Author Topic: The Divine Science (TDS) Ramose (Prophecy) and Veos- Open discussion  (Read 40072 times)

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April 11, 2016, 07:12:38 PM
Reply #240

freeDspirit

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April 11, 2016, 07:12:47 PM
Reply #241

Steve

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Well, six pages passed fairly quickly in a couple of days.

I'm going to clarify my position a bit as to why I react so vehemently to this sort of trash talking: I don't like seeing it at Veritas.

Veritas is supposed to be a place for people to learn and develop various forms or methods of metaphysical ability, not for groups of people who don't come here to slander other groups of people who don't practice here anymore. I don't want to see Veritas become a proxy arena for other groups' spats.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

April 11, 2016, 11:33:29 PM
Reply #242

Kemetin

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Regarding the issue of students who've suffered side effects from the TDS training - I think it's impossible for anyone to say whether it's a "minority" of the student base or not, as no kind of measuring or survey has been undertaken (and by what metric? what number or degree of side effects is acceptable?).

However my experience both personally and from speaking to other students online regularly is that it was at least a noticeable and statistically (not to mention personally, to those suffering side effects or worried about them) relevant portion of the school membership. And this is of course taking into account that there is a certain social pressure within the school to play up the positive effects which one has achieved and to downplay negative effects or lack of progress - almost universally, other students I spoke to would admit in private to struggles and symptoms which they would never discuss in public, some of which actually had me quite concerned for their long term wellbeing (and this was only online).

Maybe these issues crop up no more than in any other such organization (again, short of an anonymous survey of all current and past students, there's no way to be sure), but I think that there could be a lot more done to help these people, or prevent them from running into trouble in the first place, but instead the school barely acknowledged the issue (it was effectively not acknowledged at all, that I ever saw, until the drama of last September had so many students openly asking questions that the teachers were forced to discuss it, although even then the response was rather underwhelming, just a few brief mentions of the possibility of nerve strain and excess heat* and some underwhelming and frankly rather inane suggestions for countermeasures).

*Something which seems at odds with their party line that the AL/VF have an inherently balancing effect, but then, I never found self contradiction to be rare in TDS. From personal experience, I think both stances are something of an oversimplification.

At the end of the day, I think the issue of side effects is a very serious one, and that the school could do a lot more to vet it's students to ensure that they are prepared for certain exercises or levels of practice. There was no attempt to ensure that students were healthy, living a balanced lifestyle, to discuss their past history of physical and mental health problems, or anything of the type, either on joining the school, on giving them certain exercises or on having them escalate their training to a certain degree (in fact the degree of personal contact necessary for that kind of thing simply wasn't taking place for most students, as far as I could tell).

In spiritual training a "one size fits all" approach simply doesn't work, but not only is such an approach adopted, the pace which they set (both in the escalation in the training schedule and the escalation in the strength of the exercises used) is much faster than most systems would recommend, and far out of alignment with their lack of focus on establishing a healthy, balanced lifestyle and dealing with energetic blockages and subconscious emotional problems which otherwise emerge and blow up during training (this was another area which received absolutely no discussion).

In short, I think the teachers at TDS have a responsibility, which they fell well short on at the time of my parting from the school, to acknowledge the full extent of the potential risks which their practices hold (whether or not those risks are excessive compared to other similar systems of training - although I suspect this impression has developed at least partially due to their tendency to hand out exercises quickly and without ensuring the student is capable of handling them first), to educate their students in these risks and how they can be minimized extensively as a matter of course, to more intently vet their students for readiness to undertake certain exercises (namely VF work, the Olympic meditations, and their new Preliminary Cycle exercise - especially if accompanied by the Hekatonomai, which in itself induces an extremely powerful energetic and psychological response), to have a greater focus on the kind of preliminary teachings on lifestyle, philosophy and daily conduct which prepare a student for performing these practices safely, and to provide more consistent and personal oversight for students.

The latter I think is particularly important - it doesn't matter how many essays you write if you do nothing to ensure that students are reading them and heading their advice. This is doubly important when many of the students are overseas and don't have in-person contact with teachers or other students.

 As it was, the original structure with the students divided amongst the Daskaloi who ostensibly monitored their progress through online correspondence barely seemed sufficient, I think it demonstrated their ignorance of the weakness of this system that before this drama they planned on expanding the student base by as much as fivefold. Then they remove the Daskaloi entirely and somehow R & V, with Teleson's help, were supposed to manage over 100 students by themselves?

As it is, I believe they fell (as of Dec. 2015, when I left the school - if anything in this regard has changed dramatically, I'd be interested to know) very short of maintaining the proper duty of care that exists when teaching this kind of energetic/internal alchemy training.

On the flip side, I know there were plenty of students who had no problems at all, but if even a tiny minority of students are experiencing suffering, poor health or problems in their spiritual growth due to what a school is teaching, then those doing the teaching have the utmost responsibility to minimize those issues. Instead, TDS seemed to prefer to take a flippant, negligent attitude, to downplay, ignore and cover up these cases, and I think that alone says a lot.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 12:12:09 AM by Kemetin »

April 12, 2016, 01:25:18 AM
Reply #243

IIHbuddy89

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I think it's impossible for anyone to say whether it's a "minority" of the student base or not, as no kind of measuring or survey has been undertaken (and by what metric? what number or degree of side effects is acceptable?).

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However my experience both personally and from speaking to other students online regularly is that it was at least a noticeable and statistically


It was a very small minority actually. Statistically insignificant like it or not. Of course haters like to make a big deal of it and they are very loud and full of anger so it could seem for an outsider who not part of the school and read these forum posts that serious things happened, when actually these are just around 5-10 people (who exaggerate everything) compared to the 200+ students actually enjoying themselves and the practises.

In fact because of the TDS sanctuary people's defaming campaign here on Veritas more people got interested in the school and wanted to enroll the last time than ever before (so basically it was a failed attempt to make the school look dangerous or negative).

These new people also enjoying themselves a lot and the whole school expanding as time goes on.

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In short, I think the teachers at TDS have a responsibility, which they fell well short on at the time of my parting from the school, to acknowledge the full extent of the potential risks which their practices hold

It's ironic that you mention responsibility, because this is maybe the biggest problem with the haters i see.

Joining TDS or any similar organisation is optional

Reading the lectures offered and doing the practises also optional.

One thing that makes a person an ADULT person is taking responsibility for their action.

A wannabe magician or a spiritual person should even take more responsibility not just for their actions but for their thoughts and emotions too (since they create reality).

You anti-TDS folks who complaining not even reached the ADULT phase that's the biggest problem.

You are not taking responsibility for the fact that YOU wanted to join YOU wanted to do these practises YOU wanted to learn what TDS could offer.

Also some of you joined with an already broken nervous system (as People's Champion mentioned) and other injuries, so how can you blame the practises or the teachers?

It is YOUR responsibility to take care of yourself and before you start doing any practises collect as many information about what is the expected result, which forces are applied (Vital Force/LVX/Elements etc.) and how they work, and what they do with your energy system and what are the RISKS if you have health or other issues.

You apparently not done this research, but blindly started doing something. That's how religious people behave not wannabe magicians.

So basically you behave like little children who were forced to do these things even though you knew you have have health issues already and it might be risky.

I agree that the TDS and its teachers also have to take responsibility. My question is when will you guys take your part?


P.S: This not just applies for TDS but for any similar situation when you join a group of people that provide a service for others.




 

April 12, 2016, 01:38:29 AM
Reply #244

Akenu

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See Akenu? No beating about the bush, no posturing and rhetoric, just straight to the point. Incredible.

Beating around the bush, really. Look Ekstatikos, if you ask, I reply, but if you keep asking and omitting my reply, cherry-picking from my reply, then the rat doesn't sit on my fence ;-)

Secondly, your statement that "Olympus meditations are safe because there you work with Astral Light". Astral light is polar so the work with the light must be balanced, else crazy sh*t happens, hence my comment on Ob versus Od you keep omitting.

Thirdly, you keep bashing my Magickal Curriculum for ripping off Initiation Into Hermetics AND for teaching beginners harmful stuff. First of all, any at least partially competent system will have some similarities to IIH, secondly thief yells catch a thief as I am pretty sure TDS curricululm contains similar traits. And finally, elemental exercises are not even remotely as dangerous as working with astral light without proper preparation (and by that I do NOT mean soul mirrors).

Just to point something: Improper element mastery exercise (one I describe in the book), could cause a headache if used improperly. Astral light manipulation? High blood pressure, internal feeling of emptiness, lack of driving force, family problems (personal and objective- accidents, car crashes, bad health, etc), mental disassociation from the reality, health problems, insomnia, digestion problems, etc.

So, tell me, how balancing Astral Light is?

P.S. When I said full communication, I meant it, this is still regarding that one time I wanted to get information from you regarding Olympus meditations ;-).

@IIHbuddy89: You once again omitted the Ob and Od information ;-). You also keep omitting that my Magickal Curriculum also contains the balancing elements, just not the soul mirrors ;-).

When we are in the IIH topic, Bardon also speaks about the polarity of Astral Light, why do you omit that?

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Anyway Akenu the thing you mention about the polarity of astral light is interesting. Could you explain to us how one goes about working with the astral light in the properly 'balanced' fashion? I can't recall seeing it in Bardon (though admittedly it's been a while since last I read IIH) - could you be kind enough to reference a page number for me (a quick pdf search for the term "ob" turned up nothing in any of his 3 major works)?

I'm interested in your answer too Akenu.


IIHbuddy89: As any IIH loving person would know, when Bardon speaks about Light, he speaks about the byproduct of the Fire element. To read something about Astral Light from him, it is simple enough to go to Introduction and look for Astral Body, there is a very first mention of the polarity of Astral Light in the very first sentence of it.

I will save you the trouble and copy/paste the snipper here:

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The Soul or the Astral Body

Through subtler vibrations of the elements, through the electric and the magnetic fluid of their polarity, the man proper, the soul has proceeded from the akasa principle of the finer etheric vibrations. In the same way as the elements are functioning in the material body, the soul or the so-called astral body will behave..

Bardon then also continues about the four-pole magnet and the electromagnetic influence of the elements AND that the astral matrix or the electromagnetic fluid is the connecting link between the body and soul, etc, etc etc. Make sure to read that.

I'm familiar with that passage. What is your point exactly?

It basically states that the astral body is formed by the help of the elements and the fluids (which is quite obvious anyway).

Where is the potential harm?

In the dual nature of both the elements and the electromagnetic fluid, when something is dual it means it's both positive and negative and as someone can do something right and got right effects, someone can also do something wrong and have bad side effects. The work with elements are the work with Astral Light, isn't really about working only with the positive (as it might appear), but actually balancing it on that sharp edge and if nothing else, Astral Light certainly isn't self-balancing as you have claimed.

As for the Ekstatikos claim that the Astral Light is subtle.... Subtle in this context just means it's not physical or that it is even less physical than elements. Now comes the interesting part, and from The Kybalion. Different planes of existence are used only for academic purposes, in reality these planes are so merged together nobody can easily say when one ends and other starts. That Astral Light is connected with something pretty much physical and if you affect the astral plane, you will affect the physical plane, as well, way more directly than with elements, simply because Astral plane as the lower part of Akasha (Bardon) is more than elements.

Ouch, IIHbuddy89, when something has the negative aspect, it doesn't mean it is harmful :-D. Positive and negative in this sense are used just like you would use them in electricity, negative pole doesn't mean evil pole. If you overbalance yourself by taking in only the positive, you will get to the same amount of trouble as if you overbalanced yourself only with the negative, but a practicing magician would know as you say ;-).
....

Akenu are you just going to ignore my question on the astral light:(

Frankly? Yes. Ekstatikos, I am not your teacher but let's just consider for a moment what you really want from me. The whole process of Magick could be summed up as the manipulation of Astral plane. You do stuff on the astral plane and physical plane than catches up, like a magnet, do you really think I will write about 500 words and this all is going to be explained within together with safety practices?

Dear Ekstatikos, read all my books, all my articles, all my experiments and all my projects and you might get a hint you have asked me about.

P.S. If you see gray between black and white, that gray is just the combination of black and white, so where does the black really ends and white begins?

Wow, so you want me to speak about something that actually goes through Magick as the whole and if I refuse, it's a sign of laziness/ignorance/both, but you have no "intention of arguing about cosmology with me". You do understand that this "cosmology" actually does relate to your question, right?

You need to explain your perspective on cosmological metaphysics to me in order to answer my straightforward question? Also, the issue of whether there is a practical problem with the polarity of the astral light is 'something that goes through Magick as the [sic] whole'? How? Don't answer that. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, but then nobody reading this really has any reason to believe your claim that being unaware of some polar concern when working with the astral light is a necessary precaution to doing, for example, meditations that involve its use.

Why? Ekstatikos, I told you few posts back. Do you always read just the first sentence and reply? Astral part always has some physical counter-part, manipulation with astral equals to manipulation with physical reality. So using Astral plane as the playground for stupid experiments based on ideas of twins who never worked is a VERY bad idea.

Wow, so you want me to speak about something that actually goes through Magick as the whole and if I refuse, it's a sign of laziness/ignorance/both, but you have no "intention of arguing about cosmology with me". You do understand that this "cosmology" actually does relate to your question, right?

You need to explain your perspective on cosmological metaphysics to me in order to answer my straightforward question? Also, the issue of whether there is a practical problem with the polarity of the astral light is 'something that goes through Magick as the [sic] whole'? How? Don't answer that. If you don't want to answer the question that's fine, but then nobody reading this really has any reason to believe your claim that being unaware of some polar concern when working with the astral light is a necessary precaution to doing, for example, meditations that involve its use.

Why? Ekstatikos, I told you few posts back. Do you always read just the first sentence and reply? Astral part always has some physical counter-part, manipulation with astral equals to manipulation with physical reality. So using Astral plane as the playground for stupid experiments based on ideas of twins who never worked is a VERY bad idea.

You're completely side-stepping the issue - and I affirmed to you that I understand that the astral can affect the physical, so maybe you should turn that critique of not reading on yourself friend.

IF the astral light CAN have a negative effect on a person THEN 'messing' around with it in the wrong way would be a bad idea. You haven't given the specifics of how you believe the polarity of the astral light implies that it can have some specific malefic effect - or at least, you haven't explained how to avoid that - you've simply said that a person would need to work with both polarities since working with only one would be bad (I imagine you mean it would create imbalance, followed by unwanted effects caused by said imbalance). As a counter to this, which you haven't been able to disprove, both me and IHHBuddy have claimed that since the astral light is electromagnetic (amongst other reasons that I could go into if you would like me to), it has a naturally balancing effect (and you would necessarily always be working with both polarities), which is beneficial, whether on the astral or physical level. I hypothesized that since that is the natural effect of the astral light, only some form of extreme operation would be able to make it do something unbalanced, malefic and against its own nature, and that the chances of this happening with a beginner or even novice practitioner were virtually nil. You didn't counter this point either. Again, this leaves no-one with any reason to believe your claim. If it's too much trouble for you to explain, that's fine, but don't expect people to take the claim seriously then if it can't even stand up to this kind of cursory scrutiny.

So, based on you electromagnetic fluid is self-balancing and since the vital force as electromagnetic, then it is self-balancing. Can you tell me once again why health issues exist?

So, based on you electromagnetic fluid is self-balancing and since the vital force as electromagnetic, then it is self-balancing. Can you tell me once again why health issues exist?

I said the astral light has a balancing effect - I didn't say anything about whether the electromagnetic fluid or the vital force are self-balancing or anything of the sort. We are talking about the astral light specifically - if you want to mention the electromagnetic fluid and the vital force as well then make their relevance to the discussion clear instead of posing rhetorical questions and wasting time. If you're trying to refer to the idea that health issues are caused by imbalance then I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

IIHBuddy to be fair, if the Olympic meditations employ the astral light then they do technically involve the manipulation of astral forces, towards the goal of psychic purification sure, but it's still a manipulation of an astral force. You're right to say that Akenu still hasn't explained the polarity issue though, unless he is doing so incredibly long-windedly by first starting out with explaining the basic principle that the astral can affect the physical. I'm waiting in suspense for the next piece of the puzzle.

... both me and IHHBuddy have claimed that since the astral light is electromagnetic (amongst other reasons that I could go into if you would like me to), it has a naturally balancing effect (and you would necessarily always be working with both polarities), which is beneficial, whether on the astral or physical level....

Don't you see the relation?

April 12, 2016, 01:57:08 AM
Reply #245

Kemetin

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It was a very small minority actually. Statistically insignificant like it or not. Of course haters like to make a big deal of it and they are very loud and full of anger so it could seem for an outsider who not part of the school and read these forum posts that serious things happened, when actually these are just around 5-10 people (who exaggerate everything) compared to the 200+ students actually enjoying themselves and the practises.


How do you know this - have you surveyed all of the current and past students to see how many of them have and haven't experienced negative side effecys?

And more to the point, even if it is only a tiny portion, even if it is only one person, the way the teachers act towards those who suffer as a result of following their training (and the lack of effort which could be made to prevent such suffering) is telling (as is the way the other students act).

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In fact because of the TDS sanctuary people's defaming campaign here on Veritas more people got interested in the school and wanted to enroll the last time than ever before (so basically it was a failed attempt to make the school look dangerous or negative).

These new people also enjoying themselves a lot and the whole school expanding as time goes on.

I'm not affiliated with TDS sanctuary, and I have actually critiqued their content and methods fairly consistently since they began their activity, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.


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It's ironic that you mention responsibility, because this is maybe the biggest problem with the haters i see.

Joining TDS or any similar organisation is optional

Reading the lectures offered and doing the practises also optional.

One thing that makes a person an ADULT person is taking responsibility for their action.

A wannabe magician or a spiritual person should even take more responsibility not just for their actions but for their thoughts and emotions too (since they create reality).

Yes, obviously students have to take responsibility for their lives, I never said they didn't, but that street runs both ways. Part of the role of a teacher of any kind, but especially imo a spiritual teacher, is monitoring their students progress and doing what they can to optimize their outcome.

 Simply throwing knowledge and practices at people and saying "do what you want with it" is irresponsible and dangerous. Doing so while omitting vital details about the potential negative effects of the knowledge and practices in question is even more so.

People can only take responsibility for their lives within the context of their own worldview and knowledge. If a school is simultaneously saying "our teachers are authorities on spiritual matters, follow their advice and their training regime if you want to advance spiritually," and then giving improper or incomplete advice, or dangerous training regimes, then they can hardly sit there and throw the blame at their students for experiences negative results after doing what they told them to do (or not doing what they didn't tell them to do, in many cases).

If you put something into someone's life, then imo you hold a certain amount of culpability for the fruit that it bears them.


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You anti-TDS folks who complaining not even reached the ADULT phase that's the biggest problem.

2 days ago I was pro-TDS, now I'm anti-TDS. Interesting how that works ;) Surely there's room for a bit of nuance and less tribalism in this debate?


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You are not taking responsibility for the fact that YOU wanted to join YOU wanted to do these practises YOU wanted to learn what TDS could offer.

Sure I do - but I can't undo that decision, and I'm not sure I'd want to.

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Also some of you joined with an already broken nervous system (as People's Champion mentioned) and other injuries, so how can you blame the practises or the teachers?

Well for starters, as I detailed in my last post, during my time in the school they did absolutely nothing to either ensure that people were sufficiently healthy for the practices, or to warn them that certain pre-existing health conditions were either contraindicated or would require an altered training regime. No risks were mentioned, no prerequisites in terms of lifestyle or physical/mental/spiritual health status were set. Students simply joined and were given the exercises as long as they participated in weekly Q&A sessions (and handed in short essays/quizzes for the first few months - which I rather enjoyed writing, as an aside, I was sad they did away with those).


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It is YOUR responsibility to take care of yourself and before you start doing any practises collect as many information about what is the expected result, which forces are applied (Vital Force/LVX/Elements etc.) and how they work, and what they do with your energy system and what are the RISKS if you have health or other issues.

Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall (if I'm wrong in this, please cite an example) - not so much as a "if you have any pre-existing health problems, talk to your Daskaloi before jumping into doing the full VOA" or anything of the kind. To get information on these kind of things, students would have had to go to third party resources, at the exact time that they were being told to rely first and foremost on the information being given to them by the TDS teachers.

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You apparently not done this research, but blindly started doing something. That's how religious people behave not wannabe magicians.

You know what they say about assumptions...

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I agree that the TDS and its teachers also have to take responsibility.

But they don't.

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My question is when will you guys take your part?


Who is "you guys" exactly?

« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 02:02:09 AM by Kemetin »

April 12, 2016, 02:10:34 AM
Reply #246

IIHbuddy89

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Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall

Seriously dude....in Theurgy people working with f*cking MAGICKAL energies that can heal someone or completly ruin his life.

Do you realize that a powerful magician could actually kill someone with the Vital Force (ironic how it's called "vital" right?).

Impregnating it with the ideation of death and with powerful intention such a being could even kill you remotely while you asleep.

Point is this is not a computer game, these are very real and powerful and even dangerous energies. You can't blame others if you cannot handle them properly.

It's like learning how to use a weapon. It's very possible you will get injured too while learning. That's part of the learning process.

And as i said. No such thing as "there is no hint".

YOU have to ask questions about the risks wheter they are mentioned or not before you start any practise (even if you plan to do these practises for years).

 


April 12, 2016, 02:12:13 AM
Reply #247

Akenu

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Except as I said, there was absolutely no hint anywhere of any kind of risk that I recall

Seriously dude....in Theurgy people working with f*cking MAGICKAL energies that can heal someone or completly ruin his life.

Do you realize that a powerful magician could actually kill someone with the Vital Force (ironic how it's called "vital" right?).

Impregnating it with the ideation of death and with powerful intention such a being could even kill you remotely while you asleep.

Point is this is not a computer game, these are very real and powerful and even dangerous energies. You can't blame others if you cannot handle them properly.

It's like learning how to use a weapon. It's very possible you will get injured too while learning. That's part of the learning process.

And as i said. No such thing as "there is no hint".

YOU have to ask questions about the risks wheter they are mentioned or not before you start any practise (even if you plan to do these practises for years).

That sounds very balancing, IIHbuddy89 ;-)

April 12, 2016, 02:29:29 AM
Reply #248

IIHbuddy89

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Yes it is!

Both the LVX and the Vital Force are naturally balanced energies.

If you add your intention to them however you can alter these energies.

Since we use these energies in TDS with the intention of purification, these practises are perfectly safe : )

Of course if you have health issues it's your responsibility to mention to your teacher.

April 12, 2016, 02:33:48 AM
Reply #249

Akenu

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Yes it is!

Both the LVX and the Vital Force are naturally balanced energies.

If you add your intention to them however you can alter these energies.

Since we use these energies in TDS with the intention of purification, these practises are perfectly safe : )

Of course if you have health issues it's your responsibility to mention to your teacher.

So they are perfectly safe... Except when you mix the intention... or you have some health problems to begin with... or you are simply a beginner and you do what you are told because you don't know any better.

IIHbuddy89, I am really beginning to consider that the 89 on the end of your nickname is not the year you were born in.

April 12, 2016, 02:49:20 AM
Reply #250

IIHbuddy89

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You already proved you have no idea what you are talking about so i cannot take you seriously sorry.  :wink:

I know for armchair magicians like you it's a new information that these forces can be both useful or harmful according how you use them.

Also it was mentioned many times that accumulation of such energies put a strain in your nervous system (whether you practise simply the IIH, or do TDS practises, or join any other magickal group this happens when you accumulate these energies).

If you know you have health issues why you do such practises or why not take responsibility when taking the risk?

Also if you have no health issues or other issues and you are perfectly healthy how could you get any harm if you use these forces with positive intentions?








April 12, 2016, 03:06:32 AM
Reply #251

Akenu

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You already proved you have no idea what you are talking about so i cannot take you seriously sorry.  :wink:

I know for armchair magicians like you it's a new information that these forces can be both useful or harmful according how you use them.

Also it was mentioned many times that accumulation of such energies put a strain in your nervous system (whether you practise simply the IIH, or do TDS practises, or join any other magickal group this happens when you accumulate these energies).

If you know you have health issues why you do such practises or why not take responsibility when taking the risk?

Also if you have no health issues or other issues and you are perfectly healthy how could you get any harm if you use these forces with positive intentions?


Pardon me, but on one side you claim something being self-balancing and therefore harmless, then you actually agree with me that there are possible issues if not used properly (exact point I made a couple of posts ago)

And, if you have health issues BUT you do not know about any possible risks, are you really the one responsible for fucking you up?
And, if you are perfectly healthy, you can also get some harm from improper practice, same as a completely healthy individual will get hurt in top sports events while being misguided (hell, sometimes even top sportsman with top notch health will get hurt), once you strain your body in a certain way, harm can happen.

April 12, 2016, 03:22:35 AM
Reply #252

IIHbuddy89

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Pardon me, but on one side you claim something being self-balancing and therefore harmless, then you actually agree with me that there are possible issues if not used properly (exact point I made a couple of posts ago)

You not really get the concept of something naturally balancing (without impregnating with intention) and at the same time you can achieve various other results when impregnating it with your intention.

Is it really a hard concept to grasp for you?

Think about like two states. One is a default state and other is an altered state by human intention.

But this is not even a TDS/theurgy specific question actually.

This applies to ANY tool you can imagine. I can use a knife to cut butter or to kill you.

Depends how the person use this forces, that's actually common sense.

My question is why you blame other people if you not learned how to use the given tool properly?


Quote
And, if you have health issues BUT you do not know about any possible risks, are you really the one responsible for fucking you up?

If you don't know something and you are not sure, you should ask whether there are risks or not. Nobody will holding your hand, this is not kindergarten anymore sorry.

Same applies to if you were go to learn martial arts or other things.


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And, if you are perfectly healthy, you can also get some harm from improper practice, same as a completely healthy individual will get hurt in top sports events while being misguided (hell, sometimes even top sportsman with top notch health will get hurt), once you strain your body in a certain way, harm can happen.

Actually i already mentioned that point and i agree.

But in this case if it happened because of your own fault, why are you blame others again? :D

Makes no sense.

April 12, 2016, 03:30:02 AM
Reply #253

Akenu

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IIHbuddy89: For the whole fucking time we are here talking about practice! Even if astral light was BALANCED by default (which it isn't), it doesn't mean it is self-BALANCING (then there would be no long term issues from improper practice).

And before "you mentioned that point" I have mentioned it a couple of times and you DISAGREED.

Now, to your "take your responsibility" thing. If someone could do that, was aware of risks and could react based on subtle signs, he wouldn't be in TDS to begin with as he would happily go with solitary practice. TDS and teachers should be there to help and guide individuals, but what do I expect from school that claims false heritage AND then completely fucks off any wisdom that is already out there in the lineages they claim to be part of.

Sorry, I have to say it again, TDS is a complete joke and a ripoff, even if lectures were completely for free, it would still be too expensive.

April 12, 2016, 03:37:30 AM
Reply #254

Pax_Valeos

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As an aspirant student in TDS, I'd like to address a couple of points, having been with the school the past 125 days.

  • Side-effects of the practices
  • One size fits all
  • Focus on lifestyle, philosophy, conduct

Ad 1

In regards to this first point, I think it is very important to consider what spiritual practices actually do in the beginning. For those that have been a part of TDS, they know that purification is part of the first many years in Theurgy, especially because of the way most of us Westerners have lived our lives in the past many years. Modern lifestyle doesn't cater to a spiritual life, and so purification is the first step on the Path. The preliminary cycle, which is that which comes after the probationer class (see also the main site: thedivinescience.com) is aimed primarily at purification, especially of the lower vehicles, such as the physical body.

Even if you sat and simply watched the breath every day for two hours daily, or if you went on a meditation retreat that didn't engage in any magical practices, but simply body mindfulness or breath awareness meditation such as seen on many modern retreats, you will see most people describe an awful lot of purification going on. This is simply the case when the mind becomes still, and the energies arise within. Most of the energy, at first, is going to be spend on purifying the energetic channels from poor lifestyle, negative thoughts and a host of other things. If there is illness present in the body that has not manifested yet, the increased vitality from meditation will allow this disease to manifest. Did meditation cause the disease, or did it simply reveal it?

Every Master will tell you that meditation didn't cause the disease, it simply increased the vitality of the practitioner to such a degree that the disease manifested. This is a gift, is it not? With the disease manifested one can now take actual steps to remedy/solve it. Whether that be through Traditional Chinese medicine or it be through Western medicine depending on the issue -- this is up to the individual person to experiment and figure out for oneself.

Thus, the point being, in many cases -- side-effects from the practices are in high likelihood (I can of course not speak of every practice, nor every practictioners case) actually due to certain purifications taking place. I like to believe that the teachers in TDS are well-versed in what they are doing that they actually know how to put things together that are not harmful for students, but simply are very strongly purifying. This isn't just... for fun, or for some psychological benefit. It's for actual spiritual evolution... and anyone that has truly dedicated himself to such a Path knows that there is lots of suffering that must be gone through for enlightenment to be reached. As they say, the Path doesn't just require effort, it requires extra-ordinary effort. Something else to mention here is that those "side-effects" may simply show themselves in your life as manifested karmas. This is natural as one evolves spiritually, certain experiences will occur, certain things will manifest in one's life, and sometimes this can be very, very rough, but it is all for the evolution of your being. 

Just look at examples from the literature. Just read about the story of Milarepa and the suffering he had to go through, and you'll laugh at your own ideas of what suffering entails.

Ad 2

While this can be argued of many things, I think that it's a bit foolhardy to say that certain practices will not work simply because they are not individually tailored to the person. This is simply not the case. All practices of all spiritual systems are to some degree (some more than others, of course there are faulty ways) are based on metaphysical laws and teachings. Whether you find practices that work for you, however, is another matter. One person may do better in a Zen school, where the focus is ultimately on emptiness and simply sitting and letting things arise on their own. Another person may do much better with a theory heavy school where the things are being taught, and the thoughts are gradually purified along the way allowing for a deeper stillness of the mind. Another person may do much better in a Sufi lineage. This is completely up to the person's individual karma and his or hers soul's inclinations.

Another point to make of this is that I haven't at even one point seen people on TDS say that there are not certain things that are better for a particular person than other things. As a matter of fact, I dealt with some issues myself and I was dealt with promptly and given additional exercises to deal specifically with that matter. I think in many cases this comes down to the dedication of the student. If you are very dedicated, you will of course look to make your progress as wholesome as possible, and thus, if you feel you lack certain things or there are certain things that are not working well for you, you are inclined to talk to your teacher about it. Sometimes this can be a way of the ego saying: "I don't want to do this hard work, because I know that it will mean a lot of pain and suffering", other times there are legitimate concerns that need to be worked out. In all cases -- it is quite simple: talk to your teacher.

I find it rather funny that it almost seems like people come here and claim that the teachers are not forthcoming or you cannot talk to them. As a matter of fact, from all I have experienced, they are some of the most forthcoming people. If you ask, you'll get an answer. It may not be the answer you would've liked to hear, but in many cases (I'm sure) it will be the answer you need to hear. Another thing about them is that they they won't pat you on your back whenever you do good. They expect dedication and hard work from their students. You shouldn't expect appraisals when you do good, and in many cases, the teacher will avoid telling the student something because the teacher believes that the student has the insight to fully see to it himself. Sometimes the nature of such interactions can be very hard to understand from the limited ego-perspective.

While this may not be the case at the outer school, sometimes the most strangest of behaviours from teachers are often for the benefit of their students. Read about the teachers in any spiritual tradition and you'll see that to be the case. Some examples could be a teacher always being very harsh with a specific student because that student has particular emotional problems that needs to be dealt with. I know there are some spiritual teachers that even ridicule some of their students who have self-esteem issues. From a westerners perspective this looks outrageous, but from people that know that the most spiritual evolution can come from certain amounts of hardship and that in actuality, the teacher is doing this out of the greatest compassion, sometimes that is the case.

Ad 3

I find this is a strange point. The teachers that I've learned from in the school constantly stress how important lifestyle is. Everything from not letting go of your essence through lustful interactions, to observing mindfulness throughout your day, to undertaking as much therapy as you possibly can during these preliminary levels of teaching, is something that is emphasised greatly. As a matter of fact, one of the head teachers told all of us preliminary students that while you can meditate 2 hours per day, if you live mindlessly, the purifications that took place in the 2 hours will quickly wane away. Thus, if one wants true practice, conscious living, purified living, purification on levels of being is absolutely necessary. Without observing mindfulness and directing the mind constantly toward God, how can one hope to achieve self-realization? Ethical conduct is very strongly encouraged in the school, and there are countless lectures on the nature of knowledge and the various virtues.

As a personal note, I will say that the negative claims from here by various students has been unfounded in my experience, and if anything, the teachers have been extremely forthcoming, kind, helpful and the teachings have helped me even in these preliminary stages. Where the Path will take me, God only knows - but I thought I'd share my impressions with the school thus far, and respond to some of the points that have been raised.

God bless everyone,