow and methodic, and remember that this is no race; the wise and prudent achieve the results much faster than the quick and foolhardy.

Again, warnings are present, they are right there for anyone who cares to look. Finally, from the Vision of the Angel lecture:

Quote from:  TDS Level 1 Lecture - Mysteria: The Vision of the Angel
Again, however, many students have never practiced anything as intensive as the Vision of the Angel is. They may be new to meditation, or to practicing visualization. For those students, we have composed two beginning versions of the Vision of the Angel, each of them still highly effective, but serving as a smooth step-up system for practicing the entire technique. You may practice these at your own discretion for as long as you feel is needed to acquire the experience in meditation necessary for the full VOA. You will find that, though simplified, they will still bring amazing results. Students looking for an exact time frame should spend one month on the first version, one month on the second, and then move on to the full version of the technique. Even if you decide to go straight to the practice of the full version be sure that you read the commentaries of the other two versions first, wherein certain important things are explained.

Not exactly a warning, but a caution to proceed at a comfortable pace at least.

So, it is not the case that there was no mention of risk and so on. There was. Also, the issue of impressing things onto the vital force and thereby exacerbating things is addressed. Now the interesting part is that this is not mentioned for work with the astral light (as in the Vision of the Angel) - maybe it's less of an issue? Again, I leave this an open question.


Akenu,

IIHbuddy89: For the whole fucking time we are here talking about practice! Even if astral light was BALANCED by default (which it isn't), it doesn't mean it is self-BALANCING (then there would be no long term issues from improper practice).

Can you explain why you don't believe the astral light is balanced, or self-balancing?

...but what do I expect from school that claims false heritage AND then completely fucks off any wisdom that is already out there in the lineages they claim to be part of.

I've seen you mention the lineage claims often, in fact it seems to be something you keep coming back to. What exactly is your problem with TDS's lineage claims?


Pax_Valeos,

Side-effects of the practices

...

Even if you sat and simply watched the breath every day for two hours daily, or if you went on a meditation retreat that didn't engage in any magical practices, but simply body mindfulness or breath awareness meditation such as seen on many modern retreats, you will see most people describe an awful lot of purification going on. This is simply the case when the mind becomes still, and the energies arise within. Most of the energy, at first, is going to be spend on purifying the energetic channels from poor lifestyle, negative thoughts and a host of other things. If there is illness present in the body that has not manifested yet, the increased vitality from meditation will allow this disease to manifest. Did meditation cause the disease, or did it simply reveal it?

Every Master will tell you that meditation didn't cause the disease, it simply increased the vitality of the practitioner to such a degree that the disease manifested. This is a gift, is it not? With the disease manifested one can now take actual steps to remedy/solve it. Whether that be through Traditional Chinese medicine or it be through Western medicine depending on the issue -- this is up to the individual person to experiment and figure out for oneself.

Thus, the point being, in many cases -- side-effects from the practices are in high likelihood (I can of course not speak of every practice, nor every practictioners case) actually due to certain purifications taking place. I like to believe that the teachers in TDS are well-versed in what they are doing that they actually know how to put things together that are not harmful for students, but simply are very strongly purifying. This isn't just... for fun, or for some psychological benefit. It's for actual spiritual evolution... and anyone that has truly dedicated himself to such a Path knows that there is lots of suffering that must be gone through for enlightenment to be reached. As they say, the Path doesn't just require effort, it requires extra-ordinary effort. Something else to mention here is that those "side-effects" may simply show themselves in your life as manifested karmas. This is natural as one evolves spiritually, certain experiences will occur, certain things will manifest in one's life, and sometimes this can be very, very rough, but it is all for the evolution of your being. 

...

One size fits all

Another point to make of this is that I haven't at even one point seen people on TDS say that there are not certain things that are better for a particular person than other things. As a matter of fact, I dealt with some issues myself and I was dealt with promptly and given additional exercises to deal specifically with that matter. I think in many cases this comes down to the dedication of the student. If you are very dedicated, you will of course look to make your progress as wholesome as possible, and thus, if you feel you lack certain things or there are certain things that are not working well for you, you are inclined to talk to your teacher about it. Sometimes this can be a way of the ego saying: "I don't want to do this hard work, because I know that it will mean a lot of pain and suffering", other times there are legitimate concerns that need to be worked out. In all cases -- it is quite simple: talk to your teacher.

I find it rather funny that it almost seems like people come here and claim that the teachers are not forthcoming or you cannot talk to them. As a matter of fact, from all I have experienced, they are some of the most forthcoming people. If you ask, you'll get an answer. It may not be the answer you would've liked to hear, but in many cases (I'm sure) it will be the answer you need to hear. Another thing about them is that they they won't pat you on your back whenever you do good. They expect dedication and hard work from their students. You shouldn't expect appraisals when you do good, and in many cases, the teacher will avoid telling the student something because the teacher believes that the student has the insight to fully see to it himself. Sometimes the nature of such interactions can be very hard to understand from the limited ego-perspective.

While this may not be the case at the outer school, sometimes the most strangest of behaviours from teachers are often for the benefit of their students. Read about the teachers in any spiritual tradition and you'll see that to be the case. Some examples could be a teacher always being very harsh with a specific student because that student has particular emotional problems that needs to be dealt with. I know there are some spiritual teachers that even ridicule some of their students who have self-esteem issues. From a westerners perspective this looks outrageous, but from people that know that the most spiritual evolution can come from certain amounts of hardship and that in actuality, the teacher is doing this out of the greatest compassion, sometimes that is the case.

Those are excellent points - they have been in the back of my head but I haven't been sure how to express them properly, thank you.


Yet the authors of the lectures. Ramose and Veos, have told students even after "examining" them that they are ok to practice it and yet the student gets damage. As it has been said already the teachers are responsible for guiding and telling the student to do something harmful contradicts their own lecture. And you know emphasize "oral teachings right?"
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 04:19:04 AM by Rodz »

April 12, 2016, 04:15:43 AM
Reply #259

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As an aspirant student in TDS, I'd like to address a couple of points, having been with the school the past 125 days.

  • Side-effects of the practices
  • One size fits all
  • Focus on lifestyle, philosophy, conduct

Ad 1

In regards to this first point, I think it is very important to consider what spiritual practices actually do in the beginning. For those that have been a part of TDS, they know that purification is part of the first many years in Theurgy, especially because of the way most of us Westerners have lived our lives in the past many years. Modern lifestyle doesn't cater to a spiritual life, and so purification is the first step on the Path. The preliminary cycle, which is that which comes after the probationer class (see also the main site: thedivinescience.com) is aimed primarily at purification, especially of the lower vehicles, such as the physical body.

Even if you sat and simply watched the breath every day for two hours daily, or if you went on a meditation retreat that didn't engage in any magical practices, but simply body mindfulness or breath awareness meditation such as seen on many modern retreats, you will see most people describe an awful lot of purification going on. This is simply the case when the mind becomes still, and the energies arise within. Most of the energy, at first, is going to be spend on purifying the energetic channels from poor lifestyle, negative thoughts and a host of other things. If there is illness present in the body that has not manifested yet, the increased vitality from meditation will allow this disease to manifest. Did meditation cause the disease, or did it simply reveal it?

Every Master will tell you that meditation didn't cause the disease, it simply increased the vitality of the practitioner to such a degree that the disease manifested. This is a gift, is it not? With the disease manifested one can now take actual steps to remedy/solve it. Whether that be through Traditional Chinese medicine or it be through Western medicine depending on the issue -- this is up to the individual person to experiment and figure out for oneself.

Thus, the point being, in many cases -- side-effects from the practices are in high likelihood (I can of course not speak of every practice, nor every practictioners case) actually due to certain purifications taking place. I like to believe that the teachers in TDS are well-versed in what they are doing that they actually know how to put things together that are not harmful for students, but simply are very strongly purifying. This isn't just... for fun, or for some psychological benefit. It's for actual spiritual evolution... and anyone that has truly dedicated himself to such a Path knows that there is lots of suffering that must be gone through for enlightenment to be reached. As they say, the Path doesn't just require effort, it requires extra-ordinary effort. Something else to mention here is that those "side-effects" may simply show themselves in your life as manifested karmas. This is natural as one evolves spiritually, certain experiences will occur, certain things will manifest in one's life, and sometimes this can be very, very rough, but it is all for the evolution of your being. 

Just look at examples from the literature. Just read about the story of Milarepa and the suffering he had to go through, and you'll laugh at your own ideas of what suffering entails.

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While this can be argued of many things, I think that it's a bit foolhardy to say that certain practices will not work simply because they are not individually tailored to the person. This is simply not the case. All practices of all spiritual systems are to some degree (some more than others, of course there are faulty ways) are based on metaphysical laws and teachings. Whether you find practices that work for you, however, is another matter. One person may do better in a Zen school, where the focus is ultimately on emptiness and simply sitting and letting things arise on their own. Another person may do much better with a theory heavy school where the things are being taught, and the thoughts are gradually purified along the way allowing for a deeper stillness of the mind. Another person may do much better in a Sufi lineage. This is completely up to the person's individual karma and his or hers soul's inclinations.

Another point to make of this is that I haven't at even one point seen people on TDS say that there are not certain things that are better for a particular person than other things. As a matter of fact, I dealt with some issues myself and I was dealt with promptly and given additional exercises to deal specifically with that matter. I think in many cases this comes down to the dedication of the student. If you are very dedicated, you will of course look to make your progress as wholesome as possible, and thus, if you feel you lack certain things or there are certain things that are not working well for you, you are inclined to talk to your teacher about it. Sometimes this can be a way of the ego saying: "I don't want to do this hard work, because I know that it will mean a lot of pain and suffering", other times there are legitimate concerns that need to be worked out. In all cases -- it is quite simple: talk to your teacher.

I find it rather funny that it almost seems like people come here and claim that the teachers are not forthcoming or you cannot talk to them. As a matter of fact, from all I have experienced, they are some of the most forthcoming people. If you ask, you'll get an answer. It may not be the answer you would've liked to hear, but in many cases (I'm sure) it will be the answer you need to hear. Another thing about them is that they they won't pat you on your back whenever you do good. They expect dedication and hard work from their students. You shouldn't expect appraisals when you do good, and in many cases, the teacher will avoid telling the student something because the teacher believes that the student has the insight to fully see to it himself. Sometimes the nature of such interactions can be very hard to understand from the limited ego-perspective.

While this may not be the case at the outer school, sometimes the most strangest of behaviours from teachers are often for the benefit of their students. Read about the teachers in any spiritual tradition and you'll see that to be the case. Some examples could be a teacher always being very harsh with a specific student because that student has particular emotional problems that needs to be dealt with. I know there are some spiritual teachers that even ridicule some of their students who have self-esteem issues. From a westerners perspective this looks outrageous, but from people that know that the most spiritual evolution can come from certain amounts of hardship and that in actuality, the teacher is doing this out of the greatest compassion, sometimes that is the case.

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I find this is a strange point. The teachers that I've learned from in the school constantly stress how important lifestyle is. Everything from not letting go of your essence through lustful interactions, to observing mindfulness throughout your day, to undertaking as much therapy as you possibly can during these preliminary levels of teaching, is something that is emphasised greatly. As a matter of fact, one of the head teachers told all of us preliminary students that while you can meditate 2 hours per day, if you live mindlessly, the purifications that took place in the 2 hours will quickly wane away. Thus, if one wants true practice, conscious living, purified living, purification on levels of being is absolutely necessary. Without observing mindfulness and directing the mind constantly toward God, how can one hope to achieve self-realization? Ethical conduct is very strongly encouraged in the school, and there are countless lectures on the nature of knowledge and the various virtues.

As a personal note, I will say that the negative claims from here by various students has been unfounded in my experience, and if anything, the teachers have been extremely forthcoming, kind, helpful and the teachings have helped me even in these preliminary stages. Where the Path will take me, God only knows - but I thought I'd share my impressions with the school thus far, and respond to some of the points that have been raised.

God bless everyone,



Before I continue, Pax is a fantastic example of the pro TDS people in the school who genuinely believe all illnesses are just a result of something mental/psychological. I’ve actually spoken to a genuine adept who straight up told me my issue was a physical one and led me on the correct path to fixing it.

By your twisted reasoning pax, physical injuries should never happen to someone who is completely psychologically ok. This is the type of crap I am talking about of adamant refusal to admit that the techniques can do anything wrong, which is insanely absurd, once again, this baseless assumption that the techniques are perfect and therefore can do no wrong. That if the techniques are hurting me, it is my fault.

The other baseless crap is the whole “since I’ve experienced this, that completely invalidates what has happened to you because clearly what happened to me has also happened to you.” Again, there is no logic or reasoning in the slightest at all, that is like saying 2 people who were in a car accident, one just got a bruise and the other one suffered internal bleeding and the one with the bruise goes up to the one who is dying and saying “Well in my experience the car accident just caused a bruise, therefore what is wrong with you is just a bruise.”

The above is a prime example of insanity at this point. Sadly I am quite use to it as this is the rampant theory behind all illnesses in The Divine Science, it’s all in the mind! All diseases are psychological! Give these gentlemen a Lasker Medical Research Award! With this knowledge, they will be able to regenerate limbs with it I am sure! After all, a missing limb is just a result of ego!  :headwall:

Treating a physical issue as a mental issue is the crown of the insanity that goes on in TDS. I have to point out the insanity at this point because this is a prime example of what I am talking about, I've never encountered any system of medicine that treats physical issues as mental/psychological ones. If one has a certain emotion it can affect it a little, but according to TDS if I just eliminate my ego more and more, if I were to someday lose a limb, it will naturally regenerate!  :headwall:


Lack of dedication? Are you serious? I moved across the damn United States to be a local, TDS going the same route once again blaming the student for what was wrong with them. I was an Aspirant Flow Student, and once again they kept on telling me to do damaging things, the most moronic one being standing on the damaged tendon! Over and over again, it's the same things TDS can only resort to, either attacking the person, blaming them, but the one thing you will never see is actually owning up to a mistake.

April 12, 2016, 04:17:33 AM
Reply #260

IIHbuddy89

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Yet the authors of the lectures. Ramose and Veos, have told students even after "examining" them that they are ok to practice it and yet the student gets damage. As it has been said already the teachers are responsible for guiding and telling the student to do something harmful contradicts their own lecture, what they wrote.

So if I tell you to jump in a deep well you will do it? Please do.

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@IIHbuddy89: Even a healthy individual can be harmed in top sports event, you somehow keep omitting that, but regarding any harmful things in Magickal Curriculum, I am listening, surprise me ;-).

Not sure if you read my comments selectively, but i already agreed with you that indeed even a helathy invidual can be harmed in top sports event.

But in this case it is the inviduals fault.

I also adressed the problem with your MC anyway. It's useless without proper foundation and Soul Mirror work. Low quality sorcery at best, and contains no original ideas whatsoever.





April 12, 2016, 04:22:49 AM
Reply #261

Rodz

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Yet the authors of the lectures. Ramose and Veos, have told students even after "examining" them that they are ok to practice it and yet the student gets damage. As it has been said already the teachers are responsible for guiding and telling the student to do something harmful contradicts their own lecture, what they wrote.

So if I tell you to jump in a deep well you will do it? Please do.

Quote
@IIHbuddy89: Even a healthy individual can be harmed in top sports event, you somehow keep omitting that, but regarding any harmful things in Magickal Curriculum, I am listening, surprise me ;-).

Not sure if you read my comments selectively, but i already agreed with you that indeed even a helathy invidual can be harmed in top sports event.

But in this case it is the inviduals fault.

I also adressed the problem with your MC anyway. It's useless without proper foundation and Soul Mirror work. Low quality sorcery at best, and contains no original ideas whatsoever.

Again, TDS has heavy emphases on "oral teachings." A teacher leading someone too hard might be partial the victims fault but it is also the teacher's fault as well.

Two way street. A physical trainer for example who improperly did not see the muscle imbalances of the individual yet told him to push himself, causing injury, the trainer is at fault as well. Sure maybe the client should not have done it but being a teacher is being in a position of trust.

It is not solely the individuals fault.

Within the school as well they emphasize quite a bit how one should "listen to your teacher". For many people as Pax said, the spiritual path is a path you live. For something so important to the student where they "finally found their true teacher." To place the blame, solely on the student is exactly the kind of mentality TDS has to people with negative experiences. That TDS has no fault.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 04:26:00 AM by Rodz »

April 12, 2016, 04:23:53 AM
Reply #262

Akenu

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Yet the authors of the lectures. Ramose and Veos, have told students even after "examining" them that they are ok to practice it and yet the student gets damage. As it has been said already the teachers are responsible for guiding and telling the student to do something harmful contradicts their own lecture, what they wrote.

So if I tell you to jump in a deep well you will do it? Please do.

That's the most stupid answer ever, and in your case, that's saying something.

Quote
Quote
@IIHbuddy89: Even a healthy individual can be harmed in top sports event, you somehow keep omitting that, but regarding any harmful things in Magickal Curriculum, I am listening, surprise me ;-).

Not sure if you read my comments selectively, but i already agreed with you that indeed even a helathy invidual can be harmed in top sports event.

But in this case it is the inviduals fault.

I also adressed the problem with your MC anyway. It's useless without proper foundation and Soul Mirror work. Low quality sorcery at best, and contains no original ideas whatsoever.


IIHbuddy89, frankly, you do not know a jackshit about how soul mirrors work so do you think you would be able to spot a substitute if one smacked you into your face with it? I have already sent the list of exercises BEFORE the elemental work, you might check that one, or you might actually check the whole work, or... nevermind, I cannot really want any kind of reasoning from you, that would be shame on me.

April 12, 2016, 04:33:20 AM
Reply #263

IIHbuddy89

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First of all calm down Ego Champion.

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The above is a prime example of insanity at this point. Sadly I am quite use to it as this is the rampant theory behind all illnesses in The Divine Science, it’s all in the mind! All diseases are psychological! Give these gentlemen a Lasker Medical Research Award! With this knowledge, they will be able to regenerate limbs with it I am sure! After all, a missing limb is just a result of ego!  :headwall:

Ever heard of the principle of attraction as a spiritual law? Everything has it's origin in the mental and higher planes. By the time you get injured physically there were some disturbance in the higher planes already that manifested in this way in your life.

Is it an alien concept for a spiritual person like you right? This is the first time you hear this i guess..

Also you keep talking about insanity, but you definitely behave as an insane person here, blindly accusing TDS people. 

Again if you had health issues already why don't you take responsibility and say you accepted the risk that goes with practising in such conditions?


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That's the most stupid answer ever, and in your case, that's saying something.

Just read back at your responses and you will be surprised haha.

Quote
IIHbuddy89, frankly, you do not know a jackshit about how soul mirrors work so do you think you would be able to spot a substitute if one smacked you into your face with it? I have already sent the list of exercises BEFORE the elemental work, you might check that one, or you might actually check the whole work, or... nevermind, I cannot really want any kind of reasoning from you, that would be shame on me.

Empty accusations. Anyway the excercises you listed are not adressing the issue of Astral Balance at all that needed to even attempt the Elemental Accumulations. (Just read the warnings of Bardon)

Ouch Akenu again.

April 12, 2016, 04:36:59 AM
Reply #264

Akenu

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Ouch IIHbuddy89, ouch again...
Ok, if we stopped speaking like stupid 14 year old boys, then check Two chair exercise (just one of many in MC)

P.S. "Everything has origin in mental and higher planes (astral plane is higher plane). You know, except your claim about the self-balancing astral light all you have said so far actually shows there isn't any self-balancing process at all.

April 12, 2016, 04:50:23 AM
Reply #265

Rodz

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First of all calm down Ego Champion.

Quote
The above is a prime example of insanity at this point. Sadly I am quite use to it as this is the rampant theory behind all illnesses in The Divine Science, it’s all in the mind! All diseases are psychological! Give these gentlemen a Lasker Medical Research Award! With this knowledge, they will be able to regenerate limbs with it I am sure! After all, a missing limb is just a result of ego!  :headwall:

Ever heard of the principle of attraction as a spiritual law? Everything has it's origin in the mental and higher planes. By the time you get injured physically there were some disturbance in the higher planes already that manifested in this way in your life.

Is it an alien concept for a spiritual person like you right? This is the first time you hear this i guess..

Also you keep talking about insanity, but you definitely behave as an insane person here, blindly accusing TDS people. 

Again if you had health issues already why don't you take responsibility and say you accepted the risk that goes with practising in such conditions?


Quote
That's the most stupid answer ever, and in your case, that's saying something.

Just read back at your responses and you will be surprised haha.

Quote
IIHbuddy89, frankly, you do not know a jackshit about how soul mirrors work so do you think you would be able to spot a substitute if one smacked you into your face with it? I have already sent the list of exercises BEFORE the elemental work, you might check that one, or you might actually check the whole work, or... nevermind, I cannot really want any kind of reasoning from you, that would be shame on me.

Empty accusations. Anyway the excercises you listed are not adressing the issue of Astral Balance at all that needed to even attempt the Elemental Accumulations. (Just read the warnings of Bardon)

Ouch Akenu again.

Pretty much IIH right here shows a classic display of any negative experiences being the "ego" of the student or a "mind issue". Even though People's has provided quite a bit of evidence of not only the physical issue but of Ramose and Veos lying about that they don't discuss health issues. You're again, making it seem like Ramose and Veos are at no fault.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 05:17:46 AM by Rodz »

April 12, 2016, 05:22:30 AM
Reply #266

Kemetin

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Kemetin,

Well for starters, as I detailed in my last post, during my time in the school they did absolutely nothing to either ensure that people were sufficiently healthy for the practices, or to warn them that certain pre-existing health conditions were either contraindicated or would require an altered training regime. No risks were mentioned, no prerequisites in terms of lifestyle or physical/mental/spiritual health status were set. Students simply joined and were given the exercises as long as they participated in weekly Q&A sessions (and handed in short essays/quizzes for the first few months - which I rather enjoyed writing, as an aside, I was sad they did away with those).

...

Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall (if I'm wrong in this, please cite an example) - not so much as a "if you have any pre-existing health problems, talk to your Daskaloi before jumping into doing the full VOA" or anything of the kind. To get information on these kind of things, students would have had to go to third party resources, at the exact time that they were being told to rely first and foremost on the information being given to them by the TDS teachers.

I'd be happy to cite several.

The first and most significant one is from the Probationer course. In fact, this used to be in literally the second lecture that a Probationer at TDS would receive. At this point, the practices expected of the student are still very light (thought observation, pore breathing, and soul mirror work), but this warning is already given:

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Ethos: Self-Governance
This tradition holds firm to the idea that the dense body is a phenomenally important tool to be used in our lives; were this not the case, we would be living in an ethereal world where only our finer vehicles would sustain us. Instead we are in this physical world with a physical body, the primary vehicle of our activities on this plane. No spiritual practice or regime of any sorts should neglect the importance of this precious vehicle.

...

Our physical body, dense and gross as it may be compared to the finer aspects of the self, is still the temple within which those finer aspects are housed. Without it, or even if it falls into disrepair, our higher faculties cannot be utilized in this world. Even if there is no serious problem which it has fallen into, the ability to express certain magical forces through the body is directly proportional to the body’s health. A vibrant, healthy, strong individual will have a vibrant, healthy, and strong flow and expression of inner strength. Therefore, it will be seen as the sacred duty of every aspirant to these mysteries to keep the physical temple in good working condition, free of defect or disease beyond what is inborn and propelled by the forces of fate.

The student of these mysteries should invest the time required to learn proper ways to keep a good, healthy body through exercise, diet, hygiene, and all-around correct living. You are encouraged to keep up with these routines for very practical reasons with regard to magic itself. In the magical workings of this tradition, those students who are capable of expressing a vibrant inner power are far more likely to succeed at a good pace than those who are not. Some of the exercises you will be learning exert a constant but subtle strain upon the body, particularly the nervous system, and if you are not in good health and good shape, this strain can become even more detrimental to your health. The practices will also bring out latent difficulties hidden inside you, illnesses which exist on the energetic level of the elements but not yet in the physical body. Some of these will manifest and be dealt with on an emotional level, but some will have to be birthed through the physical processes to which they are analogous. A pre-existing foundation of good health will make these struggles easier, and prevent them from hindering your meditations or daily life for days or weeks.


Physical exercise is practically a panacea for the body, serving to stimulate the currents of vital life-giving power within us all. The aspirant to this science should aspire to be strong and have good endurance, which will both increase the strain the body can handle as well as give a more vibrant inner power. This does not mean that you should be a world-class weightlifter and runner; quite to the contrary, too much attention to the physical body in this manner can have adverse affects on the higher faculties. In strength, one should simply be fit. In endurance, one should have a healthy stamina. Towards this end one is advised to pick up a healthy hobby requiring physical exertion. This can be biking, hiking, mountain climbing, martial arts, jogging, tennis, any manner of sport, vinyasa yoga (the physical asanas), etc.; anything which stimulates your physical body, encourages overall health, and keeps you active. Just a peaceful walk in the sunlight every now and then! Do something to keep the body frequently vitalized with fresh energy. No amount of meditation, or at least none that the average person can hope to do, will ever replace the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. Many meditators have made the mistake of thinking as much in the past, and have failed in their pursuits because of their negligence of the body.

So there it is, right at the beginning of the aspirant's education - a warning about the importance of good health.

I thought I'd share some more examples in terms of specific practices. First, for pore breathing and the accumulation of the vital force (the latter only being introduced after the Probationer class):

Quote from:  TDS Probationer Lecture - Mageia: Pore Breathing
The mind must be controlled during this exercise. If you get swept off into random thinking, especially with any emotion in it, the exercise should be stopped for a moment while you regain control of your mind. Otherwise your thoughts and emotions will impress themselves on the energy, which will give more substance to them, and anchor them further into your psyche. This is the reason for such extended focus on personal thought control in the beginning practices.

Quote from:  TDS Preliminary Eduction Lecture - Mageia: The Vital Force
The student is reminded that the vital force is an immensely powerful energy, and in all accumulations it is unwise to push one’s self beyond reason. To that end we recommend that all students begin with seven accumulations twice each day, but not fourteen in one sitting. Once the student can feel the vital force at seven accumulations, and it does not feel straining, then he can progress to ten accumulations, twice daily. After one month of practicing at this amount, he may slowly, at his own discretion, raise the number of accumulations done up to twenty, twice a day. However, no student should raise the accumulations more than two per sitting each week. Be slow and methodic, and remember that this is no race; the wise and prudent achieve the results much faster than the quick and foolhardy.

Again, warnings are present, they are right there for anyone who cares to look. Finally, from the Vision of the Angel lecture:

Quote from:  TDS Level 1 Lecture - Mysteria: The Vision of the Angel
Again, however, many students have never practiced anything as intensive as the Vision of the Angel is. They may be new to meditation, or to practicing visualization. For those students, we have composed two beginning versions of the Vision of the Angel, each of them still highly effective, but serving as a smooth step-up system for practicing the entire technique. You may practice these at your own discretion for as long as you feel is needed to acquire the experience in meditation necessary for the full VOA. You will find that, though simplified, they will still bring amazing results. Students looking for an exact time frame should spend one month on the first version, one month on the second, and then move on to the full version of the technique. Even if you decide to go straight to the practice of the full version be sure that you read the commentaries of the other two versions first, wherein certain important things are explained.

Not exactly a warning, but a caution to proceed at a comfortable pace at least.

So, it is not the case that there was no mention of risk and so on. There was. Also, the issue of impressing things onto the vital force and thereby exacerbating things is addressed. Now the interesting part is that this is not mentioned for work with the astral light (as in the Vision of the Angel) - maybe it's less of an issue? Again, I leave this an open question.


With respect, I think you're missing the point.

Yes, they did give brief, once off advice on the matter of general health within the early lectures (which most students read once and left off afterwards), but the culture within the school, the manner of teaching and the attitude towards these issues simply didn't do a thing to reinforce them. And there was a vast gap between the way Ramose wrote his lectures and the way he and the other teachers (well really him, Veos, and Teleson, who between them did 95% of the interacting with the wider online student base) spoke and acted, the examples they set and the issues they emphasized.

 Given the importance of the issue and the scale of risk involved, I think they owed their students more than a few brief paragraphs buried in other lectures. At the least, a full lecture laying out the risks that accompany spiritual practice, how to mitigate them, and really laying in the emphasis on the need for a healthy lifestyle, along with the tracking of that lifestyle being a part of the regular communication between teachers and students, should have been in place, imo. After all, if a subject doesn't even merit a full lecture, how much importance are students going to give it?

The reality is, the emphasis and attitudes of the students will mirror the emphasis and attitudes of the teachers. And the emphasis was one of "meditate longer, meditate harder," not of a well rounded lifestyle supporting spiritual endeavor. It felt very much like a gym for meditation at times - energetic weightlifting.

Teachers would check up on (when they bothered to check up at all, more often the student would have to seek out the attention of the teacher) how long students were meditating each day, how many rounds of various exercises they were doing, what phenomena they were experiencing, but  rarely did they raise the subjects of their physical health, their psychological wellbeing, their philosophical and intellectual development (although the last one seems to have improved in the latter days of my membership, as the school became more firmly grounded in Neoplatonic doctrine and philosophical exploration became of greater import).

It simply wasn't anything close to the environment of the traditional spiritual training they claimed to be trying to replicate, and there was no attempt to ensure that students were undergoing well rounded development or had reached certain stages of development before being given certain exercises which really should have been taking place.

 And when things did go wrong, they gave woefully inadequate responses (although this also, I suspect, had a lot to do with the poor structuring of the school), usually starting with "meditate more and it will go away," then "meditate more, but this way, and it will go away" and moving along to "it'll improve with time," although of course no timeframe being given.

To give an example of the kind of things they said regarding these issues, I'll cite a few examples. I'm not doing this to try and badmouth Ramose, although I'm sure I'll be accused of that, or of lying, but I want to give examples of the kind of attitudes that were displayed towards students who were struggling in some way.

The first is one I'll never forget - Ramose responded to a student who said "I can't stop thinking about suicide, what should I do?" with "just don't think about it, because if you commit suicide you'll be stuck in an empty void for all the time you would have otherwise lived out." (obviously I'm paraphrasing a tad, he carried on for a minute or three, but that was the extent of the content of his answer)

That's an absolutely appalling thing to say to someone who is suicidal - it being my early days in the school, I justified it in my mind by telling myself that maybe Ramose contacted that student with something more appropriate and referred him to legitimate mental health treatment, but I find myself doubting it. This was in one of the old Fundraiser Q&A videos (dated late 2012/early 2013 iirc), when they were viewable on the previous website in the downloads section for Fundraiser subscriber.

Another is from when when all of this talk about side effects came up last September/October - Ramose said at one stage in Slack (again paraphrasing, but only slightly) "90% of them wouldn't be having problems if they'd just stop masturbating." 

Without going into the whole issue of sexuality in spirituality (seriously, that's a whole other debate and one I really don't want to drag into this thread, please can we not), on a purely mechanical level, if masturbating was such a severe issue, why wasn't it ever mentioned once in the lectures, or in 2 years of Q&A's? We're talking about a behavior that the vast, vast majority of humans (especially the 20-something men that make up the majority of the student base) indulge in, why would that not be discussed if it could be the cause of 90% of the issues people were experiencing with the meditations? Yes there was talk of moderating sexual activity and controlling lust, but that's a far cry from "masturbating is the most likely cause of side effects from your meditations."

Quote
Yet the authors of the lectures. Ramose and Veos, have told students even after "examining" them that they are ok to practice it and yet the student gets damage. As it has been said already the teachers are responsible for guiding and telling the student to do something harmful contradicts their own lecture, what they wrote.

So if I tell you to jump in a deep well you will do it? Please do.



That kind of attitude doesn't reflect very well on the school, just fyi.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 05:30:40 AM by Kemetin »

April 12, 2016, 05:52:15 AM
Reply #267

IIHbuddy89

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That kind of attitude doesn't reflect very well on the school, just fyi.

I'm not the school. I'm IIHBuddy and i was obviously just trolling.

In fact i cannot take this conversation seriously anymore it's kinda an infinite loop of lies and whining from the haters. Get a bit boring after a while.

The lectures warned everyone, even Bardon warned anyone in the IIH about working with these energies.

People just don't want to take responsibility here.

And this will happen again if you join some other order or group or whatever that deals with these energies (or even do the IIH alone).

You can't blame others your whole life for everything that's happening to you.

I guess in the future it will be much higher priority to warn the newcomers for the possible risks and i agree that it can be an important thing.

What i don't understand why not this is obvious for you people that energetic practises can be risky under some conditions?
 
P.S: anyway just finished a new round of the Preliminary Circle...it feels soooo refreshing and peaceful! I like these "harmful" practises  :biggrin:

April 12, 2016, 07:02:40 AM
Reply #268

Ekstatikos

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@Ekstatikos: My problem is that the school is few years old, it doesn't really inherit any ancient lineage, it doesn't have any document proving it follows a hermetic tradition (or yogic), its courses are not based on ancient wisdom, but on experimentation on its students. First students were told to X, second generation of students was told Y is the right thing and now we have Z if I count correctly. That's something a peer group should do and based on general agreement, not playing freaky with gullible students and each time telling them this is the heritage of ancient lineages. That school is fucking young and being led by 2 young twins that never even visited a real occultist, yet they claim extraordinary hermetic and alchemic knowledge including the philosopher's stone.

They don't set out to provide documents or proof of lineage. The proof is supposedly in the pudding, as it were - and people have had success with their techniques. So an institution cannot improve itself over time? Even then, I think you're misrepresenting how much the practices have changed; besides the addition of a new preliminary practice, everything is pretty much as it was several years ago. What are you basing the claim that they've never visited a 'real occultist' on? Nothing. Not indulging this anymore though - you are welcome to believe what you want about TDS, you weren't there nearly long enough to form an even slightly credible opinion.


Kemetin,

For the most part I agree. My point was not to try to imply that more precautions could/should not have been stated, but simply to counter the idea that no risks were mentioned, which simply isn't true. I don't think the TDS staff were as negligent as some people are claiming - on the other hand I would agree that there is certainly room for improvement in this area - an entire lecture on risks, precautions and contraindications would be a welcome addition indeed. Is this going to happen? I can't say.

Everything in life carries risk, and I think responsibility must be admitted on both ends, for sure. I definitely think TDS can learn from all of this. I think a large part of the problem is that the approach (not the techniques) TDS has is entirely novel; teaching Theurgy online for Western students - this is a really new and unique endeavour, and I think it's not surprising that there are going to be many, many growing pains. TDS is, in that sense, a work in progress, and I think people who don't like the possible risks involved in works in progress simply shouldn't take the risk. Mistakes will be made, and people are going to have to endure some difficulty. If someone does not think that is worth it, that is up to them to decide sooner rather than later.

If someone will counter that on the contrary, TDS has always touted how perfect it is, well, that hasn't been my experience. The TDS staff certainly believe in their system and their methods, and I think they are justified in doing so based on the success they have had. However, I've heard many times from the staff that teaching Western students online in the way they are doing it is a work in progress, and that in many respects, they are in uncharted territory. I don't think Akenu's allegation that this means they are 'experimenting' on their students holds water - at least not in terms of the general roster of techniques and teachings. But, the novel approach is in a sense, an experiment. This doesn't justify people being harmed by it, and TDS will probably do well to pay some more attention to mentioning possible risks and the like. However there is always a degree of personal responsibility involved in any endeavour - placing all the blame on one or the other end is misguided, in my opinion. If we think about it, magic (or at least the level of magic TDS is aiming at) is an incredibly demanding endeavour actually fraught with risks. Maybe TDS would do well to point this out more explicitly, and maybe those who decide to undertake the Great Work should realize that no one ever said it was going to be easy - and ultimately, no one can overcome for you those obstacles and karmas that are decreed by fate. In magic, even in the context of a school, only you are finally responsible for yourself and your wellbeing. Things are going to go wrong, sometimes spectacularly. Instructors should apply due diligence, and TDS can definitely make some improvement in this regard, but even with complete diligence some things will still go wrong - this, in my own opinion, is simply the nature of the true spiritual path. It's a journey as tasking as it is rewarding, and ultimately it is a journey taken alone, obstacles, trials and all. As the Dhammapada teaches: “You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way.”

Quote from:  Kahlil Gibran ~ The Garden of the Prophet
And on an evening a great storm visited the place, and Almustafa and his disciples, the nine, went within and sat about the fire and were silent.
Then one of the disciples said: "I am alone, Master, and the hoofs of the hours beat heavily upon my breast."
And Almustafa rose up and stood in their midst, and he said in a voice like unto the sound of a great wind: "Alone! And what of it? You came alone, and alone shall you pass into the mist.
"Therefore drink your cup alone and in silence. The autumn days have given other lips other cups and filled them with wine bitter and sweet, even as they have filled your cup.
"Drink your cup alone though it taste of your own blood and tears, and praise life for the gift of thirst. For without thirst your heart is but the shore of a barren sea, songless and without a tide.
"Drink your cup alone, and drink it with cheers.
"Raise it high above your head and drink deep to those who drink alone.
"Once I sought the company of men and sat with them at their banquet-tables and drank deep with them; but their wine did not rise to my head, nor did it flow into my bosom. It only descended to my feet. My wisdom was left dry and my heart was locked and sealed. Only my feet were with them in their fog.
"And I sought the company of men no more, nor drank wine with them at their board.
"Therefore I say unto you, though the hoofs of the hours beat heavily upon your bosom, what of it? It is well for you to drink your cup of sorrow alone, and your cup of joy shall you drink alone also."
~ Io Daimon Eriounes Theon ~

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" ~ Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis

To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent, and To Liberate

April 12, 2016, 07:07:13 AM
Reply #269

Kemetin

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I'm not the school. I'm IIHBuddy and i was obviously just trolling.

In fact i cannot take this conversation seriously anymore it's kinda an infinite loop of lies and whining from the haters. Get a bit boring after a while.

You can call it what you want, but it makes the school look bad. I know I was embarrassed by this kind of conduct within and outside the school when I was a member.




You can't blame others your whole life for everything that's happening to you.


Not blaming anyone - don't know why you keep throwing that accusation around. I'm just giving my opinion on the state of the school.

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I guess in the future it will be much higher priority to warn the newcomers for the possible risks and i agree that it can be an important thing.

I very much doubt it.