Author Topic: The Divine Science Probationer Enrollment now open (August 5, 2013)  (Read 35821 times)

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October 16, 2015, 02:43:46 PM
Reply #195

Rodz

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._. What did I just say about shooting yourself in the foot Friendship?

Perhaps you could clarify, I'm not always able to follow your form of reasoning.

And Ramose and Veos have repeatedly admitted that they have made mistakes. That's part of why this was such a helpful ordeal: it showed them what these were in a very explicit and dramatic manner, allowing for swift correction, and it was a very opportune time for this situation to arise, as we just opened enrollment for the new Probationer class today, so in the days leading up to it they were able to further refine and resolve the kinks that have led to this kind of thing. You just haven't seen their admissions because you are no longer connected to the outlets that would have allowed you to.

He means you're making the school and yourself look bad with the spiritual elitism that shows in your messages. Ironic I have to spell this out for you considering what you're degree is in.

I'm okay with looking bad in this situation  ;) The same statement seen by various people is going to be interpreted different ways. Your interpretation isn't really a surprise.

My degree has nothing to do with this, and I don't appreciate the personal attack. I'm used to read well-organized, thought out, rational arguments, which most of this is not, so maybe my degree has some bearing there. Thank you for stepping it down for me.

Speaking of "spelling"  things out, it's "your degree", not "you're", if that's where you want to go with this...

Corrected it before you posted. Look at the edit time. I am
Typing this from my phone and we know how autocorrect can be.

You're ok with looking bad in this situation? You realize you're justifying your elitism yes? Pretty much what the cult video outlined. Also again, with your degree you should have taken the time to carefully read every post as you have stated before you haven't taken the time to because it's a waste of your time.

Forgot to add that there has been a lot of evidence presented here. Many others have seen that. Pics provided with conversations and I myself will even offer audio.

October 16, 2015, 02:49:34 PM
Reply #196

Trillis

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Everything below are excerpts from Cultwatch.com. Personal insertions are inside brackets.
----------
Here are some example of what Cultwatch believes represents mind control and cult warning signs:


-Single charismatic leader.
-People always seeming constantly happy and enthusiastic. Especially if you discover that they have been told to act that way for the potential new recruits.
-Instant friends.
-If you are told who you can or cannot talk to or associate with.
-They hide what they teach.
-Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
-Hyped meetings, get you to meetings rather than share with you.
-Experiential rather than logical.
-Asking for money for the next level.
-They will push you to obey by using guilt. They will demand complete “submission” to the group, its leaders and its teachings. They will do this by making you feel absolutely rotten about yourself. They will ridicule you and attack any weakness you might have (or invent weaknesses you might have if they can’t find any). Their goal is to break your will by causing you mental anguish.

Deception:

A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like. You will hear how they help the poor, or support research, or peace, or the environment. They will tell you how happy you will be in their group (and everyone in the cult will always seem very happy and enthusiastic, mainly because they have been told to act happy and will get in trouble if they don’t). But you will not be told what life is really like in the group, nor what they really believe. These things will be introduced to you slowly, one at a time, so you will not notice the gradual change, until eventually you are practicing and believing things which at the start would have caused you to run a mile.

Exclusivity
The cult leaders need to make you believe that there is no where else you can go and still be saved, and if you ever leave the “one true church[temple, order, etc..]” then you are going to "hell". This is a fear based control mechanism designed to keep you in the cult. It also gives the cult leaders tremendous power over you. If you really believe that leaving the group equals leaving God (or means you are leaving your only chance to succeed in life), then you will obey the cult leaders even when you disagree with them instead of risking being kicked out of the group. Exclusivity is used as a threat, it controls your behavior through fear.
Note:Be very suspicious of any group that claims to be better than all the others. A religious group may say that other groups following the same religion are OK, but they are the ones who have a better grasp of the truth and they are superior to the rest. This is often just a subtle version of exclusivism. [Prominently used in TDS]

Love Bombing and Relationship Control
Cults know that if they can control your relationships then they can control you. Whether we like it or not we are all profoundly affected by those around us. When you first go to a cult they will practice “love bombing”, where they arrange instant friends for you. It will seem wonderful, how could such a loving group be wrong! But you soon learn that if you ever disagree with them, or ever leave the cult then you will lose all your new “friends”. This unspoken threat influences your actions in the cult. Things that normally would have made you complain will pass by silently because you don’t want to be ostracized. Like in an unhealthy relationship love is turned on and off to control.

Cults also try to cut you off from your friends and family because they hate others being able to influence you. A mind control cult will seek to manoeuvre your life so as to maximize your contact with cult members and minimize your contact with people outside the group, especially those who oppose your involvement.

Reporting Structure

In a mind control cult like in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia you must be careful of what you say and do; “The walls have ears”. Everyone is encouraged to watch out for “struggling” brothers and sisters and report what they see to leadership. Often information given in deepest confidence is automatically reported to leadership. Cult leaders will then use this information to convince their members that they have a supernatural link [frequently used in TDS], the trusting member does not suspect the very natural mechanism behind the supernatural revelations they are given.

People in a mind control cult will also hide their true thoughts and feelings, and instead wear a mask which presents them as a perfect cult member. This mask is a defense against being reported to leadership and being punished for not measuring up (cult members never feel like they measure up to the cult’s ideals, and yet often believe the other members around them do, when in reality the others feel the same as them). Hence cult members are trained not only to deceive outsiders, but also to deceive their fellow cult members. Rarely can close friendships form in cults, and if they do the cult’s leaders may see them as a threat and move those people away from each other. Nothing is allowed that can be more powerful than the cult members’ allegiance to the group and it’s leaders.

----
http://www.cultwatch.com/






October 16, 2015, 02:54:15 PM
Reply #197

FriendshipIsMagick

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._. What did I just say about shooting yourself in the foot Friendship?

Perhaps you could clarify, I'm not always able to follow your form of reasoning.

And Ramose and Veos have repeatedly admitted that they have made mistakes. That's part of why this was such a helpful ordeal: it showed them what these were in a very explicit and dramatic manner, allowing for swift correction, and it was a very opportune time for this situation to arise, as we just opened enrollment for the new Probationer class today, so in the days leading up to it they were able to further refine and resolve the kinks that have led to this kind of thing. You just haven't seen their admissions because you are no longer connected to the outlets that would have allowed you to.

He means you're making the school and yourself look bad with the spiritual elitism that shows in your messages. Ironic I have to spell this out for you considering what you're degree is in.

I'm okay with looking bad in this situation  ;) The same statement seen by various people is going to be interpreted different ways. Your interpretation isn't really a surprise.

My degree has nothing to do with this, and I don't appreciate the personal attack. I'm used to read well-organized, thought out, rational arguments, which most of this is not, so maybe my degree has some bearing there. Thank you for stepping it down for me.

Speaking of "spelling"  things out, it's "your degree", not "you're", if that's where you want to go with this...

Corrected it before you posted. Look at the edit time. I am
Typing this from my phone and we know how autocorrect can be.

You're ok with looking bad in this situation? You realize you're justifying your elitism yes? Pretty much what the cult video outlined. Also again, with your degree you should have taken the time to carefully read every post as you have stated before you haven't taken the time to because it's a waste of your time.

Forgot to add that there has been a lot of evidence presented here. Many others have seen that. Pics provided with conversations and I myself will even offer audio.

I'm okay looking bad, period. I'm concerned with what a very small group of people think of me, and you are not one of them. Magick, particularly Orders with true initiation,  is inherently a path of elitism. Think about it for a little. This does not mean one should be without compassion or have a sense of self-importance or superiority over other people. Regardless of your interpretation, it was not my intention to express that attitude.

I wish I had time to deconstruct that cult video for everyone, especially given my field, but I can't. 
I do suggest, however, viewing it again through this lens: take away the sarcasm and sardonic tone of the video then pretend that they aren't talking about cults, but instead about most religions, say Buddhism. Then see how cultish it sounds. The difference between most cults and religions is merely a matter of the numbers of adherents.

Yes, I'm going to graduate school to meticulously comb through convoluted message board posts.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 03:00:48 PM by FriendshipIsMagick »

October 16, 2015, 02:58:19 PM
Reply #198

Sweetheart

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Sweetheart, I don't think he said that. He said that the practices were predominantly Yang, which is going to cause excessive heat issues. And he said that TDS doens't give any good Yin techniques to ground it. It sounds like you misread what he said, just like how Ramose misread or misunderstood what (from his post on the TDS website about this forum) People's Champion said.
You people seem to refuse to listen as to what is being said.

I know what he said, and I just replied saying that if he is claiming that he has low pulses, that is more indicative of a yang deficiency which is what is cold "empty cold". Cold sounds a lot like the opposite of excess heat, doesn't it?

October 16, 2015, 02:59:26 PM
Reply #199

FriendshipIsMagick

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Everything below are excerpts from Cultwatch.com. Personal insertions are inside brackets.
----------
Here are some example of what Cultwatch believes represents mind control and cult warning signs:


-Single charismatic leader.
-People always seeming constantly happy and enthusiastic. Especially if you discover that they have been told to act that way for the potential new recruits.
-Instant friends.
-If you are told who you can or cannot talk to or associate with.
-They hide what they teach.
-Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
-Hyped meetings, get you to meetings rather than share with you.
-Experiential rather than logical.
-Asking for money for the next level.
-They will push you to obey by using guilt. They will demand complete “submission” to the group, its leaders and its teachings. They will do this by making you feel absolutely rotten about yourself. They will ridicule you and attack any weakness you might have (or invent weaknesses you might have if they can’t find any). Their goal is to break your will by causing you mental anguish.

Deception:

A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like. You will hear how they help the poor, or support research, or peace, or the environment. They will tell you how happy you will be in their group (and everyone in the cult will always seem very happy and enthusiastic, mainly because they have been told to act happy and will get in trouble if they don’t). But you will not be told what life is really like in the group, nor what they really believe. These things will be introduced to you slowly, one at a time, so you will not notice the gradual change, until eventually you are practicing and believing things which at the start would have caused you to run a mile.

Exclusivity
The cult leaders need to make you believe that there is no where else you can go and still be saved, and if you ever leave the “one true church[temple, order, etc..]” then you are going to "hell". This is a fear based control mechanism designed to keep you in the cult. It also gives the cult leaders tremendous power over you. If you really believe that leaving the group equals leaving God (or means you are leaving your only chance to succeed in life), then you will obey the cult leaders even when you disagree with them instead of risking being kicked out of the group. Exclusivity is used as a threat, it controls your behavior through fear.
Note:Be very suspicious of any group that claims to be better than all the others. A religious group may say that other groups following the same religion are OK, but they are the ones who have a better grasp of the truth and they are superior to the rest. This is often just a subtle version of exclusivism. [Prominently used in TDS]

Love Bombing and Relationship Control
Cults know that if they can control your relationships then they can control you. Whether we like it or not we are all profoundly affected by those around us. When you first go to a cult they will practice “love bombing”, where they arrange instant friends for you. It will seem wonderful, how could such a loving group be wrong! But you soon learn that if you ever disagree with them, or ever leave the cult then you will lose all your new “friends”. This unspoken threat influences your actions in the cult. Things that normally would have made you complain will pass by silently because you don’t want to be ostracized. Like in an unhealthy relationship love is turned on and off to control.

Cults also try to cut you off from your friends and family because they hate others being able to influence you. A mind control cult will seek to manoeuvre your life so as to maximize your contact with cult members and minimize your contact with people outside the group, especially those who oppose your involvement.

Reporting Structure

In a mind control cult like in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia you must be careful of what you say and do; “The walls have ears”. Everyone is encouraged to watch out for “struggling” brothers and sisters and report what they see to leadership. Often information given in deepest confidence is automatically reported to leadership. Cult leaders will then use this information to convince their members that they have a supernatural link [frequently used in TDS], the trusting member does not suspect the very natural mechanism behind the supernatural revelations they are given.

People in a mind control cult will also hide their true thoughts and feelings, and instead wear a mask which presents them as a perfect cult member. This mask is a defense against being reported to leadership and being punished for not measuring up (cult members never feel like they measure up to the cult’s ideals, and yet often believe the other members around them do, when in reality the others feel the same as them). Hence cult members are trained not only to deceive outsiders, but also to deceive their fellow cult members. Rarely can close friendships form in cults, and if they do the cult’s leaders may see them as a threat and move those people away from each other. Nothing is allowed that can be more powerful than the cult members’ allegiance to the group and it’s leaders.

----
http://www.cultwatch.com/

Most of this, when applied to TDS, is absurd to the point of being comical. What does apply, however, is common to many, if not most, spiritual traditions (connection to a supernatural source, for example). Copy and pasting the signs of a cult from a website is not a valid argument. Instead, it would be helpful if you showed how each of those signs is expressed in TDS with specific examples. I think you would be hard-pressed to do this.

October 16, 2015, 03:02:54 PM
Reply #200

Rodz

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._. What did I just say about shooting yourself in the foot Friendship?

Perhaps you could clarify, I'm not always able to follow your form of reasoning.

And Ramose and Veos have repeatedly admitted that they have made mistakes. That's part of why this was such a helpful ordeal: it showed them what these were in a very explicit and dramatic manner, allowing for swift correction, and it was a very opportune time for this situation to arise, as we just opened enrollment for the new Probationer class today, so in the days leading up to it they were able to further refine and resolve the kinks that have led to this kind of thing. You just haven't seen their admissions because you are no longer connected to the outlets that would have allowed you to.

He means you're making the school and yourself look bad with the spiritual elitism that shows in your messages. Ironic I have to spell this out for you considering what you're degree is in.

I'm okay with looking bad in this situation  ;) The same statement seen by various people is going to be interpreted different ways. Your interpretation isn't really a surprise.

My degree has nothing to do with this, and I don't appreciate the personal attack. I'm used to read well-organized, thought out, rational arguments, which most of this is not, so maybe my degree has some bearing there. Thank you for stepping it down for me.

Speaking of "spelling"  things out, it's "your degree", not "you're", if that's where you want to go with this...

Corrected it before you posted. Look at the edit time. I am
Typing this from my phone and we know how autocorrect can be.

You're ok with looking bad in this situation? You realize you're justifying your elitism yes? Pretty much what the cult video outlined. Also again, with your degree you should have taken the time to carefully read every post as you have stated before you haven't taken the time to because it's a waste of your time.

Forgot to add that there has been a lot of evidence presented here. Many others have seen that. Pics provided with conversations and I myself will even offer audio.

I'm okay looking bad, period. I'm concerned with what a very small group of people think of me, and you are not one of them. Magick, particularly Orders with true initiation,  is inherently a path of elitism. Think about it for a little. This does not mean one should be without compassion or have a sense of self-importance or superiority over other people. Regardless of your interpretation, it was not my intention to express that attitude.

I wish I had time to deconstruct that cult video for everyone, especially given my fieldfield, but I can.
I do suggest, however, viewing it again through this lens: take away the sarcasm and sardonic tone of the video then pretend that they aren't talking about cults, but instead about most religions, say Buddhism. Then see how cultish it sounds. The difference between most cults and religions is merely a matter of the numbers of adherents.

Yes, I'm going to graduate school to meticulously comb through convoluted message board posts.

What I was trying to say was I did expect better of you man. If you're going to argue against something you should take the time to look at it and try to present a counter argument. You instead come off as frustrated and elitist. The latter which you just confirmed. You're showing this also by coming off as the points presented "aren't worthy" to look at when they are valid criticisms.

 Also it isn't me I was worried about as I never cared what you thought of me. I am saying you're looking bad in front of people who are thinking of joining the school and others already in it who have messaged others displaying concerns they are now having with all of this coming to light.

You have to remember too that religions do come off cultish. I can agree with this.

However, we aren't talking about that are we. We are talking about a supposed spiritual school, not a religion.

Also we are happy to provide examples :)!

October 16, 2015, 03:03:26 PM
Reply #201

Sweetheart

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I'm a third year intern in a school of Chinese medicine, giving me formal education on this subject. There is a lot of partial knowledge in this thread concerning the principles of the practice. Ramose and Veos are being blamed for the very thing that is happening on this forum by the person I'm talking about.

Can we trust the words of someone who blames another for a crime that they themselves commit?

Once again, attempting to discredit. I already stated that One of the co founders of dragon rises informed me that the meditations were damaging me and another student, not violating hippa as I learned about this from that student.

And this person again is not a student but one of the co founders of dragon rises. And stated it was actually pushing toxins deeper into the body. Said person actually said no one should be doing those meditations


So you're welcome to discredit as much as you want. At this point it's honestly routine. What's astounding is the adamant refusal to admit to any wrongdoing. Even I made mistakes in the thread and I mentioned it, nothing bad happened to me. Just showed I'm human.

I guess you can trust a co founder of the dragon rises school for his medical advice, but if he is not a mystic and doesn't have enough experience with western hermetic practices, why should you trust his comments on TDS' meditations?

Sweetheart, I don't think anyone can determine the situation without examining the patients, since it is in the past, new opinions would not be easily accepted by anyone.

Right, and I'm not here to assess any patients or give any type of diagnosis. That's now how Chinese medicine works. It was said that Yin deficiency results from the practices, but was also said that the pulses become deep. A deep pulse is not the pulse of Yin deficiency, it's more indicative of Yang deficiency.

I've felt many pulses of students in the school, and there is no commonality that I've found in pulse quality of people who practice the practices. Just recently, a licensed acupuncturist I know commented on how great a TDS students pulses felt.

 If you're the person I think you are, you might've checked my pulse when I was in the school. I remember you specifically stating that I was fine. This probably added to Veos' astrological reading that, now this is a paraphrase, "need to stop pretending I have my brother's issues and stop being lazy."  When I actually did have severe pain in my legs from working every day.  Like students of the school who have medical issues you begin to question if you are even sick since they are obsessed with the power of the mind (which while real is not the extent one can heal like a super hero).  It was only after I started seeing a cofounder of Dragon Rises,  that she and you confirm not only my health issues but what else is wrong with the school's meditations. This alone makes me question your skill as a TCM practitioner if you stated I was fine, which added to Veos' reading, while I have evidence to show otherwise.  People's champion  never said the meditations caused a yin deficiency. I would please advise before you make more criticisms and attacks on character that you please actually read the entirety of the thread as this is getting quite old. Higher authorities? You just tried to do that... And even then, I am talking about people far more skilled than you.

  I also forgot to mention that during my astrological reading with my brother, he suggested that I separate from my brother more.  On top of this he also said that my brother has to stop using his pain as an excuse to not live his life.  and I do have this in recording and you are all welcome to hear it as during the time of the reading he did give me his consent for me to record it and since it is my astrology reading I will be happy to share it with you all to give even more concrete proof of what has been posted on this thread. All all I ask is some time to get to the specific parts of the reading as it is a giant recording.

If this is who I think it is, you haven't even been around the school for me to take your pulses since I began school, and I don't make diagnosis outside of the clinic. I also am not a TCM practitioner, just to be clear.

October 16, 2015, 03:07:55 PM
Reply #202

Rodz

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I'm a third year intern in a school of Chinese medicine, giving me formal education on this subject. There is a lot of partial knowledge in this thread concerning the principles of the practice. Ramose and Veos are being blamed for the very thing that is happening on this forum by the person I'm talking about.

Can we trust the words of someone who blames another for a crime that they themselves commit?

Once again, attempting to discredit. I already stated that One of the co founders of dragon rises informed me that the meditations were damaging me and another student, not violating hippa as I learned about this from that student.

And this person again is not a student but one of the co founders of dragon rises. And stated it was actually pushing toxins deeper into the body. Said person actually said no one should be doing those meditations


So you're welcome to discredit as much as you want. At this point it's honestly routine. What's astounding is the adamant refusal to admit to any wrongdoing. Even I made mistakes in the thread and I mentioned it, nothing bad happened to me. Just showed I'm human.

I guess you can trust a co founder of the dragon rises school for his medical advice, but if he is not a mystic and doesn't have enough experience with western hermetic practices, why should you trust his comments on TDS' meditations?

Sweetheart, I don't think anyone can determine the situation without examining the patients, since it is in the past, new opinions would not be easily accepted by anyone.

Right, and I'm not here to assess any patients or give any type of diagnosis. That's now how Chinese medicine works. It was said that Yin deficiency results from the practices, but was also said that the pulses become deep. A deep pulse is not the pulse of Yin deficiency, it's more indicative of Yang deficiency.

I've felt many pulses of students in the school, and there is no commonality that I've found in pulse quality of people who practice the practices. Just recently, a licensed acupuncturist I know commented on how great a TDS students pulses felt.

 If you're the person I think you are, you might've checked my pulse when I was in the school. I remember you specifically stating that I was fine. This probably added to Veos' astrological reading that, now this is a paraphrase, "need to stop pretending I have my brother's issues and stop being lazy."  When I actually did have severe pain in my legs from working every day.  Like students of the school who have medical issues you begin to question if you are even sick since they are obsessed with the power of the mind (which while real is not the extent one can heal like a super hero).  It was only after I started seeing a cofounder of Dragon Rises,  that she and you confirm not only my health issues but what else is wrong with the school's meditations. This alone makes me question your skill as a TCM practitioner if you stated I was fine, which added to Veos' reading, while I have evidence to show otherwise.  People's champion  never said the meditations caused a yin deficiency. I would please advise before you make more criticisms and attacks on character that you please actually read the entirety of the thread as this is getting quite old. Higher authorities? You just tried to do that... And even then, I am talking about people far more skilled than you.

  I also forgot to mention that during my astrological reading with my brother, he suggested that I separate from my brother more.  On top of this he also said that my brother has to stop using his pain as an excuse to not live his life.  and I do have this in recording and you are all welcome to hear it as during the time of the reading he did give me his consent for me to record it and since it is my astrology reading I will be happy to share it with you all to give even more concrete proof of what has been posted on this thread. All all I ask is some time to get to the specific parts of the reading as it is a giant recording.

If this is who I think it is, you haven't even been around the school for me to take your pulses since I began school, and I don't make diagnosis outside of the clinic. I also am not a TCM practitioner, just to be clear.

Ah ok. My mistake. There was a long time student in the school who did check my pulse and does some acupuncture on me and did some in the temple.  Said student said I seemed alright when I wasn't.

October 16, 2015, 03:10:07 PM
Reply #203

Trowa

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This discussion should be about TDS as a school.  Let's not waste any more energy typing keys to argue over grammar, or over who is more 'elitist'.

If you insist this is what you want to do, move it to PMs.  Otherwise, get back on track.

October 16, 2015, 03:12:26 PM
Reply #204

FriendshipIsMagick

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._. What did I just say about shooting yourself in the foot Friendship?

Perhaps you could clarify, I'm not always able to follow your form of reasoning.

And Ramose and Veos have repeatedly admitted that they have made mistakes. That's part of why this was such a helpful ordeal: it showed them what these were in a very explicit and dramatic manner, allowing for swift correction, and it was a very opportune time for this situation to arise, as we just opened enrollment for the new Probationer class today, so in the days leading up to it they were able to further refine and resolve the kinks that have led to this kind of thing. You just haven't seen their admissions because you are no longer connected to the outlets that would have allowed you to.

He means you're making the school and yourself look bad with the spiritual elitism that shows in your messages. Ironic I have to spell this out for you considering what you're degree is in.

I'm okay with looking bad in this situation  ;) The same statement seen by various people is going to be interpreted different ways. Your interpretation isn't really a surprise.

My degree has nothing to do with this, and I don't appreciate the personal attack. I'm used to read well-organized, thought out, rational arguments, which most of this is not, so maybe my degree has some bearing there. Thank you for stepping it down for me.

Speaking of "spelling"  things out, it's "your degree", not "you're", if that's where you want to go with this...

Corrected it before you posted. Look at the edit time. I am
Typing this from my phone and we know how autocorrect can be.

You're ok with looking bad in this situation? You realize you're justifying your elitism yes? Pretty much what the cult video outlined. Also again, with your degree you should have taken the time to carefully read every post as you have stated before you haven't taken the time to because it's a waste of your time.

Forgot to add that there has been a lot of evidence presented here. Many others have seen that. Pics provided with conversations and I myself will even offer audio.

I'm okay looking bad, period. I'm concerned with what a very small group of people think of me, and you are not one of them. Magick, particularly Orders with true initiation,  is inherently a path of elitism. Think about it for a little. This does not mean one should be without compassion or have a sense of self-importance or superiority over other people. Regardless of your interpretation, it was not my intention to express that attitude.

I wish I had time to deconstruct that cult video for everyone, especially given my fieldfield, but I can.
I do suggest, however, viewing it again through this lens: take away the sarcasm and sardonic tone of the video then pretend that they aren't talking about cults, but instead about most religions, say Buddhism. Then see how cultish it sounds. The difference between most cults and religions is merely a matter of the numbers of adherents.

Yes, I'm going to graduate school to meticulously comb through convoluted message board posts.

What I was trying to say was I did expect better of you man. If you're going to argue against something you should take the time to look at it and try to present a counter argument. You instead come off as frustrated and elitist. The latter which you just confirmed. You're showing this also by coming off as the points presented "aren't worthy" to look at when they are valid criticisms.

 Also it isn't me I was worried about as I never cared what you thought of me. I am saying you're looking bad in front of people who are thinking of joining the school and others already in it who have messaged others displaying concerns they are now having with all of this coming to light.

You have to remember too that religions do come off cultish. I can agree with this.

However, we aren't talking about that are we. We are talking about a supposed spiritual school, not a religion.

Also we are happy to provide examples :)!

And I expected better of you, and the complainants.

I have taken the time to provide valid counter-arguments, which necessitated understanding (to the degree I was capable) the argument I was countering.

I have had no one criticize my defense of the school,  at least to me personally, and I have had several students thank me for doing it.

And as far as discussing the fine points of difference between a "cult", "religion", and "school of spirituality", that is not a conversation that can be had in an expedient or simple fashion.

I am once again bowing out. Thanks for hearing what I have to say.



October 16, 2015, 03:12:53 PM
Reply #205

Rodz

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This discussion should be about TDS as a school.  Let's not waste any more energy typing keys to argue over grammar, or over who is more 'elitist'.

If you insist this is what you want to do, move it to PMs.  Otherwise, get back on track.

My apologies and I shall.

October 16, 2015, 03:18:35 PM
Reply #206

Peoples Champion

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._. What did I just say about shooting yourself in the foot Friendship?

Perhaps you could clarify, I'm not always able to follow your form of reasoning.

And Ramose and Veos have repeatedly admitted that they have made mistakes. That's part of why this was such a helpful ordeal: it showed them what these were in a very explicit and dramatic manner, allowing for swift correction, and it was a very opportune time for this situation to arise, as we just opened enrollment for the new Probationer class today, so in the days leading up to it they were able to further refine and resolve the kinks that have led to this kind of thing. You just haven't seen their admissions because you are no longer connected to the outlets that would have allowed you to.

He means you're making the school and yourself look bad with the spiritual elitism that shows in your messages. Ironic I have to spell this out for you considering what you're degree is in.

I'm okay with looking bad in this situation  ;) The same statement seen by various people is going to be interpreted different ways. Your interpretation isn't really a surprise.

My degree has nothing to do with this, and I don't appreciate the personal attack. I'm used to read well-organized, thought out, rational arguments, which most of this is not, so maybe my degree has some bearing there. Thank you for stepping it down for me.

Speaking of "spelling"  things out, it's "your degree", not "you're", if that's where you want to go with this...


I distinctly recalled mentioning my concerns but again, he just brushed it off because I'm just a lowly student who couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about! I'm not the great "Living Master" as you stated! The brother separation, the standing postures, but again, it's brushed off. After all I'm just a lowly neophyte according to your eyes apparently and others. He never apologized for any of it. I never heard him say "I shouldn't have given those to you." No I'm the one wrong.  :rolleyes:

Perhaps you have to justify it all since they do not treat you well to your face, behind your back, and in general, in the guise of "tough" love. So perhaps you do have to justify it all, see us as low, insult us, maybe it makes you feel better. I don't know, I'm not you, but your reactions so far have not been very rational. They are reactive without sitting back, taking a deep breath and analyzing the concerns.


-Single charismatic leader. In this case 2 but applies.


-People always seeming constantly happy and enthusiastic. Especially if you discover that they have been told to act that way for the potential new recruits.

Applies to show only the best of TDS and how the locals especially should know all the lectures for new people. I remember getting scolded for this, that everyone was told to start really studying the lectures for new people.

-Instant friends.

This is used via the constant use of mentioning of past lives and such to increase exclusivity.

-If you are told who you can or cannot talk to or associate with.
Always have to run a source of information by them first. Not to mention again the constant bashing of other orders... I recall too another member telling a female associate to not talk to one of the teachers who left about TDS even though he honestly isn't doing anything, lol yet they keep blaming him. But I remember this one quite well

-They hide what they teach.
Shouldn't have to say anything on this... it's pretty obvious.

-Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
Since they bash all western orders and criticize them, this should be obvious. They are here to save Western Magic after all.  :rolleyes:

-Hyped meetings, get you to meetings rather than share with you.
Being told that they are akin to "living gods" to get you to meet them as one student put it. Being told as "rumors" which they themselves say being reincarnations of Crowley, Mathers, Chinese hero during the Three Kingdoms Era, Iamblichus, etc.  :rolleyes:

-Experiential rather than logical.
Statements like being told the pain means my body is healing it... yeah that alone shows no logic. -_-

-Asking for money for the next level.
This one is obvious...

-They will push you to obey by using guilt. They will demand complete “submission” to the group, its leaders and its teachings. They will do this by making you feel absolutely rotten about yourself. They will ridicule you and attack any weakness you might have (or invent weaknesses you might have if they can’t find any). Their goal is to break your will by causing you mental anguish.

Oh the guilt trip, they do this like crazy since you have to meditate hours a day and if not you are insulted for it. So yeah this one is dealt like crazy. "We do so much for you! "Why don't you take advantage of knowing your masters who are very young?" Trying to get guilt trip the students by saying "We are taking on so much karma for you and we will suffer unless you all start meditating more to burn off this karmic burden we carry for all of you" "We are so drained caused we used all of our Pnuema on you all." "We got overweight because of all the karma we are taking from you all." "That we are in a high state and we reincarnated just for you until you are all liberated." "All the locals are poor (to guilt us to give more money)" "Go the temple more often, and then you arrive and they don't show up and some students lived a bit far so it isn't cheap to drive that far, not talking about myself but some other ones." Guilting one of the teachers for having a girlfriend despite they themselves have them, but it's ok if their other brother has one. Guilting him for seeing another teacher. Ramose made another student feel guilty for asking about Gurunath


You were right Friendship, the above looking back is certainly comical, but I was the fool who fell for it. Friendship, you know they have said this.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 03:36:57 PM by Peoples Champion »

October 16, 2015, 03:30:01 PM
Reply #207

Ekstatikos

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This discussion should be about TDS as a school.

Originally it was about TDS probationer enrolment, which, incidentally, is now open http://www.thedivinescience.com/probationer-enrollment-open , for anyone who still thinks it's worth the risk  :teethy: lol

Just wanted to say that before I go back to lurking.

Also, at the end of the day, discussion is good, I'm glad everything in this thread is being discussed. Let's keep it civil.

God Bless.
~ Io Daimon Eriounes Theon ~

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" ~ Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis

To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent, and To Liberate

October 16, 2015, 08:27:58 PM
Reply #208

Sweetheart

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If you're the person I think you are, you might've checked my pulse when I was in the school. I remember you specifically stating that I was fine. This probably added to Veos' astrological reading that, now this is a paraphrase, "need to stop pretending I have my brother's issues and stop being lazy."  When I actually did have severe pain in my legs from working every day.  Like students of the school who have medical issues you begin to question if you are even sick since they are obsessed with the power of the mind (which while real is not the extent one can heal like a super hero).  It was only after I started seeing a cofounder of Dragon Rises,  that she and you confirm not only my health issues but what else is wrong with the school's meditations. This alone makes me question your skill as a TCM practitioner if you stated I was fine, which added to Veos' reading, while I have evidence to show otherwise.  People's champion  never said the meditations caused a yin deficiency. I would please advise before you make more criticisms and attacks on character that you please actually read the entirety of the thread as this is getting quite old. Higher authorities? You just tried to do that... And even then, I am talking about people far more skilled than you.

  I also forgot to mention that during my astrological reading with my brother, he suggested that I separate from my brother more.  On top of this he also said that my brother has to stop using his pain as an excuse to not live his life.  and I do have this in recording and you are all welcome to hear it as during the time of the reading he did give me his consent for me to record it and since it is my astrology reading I will be happy to share it with you all to give even more concrete proof of what has been posted on this thread. All all I ask is some time to get to the specific parts of the reading as it is a giant recording.

I'm not here to attack, but to only shed light on the truth.

So the part about this I'm most concerned with is the claim that People's Champ said nothing about a yin deficiency. Well, he did.

In the eight principles of Chinese medicine, there are different types of heat that are diagnostic. When a practitioner uses the term excess heat, they are referring to a type of heat called full heat. This type of heat manifests as boils, green puss, red acne, headaches, and all types of infectious manifestations. Given what I just described, we all know that nobody is experiencing these symptoms from the practices. So what do we have left if not excess heat? You got it, deficient heat, which is another term for yin deficiency. This, again, shows the limited knowledge that these accusations and claims against the school are based on.

I also want to shed some light on the fact that TCM is a standardized system of Chinese medicine that was formulated post-communist China, and, being an atheist country, it's easy to understand how this form of Chinese medicine is devoid of its spiritual roots. Now this isn't to say anything negatively towards the system of medicine, for I highly respect it's methods. I'm only pointing out that a TCM practitioner has no understanding of the Taoist principles that a classically trained practitioner would have. I am aware that in TCM training, the cycle of the Five Elements, and all of their transformations in the human body is lightly touched on in a day of class. TCM practitioners are far removed from their Taoist roots, and have little knowledge of what the Taoist meditative approach is to spiritual evolution and health. How could a practitioner of this system have any authority to say what a practice is or isn't doing?

I also want to say that the said co-founder of Dragon Rises is a great practitioner whom I have much respect for. This practitioner that People's Champ was seeing was at the referral of Ramose and Veos, which invalidates the argument that they selfishly wanted to cure him, and wouldn't send him to another healer. I was present when Ramose and Veos sent **** to this same practitioner, because they thought she could help.

So there you have it. Limited knowledge, and false accusations. Maybe the boys can call it a day on the medicinal aspect of things. I think we've covered it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:08:12 AM by Sweetheart »

October 16, 2015, 08:55:46 PM
Reply #209

Shankara

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Is Sweetheart really ****? Why did you call yourself Sweetheart?

*EDIT*

I was present when Ramose and Veos sent **** to this same practitioner, because they thought she could help.

I guess we're not allowed to use first names anymore. My intention was to point out that Sweetheart is one of the top students in the school and has taught some of the lower classes for about 3 years now. This way, prospective students can see what someone who might be teaching them is like.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 08:31:28 AM by Shankara »