Author Topic: The Path to Spiritual Enlightenment in 4 Steps  (Read 6260 times)

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December 26, 2014, 09:51:10 AM
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Redd

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If you were to die today, do you know for sure that you will go to Heaven?  I am going to teach you from the bible how you can know 100% for sure that when you die you will go to Heaven.  Read the following steps in order and when you are finished you can decide if you believe it or not.  If you do believe then I will help you pray and tell God that's what you believe and guide you to salvation with the sinner's prayer.

1. We are all guilty of committing sin.

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23)
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” (Romans 3:10)
“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:10).

2. The punishment for our sin is death and hell.
“For the wages of sin is death;” (Romans 6:23)
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14-15)
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.” (Mark 9:43-50)

3. God loved us so much that He sacrificed His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus was born of a virgin and lived a perfect and sinless life. He died on the cross, was buried and rose again to life.
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:9-13)
“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” (1 John 3:5)
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)

4. Salvation is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, not by trusting in your own good deeds to save you.

“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” (Acts 16:30-31)
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (John 1:12)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” (John 6:47)
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (John 11:25-26)
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:28)
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)

5. Once you are saved, you are always saved. There is nothing you can do to lose your salvation.

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)
“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” (Titus 1:2)
“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24)
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” (Hebrews 13:5)

(Extra: For Jehovah's Witnesses) Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is God also.
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (1 Timothy 3:16)
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:1-17)
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7)
“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.” (John 10:25-30)

(Extra: For Mormons) There is only one God.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:10-11)
“Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
“I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.” (Isaiah 45:5-6)

The Sinner's Prayer.
Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I know I deserve to go to Hell but I believe that you died on the cross for me and rose again. Please save me right now and give me eternal life. I'm only trusting in you Jesus. Amen.

December 26, 2014, 04:21:55 PM
Reply #1

Kyfixorus

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I do not belive that simply being born into life on earth you are a sinner and go to hell unless you praise Jesus christ. However I am also not certain, but if your intentions and actions are deemed good according to the spectrum you follow as a religion, you will grow again in heaven if you strictly belived it was so. That's just my interpretation for any wildly followed religious text. It's like a set of rules, but then again, what happens if you create your own set of rules for what's right or wrong and soley lived based on those assumptions?   
When your eyes are open its the physical
When your eyes are closed its the etheral
If you act the part reality will chase you
Be the being you wish and the choices will tighten the knot of thought to become your new conscious state.

December 26, 2014, 07:23:26 PM
Reply #2

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Yes I know where I'm going when I die: as a child I was initiated into the BOL via the Templars and as an adult I became my own higher self by merging with my previous higher self who was a senior non sword carrying Templar. My place within this plain is assured.

As a question if Jesus died on the cross for all our sins to be forgiven, does this mean that what ever I do I will have my sins written off?

Searcher
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

December 26, 2014, 10:45:02 PM
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ImmortalTimothy

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My afterlife is my choice. So I will know where I am going when I get there, until then I am going to stay here and live my life the way I wish and not the way any religion thinks I should live it. I am my own god.
I am my own God

December 27, 2014, 07:04:31 AM
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Steve

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You really shouldn't have named the thread about "Spiritual Enlightenment" when it's really just religious preaching.

Not only that, but you're wrong on points 4 and 5, and the two extras are contradictory. And the sinner's prayer is deceitful: it does not bring salvation either.


4) Salvation is achieved through the love of God that causes him to forgive us. Jesus and Jehovah made a pact whereby anyone who fully believes in Jesus (not merely that he lived, but also put into practice what he taught) are granted pardon by means of that agreement. But believing in Jesus is just a stepping stone to the real salvation, which is Jehovah forgiving individuals, and Jehovah is not restricted in this: Jehovah can decide to forgive people even if they have never heard of Jesus. This is proven by looking at the Laws of Moses, when Jehovah told the Jewish people what to do with "sin offerings" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%204&version=NIV
20 In this way the priest will make atonement for the community, and they will be forgiven.
26 In this way the priest will make atonement for the leader’s sin, and he will be forgiven.
31 In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.
35 In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.
Unless God is a liar, he very explicitly declared that he will forgive these people of their sins a couple of thousand years before Jesus showed up.

Jesus, according to Jesus' words in the bible, came to earth to preach the message of God about how God wants humans to live their lives. Thus, to "believe in Jesus" is to "believe that what Jesus preached was how God wants us to live our lives, and then to live that way". So, technically, as long as a person lives their life in accordance with how God wants us to live our lives, there would be no reason for God to put them aside. After all, that's what this entire thing is about: God created the planet, living things, and mankind, and then mankind sinned against God by disobedience and thus created the schism between man and God, and thus obedience (living your life in line with God's wishes) can allow man and God to live together again because God loves us and wants to forgive us (but because he is Just, he cannot simply forgive us while we knowingly continue to sin and don't even attempt to stop).

Even if a person were to attempt to employ a logical trap by saying "well, that means that anyone who is living a godly life (not merely a 'goodly' life, and certainly not merely a life of merely "not sinning". A godly life requires a person to actively help the people around them (help them, not preach at them) with their problems and concerns), even if they've never heard of Jesus, is still 'technically' 'having faith in Jesus', so it still counts", they would still be wrong because having faith in Jesus is not actually the salvation. But to be completely sure, I will explicitly state that it is not the good deeds that "saves" a person either: it is the forgiveness of God, and only the forgiveness of God, that will allow sins to be removed. The idea that salvation is attained through trusting in Jesus is because that kind of faith is one way to come to be forgiven, as it is part of the covenant between Jesus and Jehovah; the faith is just a stepping stone, in other words, to get to the real "salvation" (which is the forgiveness of God, such that humans and God are no longer separated due to the ungodly ways of mankind. However, if men continue to sin after being forgiven for their current sins, then they will be separated again. This leads into the next point).



5) The idea of "once saved, always saved" is blatantly false. It's a nice thing to believe in, but it's easily shown to be wrong.
"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24)
Notice the conditional. If salvation were permanent, then why did Paul spend so much time reminding the early churches to be righteous and chiding them of their sins? Paul spoke a lot in a "positive" sense towards the churches because he wanted to continually push them towards positive things, by pushing the concept that they are in christ and have died to sin and should continue living their new lives without looking back on their old live, rather than using negative fear tactics that we see in use today. But this does not mean that they were guaranteed to be eternally saved just by accepting Jesus once; the guarantee is that nobody else, neither satan nor other men, will be able to snatch them away from God, but that doesn't mean they themselves can't walk away from God.

Ephesians 5
Quote
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Thessalonians
Quote
3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13
Quote
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
The meaning is described later in verses 18-23

Matthew 18
Quote
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

~Steve
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 07:16:02 AM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 27, 2014, 08:18:07 AM
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to just summarise Steve, are you saying you disagree with this:

As a question if Jesus died on the cross for all our sins to be forgiven, does this mean that what ever I do I will have my sins written off?

First of all I was being sarcastic to the OP and probably secondly towards the hypocracy with in some religions, but be careful Steve you also have the ability to come across as holier than thou.

Searcher
PS I'm not Ryan there's no need to add a quote to everything, we're having a discussion/debate not a rewriting of history or mathematical calculation.
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

December 28, 2014, 04:43:17 PM
Reply #6

Steve

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My first post was a reply to Redd.

And yes, Searcher, I disagree with the ideology that "your sins are forgiven regardless of what you do".

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 28, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
Reply #7

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So you agree with Mary Magdalin sailing to Spain with her and Jesus's child (gender unknown).
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

December 29, 2014, 03:44:49 PM
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Steve

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So you agree with Mary Magdalin sailing to Spain with her and Jesus's child (gender unknown).

No, I don't agree with that, Searcher. Where the hell do those two thoughts connect? What does the theory that "Mary had a baby with Jesus and moved to Spain" have to do with the ideology that "your sins are NOT forgiven just because Jesus died on the cross; you have to do something in order to share in that gift/covenant"?

And I forgot to mention with the last post that I understand I come across as holier than thou at times. Because, at times, I am :D
>_>
<_<
Just kidding

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 29, 2014, 05:22:18 PM
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And why the hell didn't anyone object against this part:
5. Once you are saved, you are always saved. There is nothing you can do to lose your salvation.

December 29, 2014, 10:03:06 PM
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Mind_Bender

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And why the hell didn't anyone object against this part:
5. Once you are saved, you are always saved. There is nothing you can do to lose your salvation.

This is why you need to save yourself.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

December 30, 2014, 09:34:01 AM
Reply #11

Redd

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You really shouldn't have named the thread about "Spiritual Enlightenment" when it's really just religious preaching.

Not only that, but you're wrong on points 4 and 5, and the two extras are contradictory. And the sinner's prayer is deceitful: it does not bring salvation either.


4) Salvation is achieved through the love of God that causes him to forgive us. Jesus and Jehovah made a pact whereby anyone who fully believes in Jesus (not merely that he lived, but also put into practice what he taught) are granted pardon by means of that agreement. But believing in Jesus is just a stepping stone to the real salvation, which is Jehovah forgiving individuals, and Jehovah is not restricted in this: Jehovah can decide to forgive people even if they have never heard of Jesus. This is proven by looking at the Laws of Moses, when Jehovah told the Jewish people what to do with "sin offerings" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%204&version=NIV
20 In this way the priest will make atonement for the community, and they will be forgiven.
26 In this way the priest will make atonement for the leader’s sin, and he will be forgiven.
31 In this way the priest will make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.
35 In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.
Unless God is a liar, he very explicitly declared that he will forgive these people of their sins a couple of thousand years before Jesus showed up.

Jesus, according to Jesus' words in the bible, came to earth to preach the message of God about how God wants humans to live their lives. Thus, to "believe in Jesus" is to "believe that what Jesus preached was how God wants us to live our lives, and then to live that way". So, technically, as long as a person lives their life in accordance with how God wants us to live our lives, there would be no reason for God to put them aside. After all, that's what this entire thing is about: God created the planet, living things, and mankind, and then mankind sinned against God by disobedience and thus created the schism between man and God, and thus obedience (living your life in line with God's wishes) can allow man and God to live together again because God loves us and wants to forgive us (but because he is Just, he cannot simply forgive us while we knowingly continue to sin and don't even attempt to stop).

Even if a person were to attempt to employ a logical trap by saying "well, that means that anyone who is living a godly life (not merely a 'goodly' life, and certainly not merely a life of merely "not sinning". A godly life requires a person to actively help the people around them (help them, not preach at them) with their problems and concerns), even if they've never heard of Jesus, is still 'technically' 'having faith in Jesus', so it still counts", they would still be wrong because having faith in Jesus is not actually the salvation. But to be completely sure, I will explicitly state that it is not the good deeds that "saves" a person either: it is the forgiveness of God, and only the forgiveness of God, that will allow sins to be removed. The idea that salvation is attained through trusting in Jesus is because that kind of faith is one way to come to be forgiven, as it is part of the covenant between Jesus and Jehovah; the faith is just a stepping stone, in other words, to get to the real "salvation" (which is the forgiveness of God, such that humans and God are no longer separated due to the ungodly ways of mankind. However, if men continue to sin after being forgiven for their current sins, then they will be separated again. This leads into the next point).



5) The idea of "once saved, always saved" is blatantly false. It's a nice thing to believe in, but it's easily shown to be wrong.
"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24)
Notice the conditional. If salvation were permanent, then why did Paul spend so much time reminding the early churches to be righteous and chiding them of their sins? Paul spoke a lot in a "positive" sense towards the churches because he wanted to continually push them towards positive things, by pushing the concept that they are in christ and have died to sin and should continue living their new lives without looking back on their old live, rather than using negative fear tactics that we see in use today. But this does not mean that they were guaranteed to be eternally saved just by accepting Jesus once; the guarantee is that nobody else, neither satan nor other men, will be able to snatch them away from God, but that doesn't mean they themselves can't walk away from God.

Ephesians 5
Quote
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Thessalonians
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3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13
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13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
The meaning is described later in verses 18-23

Matthew 18
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23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

~Steve

I attempted to address every claim you made but I realized it would take more than an hour and would feel like untangling Christmas lights.  So after I typed for about a half an hour I realized that some of the problem is that you did not read the original post in the first place, so I just deleted my response and wrote this instead.  I knew you didn't actually read the original post because some of the original verses that I posted to begin with directly refuted some of your claims automatically and I found myself having to repost them a second time to respond to some of your claims.  Furthermore if you simply read the context of your own verses in the King James Version then I wouldn't have to sit here and explain an entire chapter to you and why you are misunderstanding the verses and why the NIV or whichever version you are using changes doctrine.  Long story short, I realized there is no point of trying to teach you something if your purpose is not to learn.  Some people don't want to learn maybe they have another purpose.  Perhaps they just enjoy endless debates.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Either way, if you actually are interested then you can just watch this sermon about "once saved always saved" by Pastor Steven Anderson.  And if you were not actually interested in learning the truth then you won't watch it and therefore I would have wasted my time responding to each of your claims to begin with anyway, as I originally expected.  Either way, it's all on you, not me.  Do whatever you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hycjHApNNOM

December 30, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
Reply #12

kobok

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Furthermore if you simply read the context of your own verses in the King James Version then I wouldn't have to sit here and explain an entire chapter to you and why you are misunderstanding the verses and why the NIV or whichever version you are using changes doctrine.

The what?  What world are you living in?

Steve already did an excellent job addressing the errors you made in mistranslating faith as belief.  Instead I will focus on your notion of King James authenticity...  The King James Version has largely fallen out of favor because there is broad consensus among Christian scholars that it is a highly flawed translation which corrupted the meaning of a large number of passages.  Protestant branches which in current time still adhere to the King James Version as an authoritative version do themselves a great disservice, and mislead people regarding the original content of the canonical bible.

You actually went as far as to quote one of the most famous such errors, the Comma Johanneum, in 1 John 5:7-8.  This passage was a non-authentic insertion made to justify the theology of the trinity (as it was a popular notion which lacked biblical support).  A careful examination of the literary evidence reveals that its insertion was erroneous, and it would be a discredit to truth and honesty to keep it around after knowing this.

Read the details for yourself:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
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December 30, 2014, 04:02:23 PM
Reply #13

Steve

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And why the hell didn't anyone object against this part:
5. Once you are saved, you are always saved. There is nothing you can do to lose your salvation.
*pokes Akenu a few times, then points to reply #4* :X


Redd:
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I attempted to address every claim you made but I realized it would take more than an hour and would feel like untangling Christmas lights.
Yep, the various ideologies, doctrines, passages, etc ad nauseum would indeed take a long time to untangle, much like christmas lights. It takes time. I don't recall how much time I spent on my reply, but I'm fairly certain it was more than an hour; this reply was only about a half hour.

However,
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I knew you didn't actually read the original post because some of the original verses that I posted to begin with directly refuted some of your claims automatically and I found myself having to repost them a second time to respond to some of your claims.
I actually did read the post the first time through. None of the verses in item 4 or 5 actually uphold the item listed. The best of your own quotes to show this for item 4 is this one:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I shortened it up by removing the last bit about works, as that's a distraction from the main point (it was part of Paul's main point to the ephesians because they were boasting about how they would be saved by their deeds, but in this case we are talking about what actually causes/allows-for salvation, so we can remove the bit about deeds just as Paul advised). We can clearly see by this verse that faith in Jesus is just a stepping stone to the true cause of salvation: God's forgiveness as a gift, not as something earned. Which is quite similar to what you posited, but with one major difference.

The word "alone". Salvation is not achieved by adherence to the Laws of Moses, nor is it achieved through deeds, but nor is it achieved through merely believing that Jesus is the son of God because that's not really "faith/belief in Jesus". Why do I say that? Because the demons knew that Jesus was the son of God, but I don't think they'll be getting into heaven by simply believing that. And the second reason is because no verse in the entirety of the new testament actually says "salvation is achieved through faith/belief that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for your sins, etc etc". There are plenty that say salvation is gained through faith in Jesus, not merely faith that Jesus existed or said something or did something or is something.

The modern idea of what it means to "believe" clouds the original meaning that the authors of the christian writings used: trust. (Here's a simple exercise for you. Go back through all of those verses that you posted that talk about "believing in Jesus" and read them as "trusting in Jesus" and see for yourself if the majority of them make more sense that way)

[EDIT]
Maybe I should say one more thing: the difference between belief and trust. In modern christianity, the word belief is used to say "I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that he died for my sins and rose again on the third day and that by believing this I will have eternal life. Stop." Whereas trust is more along the lines of "I believe that Jesus spread the message of God, I believe that he may have been the son of God (or not, not that it really matters), but more importantly I trust in Jesus such that I believe that if I do all of the things he has said that we humans should do, then I trust Jesus when he says I will have eternal life."

A more real world example would be one of them trust experiments that you might have heard about: Close your eyes, relax, ask Jesus to catch you, and then fall over backwards. Now, I honestly don't trust that Jesus would catch me if I were to do that, and that is what illustrates the difference between trust and belief, but if I were to trust it then I would fully expect Jesus to catch me. Believing in Jesus would mean the same thing, except that modern theology has changed the term belief "in" Jesus to simply mean believing that Jesus (and the stories about Jesus) was real. You can't test that kind of belief like you can test your trust.
[/EDIT]

And again for item 5, the best quote you used to show that the point is wrong is this one:
“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24)


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Furthermore if you simply read the context of your own verses in the King James Version then I wouldn't have to sit here and explain an entire chapter to you and why you are misunderstanding the verses and why the NIV or whichever version you are using changes doctrine.
I studied the bible for 12 years, out of my own inner desire to know what it actually says. I have checked both the KJV and NIV for accuracy against a number of greek versions where I translated various verses myself: the NIV is more accurate. Not only that, but the KJV was originally altered in order to induce certain doctrines that were not actually found in the original greek manuscripts; this has been well documented so I don't feel the need to show you proof of this, but at the very least I hope you are using the New KJV which was an attempt to ignore those mistakes and retranslate the older texts more properly.

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Long story short, I realized there is no point of trying to teach you something if your purpose is not to learn.  Some people don't want to learn maybe they have another purpose.  Perhaps they just enjoy endless debates.
I do enjoy debates, but I also enjoy teaching and learning. However, as I said before, I spent 12 years studying. There's not much you're going to teach me by posting a series of verses at me and saying they say stuff that they blatantly do not say.

But how about you? Are you willing to learn? Are you willing to learn that you are not saved for all time just because you were saved once, and that you need to continue trying to be a godly person? Are you willing to learn what it means to be saved?

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Do whatever you want.
Yeah, I tend to.

~Steve
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:16:01 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 31, 2014, 03:10:16 AM
Reply #14

Steve

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Are you willing to learn what it means to be saved?

What does it mean to be saved though? What does it imply? Why should someone be "saved"?
It's actually a rather simple answer that, unfortunately, gets mystified by the sheer volume of writing in the bible.

In short: To be "saved" is to be able to live in the presence of God again.

In biblical terms, this means that we would have to be forgiven of our sins, as our sins are what separate us from God; not, as some surmise, as a matter of mechanics, but instead because God himself pushes away people who wallow in sin. This is because sin is, by approximate definition, anything that anyone does that displeases God (I originally wrote that it was anything humans did that displeases God, but then remembered the angels were bound to that as well). Thus God pushes sin, and people who wallow in it, away from him because he does not want to be in the presence of anything that displeases him (fairly simple concept).

Of course, this is where the famous biblical statement comes in that people keep hearing Christians repeating: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Now, if all have sinned, and indeed it is so easy to sin and so hard not to, then how can anyone possibly be brought back to God? And so we come really quickly right back to forgiveness. According to Jewish and Christian theology, the "wages"/consequences of sin is "death", where death is defined as being separated from God (in this life for the Jews, and in the after life for the Christians), and so "salvation" from this "death"/separation means to come back into the presence of God. However, only God can forgive us because we cannot do anything of our own power to usurp God's free will and force him to forgive us. This begs the question: How do we get God to forgive us?

And so we come to the covenants, which is another term for established agreements between people or groups. The first covenant of the Jewish/Christian religions was between YHWH and the Jewish people (I'm not including Abraham because YHWH simply blessed Abraham; no covenant was actually established because it was wholly one sided), where YHWH basically told the Jewish people "I have given you a bunch of commandments. If you choose to agree to follow these commandments, then I will be your God and you will be my people. But if you accept this and then fail to adhere to the commandments, then I will visit upon you all of the wrathful things that are mentioned in the agreement" and the Jewish people said, in multiple generations, "We agree to this." This covenant was purely between the Jewish people and YHWH and has nothing to do with anyone or any nation elsewhere in the world (though the Jewish people were allowed to accept foreigners into their nation, those foreigners would be forced to accept the agreement in order to be accepted into the nation).

Next up was the Christian covenant between YHWH and Jesus. Here's where a lot of confusion comes into the picture because there are a number of unknowns that would have people argue over whether there even was a covenant or not, like whether Jesus and YHWH are "one" and thus "God can't enter into an agreement with himself" and stuff like that. However, I can definitively state that there was a covenant because there are certain basic things that are established by it. YHWH sent Jesus to preach a message, and then to die on the cross. In exchange for Jesus dying on the cross (the reasoning is twofold: 1) because Jesus was a Jew and was fulfilling a requirement for the "sin offering" as described in the Law of Moses, and 2) Jesus was supposedly sinless and thus had not "earned" his death, and so his death was given instead for the sake of others, and it was multiplied in value to account for the sins of every other person, instead of just one other person, because he chose to do it of his own free will), YHWH forgives the sins of anyone who comes to YHWH through Jesus; "through Jesus" means by accepting the words/message of Jesus as valid, and thus doing the things Jesus told people to do and live the way Jesus told people to live.

One problem: one of the main tenants of Christian theology is that, according to the Christian writings, a person can only come to YHWH through Jesus.
http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm
"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Now, I have a problem with that verse because it's not entirely historically accurate. YHWH has always cared about humans, right from the beginning. It was us who sinned against him in the beginning, in the biblical account, but that wasn't the end of our relationship with him. YHWH continued to live with humans and help them. To say that one can only come to YHWH through Jesus would beg several questions, of which I will only post two: how did YHWH ever deal with any of these other humans before Jesus? How did any of the people prior to Jesus get into heaven? The answers to these are not entirely clear for a number of confusing theological reasons, some biblical and some merely traditional. However, I can preempt them by calling the entire book of John, which is the only place that quote above is found in the bible, into question by noting that it's earliest possible penmanship is listed at around 90AD. This would put the author's earliest possible age at ~70 years old (12 years old to be an adult in Jewish culture, so that he could have become an apostle of Jesus, at 30AD when Jesus died, plus the 60 years difference); that's an exceptionally long life for a person of that era, especially a Christian as Christians were being actively killed off by the Romans and neither YHWH nor Jesus guaranteed any of the apostles a long life.
http://earlychristianwritings.com/ for the dating of the book

As such, it's entirely possible that the quote itself is not entirely accurate. Another possible way of understanding it is to define what it means to come to the Father "through Jesus". It is clearly established in the bible that "through Jesus" has a requirement of "believing in Jesus", and thus the stuff I posted to Redd about the different definitions between the modern era versus the ancient era with regards to what it means to "believe in Jesus". If "following the message of Jesus" is enough, even if you don't believe that "Jesus was the son of God" or that "he died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins" or any number of other ideas, then living a godly life is enough to be inducted by actions into the covenant of Jesus. This is a tentative position as its validity could easily be called into question, but it shows that certain assumptions of in Christian theology are not what we in the modern era believe that they are.

After all, would YHWH REALLY kick someone out of heaven who lives a perfectly godly life in the manner that YHWH wants us to, but simply refuses to acknowledge a piece of theology such as "Jesus is the son of God"? That does not sound like YHWH's M.O. to me when the entire message of the bible is about living a godly life in order to come back to the God that we got ourselves separated from by sinning. God never punished anyone, in the entirety of the bible (that I can think of off the top of my head), for believing or disbelieving a piece of theology; instead God has punished people for the things they do, the things they say (which tend to influence the things they do), or the way they live their lives (which is merely a large set of individual "things they do" that get grouped together).


Despite anything I may have written above, however, I have to state that I did come to YHWH through Jesus, which is to say that I was baptised, believed in the message of Jesus as found in the bible, and strove to live a life as Jesus said to. My life in recent years, however, has not been one that I could describe as "walking with God". But that's just my life.

~Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 03:18:12 AM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?