Author Topic: About suicide  (Read 10784 times)

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October 31, 2014, 04:21:22 AM
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Akenu

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The topic of suicide has appeared on the number of occult forums I frequently visit so I decided to write something about the topic from both mundane and occult sense. Suicide can be defined as a voluntary end of one's own existence, before we talk about the implications of such act, let's make a quick overview of common reasons.

Reasons for suicide
Most common reason is depression, the person thinks that no one loves him/her, no one cares for him/her, this is actually quite common for teenagers. The social background doesn't matter in this case, whether parents are abusive or careless or whether family is rich or poor, this case can still appear.

Another reason (often mixed with the first one) is that people believe they are worthless, that they have no value in the society, no reason for living, this is also a form of depression.

Another common reason is pain, a horrible, persistent, unbearable pain. Pain that cannot be stopped and often immobilizes the person, making him/her believe to be a burden for family which has to care about this person.

Yet another reason was cultural, suicide to make a statement, usually by self-burning or cutting one's wrist. Tibetan monks are known to commit the burning suicide. In Europe there was a fashion called Emo, that often commited the suicide by the wrist cutting because "no one understood them", this represented a cult like mentality and fortunately this subculture came out of fashion and was significantly reduced.

The act
The whole act of the suicide is a very painful procedure, usually persisting of initial act of courage which cannot be taken back no matter what. What I am talking about is that one step from the building or the sliced open wrist. Victim of this act often changes the decision to commit the suicide but it's too late for it. Once you are falling down the building, once you are set afire, once your blood started flowing from your veins, there is very little you can do to stop it.

Many people who survived their suicide attempt were happy they didn't die, during the attempt they realised was a big mistake. These cases are actually reported, so some google search might give you more information.

Implication of suicide from mundane sense
We all have problems, that's how it works. But no matter how unloved, unappreciated or worthless you feel, there is always someone who cares for you and by ending your own life, you will make them suffer. Suicide is actually the most mean and selfish act you can commit, it's the most cruel thing you can do to people who care about you, and trust me, there is always someone.

If your condition makes you be dependable on others, whether your family or your partners, your death won't lift the burden, it will actually increase it. These people take care of you because their love you and your end will hurt them in the most horrible way.

Being worthless is a state of mind, not a fact. We all make bad decisions and these decisions form what we are, but past isn't the creator of future. In future you can be what you want, in future you can achieve anything and mean a lot for many people, maybe even for whole nations. The key to success lies in presence. If you stop with the self-pity and stand up, you can achieve anything you want, you just have to do something for it. Remember, the key lies in what you do right now, at this very moment, shape your future.

Suicide from the occult perspective
First of all I want to make a little spoiler for sensitive people, this is where it gets nasty, so you should probably stop reading right about now.

If, from the mundane perspective there is a belief all troubles end, it's the exact opposite in occult/mystical point of view. With a suicide all the horror actually begins, and much bigger than whatever problems you think you had. So, what exactly happens after a successful suicide?

First of all the link between the body, the spirit and the soul will sever due to the damage you did to the body. This cannot be taken back, remember that. Next part is where you get a lot of new "friends". Astral larvae you created via the suicide, also phantoms of spirits, some lower entities and few more stuff. They all will leech you and make you suffer in the most horrible ways for ethernity. Pain you would never believe is possible, depression worst than ever, also a fear and an inability to do something about it.

Some people will find a way to reduce these problems, by attaching those who loved them during their lives and feeding on their depressions and crying, becoming phantoms or ghouls, leeching energy from their lovers, that will be the only thing that will help them to reduce their own suffering. But the cry for someone doesn't last forever and this possibility will also fade in time, leaving just the horrors, forever, with no way out and no one to help you.

What to do if someone can possibly commit a suicide
If you are suspicious about someone having thoughts about suicide, don't just stand back, speak with the person and make them know you care about them, there are also suicide lines everywhere, find one closest to you and discuss this topic with them, describe what your friend does and how he acts and they will know what to do. Do everything you can to stop this from happening, after all, you can save someone's life, both physical and metaphysical.

October 31, 2014, 05:26:55 AM
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Constructman

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What paradigm is this coming from? This is the first time I've seen suicide talked about in this manner, though "astral larvae" do sound familiar. And what would be the difference between a suicide and a natural or accidental death? What happens to people who don't die by their own hand?

October 31, 2014, 05:29:36 AM
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Akenu

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What paradigm is this coming from? This is the first time I've seen suicide talked about in this manner, though "astral larvae" do sound familiar. And what would be the difference between a suicide and a natural or accidental death? What happens to people who don't die by their own hand?

What happens after death (or during death specifically, because that's what you really want to know) is a bit complex topic, so if you agree, I would keep this one on the suicide topic.

October 31, 2014, 07:17:07 AM
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Akenu

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I reject this hellish notion you have, for one, and, for two, I see nothing wrong with a person deciding to end their life if it is a rational decision brought about due to having a degenerative condition of which no cure exists that will ultimately kill them in brutal ways. I also condone a mother jumping in front of a bullet for a child, or someone in the military dying to protect his comrades or a teacher getting in the way of a shooter to protect children in a class room in a mass school shooting. This is so say there are altruistic forms of suicide. I've read this several times, and, basically, this is an if you kill yourself you go to hell argument.

Nope, not really, but frankly I expected a bit better argumentation from you.

October 31, 2014, 07:38:11 AM
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Akenu

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Nope, not really, but frankly I expected a bit better argumentation from you.

An eternal state of torment and suffering is an eternal state of hell, and if this is caused by the act of suicide, then this is to say that suicide causes a state of being in hell. This also ignored altruistic cases of suicide which can be ethical cases of suicide, so this is to say that a person is tormented for a moral decision.

Did you read the whole article?

October 31, 2014, 07:46:32 AM
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Akenu

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Did you read the whole article?

Yes, and you speak of being in an eternal state of suffering tormented by the phantoms created by the act. This is a cross-cultural definition of hell. Since this is a consequence of suicide, this means that one is in a state of hell in their afterlife for their action; therefore, they are in a state of hell because of committing suicide.

Larvas are created, not phantoms, read it again.

October 31, 2014, 07:53:09 AM
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Akenu

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Larvas are created, not phantoms, read it again.

This does not change the merit of my point.

It means you didn't even read it properly, you speak about people who decide to commit a suicide as the end of the suffering that would still end in death and you criticize it for the occult segment of the article, but have you read the mundane perspective as well? Something is mentioned there.

October 31, 2014, 08:01:22 AM
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Akenu

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...but have you read the mundane perspective as well? Something is mentioned there.

Yes, and in the context of a painful and terminal illness, it is not accurate in that people tend to want to end the suffering of that family member. There is actually a case of facilitated suicide in the United States, at the moment. The issue is really a legal one in that facilitating the death of someone via suicide is illegal as is suicide, but, in the United States at least, there seems to be a cultural shift happening at the moment. Altruistic suicide is also culturally accepted and even celebrated.

So, is it something worth celebration?

October 31, 2014, 08:07:51 AM
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Akenu

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So, is it something worth celebration?

If your children were going to die due to a blast of something, and the only way to protect them would be to jump in front of it and thus die, what would you do? And, what would be your feelings about any other father who would do that?


That's not a suicide, it's a protection of a close relative no matter the consequences, you don't die for others, you do it to protect lives of others, got it?

And when you already mentioned assisted suicides, form a legal sense these will always have holes one can use to abuse them, as it was clearly shown with the most famous person in terms of suicides:

According to a report by the Detroit Free Press, 60% of the patients who committed suicide with Kevorkian's help were not terminally ill, and at least 13 had not complained of pain. The report further asserted that Kevorkian's counseling was too brief (with at least 19 patients dying less than 24 hours after first meeting Kevorkian) and lacked a psychiatric exam in at least 19 cases, 5 of which involved people with histories of depression, though Kevorkian was sometimes alerted that the patient was unhappy for reasons other than their medical condition. (In 1992, Kevorkian himself wrote that it is always necessary to consult a psychiatrist when performing assisted suicides because a person's "mental state is ... of paramount importance."[20]) The report also stated that Kevorkian failed to refer at least 17 patients to a pain specialist after they complained of chronic pain, and sometimes failed to obtain a complete medical record for his patients, with at least three autopsies of suicides Kevorkian had assisted with showing the person who committed suicide to have no physical sign of disease. Rebecca Badger, a patient of Kevorkian's and a mentally troubled drug abuser, had been mistakenly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The report also stated that Janet Adkins, Kevorkian's first patient, had been chosen without Kevorkian ever speaking to her, only with her husband, and that when Kevorkian first met Adkins two days before her assisted suicide he "made no real effort to discover whether Ms. Adkins wished to end her life," as the Michigan Court of Appeals put it in a 1995 ruling upholding an order against Kevorkian's activity.[20] According to The Economist: "Studies of those who sought out Dr. Kevorkian, however, suggest that though many had a worsening illness ... it was not usually terminal. Autopsies showed five people had no disease at all. ... Little over a third were in pain. Some presumably suffered from no more than hypochondria or depression."[21]

In response, Kevorkian's attorney Geoffrey Fieger published an essay stating, "I've never met any doctor who lived by such exacting guidelines as Kevorkian ... he published them in an article for the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry in 1992. Last year he got a committee of doctors, the Physicians of Mercy, to lay down new guidelines, which he scrupulously follows."[20] However, Fieger stated that Kevorkian found it difficult to follow his "exacting guidelines" due to "persecution and prosecution", adding "[H]e's proposed these guidelines saying this is what ought to be done. These are not to be done in times of war, and we're at war."[20]

In a 2010 interview with Sanjay Gupta, Kevorkian stated an objection to the status of assisted suicide in Oregon, Washington, and Montana. Only in those three states is assisted suicide legal in the United States, and then only for terminally ill patients. To Gupta, Kevorkian stated, "What difference does it make if someone is terminal? We are all terminal."[22] In his view, a patient did not have to be terminally ill to be assisted in committing suicide, but did need to be suffering. However, he also said in that same interview that he declined four out of every five assisted suicide requests, on the grounds that the patient needed more treatment or medical records had to be checked.[23]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian

October 31, 2014, 08:30:37 AM
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Akenu

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You are not deciding to die, you are deciding to save someone else, plus you also hope you still can survive it. Suicide is when you yourself take your own life with your own hands and with this intent in mind. If you e.g. put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger because you believe it's empty, that's not a suicide at all, that's stupidity.

October 31, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
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Akenu

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You are not deciding to die, you are deciding to save someone else, plus you also hope you still can survive it. Suicide is when you yourself take your own life with your own hands and with this intent in mind. If you e.g. put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger because you believe it's empty, that's not a suicide at all, that's stupidity.

Actually, no, because some people kill themselves by jumping in front of a car or a train which is like jumping in front of a blast. If we say a person who jumps in front of a car or a train is committing a non-altruistic form of suicide, then this means the same for jumping in front of a blast. An altruistic behavior is a behavior when a person does something for someone and loses while the other person benefits, or gains. So, since that would be considered suicide for the benefit of the health and safety of your children, which is altruistic, this would be classified as altruistic suicide. It is a pretty straight forward clinical definition that is a conventional, and proper, usage of the term. Moral behavior, in human beings, tends to be an extension of altruistic behavior, so this means that this behavior can loosely be regarded as moral, so this implies eternal torment for a moral decision.   

You are still missing the point. Let's make a car situation. A car is speeding and you see your children on the road. You will naturally try to get the children off the road but you won't just bump into them and then stand on the road like an idiot waiting for the car, you will also try to get out of the car"s way as soon as possible, if you didn't make it and the car hit you, do you consider that a suicide?

October 31, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
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Akenu

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You are still missing the point. Let's make a car situation. A car is speeding and you see your children on the road. You will naturally try to get the children off the road but you won't just bump into them and then stand on the road like an idiot waiting for the car, you will also try to get out of the car"s way as soon as possible, if you didn't make it and the car hit you, do you consider that a suicide?

You presented an entirely different situation than what I brought up, though, because the safety of the children can be facilitated by means other than the death of the parent in that situation; however, in the situation I laid out, the safety of the children can only be facilitated by the death of the parent thereby making it an altruistic form of suicide where the parent knows they will likely die. You presented an entirely different point to negate a point that I never made and thus it is a straw-man. If a terrorists hijacks a plane, and the passengers crash it in a field before they reach the hijackers intended target, this is an altruistic form of suicide(this actually happened).

Because suicide is a fuckin' planned thing, you don't think about exchanging your life for someone else's in emergency situation, in emergency situation you just jump there without thinking and regarding the other case you were talking about, regarding passengers and the plane, was that a death to end own suffering? And where does your definition of suicide actually starts and end? If I get shot, did I commit a suicide? It was my choice to had my head where the bullet was coming right? How about passengers on the plane that had nothing to do with crashing the plane into the field? Were they also committing a suicide?

And I am telling you again, if I stand beofre my children into the blast, it's not because I am choosing my own death, but I am naturally choosing his life, and once again I am telling you, I don't do it to die, I do it to protect him (or them) and in such a situation my death won't even cross my mind even once.

Maybe we are not understanding each other for cultural differences, but in my language suicide is called sebevrazda, which means self-murder.

October 31, 2014, 09:36:24 AM
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Akenu

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Just to make few things straight.
In my country, when someone choose to endanger or even cease his own life for the benefit of others, that's not called a suicide, but a self-sacrifice. And, as one could actually figure out, it's not always a good thing. Sure, saving your child's life, or generally a children's lives is a good thing. But sacrificing yourself for your religion and for that also hurt or murder a lot of people staying around, that's really bad.

Or what do you think those terrorists were doing? "We crash the plane because we are evil". No, they also did it for their own altruistic reasons and if IS actually manages to spread to the world, in few generations this will become a general morality standard. But yes, according to you all altruistic suicides are fine and therefore also all suicides in general and that also mean you do not suffer for ending your own life with your own hands for your own selfish twisted reasons.

October 31, 2014, 09:58:25 AM
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Akenu

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Just to make few things straight.
In my country, when someone choose to endanger or even cease his own life for the benefit of others, that's not called a suicide, but a self-sacrifice. And, as one could actually figure out, it's not always a good thing. Sure, saving your child's life, or generally a children's lives is a good thing. But sacrificing yourself for your religion and for that also hurt or murder a lot of people staying around, that's really bad.

It is scientifically and objectively studied as a form of altruistic suicide; therefo
And, as one could actually figure out, it's not always a good thingre, one cannot argue cultural subjectivism. It actually has evolutionary implications.

I did not say it is always a good thing. I just pointed out a flaw in your argument, because it proposes that people who commit suicide will be in an eternal state of suffering(though you have given no actual evidence for this); therefore, it would include parents who die to protect their children where you say this is a morally good thing, so if it is a morally good thing, then why are people in a state of eternal suffering for doing something good? Where is your evidence for your comments about eternity?

It is objectively studied as altruistic suicide in English speaking countries, but not everywhere it is considered as a suicide as I already pointed out in the case of my own fucking country, or do you think English is the beginning and end of the whole world? It's not even the most widely spoken native language ;-)

October 31, 2014, 10:18:49 AM
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Suicide sucks because that is because death sucks (mainly of a loved one or one percieved as innocent, such as a child), but I think it is rather ignoble and ridiculous to even think you know what happens in an occult sense. Until you die you don't know, you only have fragments of ancient teachings and magical workings. The realm of death is still the most 'occult' of occult teachings. Period.

Mentioning the Tibetans suicide counters your belief that suicide is bad and out of selfishness. It's called martyrdom, which is percieved as a noble and glorious practice, and I agree 100% with Rayn on altruistic suicide. Taking your life is taking your life whether it be in loving sacrifice or piss poor decisions - you're still dying by your own volition.

The Samurai were big on ritual suicide. Counter to your belief that suicide (remember all acts of taking ones life are considered suicide) leads to hell realms, the Samurai believed that you avoided hell realms (by dishonor) by taking your own life. Whether you fully disembowel yourself or are beheaded before you can scream (thus dishonoring yourself further), they are both ritual acts of suicide that help seal your honor within your clan.
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