Author Topic: The Divine Science Probationer Enrollment now open (August 5, 2013)  (Read 34430 times)

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October 14, 2015, 08:55:14 AM
Reply #135

Trillis

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Unfortunately, those who have been a part of TDS and those who still are will find striking similarities in this video, unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/EBK5aKOr2Fw?t=38
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 09:06:26 AM by Trillis »

October 14, 2015, 08:58:09 AM
Reply #136

Akenu

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Unfortunately, those who have been a part of TDS and those who still are will find striking similarities in this video, unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/EBK5aKOr2Fw

Well, I would also recommend this movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liqtk_qV0PE

October 14, 2015, 10:01:35 AM
Reply #137

Nectar

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Hahaha, Trillis is so correct. And Akenu- I've seen that movie. It is really as easy as it seems.

I've had similar experiences to Trillis' video. I'm a keen observer. Multiple times during my stay at the temple I noticed I was being watched and that someone was keeping one of the teachers up to date with my status. Of course when I confronted this person he denied everything, angrily. Another time Ramose talked about how he could see the faces of those he knew before from other lives, so when he sees a person he could remember him from a past life. But when I visited for the first time, he had no idea who I was when he said- ''And you are?....'' Of course afterwards when I told him about this, he made some seemingly logical response at that time.
Also, the part about ''claiming authority'' from Trillis' video; these people with delusions of grandeur say some funny stuff, haha. Like how one of the head teachers was King Leonidas of ancient Sparta, lol. They must've watched the movie ''300'' one too many times. Also one of them claimed to be this chinese war hero, and recalled the story of him taking an arrow in the eye, pulling the pierced eyeball out and eating it. Also some other stuff about them coming from ancient Atlantis.

October 14, 2015, 10:02:39 AM
Reply #138

Peoples Champion

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To emphasize to those thinking about joining (not to anyone in the school since honestly, they don't care and that's fine with me) I will also mention this as this was brought to my attention recently. The other problem with the meditations on top of the fact it uses Yang Qi exclusively (or heavenly energy, astral light) is that it is a Shengong Cultivation Technique. The Shen is the Spirit." Yuan Shen is "Original Spirit," meaning the Higher Self. It is also known as Original Spirit/Original Heart too. Which is why the meditations make people feel good, it does work on the heart.

The severe issue though is you never jump ahead like that and I recall earlier in the thread someone mentioned a Buddhist school teach a watered down version of the VOA, because you do not jump ahead like that as it will cause issues. The watered down version I have seen is far gentler and is used until you are ready for something stronger.


The proper order is for Housing the Shen as it is called is the following.

1. Keeping and Protecting The Shen. To sum it up, this means after regulating the Heart’s emotions and the Mind’s intentions an the Shen be watched over, directed, nursed, and kept in its residence (heart).

2. Solidifying the Shen. This occurs when all thoughts and emotions have been regulated, so the heart/mind become steady and calm.

3. Stabilizing and Calming the Shen. This means one’s heart/mind cannot be allowed to attached itself to any outside emotional distractions. Again, only when the hearts emotions and mind’s intentions are in a state of inner peace can the Shen be calmed and stabilized.

4. Concentrating, Refining, Focusing, and Strengthening The Shen.

At this point is when you would then do Shen Cultivation.


The reason being is without following these steps, to make it simple, you will essentially be giving yourself more psychic power without any discipline. Misuse of this would cause the “evil eye” as it is also known to as. I mention this since Magical Equipoise is blatantly ignored a lot, and clearly ignored since you just dive straight into number 4 as part of the probationer course for the meditation they give.


Even the beginner Medical Qigong Practitioners do not do Shen training until later due to the above mentions of the dangers involved. As if you manage to be able to handle the Shen training without it hurting your health, if you never work on your character then essentially you are going to be hurting people, which shows to me how irresponsible TDS is.

I had to mention this as once again, a lineage that claims to be Daoist certainly seems to be making a hell of a lot of errors for claiming this.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:11:12 AM by Peoples Champion »

October 14, 2015, 10:17:35 AM
Reply #139

Trowa

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It pains me to say this.  It pains me because I was gullible for years and didn't realize it.  It pains me because I had good friends that had joined TDS.  It pains me because there are a lot of good techniques that they borrow that have legitimate use.

But after stories shared in PMs, in IRC, on the forums, and information given to me directly from TDS's discussion forums, and added to my own experience...

The Divine Science is a cult.

October 14, 2015, 10:19:46 AM
Reply #140

Ekstatikos

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Unfortunately, those who have been a part of TDS and those who still are will find striking similarities in this video, unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/EBK5aKOr2Fw

Well, I would also recommend this movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liqtk_qV0PE

There seems to be this weird, unspoken implication that all the people who are NOT leaving, who are by far the majority, are somehow mindless brainwashed goons, drunk on the fairy tales of their delusional and charismatic leader, happily following him off a cliff. This simply isn't the case. Even if everyone but the core teachers left TDS I would stay - most people that I know in the school would probably say the same. Why is this? Are we insane, or just idiotic? The simple fact is that it is so because our experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Many, many of us have experienced incredible positive personal transformation, healing of ailments and breaking of addictions, objective progress in magic/mysticism, as well as witnessed or experienced objective magical phenomena directly tied to the school. So we have faith in this school - not blind faith, but faith built on what we have felt in our own hearts and seen with our own eyes.

Well now no longer unspoken. Criticism is great, but this thread has now officially gotten silly. And I don't want to look like I'm just defending TDS against silliness when actually I feel valid concerns have been raised, beyond ermagerd theyrr fat curlt lerders.

If you didn't like TDS I'm glad you got out and I'm glad you've made yourself heard. I wish you the best, and I'm sorry for your misfortunes. I hope things like this will more effectively be avoided in future. I'll leave it to people qualified to respond or not to the valid concerns, technical energy discussions and other specific issues.

I won't feed trolls though, and as Felidae said, this has reached a ridiculous place now, so I'm out, People can make up their own minds, and I've said all I wanted to say. Enjoy and may you all find what you seek.

EDIT: Pay attention. I'm not calling the people with valid grievances trolls. Getting hurt is a valid grievance.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 10:38:44 AM by Ekstatikos »
~ Io Daimon Eriounes Theon ~

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" ~ Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis

To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent, and To Liberate

October 14, 2015, 10:27:42 AM
Reply #141

Peoples Champion

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The following is going to really hurt me as I didn't want to go this personal in my life. This was brought to my attention as this was posted on their site.

"None of these people ever brought up health, malpractice, or any of the other numerous accusations they are now launching at us, at the time that they left. These ideas developed long after they left as an afterthought, and likely out of anger, to justify their actions in their minds. Two of the ex-teachers, who are using this position to get more authority in their criticism, had barely been around us for over two years."


Ok, if they are going to lie, I'll post proof. TDS old site was deleted but it's ok. This is really embarrassing for me but the truth has to be exposed and I don't care about how I look.



If anyone wants to know, I was in a mental hospital for being suicidal due to the severe pain I was in (which will happen to those who suffer from severe pain), must I suffer further humiliation and get my medical records of that showing the truth?  :redface:



So there, my vices, nightmares from PTSD from the trauma I had, mods please do not delete the attachments, as embarrassing as this is, the truth has to be known. The date is 2010, they've known for years. Is this really the work of a troll?


I'll repost the link when imgur is working as I forgot to edit out the emails as I reacted rashly as being told about that really hurt me, and Nectar has told them before too. http://imgur.com/a/dTINE is the link with the emails removed.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 03:58:38 PM by Peoples Champion »

October 14, 2015, 10:37:18 AM
Reply #142

Rodz

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The following is going to really hurt me as I didn't want to go this personal in my life. This was brought to my attention as this was posted on their site.

None of these people ever brought up health, malpractice, or any of the other numerous accusations they are now launching at us, at the time that they left. These ideas developed long after they left as an afterthought, and likely out of anger, to justify their actions in their minds. Two of the ex-teachers, who are using this position to get more authority in their criticism, had barely been around us for over two years.


Ok, if they are going to lie, I'll post proof. TDS old site was deleted but it's ok. This is really embarrassing for me but the truth has to be exposed and I don't care about how I look.



If anyone wants to know, I was in a mental hospital for being suicidal due to the severe pain I was in (which will happen to those who suffer from severe pain), must I suffer further humiliation and get my medical records of that showing the truth?  :redface:



So there, my vices, nightmares from PTSD from the trauma I had, mods please do not delete the attachments, as embarrassing as this is, the truth has to be known. The date is 2010, they've known for years. Is this really the work of a troll?


If anything thinks this contradicts my brother's mental health condition of late. It is sound and as he said he will gladly provide proof of this. Before anyone wants to attempt to discredit him again as it seems to be a popular tactic. The PTSD was from how he obtained the injury, not from war, but from the training he went through via Infantry as he did have an airborne ranger contract and to quote the surgeon (his muscles were crushing his nerves, surgeon said he never had seen a leg anatomy like my brothers)



So there you have it folks. Veos and Ramose lying about what they said. This isn't the first time as well.

October 14, 2015, 11:06:43 AM
Reply #143

Akenu

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@Ekstatikos: No one is calling anyone brainwashed goons. I personally am not to decide whether TDS is cult or not, but if TDS really is a cult, it still doesn't mean that its followers are goons. There were many cults in history with followers all over the scope. Whether someone is a brick layerer or lawyer doesn't prevent him from getting lost and every lost lamb needs a shepherd. I also have many friends in TDS so I might seem to be more concerned, after all, we also used to be friends. You also know I used to look up to both of Ramose and Veos so you can also understand the bitterness in my voice.

But one thing I have to admi, to give a credit where credit is due. Whether TDS is a cult or not, both Prophecy and Veos live according their True Will. Only question is whether it isn't on the expense of their followers

October 14, 2015, 11:19:48 AM
Reply #144

Peoples Champion

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This is the post I was talking about. As you are seeing above, I am telling the truth. I also forgot to mention as once again he doesn't know what he is talking about. The acupuncturist he is talking about actually stated the meditations are harming me, she told me to stop. So once again, they are lying. The posts I have referenced in regards to energy showing the international medical qigong school is much more verifiable then again their own idea of how it works since I know how much they love to hear themselves talk. Sorry for the last part coming snarky but honestly so far everything we are saying is coming to light.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:28:28 AM by Peoples Champion »

October 14, 2015, 12:04:38 PM
Reply #145

Trowa

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Hmm.  Another instance of the "US vs THEM" referenced in Trillis's linked video.  Are we really nothing more than a slanderous tabloid for having legitimate concerns?  Is the TDS cult not above criticism?  Instead of brushing us off, can he not address the questions at hand?

Hmm.

October 14, 2015, 12:18:26 PM
Reply #146

WailOfSumer

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And in this case flat out lying. Nowhere in this thread did The Peoples Champion say that the exercises drained yin, only that they were overwhelmingly yang.  :headwall:

October 14, 2015, 12:51:20 PM
Reply #147

Shankara

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"Two of the ex-teachers, who are using this position to get more authority in their criticism, had barely been around us for over two years." - Prophecy/Ramose

Hmmm I'm not quite sure how to read this.  Is he saying that they'd only been around him for a little over two years?  Or that they hadn't been around for over two years before leaving?

If it's the former, that is obviously untrue.  I asked my husband when he first met them, and he said it was the day that Halo 2 came out; they played it together at a party.  It was released November 9, 2004.  The last retreat we went to was in May 2014, and we continued to see the head teachers afterwards.  He didn't officially leave until December 2014 or January 2015.  During those 10 years he lived with Ramose in two apartments, the "Alachua house" and the current temple. He also lived with Veos briefly.

If Ramose meant he hadn't been around in over two years, I don't think that's accurate either.  We moved three hours away in September of 2014.  We started to distance ourselves purposely a little before that, in June of 2014. Before that, in 2014, he was the Flow B teacher, he put together and lead a thought control workshop that was for Flow A and Flow B students, he maintained the website, he gave almost daily distance transmissions to students who connected to him and the school's seal through the TDS Facebook page, we visited on visiting days when we could (they permitted us to bring the baby to those if we made sure he wasn't loud), we went to the May retreat in North Carolina, and we visited Veos' home regularly to attend the astrology lectures.

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that no, we couldn't visit as much because we had a son.  They changed their policies for gatherings.  It had used to be that locals only paid $20 or $30, which was doable as we went every month and weren't making much money.  People also came and went, sometimes they slept at the temple but sometimes they slept at home.  This changed in I think (not exactly sure) the Summer of 2013, basically right before our son was born.  The prices increased to $100 (so $200 for the both of us), and people were required to stay there the whole time and spend the night.  This was not possible with a baby. 

The only reason we were able to go to the May 2014 retreat in NC was because we were able to have our own hotel room.  However, we were told we were not allowed to bring our son to ANY of the lectures or activities at the building they were held.  So one of us had to stay in the hotel room at all times. 

They were not exactly welcoming to families. We were pretty much the only family in the school that I know of (there were some other married couples without children).  Amongst the local group there were only people dating (I'd say 80% of the local students had been with 2-3 other local students. 'Partner swapping' was the norm). We were the odd ones out being married with a child.  Outside of the local group, there were other students with children, but their spouses weren't involved, so the student could come alone while the spouse watched the child/ren. We didn't have a choice; they wouldn't allow us to be around them much once our son was born.

They will advise students against getting a girlfriend, because it distracts from the path.  They say that Trillis' girlfriend stole him away.  I've heard from multiple students that they say I "stole Aischias away" (and even that I "ruined his life") which is strange, seeing that when we started dating I was an active member of the school and I wished to remain so.  But they were angry when we started dating, and acted like my husband betrayed them and I was a seductress.  We didn't want to be around them as much when they treated us that way; can you blame us?  Yet we tried to fight these feelings and remained as active in the school as we could, including going to.

Now I will address something that I have heard from at least five students, probably more.  They are telling people that they paid my husband $2000 for a website they never received.  They did pay $2000 for him to build a website.  This was third the website he built for them; the first two he did for free.  He charged them for the latest one because he had a family and couldn't afford to sacrifice paying work for no money.  Normally a website like he made them would cost over $10,000.  He works as a web developer and  mobile app developer at a web company now, and those are the typical prices for websites and apps of that degree of complexity. Also, Veos told him they didn't want him to design the site because he was a horrible designer. So they said one of the more artistic Daskalos would design it.

The original agreement was that he was going to program the site, and another Daskalos was going to design it.  It was a very advanced and unique classroom system, using the latest technology. He built it from the ground up, customizing it exactly for the needs of TDS. He completed his end of the deal, except for a few minor features, but the site wasn't close to done yet because it wasn't designed. When he shared it with the other Daskalos, that Daskalos was not familiar with this system, and thought he could buy a template. My husband tried to explain to him that it was a unique system and that couldn't be done.  Many emails were exchanged, and it was getting nearer to the time it was supposed to be finished (the end of 2014).  Eventually, my husband offered to design it himself, to stop the back-and-forth between him and the other Daskalos, as it was wasting a lot of time and causing a lot of aggravation.  This was in October 2014. 

He began designing it, and by this point he didn't want to be part TDS anymore, but didn't make it official yet.  In November or December Veos emailed him, asking him when the website would be done, saying that he's not surprised it's late, which seemed a little disrespectful considering how much work my husband was doing for them for almost nothing. He replied by asking him for patience, and told him that he's spending a lot of time (all the hours he was putting in made the $2000 average out to about $5 an hour) on a website for an organization whose business practices and the way they treat their students he disagrees with.

Once he said that, they didn't want him part of the site anymore.  He offered to just let them take over by giving them what he created and programmed (which was the original agreement), and to teach Teleson and Ramose how to use the system.  We drove three hours (one way) to Gainesville just so he could teach them.  When he got to Teleson's house, Ramose didn't even bother to show up, so he taught Teleson alone, who seemed to understand the system and like it.  This was in January 2015.

For whatever reasons, they decided to make a whole new website, even though they have had the one he made for them since January that was finished.  They probably made a new site so they could feel like they understood their own website better (since he wouldn't be their web maintainer as he used to), and to make sure he didn't have any part of it, which is understandable.  It wouldn't so good to have a new website and have to tell everyone that an ex-Daskalos made it.  However, they've been acting like they had to make a new one because he never finished it. But just to be clear, they never asked for their money back. They never told him they didn't think he completed it. Everyone who saw it said they really liked it (including Ramose, Veos, and multiple Daskaloi). They just started telling their students otherwise to discredit him after he left. 

October 14, 2015, 01:37:05 PM
Reply #148

Kemetin

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The following is going to really hurt me as I didn't want to go this personal in my life. This was brought to my attention as this was posted on their site.

"None of these people ever brought up health, malpractice, or any of the other numerous accusations they are now launching at us, at the time that they left. These ideas developed long after they left as an afterthought, and likely out of anger, to justify their actions in their minds. Two of the ex-teachers, who are using this position to get more authority in their criticism, had barely been around us for over two years."


Ok, if they are going to lie, I'll post proof. TDS old site was deleted but it's ok. This is really embarrassing for me but the truth has to be exposed and I don't care about how I look.



If anyone wants to know, I was in a mental hospital for being suicidal due to the severe pain I was in (which will happen to those who suffer from severe pain), must I suffer further humiliation and get my medical records of that showing the truth?  :redface:



So there, my vices, nightmares from PTSD from the trauma I had, mods please do not delete the attachments, as embarrassing as this is, the truth has to be known. The date is 2010, they've known for years. Is this really the work of a troll?

First of all I don't think you should be embarrassed by the content of any of that. Everyone has vices and has struggled in some way or another during life, and obviously you more than most through no fault of your own - few have the courage to put those vices and struggles before the public for a cause they believe in, and I think that deserves to be commended.

However I think you possibly read into what was written incorrectly, specifically that first sentence.

Quote
None of these people ever brought up health, malpractice, or any of the other numerous accusations they are now launching at us, at the time that they left.

This could be read a number of ways (like anything) and obviously everyone's individual experiences is going to color how they read it (like anything).

Having been a part of the discussion around these subjects going on within the online portion of the school (and this post was addressed to the school), I believe that the bolded "health" refers not to your health problems you suffered after your accident, but to the claims that the practices themselves are inherently dangerous and consistently causing health problems in otherwise healthy students, which just doesn't appear to be the case.

As for the malpractice, that does appear to refer to your claim that they, driven by ego, insisted that you continue with only their recommended practices and intentionally withheld knowledge of an outside source that could provide you with better treatment. This is really more or less impossible to address, since it's a subjective matter which largely depends on both the nature of your final interactions and eventual parting, and how those were perceived by the involved parties. As such I don't really think I can comment on that either way, but I do want to address the question of whether TDS's training routine is excessively dangerous.

Western magicians have been performing exercises which work exclusively with the Astral Light and the Vital Force* for centuries (The Qabbalistic Cross portion of the LBRP and the Middle Pillar exercise come to mind as the most well known examples - the latter is as intensive in terms of the amount of vital force generated as anything I've practiced under TDS). Even Bardon doesn't teach a thing about working with any primarily Yin energies until the 4th or 8th chapter, depending on whether you count the Earth/Water accumulation exercises, and nowhere does he teach anything about obtaining it from the physical environment around us.

*Neither of which, according to Hermetic thought (and my own experience, for what it's worth), are purely Yang. They are more Yang than Yin, thus their externally Yang properties, but they also have Yin properties, or they would be useless for the uses to which they are put in practical magic.

Likewise, there are plenty of Daoist schools which make little or no use of Yin Chi for large segments of their training, tending towards viewing it as a passive force which should be sustained through some basic exercises or lifestyle habits, but otherwise not touched on a whole lot. And then there's Yoga...

Are there risks with any kind of intensive energy practice? Of course. And generally speaking, our society as a whole isn't one conducive towards spiritual practice. Exercises of these kind were first designed when people ate organic diets and were constantly accumulating Yin energy from the Earth instead of wearing synthetic soled shoes and living in high rise buildings. So on a societal level there's going to be an adaption period, especially when (as was summarized in a quote someone posted a few pages back ( http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22156.msg224132.html#msg224132 ) there's a vast difference in lifestyle between those passing down and teaching these practices and those practicing them without adjusting their lifestyle to match the context in which they were designed.

So if there's some grand flaw in TDS's curriculum which enhances the danger (speaking of the general exercises given to all students, not to anything that was given to you specifically in hopes of aiding your health), as far as I know it consists of a few possibilities - one is Ramose and Veos having expectations of their students out of line with reality when it comes to lifestyle and applying the lecture content instead of jumping straight to the practices (which is enhanced by their not having direct supervision over the students in the traditional manner, which is part of the whole online model which they've always maintained as a work in progress).

Or, having never truly been immersed in the kind of degenerated Western lifestyle most students are coming from (this isn't intended as an insult to anyone, since it well and truly includes myself), not understanding the need to place greater emphasis on changing that lifestyle to be more in line with the one lived by (and again, this is a flaw I see in a lot of spiritual teachers - they forget that they're teaching to people who've lived very different lives to themselves - Bardon is a good example, when he claims that a student should reach 10 minutes of mental silence within a month, something maybe possible for a child training in a remote Himalayan location, if you hold with that theory, or even a truly dedicated student in the 1950's before the advent of a society living around television, mobile phones, the internet and so forth, but not possible for the average 20-something "I'm looking for something more in life and still trying to figure out what" types who consist of the primarily demographic of Westerners seeking out these systems).

 So maybe they should address that (and there has been a lot of discussion of these issues in the school lately even before the drama blowing out from this thread occurred) - going forward in a more concrete manner, they could place a greater focus on drilling into students to not just skim over the lectures and get to the practical work but truly revamp their life to be in line with the practitioners of the past and to focus on the mental and lifestyle work and not just the active meditation, or they could include more exercises and concrete methods for maintaining healthy energetic balance. They could monitor student's health and lifestyle at a closer level from the very beginning to ensure they're making the necessary changes and anticipate future problems.

 I'd fact I'd like to see these things happen, I know I would have benefited from them tremendously when I joined the school and would be disappointed if they didn't implement these changes for future students to benefit themselves. But TDS is, after all, still a work in progress, they've always been open about that. I didn't expect perfection going in (and anyone going into any spiritual system expecting perfection is inevitably going to be disappointed - it's like getting into a relationship with someone and expecting to never have a disagreement or dispute).

Again, none of this is addressed at your specifically, since your situation is well outside the norm, but at the general concept of excessive danger in practicing the school's curriculum.

I am curious, can you point to any one, concrete case of someone who was in good health prior to joining the school, didn't experience any major health problems from outside sources while within the school, lived, or adopted soon after joining, a lifestyle of the sort we've discussed (healthy and balanced diet, physically active, some kind of stretching and exercise regime, no major drug/medication/alcohol/tobacco intake, plenty of contact with nature), and yet went on to suffer major and continuous health problems which they were able to demonstrate had a direct causal link to the practice of TDS's regime specifically? I would be very interested in such a person's input on the subject.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 02:08:34 PM by Kemetin »

October 14, 2015, 01:51:23 PM
Reply #149

Peoples Champion

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Nectar I know had some issues and his became worse, there was another student who also PM'd me who was suffering some effects, I didn't bring him into it as he seems to want to stay out of it so that is why I haven't bring him into it, and I will respect that as I know it is not ethical to bring someone into it without their consent.


I know Westerners do use it, I know in the deleted Facebook thread that someone practicing Bardon's systems begin to suffer severe migraines. I do know Bardon even stated that if you have nerve issues you shouldn't do it, work with vital force. I know it seems to cause some other issues as well. I know it was a website and I wish I bookmarked it but I sadly do not remember.

But Bardon at least stated so and I admire that about him. He didn't ever state that he created some perfect system. He stated what to avoid, he didn't keep on insisting he was right the whole time. That is what I take issue with from the physical side and on top of the discrediting as well which honestly did hurt me as to say they never knew was a lie.

Bardon is gentler too, it isn't a Shen Cultivation technique. Using Yang Qi only as well as using a Shen Cultivation technique seems to have bad effects, I was using the astral light analogy to have people understand it a little better as I know not everyone understands Chinese Medicine terminology, so forgive me for not being that clear sometimes.

Using Vital Force alone of course wouldn't do that, unless you have nerve issues as Bardon said, and he seemed to have known about the excessive heat as that is the best description of it. Burning pain and feeling like the nerves are on fire.

Forgive me editing a lot, coughing a lot due to medication side effect.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 02:03:30 PM by Peoples Champion »