Author Topic: About atheism  (Read 6375 times)

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January 16, 2015, 01:34:36 PM
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Akenu

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What is an atheism?
Based on the definition atheism is a belief that there is no god, but generally this belief states there is nothing paranormal, everything that exists can be observed, measured and reproduced. [1]

Pros of atheism
Atheism gives a very good and solid logical foundation based on research and experimentation. It also states how to use a cold logic where most people would let themselves be deceived by the heart.

Cons of atheism
Atheism, as any other belief, states itself as the ultimate truth (or at least through the mouths of many dogmatic atheists found on the internet, this of course doesn't apply to everyone), so there is a great factor of ridiculing other beliefs.

Proof based thinking
An average internet atheist will tell you that there is no God as there is no proof for one and if we want to prove there is something more, we have to provide evidence for it.  Atheism didn't provide any evidence that there is nothing outside this world, but they are right the weight of evidence lies on those who claim something exists, not the opposite. The sad part is that our evidence is either ridiculed or stolen.

To give you an example outside the common "scientists showing data regarding parapsychology are discredited", let's take a look at placebo, as placebo comes from our practices. This effect was firstly ridiculed as a total nonsense, just later when people found out that placebo really works, they officially adopted it, then there started claiming our practices are just a placebo.

There is no thing as "just a placebo" The placebo is a very strong effect [4] and while many of our practices rely on it, we can still be proud for using it effectively (and for discovering it first). It shows how strong the power of the mind over matter is. It also shows how many vaccines were "just a placebo" in the past. Vaccination nowadays is used in comparison with placebo to assure there are some real effects just beyond the placebo effect. [4]

"Gold"-en opportunity
Gold is a very amazing metal, every alchemist will agree with me. In the "ancient" past this metal was used by us for curing many illnesses (usually taken per-orally). Funnily enough, science has found this method is quite working, they just avoid it for side effects of the metal poisoning, but what is the most interesting part?

Science found that golden mixture is more effective via an injection into muscles instead of receiving it by the standard way. The joke is no one knows why this is working, no one exactly knows what could a gold do to cure anything. [2]

Gold has an amazing charge that cannot be measured by mundane means, and Magicians using gold for healing, usually charge the gold even more, beyond its standard property, that's why the gold was always so respected among healers, even when taken in the less effective way (by swallowing).

The tea way
Many of us can attest for great benefits when it comes to drinking a green tea. We all know that green tea is healthy and by drinking it our sicknesses have much smoother progression and we feel healthy much sooner. Unfortunately once again we do not know what a green tea actually does or how,
simply because it doesn't contain any active substance that would be responsible for strenghtening the immunity system, there is literally no curing factor when it comes to the physical contents of the green tea, yet we all are pretty sure it works. [3]

Power of new belief
Of course the rise of atheism created a new worshiping on its own, science. Whatever is science is true and whatever is outside science is false. This does indeed have some positive effects, for example you take your painkillers and your headache is gone in matter of minutes (sometimes even seconds), even when the drug itself will start having any real effect in about 20 to 30 minutes. [4] But you know what? That's great. It's great that a modern medicine is so trusted that placebo effect actively helps with the healing process, we as occultists love it :).

Problem arises when we use placebo (or anything that could be labeled as one). For example when a former pope blessed a nun with Parkinson that got magically cured [6] (these are called miracles in the church). Many people reacted to this as it was "just a placebo". Well, it's true that Parkinson's disease is psychosomatic in its base so it is very effectively cured with placebo, but whether this miracle was caused by placebo or not, it prove that we are more effective at it. We do not need to give you fake pills (made of sugar) or give you drugs that will start working after the actual effect already took place. We can use placebo with greater effects just with the use of words, gestures, and a good deal of faith (in anything one would or could believe).

Dark side of science
Magick and generally occultism has a very bad credit due to the great amount of charlatans hiding in our communities, based on them we all are judged. The thing is that science has charlatans, too and there are as many of them as in occultism [5]. If you don't believe me, think about how much money goes into research regarding green energy, recycling, bendable phones... despite the fact that there are other underfunded fields of science that would put the money into greater use, than a paper plate that can fall apart in the environment and a plant will grow out of it. Now I am not speaking about parapsychology, seriously people, let occult alone, it is happy where it is. Money should focus more on the research of our universe and new ways of producing energy without current mainstream dogmatic beliefs about "green", using mercury for solar panels and "green" light-bulbs is not green at all.

Many people believe, that science turned into pseudo-science with the arrival of Drake's equation [5].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Medicine
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_tea
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
[5] http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/07/09/aliens-cause-global-warming-a-caltech-lecture-by-michael-crichton/
[6] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/miracle-nun-john-paul-healed-parkinson-disease-article-1.1769668

January 16, 2015, 02:54:35 PM
Reply #1

Enchia

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I will respond based on a few things that really caught my attention.

Quote
What is an atheism?
Based on the definition atheism is a belief that there is no god, but generally this belief states there is nothing paranormal, everything that exists can be observed, measured and reproduced. [1]

If you use sources be careful how you paraphrase them because your source states something different:

Quote
With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts, such as those of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Taoism.

Your source has a much broader definition of atheism then you claim it does. Your source states that atheists reject the idea of a deity and also may reject other spiritual and supernatural concepts but that is not a neccesarity.

Quote
Pros of atheism
Atheism gives a very good and solid logical foundation based on research and experimentation. It also states how to use a cold logic where most people would let themselves be deceived by the heart.

This sounds more like scepticism then atheism. It happens a lot that people conflate these things. Somebody can use 'cold logic' without being an atheist. There are plenty of scientist out there who are both celebrated scientists and also profess the believe in a deity.

Quote
Cons of atheism
Atheism, as any other belief, states itself as the ultimate truth (or at least through the mouths of many dogmatic atheists found on the internet, this of course doesn't apply to everyone), so there is a great factor of ridiculing other beliefs

Because of your flawed definition and not using your source properly you make a strawman fallacy, that is a fallacy where you base your argument on false assumptions. Your source states that:

Quote
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist

Especially the last definition is something entirely different from what you said.

Quote
An average internet atheist will tell you that there is no God as there is no proof for one and if we want to prove there is something more, we have to provide evidence for it.  Atheism didn't provide any evidence that there is nothing outside this world, but they are right the weight of evidence lies on those who claim something exists, not the opposite.

That is correct.

Then you lost me for a while...

Then you said this:

Quote
Of course the rise of atheism created a new worshiping on its own, science.

If you are worshiping science then you are doing it wrong.

Quote
Whatever is science is true and whatever is outside science is false

You think you need to be more specific with the term 'science' also generally speaking what is outside 'science' does not equates with being false but rather with 'unknown' or 'unknowable'.

Quote
Magick and generally occultism has a very bad credit due to the great amount of charlatans hiding in our communities, based on them we all are judged. The thing is that science has charlatans, too and there are as many of them as in occultism

I don't know about the numbers but yes every field of endeavour has its frauds and nobody is denying that. The research community is very much aware of that and that is why they promote scepticism towards scientific research and also invest a lot of time in peer review. Something that does not happen a lot in the more esoteric community.


Also be a bit more careful with picking the sources because wikipedia for example is not really considered to be a very credible source.

January 16, 2015, 05:26:52 PM
Reply #2

ImmortalTimothy

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This is an interesting article; however could you please get better sources. All of your sources are from Wikipedia (except the last two), which is an okay source to use but I think a few more from more diverse sites would do a lot of good for this article.


Also, I kinda feel that this
Quote
... generally this belief states there is nothing paranormal, everything that exists can be observed, measured and reproduced.
is an over-generalization of atheist. I am an spiritualistic atheist. I do not believe in a supreme god, but I acknowledge the existence of man-created deities (Divine Constructs). I agree with a lot of what I have learned in science, however I have a strong belief in magic (particularity in psionics, elementalism, and alchemy).
I am my own God

January 16, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
Reply #3

Mind_Bender

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Atheism denotes a perception that no deity exists. Other spirirual, magical, or otherwise esoteric belief is up to their experience. For example, there doesn't need to be a deity for there to be an afterlife or existence in magic. Science and atheism are often linked, but they are different realms in and of themselves. One (atheism) understands an absolute where no deity exists and one (science) is basically a form of scepticism whose goal is to conclude the truth of this or that. Science is not about absolutes but discovery, atheism is about an absolute of non-belief or anti-theism.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

January 17, 2015, 02:16:04 PM
Reply #4

ImmortalTimothy

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So your actually agnostic. That's an easier way to say your a spiritual atheist.

Oh, never thought about that. Okay cool, thanks.
I am my own God

January 27, 2015, 11:23:54 AM
Reply #5

Akenu

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So, I guess I have waited for the feedback long enough.
First thank you for correcting me on the sources, but if you read the whole thing, you would also find a definition I was talking about. It is also true that e.g. buddhism is atheistic, but once again, that wasn't the target of this article.

Now, the worship of science really does happen in the scale given in the article, the placebo effect of the pain killers speaks for itself.

Yes, most of the referenced sources are from Wikipedia, that is enough for an average internet troll or a militant atheist.

And last but not least, I think many people have wanted to know what's the goal of the article. This article is to show that atheism is just a belief system, just like monotheism or polytheism, many people consider atheism as the true or objective way (pretty similar to Christianity or literally any religion before). Atheism has its own pros and consjust like any other belief.

February 01, 2015, 12:29:38 AM
Reply #6

Akenu

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@Rayn: And as a former atheist, I find this article accurate and well explained. Plus Rayn, if I were to judge academic critique, it would be very loooong sentences that would be edited later.

Now all joking aside, the article clearly doesn't speak about buddhists and if you skim through the wiki article, you will find this definition:
Quote
With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts, such as those of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Taoism.[38]

Hah, that doesn't include the "lack of evidence" problem, well, another part says this:
Quote
Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any supernatural deity include the lack of empirical evidence;

So, now I do believe it is quite clear what type of atheist is defined in this article. For the rest, what I personally find very interesting, was kobok's warning that the wikipedia article is incorrect and green tea does have active substances. The joke is that the contents of that article were based on some study published by some scientific unit (in this case, Cancer Research UK).

What is another joke is that kobok is actually correct, green tea really does contain active substances and even links (external links and references on the wiki page) prove that.

P.S. if you still wonder what type of atheism this article is about, it is the militant type of atheism combined with scientism, simply those idiots you can find in youtube coments ;-).

February 04, 2015, 07:13:19 PM
Reply #7

Steve

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Atheism is A-Theism, where the A- prefix in Greek (which is where the term come from) means more-or-less "Not"; in other words, Not Theism.

Theism is belief in, usually to the point of the worshiping of, God(s).

Thus, Atheism is simply anything that is not the worshiping or belief in God(s). That is all.

Anything else that is also added, such as spite against religion or hailing of science, has nothing to do with atheism; such things are other things that individuals are. When people mix atheism with those other things together in a confusing manner, they make it seem like atheism is a bunch of stuff that it is actually not.

Atheists can and do believe in or deny paranormal/mystical things. Atheists can and do reject or embrace science. Atheists can and do antagonize the shit out of other people or altruistically help the shit out of other people. But none of these extra things are because of atheism; it just so happens that atheists can be multifaceted people rather than flat characters. In other words, reread each of those statements and mentally add the word "Some" in front of "Atheists" :)

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

February 05, 2015, 02:25:26 AM
Reply #8

Akenu

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@Steve: I think we have already had a debate regarding "the meaning changes over time" or even that "one definition can have multiple meanings". So maybe instead of arguing here about philosophy, you might check the other article to find out whether they are "good enough".

February 09, 2015, 03:18:23 PM
Reply #9

Steve

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The meaning changes over time only if we let it, and I, for one, won't let it :) A-Theism simply means not theism.

Anything else regarding linking of concepts is a series of errors dating back at least to the Renaissance, where some people began associating various different things together as though they were inherently linked when they weren't. A few examples:

Science and Rationalism are not inherently together. Science can often benefit from Rationalism, but Rationalism must step aside when facts are discovered if those facts contradict held theories.

Science and anti-religion are not inherently together. The Scientific world is heavily manned by religious people, and actually outnumber atheists, by a wide margin if I recall the statistics correctly.

Science and atheism are not inherently together. In the same vein as the previous, theists make up a large portion of that number of religious scientists.

Atheism and bigotry and not inherently together. Anybody from any group in the world can be bigoted, and there are quite a lot of people who are atheists who are not bigoted at all.
Atheism and skepticism are not inherently together. There are quite a number of religions or belief systems that are atheist, and religious people can be skeptics as well.

Atheism and "proof based thinking" are not inherently together. There are a lot of atheists out there who only believe what they've been told to believe, as that is the simple state of the majority of human beings; they merely parrot what they've been taught, and some of them simply happen to have been taught atheism rather than theism.

Materialism and Science are not inherently together. Materialism is an Ideology that first declares certain premises and then later tries to hold those premises up with scientific study. But Science has lately proven some of those premises false.

Materialism and atheism are not inherently together. Buddhists are atheist, but they are definitively not materialists.

Atheism and anti-religion are not inherently together. Atheists can be just as religious as theists, and though it is popular for anti-religious people to also be atheists (kind of by default), this is a case of all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.

Actually, there are a lot of cases of "all squares are rectangles, but only some rectangles are squares" going on with many of the above associations.


In the end, I'll agree with this wholeheartedly:
Quote from: Akenu
atheism is just a belief system, just like monotheism or polytheism, many people consider atheism as the true or objective way (pretty similar to Christianity or literally any religion before).
But the pros and cons you listed are not always inherent to atheism itself, as some have to do with concepts that have been attached to atheism over the past few hundred years. This is not your personal failing, however, as many atheists/scientists/bigots over the past few hundred years have been purposefully obscuring the distinctions in attempts at abolishing religion by claiming it is against everything that science/rationalism/materialism is about, to the point where you and others can actually point to the incorrect claims by these people and state them as though they were true and factual because they have been oft-repeated as such.

~Steve
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:23:46 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

February 11, 2015, 12:08:03 AM
Reply #10

Akenu

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@Steve: Ok, I have to admit that this post of yours is a pure gold, karma+ for that.