Author Topic: Empty Force - Kong Jing  (Read 11886 times)

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February 02, 2016, 01:47:19 AM
Reply #15

Mind_Bender

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That's an interesting explanation. My (now defunct) Sifu told me that Jing is just Jin with a 'g' at the end. Maybe I missed something?

Are you saying that Jing is a something, or a place of sorts (lower Dan Ti'en for example) and Jin is the method of power? In other words, Jin is to Jing as Yi is to Shen?

My current teacher doesn't talk about any of the lingo, we just do our form and apply each Gua with a partner to understand what we should be focusing on. He's all about relaxation (which is awesome!).

Good to see you around Koujiryuu, even if we had some heated words in the past!  :)
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

February 02, 2016, 02:36:54 AM
Reply #16

Koujiryuu

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That's an interesting explanation. My (now defunct) Sifu told me that Jing is just Jin with a 'g' at the end. Maybe I missed something?

Are you saying that Jing is a something, or a place of sorts (lower Dan Ti'en for example) and Jin is the method of power? In other words, Jin is to Jing as Yi is to Shen?

My current teacher doesn't talk about any of the lingo, we just do our form and apply each Gua with a partner to understand what we should be focusing on. He's all about relaxation (which is awesome!).

Good to see you around Koujiryuu, even if we had some heated words in the past!  :)

What you said essentially sums it up. Yes, Jing is tangible, it is the sexual energy, and it is also a place. Jin is the method of applying Jing. But where it gets complicated is that this also naturally involves Qi. You cannot work with Jing (essence) or Jin (power) without working with Qi- breath; in the literal sense. This is one thing some people miss, it's something you learn early but forget. Qi is not just energy but also breath, and this is VERY important for Jin. At this point it also strongly involves Yi; Yi is mostly related to Shen, correct, but it is also strongly linked to Qi. You cannot do anything with Qi without intention; likewise with Jin and Jing. If you have strong enough Yi you can transform Jing to Qi and vice versa; you can also invoke the kundalini, or Xi Shui Jing, and begin the alchemical process of turning Jing, to Qi, to Shen, to Void (nothingness). So yes, you could say Jin is to Jing as Yi is to Shen, but you could also say a lot of other similar statements and probably be correct. I think mentioned this once but at some point, they all seem to merge together. You can theorize and explain and talk about it all you want but the reality is that it's worthless unless you DO IT. What you're doing now with your teacher seems like it's about right. And yes, relaxation is totally key and probably why I like lying meditation (lying down) more than anything else. Hope this all makes sense.

To elaborate, it's actually a little more complex than that (Jin and Jing), though, when you factor in things like Yuan Qi (original or Pre-Natal Qi), Yuan Jing (original Jing) and so on. Basically, the goal as I understand it is to merge and reunify all these separate forces in the Lower Dantien. As I said, this happens through meditation, your Qigong forms (sinking the weight) and especially the Microcosmic Orbit. Most people, and most internal stylists seem to get to the point of having sunk the Post-Natal Qi to the Lower Dantien (the Qi from air and food), where it gathers with Original Pre-Natal Qi (Qi from the mother/fetus). Then, if they are lucky they gain some ability to direct Qi. They may also build Jin (internal power). But they never learn the method to transform Qi to Jing, and they might not even open their vessels, especially conception (renmei). The kundalini process can take a lot of time and it takes hard work, it took me 1 month of meditation and yoga 6 hours a day. Yes, I know it's short, but it felt like it was "meant" to happen when it did. (Prior to that I was still doing around 3 hours a day training for a year.) Most people don't have this time and most teachers themselves don't even have it. It was only after a lot of research that what I had done with the kundalini process was basically Xi Shui Jing to the Daoists. And in theory, this means unification of Original Qi, Original Jing, Post Natal Qi, Post Natal Jing rising up the spine to the upper Dantien to reunify with Shen. I kind of doubt that any Tai Chi or Ba Gua teacher would be able to explain this stuff, let alone teach someone to do it. I was only able to figure it out from a Daoist context after much research. So anyway, it seems like they may be able to develop Jin and Qi but kind of miss the Jing and Shen part altogether.

I could say more if it interests you, about what I feel in meditation and my experiences and so on, but I don't want to seem like I'm rambling. I started to write about it but then thought it sounded kind of crazy, delusional, egotistical etc. so I stopped.

I don't recall any heated words with you. It must have been 2 or 3 years ago now. Water under the bridge. And I totally respect your experience (I wish I had a Bagua teacher here!)



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February 02, 2016, 03:50:27 AM
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I went through two or three teachers in the last year before I found my current instructor. A Xing-Yi master I trained with told me that all of the Three Treasures depends on how mystical you want to get with your meditations and kung fu. He didn't care too much even for the basic idea of placing your tongue on your palate and slightly tightening your sphincter, neither did my former Sifu (which is actually a traditional Strongman practice for a stronger core and to remain fully tense with your strength training), because they both believed it just charges you up and it is not necessary unless you are going to battle, and my current teacher hasn't even mentioned it.

All of my kung fu/internal arts instructors basically said/say the same thing - sink your chest, relax your shoulders, gently curve your spine, breathe into your lower Dan Ti'en, and relax into your stance/movement for solid and natural grounding, everything else will come with practice and time. The Xing Yi instructor was really into San Ti (Three Postures Stance) which is basically just the Xing Yi version of Yiquan, and working up to an hour - Xing Yi is all about the strength of the Mind - To paraphrase; don't count repetitions, just set a timer (10-60 minutes) and just get through it and repeat so you are practicing for at least an hour, three if you wanted to train like he and his partner did in Taiwan, changing between San Ti, basic technique to repeating your linked form.

The Xing Yi instructor also brought up an interesting point where after you develop your lower Dan Ti'en with enough practice you can learn to send your 'pearl' anywhere in the body so the focus of your qi is in specific points within your own body - it's hard to explain, but the way he moved and utilized application was just odd - things like feinting a jab and applying an arm lock somehow (like I said, it's hard to explain). He also informed me of how to place consciousness - placing consciousness internally for developing power and for nei gong and placing consciousness externally to emit qi (for whatever reason) and issuing power onto/into an opponent. I may be missing a few concepts as I only had two sessions and it was almost a year ago.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

July 02, 2018, 02:38:00 AM
Reply #18

windwalker

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Just wanted to thank the posters for an interesting read on a topic
that I've experienced while in China. 

The theories put forth were quite interesting backing
up many of the things  we did there, but not explained as deeply.

The focus was on the practice itself,
kong jin, part of the over all practice not the main point of the practice.


July 02, 2018, 07:29:38 AM
Reply #19

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Just wanted to thank the posters for an interesting read on a topic
that I've experienced while in China. 

The theories put forth were quite interesting backing
up many of the things  we did there, but not explained as deeply.

The focus was on the practice itself,
kong jin, part of the over all practice not the main point of the practice.

Cool :). Might be interesting to hear about your experiences, if you are willing to share :).

July 02, 2018, 12:55:17 PM
Reply #20

windwalker

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If the average person walked into Min's class and demanded a sample of empty force, he would be refused - not because empty force is a secret, but because without training and chi development that person could be seriously injured. If Min only used enough of her own chi for him to feel the effects, he might have a headache, become dizzy, turn pale, or lose consciousness. Any less and her chi would merely pass through his body unfelt. Yet in a fight, the result could be tremendous. For these reasons, only students who have developed their own chi strength can experience the empty force.


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I found this quite interesting as it described what my teacher had also said when I once asked him about it.
In his words he said " If I don't use enough they won't feel it. If I use to much they will be injured before they feel it.
So normally unless I know the person I dont use it directly"

We would feel sick, like throwing up frequently after demos used in his teaching process ,,,something I asked him about he said he could stop the qi or cause it to run back wards...most didn't want to be demoed on for that reason.  A little surprised to read about it with a little more in depth perspective of it.

My Chinese language skills were not too good,  even so his method of instruction was by doing and feeling.  In his early 80s at the time I would met him. I would become his student visiting him and his group in Beijing for over the next 10yrs in training...

« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:25:27 PM by windwalker »