Author Topic: Attempting to identify a talisman  (Read 8765 times)

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December 23, 2014, 11:42:33 AM
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Forg

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I'm attempting to figure out what sort of talisman this is: https://imgur.com/a/haS2f

It being obviously Kabbalistic in nature, I would figure this to be a good place to ask. Any ideas?
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

December 23, 2014, 01:14:38 PM
Reply #1

Steve

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Well, I was going to start posting links but it seems everything I found was already covered by replies in your reddit post :)

With all the people finding them, it sounds like some weird treasure hunt ;)

But as one person mentioned, the "Yod Je Vau Je" spelling variant seems to be specifically Spanish. I do find it odd that they would spell out "Yod Je Vau Je" on the one side but then use different letters for the shortened version "YHVH" on the other side; especially in the english alphabet. Considering the many uses of hebrew, the hebrew יהוה would have made more sense.

People mentioned masonic, probably because of the Eye of Providence, but none of the images for "masonic medallion" look even very similar. Plus, the eye has actually been used by a number of religions, so it's not solely specific to the masons.

The shapes, numbers, angel names, and YHVH all seem to point to kabbalah, but I don't see the "Eye of Providence" represented strongly in kabbalah; a single passage in "The Kabbalah Unveiled" (which isn't very old) mentions it by name.

Sachiel goes by another name, which seems more popular: Zadkiel/Zedekiel/Zadakiel/Tzadkiel/Zedekul (spelling variations). Unfortunately, I can't find the origin for this angel (it might be in the 5th century CE from Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, who listed him as one of the potential seven archangels, in his own personal list that deviated from the original book of enoch list and from the later catholic list).

I can't make out all of the angel's names, but if you look into them then that might help you narrow it down. I see Uriel, Samael, Raphael, ???, Michael, Sachiel, Gabriel, Haniel?.

Whereever it's from, it's definitely from a mixed-religious background.

Good luck finding out, Forg!

EDIT: Actually, there was two more things that were bothering me. The 8 pointed star. Apparently used by a number of religions, like the eye, that specific shape however seems to correlate to the images in the mayan and hindu images on this page http://mysteryoftheiniquity.com/2014/01/14/the-8-pointed-star-symbol/ though I have no idea how authentic that page is, or whether that specific shape is found in a myriad of other religious symbols. Another google search shows the Islam 8 pointed star looks similar.

And finally, the cross seems to mostly correlate to the greek cross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross#As_emblems_and_symbols

~Steve
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 01:31:04 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 23, 2014, 09:03:00 PM
Reply #2

Forg

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I was actually wondering of the use of the eye of providence in this case was representative of the Golden Dawn's use, given it's similarity to the version used by Regardie. This, along with the use of the 8 point star and the tetragrammaton leads me to believe it might be representative of some random Kabbalistic order, of which I'm certain there are many.

 As you said, Steve, it's certainly a mixture of religious symbolism, and that doesn't make it any clearer...

I should note, I didn't actually find that coin. I just saw it on reddit and found it interesting given that I couldn't figure out where it came from.

Thanks for the insight!
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

December 24, 2014, 10:37:41 AM
Reply #3

Steve

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Forg: Aw well, darn. Sounds like the person who did have it could have sold it for a nice chunk of change ^_^

Rayn: I'm afraid I'm entirely correct in this case :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton#Origins There are a number of variant transliterations for the names of four letters that make up the name of the Jewish god.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_%28letter%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_%28letter%29

In the specific case used on that talisman, "Yod Je Vau Je" is decisively a Spanish variant of the names of the letters that compose the tetragrammaton, as evidenced by a shit ton of Spanish language websites that use the entire phrase all together, and not just pieces of it here and there.
http://www.senderoastral.com/2012/06/ceremonia-para-invocar-angeles.html
http://tumundoespiritual.blogspot.ca/2009/08/la-rueda-de-la-fortuna-x.html Lists the english variant "Jehová" in brackets directly after wards
http://luzangelical.webcindario.com/ritual.htm Also lists Jehová directly afterwards
etc etc

Thus the one side of the talisman literally lists, in Spanish, the names of four letters that make up the name of God, while on the other side they switch to a more modern transliteration of just the four letters (and not the names of the four letters), YHWH. When I was growing up and studying the name of God, JHVH was a more common variant, which is where Jehovah (JeHoVaH-), the older english name of the Jewish god, comes from. The new variant YHWH gives us the modern english name of the Jewish god, Yahweh (YaH-WeH-).

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 24, 2014, 01:35:22 PM
Reply #4

Akenu

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@Forg: You might want to check with this guy: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Coin-Collecting-2297/2008/6/f/Star-David-coin.htm
@Rayn: You are latino, not Spanish, plus be a nice boy and translate this: http://luzangelical.webcindario.com/ritual.htm
This is in Spanish and Yod Je Vau Je truly appear there.

December 24, 2014, 01:59:45 PM
Reply #5

Steve

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If I showed the words "Yod Heh Vau Heh" to lots of native english speakers, guess what? They'd also laugh and say it's not english. Why? Because it's not. It's a transliteration from hebrew into another language, just like Yod Je Vau Je.

Maybe you should reread what I said before you make yourself look more foolish :)

Especially with strawmen like this:
Quote
because it is beyond idiotic to call the French Je a Spanish word. Je is I, which, in Spanish, is Yo.
So I guess it's a good thing I never said that, eh?

The word "Je" AS IT IS USED IN THE "Yod Je Vau Je" is not a word that translates to another word, in english, french or spanish: it is a name for a letter from a completely different alphabet. Transliteration (not translation. learn the difference) issues abound. So it really doesn't matter what "Je" stands for in french, as that's not the language in question.

You're looking at it backwards, trying to decipher the words "yod je vau je" individually from other languages without realizing that it's the Tetragrammaton and you just need to figure out which language it's being used in.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 24, 2014, 03:56:20 PM
Reply #6

Steve

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Rayn:
Yod is not english. Heh is not english. Vav is not english. But Yod Heh Vav Heh (or any of a number of similar variants) are considered to be the english names for the four letters that make up the name of the Jewish god. Same goes for the Spanish variant of Yod Je Vau Je. Only the Spanish use the spelling "Je" for the second and fourth letter. The latin does not consider the J to be a valid transliteration for the letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_%28letter%29 The latin would have used one of these as the base letter instead: F V U W Y. The latin does not have a J.

If we were dealing with latin, then why does a search for the phrase "yod je vau je" turn up Spanish results and not latin results? The latin doesn't use the tetragrammaton and instead uses the term "Adonai" which means "Lord". AT BEST a latin group would have used the term "Jehovah/Jehova" (this is something that directly derived from the latin into the spanish, just as it derived from the latin into the english) instead of naming each letter of the tetragrammaton in order. Anyone who would have used latin would have used something completely different than yod je vau je.

Seriously. The exact phrasing is found solely on Spanish sites. It's not native to spanish because it is only native to Semetic alphabets. But the Yod Je Vau Je is a decisively Spanish variant. It does not matter if individual words, even if it is all of them, came from the latin: that exact phrasing came from a Spanish Kabbalic group. That medallion likely came from a Spanish group, or at the very least from a group that has strong ties to a country that officially speaks Spanish.

~Steve
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 03:59:23 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 24, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
Reply #7

Steve

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Yod is Hebrew, not latin, not english, not spanish. How many times have I mentioned this?

You are wrong, but you can also go ahead and believe what you want and look like an idiot as well.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 24, 2014, 06:44:36 PM
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kobok

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In this instance I'm pretty sure Steve is correct there.  "Yod" is a transliteration of a letter in the Hebrew alphabet.  YHVH is the roman letter equivalent of Jehovah (the vowels are removed), and when used amidst English the letters are most commonly transliterated as something like Yod He Vau He.  See the Hebrew alphabet.  The only difference in the talisman Forg was interested in is that the letter "He" is being written "Je".  One can easily deduce that this means it has been transliterated into one of the languages in which "Je" is pronounced closer to the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet.  And, it just so happens that in many dialects of Spanish this is the case.  That is why Steve was able to point to several Spanish language sites which used Yod Je Vau Je as a Spanish-transliteration of the Hebrew alphabetic representation of Jehovah.  (This does not mean it is a Spanish "word", which is why Steve initially called it a "spelling variant".)

It does not make sense from the context on the talisman that this would have anything to do with yod as in yodo/iodine, nor that it would have anything to do with the historic pronunciations of Vulgar Latin letters since it is a Hebrew name.  The Vulgate, the prominent early official canonical Latin version of the Bible, used the word "adonai", meaning Lord, where YHVH was previously used.
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December 25, 2014, 03:44:38 AM
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It is a talisman with the Jewish name of 'God.' Does it have power? Does it serve a practical magical application? Do you have confidence you can call upon this ideal of a God source; upon angels?

Basically, I say personal sigil with traditional symbolism.

"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

December 25, 2014, 05:11:50 AM
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Akenu

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@Rayn: You are not Spanish and your language is about as close to Spanish as Canadian French is to French, enough said. Now, Yod He Vau He is English way how to write these 3 Hebrew letters. If you were to seek it in Czech, you would look for Jod Hé Vav Hé and if you were to look for Spanish sources you would go for Yod Je Vau Je, it's that simple.

No one here claims these are Spanish words, just a Spanish way how to write down these letters. Also claiming that Yod is latin would be about as stupid as Jod being Czech because in Czech jod means Iodine, but this obviously is not what is referred in this particular case.

December 25, 2014, 11:29:58 AM
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Akenu

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Rayn: The truth is that you actually know nothing about Spanish culture, the truth also is you made a loooooong post to cover your own ignorance of the OP as you didn't respond to the main portion of my post.

December 26, 2014, 05:11:40 AM
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Akenu

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@Rayn: Repetition is a mother of wisdom ;-), plus at least pointing something out instead of ignoring something is much more fair in terms of communication, plus yes, I did miss that portion of conversation.

So now we have agreed upon that this talisman indeed can be Spanish (does not need to be, but can be). So are there any famous hermetic orders with Spanish origins?

December 27, 2014, 03:20:35 AM
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Nicodemus

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Spain and Portugal are bioculturally european and are part of european culture and civilization, Latin america is not. Calling latin americans hispanic is like calling african-americans or jamaicans anglo-saxon.
There are only 2 hispanic/european countries in Latin America; Argentina and Uruguay. Spain is much more similar to Canada, Australia or Russia than to Mexico, Nicaragua, etc.

December 27, 2014, 07:55:06 AM
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To throw something else in the mix

The top of Spain particularly Catalunya is a mix of Islamic (via the Mores, check spelling), romanic Catholicism and European Paganism, probably in the order of priority I have given. Towns and cities like Peniscola truly reflect this, although this is on the edge of Calalunya.

This area is known to be the only area to have an official Spanish dialect, other areas are just ascents. Within this area there are many festivals to celebrate many things, including; the prawn and Mary's Magdalene's landing with her child (believed by many to be Jesus's).   

Many churches in the area reflect the differing beliefs in their style of build, not many have the std European cross configuration, some have round squat type spires reflecting Templar influence, some believe it or not have Islamic spinneret type bell housings. Even some of the Costa's reflect this, e.g. Costa Nortay and the Costa Ahzar (there are many Costa's and can you say that Ahzar is typical Spanish?)

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Which bit are you going to pick up on Steve?
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