Author Topic: The OEC  (Read 18300 times)

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November 22, 2013, 05:37:14 PM
Reply #30

Mind_Bender

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Rayn, usually when somone wants something to die they ignore it, seek quicker destruction, or simply forget about its existence, unless they are going on a morbid joyride through hate and ecstatic death trances. I didn't read your posts lately, so maybe I shouldn't comment, but when you say you say you want something to die... than let it die, preferrably in peace. Otherwise, you are supporting it's life, why you are here, and some reason wished this internet library of yours failure. Kind of nihilistic.

Koujiryuu, for some reason I have an internal dissonence with banning people. I have never witnessed any student get band from the dojo I studied in even if they seem to have deserved it. I have come across tough guys, bad mouths, big mouths and disruprive, loud and purposely stubborn children, but they usually leave, are shunned by the other students or are Sensei's target for disciplinary philiosophy (which is a result of the students own actions)... which in turn makes them leave or (usually) having the parent sign the child out of class because they understand the dojo is a place of learning and kinship not disruption and attention seeking.

When you attain experience through time and a solid ranking system (tests... oh, the tests) and are part of a cohesive whole, especially in a combat oriented school, and a disruptive and attention seeking person joins and, well, disrupts and seeks attention they have two options- play nice and by the Dojo Etiquette or leave.

Think about this way, when a new member comes in trying to prove themselves in a sparring situation, let's say they have prior experience, and hurts a fellow classmate on purpose but unnoticible to anyone else but the one getting hit, and does so to the rest of less skilled, making them feel superior. They haven't gotten to the senior belts, sempais (teacher's aid), nor the Sensei himself. At this point in time (that day or the next week) when the braggart tough guy duels a senior belt (usully just before first black belt rank) what he tries on the younger and less skilled students isn't as easy - he is actually challenged in skill and knows it. This is his turning point- show a gesture of genuine humbleness yet with equal fierce determination to master himself and his art, or, admit it was a challenge yet still have the 'determination' to beat the sempai's (usually black belts, not always- but none the less Sensei's guinie pigs, punching bags and ragdolls) and when they face one- especially an experienced black belt- there isn't much a chance.

If Sensei notices this braggart and doesn't ask them to straighten up or leave, the new 'student' may be asked to be Sensei's uke (demonstration partner) and gets to know what it feels like to train with a Master of his craft. Every weapon is countered, blocked or evaded and any minute sense of imbalance is taken advantage of even if the uke has no awareness of it. This is precisely the role of Sensei, sempai and senior students- to pinpoint every flaw of movement and focus to exploit it to be challenged and subdued or accepted as an inherent weakness (genetic disease) or injury, at which point other weakness are strengthened and thus balanced with what is already strong so one can excel and if the possibility of recovery presents itself down the line, even better.

As Sensei's uke or sparring partner, no matter what (at least in our school), you were always only ever challenged to what you can handle. This means, basically, the Sensei and certain sempai are in complete control of the situation, and if you come in too close you are either obviously, though gently, struck in a vital area or entangled and/or dropped. This may also be a turning point toward humbleness or ego shattering, at which point they become part of the family or leave.

You just don't get that kind of feedback online so your wild claims are always wild, and your brash attitude is never directly impacted by a solid group of experienced and like minded practitioners so your only change is subjective and impersonal. A live group gives you personalities and chemistry, a forum gives you knowledge and possibilities, but unless those possibilities are reanimated in the external and social webs they are mere fantasy.

Writing all of that, I know banning and excommunication serve a very good purpose, as there are people and organizations I no longer affiliate with because the are genuinely bad for me, the people I love, and legions of ignorant people that continue to be blinded and blind others. But what good is banning someone on the internet when a new account is easily accessable and they continue their tyranny or idiocy under a different guise?
 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 05:42:46 PM by Mind_Bender »
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 22, 2013, 05:55:46 PM
Reply #31

Mind_Bender

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Okay, I submit to that, but I was pointing at you and Akenu arguing and going off topic... so your comment comes off as self-destructive.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 22, 2013, 05:58:55 PM
Reply #32

Koujiryuu

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I genuinely appreciate your stories about your experience in the dojo, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. I may have FAR less experience than you in traditional MA but I've been to enough classes to know this is the way it works; not just in terms of respect, but because I'm a candid and attentive observer, so for example I've seen exactly what you're talking about at my Wing Chun class when one of the instructors (the highest ranked guy there) was doing high level stuff with a student. That kind of thing isn't possible without respect and discipline.

Unfortunately, and no offense, I'm not sure how relevant that discussion is here, though it would make for interesting discussion on the MA/BEA forums. We're getting sidetracked. Also, not everyone on these forums is a martial artist or has ever been to a martial arts class, so I think what we're elaborating on might be lost on a lot of the members reading. So, I'm not going to comment on it more than that.

What I will comment on, however, is the questions you seem to be asking me:

Quote
Koujiryuu, for some reason I have an internal dissonence with banning people. I have never witnessed any student get band from the dojo I studied in even if they seem to have deserved it. I have come across tough guys, bad mouths, big mouths and disruprive, loud and purposely stubborn children, but they usually leave, are shunned by the other students or are Sensei's target for disciplinary philiosophy (which is a result of the students own actions)... which in turn makes them leave or (usually) having the parent sign the child out of class because they understand the dojo is a place of learning and kinship not disruption and attention seeking.

Banning someone on the internet != banning someone in real life. (Is not equal to)

It doesn't surprise me that you HAVEN'T seen someone banned in real life, because in general, in real life people don't act like anonymous assholes and hide behind their screen names like cowards. Pretty simple logic. Also, anyone with half a brain isn't going to walk into a class where they are supposed to be LEARNING and then claim to know it all and proceed to berate, argue and try and demonstrate why they (the one with no experience) is right and the Sensei, Sifu or Guru (the one with many years of experience) is wrong. I mean, who does that? Yet, on the internet, and on these forums we have that constantly.

Quote
You just don't get that kind of feedback online so your wild claims are always wild, and your brash attitude is never directly impacted by a solid group of experienced and like minded practitioners so your only change is subjective and impersonal. A live group gives you personalities and chemistry, a forum gives you knowledge and possibilities, but unless those possibilities are reanimated in the external and social webs they are mere fantasy.

Writing all of that, I know banning and excommunication serve a very good purpose, as there are people and organizations I no longer affiliate with because the are genuinely bad for me, the people I love, and legions of ignorant people that continue to be blinded and blind others. But what good is banning someone on the internet when a new account is easily accessable and they continue their tyranny or idiocy under a different guise?

This is the only reason why I would advocate banning someone: when they are toxic to the rest of the forums, when they anger and frustrate users, when they are hostile and argumentative constantly, and when they can never admit they're wrong.

Trust me. I'm a normal guy. I don't claim to be anything great. I am nobody special. I am, in actuality, very lax when it comes to enforcing the rules here or moderating at all. I don't remember the last time I even had to warn anybody, and I don't edit other users posts. For all intents and purposes, I go with the flow (I'm Daoist after all) and I'm hands off. However, when I see particular users that are a constant problem, I feel something has to be done about it.

Anyone here who remembers Darkduck would remember he banned people constantly, even if he just didn't like them. I don't do that. I'd like to think I'm better than that, and that the community is better than that. Unfortunately, though, there are some here who constantly push my buttons and push the limits of what is acceptable. I don't think we should have to tolerate that.

I hope this makes sense and clears it up for you. Basically, banning on the internet is a common occurrence and an easy way to get rid of a problem. Other forums do it. We have the same kinds of hostile users here, yet we don't do anything about it. This doesn't make sense to me. And by the way, there are PLENTY of ways to permanently ban someone so they can't come back under a different IP. Trust me, I'm an IT guy- so is kobok, and he's even better at it than me. If we wanted someone gone, they would be gone.
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November 22, 2013, 06:06:32 PM
Reply #33

Mind_Bender

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I'm not a computer guy, so that knowledge changes the situation, now doesn't it?  :)

Sorry if I went off topic, I was just trying to get to the points you quoted... good job, I appreciate that. :P
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 22, 2013, 06:43:25 PM
Reply #34

Koujiryuu

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Yeah, no problem, you didn't really go that far off topic and what you said DID add to the conversation.

Again. If some of the people on these forums went to a real school or group (martial arts or not) and acted the way they do here, they would be either 1) laughed at or 2) shunned.

This site exists for a reason, and a lot of learning and candid discussion takes place here. This is why Veritas has survived and will continue to survive where other sites in the OEC fail. I think this site does a lot of good and helps a lot of people. However, it still has it's problems, and 95% of those problems have to deal with drama between people... and especially drama and arguing from a small percentage of users, whose reason for being here escapes me.
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November 22, 2013, 09:44:52 PM
Reply #35

Mind_Bender

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The Veritas articles, particularly on Psi, are the best and make the most sense to me, the conversations are usually informative and intriguing and questions get answered quickly and kindly by the community as a whole. Few sites also have such a wide variety of subjects with a good amount of intelligent and skilled people that offer so much regarding advice, conversation and even dead posts and articles by old members (or usernames) that fill the mind with ponderings and soul with drive.

Other forums I have joined and a few I troll (not sure if that's the right word- read without engaging or signing up) may be good for their paradigm, but thay are still too narrow for my tastes. The members here also seem much more grounded than other metaphysical sites which is nice because it keeps the escapist aspect of metaphysics to a minimum (unless of course all you do is sit online and chat about the supernatural and your witch blood).

The diversity between Eastern and Western occult teachings admixtured with critical thinking also gives this forum a nice edge. Critical thinking often lacks in these communities. A good balance between faith, reason and experiment.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 23, 2013, 12:28:17 AM
Reply #36

Mind_Bender

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Thank you.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 23, 2013, 06:19:49 AM
Reply #37

Akenu

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Okay, I submit to that, but I was pointing at you and Akenu arguing and going off topic... so your comment comes off as self-destructive.

Off-topic, really? Mind Bender, I believe we are still in the Cafeteria :-P

November 23, 2013, 02:20:06 PM
Reply #38

Mars

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The OEC...
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

November 23, 2013, 06:39:17 PM
Reply #39

Mind_Bender

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^^^What Mars said.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 25, 2013, 04:33:00 AM
Reply #40

Akenu

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The OEC...

^^^What Mars said.

Here is a description of Cafeteria:
Quote
Abandon all sanity ye who enter herein! In this place you can let your weirdness ranting selves take over, but remember not to let it get out of control.
.
If you wanted a serious and formal discussion, I would go for a Main Hall.

November 25, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
Reply #41

Mars

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The OEC...

^^^What Mars said.

Here is a description of Cafeteria:
Quote
Abandon all sanity ye who enter herein! In this place you can let your weirdness ranting selves take over, but remember not to let it get out of control.
.
If you wanted a serious and formal discussion, I would go for a Main Hall.


My post was just random trolling :P
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

November 25, 2013, 06:30:28 AM
Reply #42

Akenu

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@Mars: Karma+ for that :D, you got me as well :).

December 15, 2013, 07:17:15 AM
Reply #43

Aion Nihilos

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Firstly, I've ennjoyed reading all the replies everyone made, thanks for sharing!

Here's my thoughts on the subject. I've encountered some fairly interesting people in the past ~10 years, most of them loosely connected to the OEC. These sort of things have convinced me that magic has far more hold on/effect in the physical world than even most mages are aware of. Certainly, I don't even fully comprehend how intertwined spiritual and physical are. But here's the thing: fluffiness/lying/whatever is only a problem in communities where leaders and members in good standing are incapable of scanning/sensing for themselves, and having the confidence to know when someone is lying. Its' not that hard to have that level of skill; I've met people who could discern incredible things about people; compared to that, basic energy sensing is enough to be able to immediately tell whether someone making big claims is somebody or not. Also, here's a hint: If someone is bragging, they probably are either totally fake, or they have some skill and think they've reached the pinnacle of existence. Or they could be insane; I'm sure we all know at least one mage who has gone thoroughly and totally insane :)

Anyway; from what I've seen, the best communities have spawned and lived in IRC, probably because IRC is a more live environment than a forum. Whatever the case may be, that's how its' panned out. However, in the past 3 or so years, basically all of the IRC based magic communities have died, with nothing to replace them. I've seen where the members have gone in some instances, and the reasons are interesting: at least in a few cases, the dissolution of the communities has been because the creators/longstanding members moved to even more private areas over the Net, or in some cases, offline entirely. It's not really my business where they've gone, that's just an intriguing thing to observe.

But here's my concern. I wasn't originally introduced to magic through the Internet, but a good chunk of practitioners were. What my fear is, is that without some sort of active online presence, we will see two things come about: first, a gradual reduction in practitioners of magic, especially in the Western world. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; refinement is good. However, for every ~100 or so casual practitioners, people who lurk forums, fakes, whatever, there's perhaps one, maybe two people who have potential, time, whatever, to become something approaching what a full-fledged mage should be. (Disclaimer: I'm nothing approaching that status, especially not now. I just know enough to distinguish one from another. Please don't interpret my statements as arrogant "master race"-type bullshitting). And of course, with less of the common "mages", there will in turn be less people rising higher spiritually. THAT is what concerns me.
The second thing that will most likely come about is a corruption of the information base on which magical practice at the beginner level is based; and perhaps extending to niches as well. A good example of that sort of corruption is the drastic amount of misinformation about runic magic that has been pervasive since the 70's due to a void of talented rune mages. Obviously, the more moderate to advanced level magical knowledge isn't usually written down; its' up to the individual to discover independently. But to even get to that level one must learn basics from somewhere. Even now, there's an alarming number of people who have been practicing for years and still lack basic understanding of principles such as the structure of the energy body; the extent of non-physical beings and their effect on "our" world, etc.

So what I don't want to see is those things come to pass. I don't really have an answer for it, unfortunately, nor is this post really anything but my rambling observations. Feel free to respond or ignore as you see fit.

December 15, 2013, 02:09:58 PM
Reply #44

Mind_Bender

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I agree, there is no need for an online community of mages/yogis/psions, etc, honestly, it's much better in person because we can back up our claims and know who is all talk much quicker than online. Misinformation online is quite readily available and believed, whereas in person to person contact misinformation is easily spotted and discarded, and those that preach it are quickly turned away (although, sad to say, there are a lot of charlatans in the real world, but not as many as online). I also started my metaphysical practice long before I even knew what a forum was!
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."