Author Topic: The Divine Science Probationer Enrollment now open (August 5, 2013)  (Read 35758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

October 13, 2015, 09:51:34 AM
Reply #120

Peoples Champion

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 30
  • Karma:
    0
    • View Profile
I will address your questions first before I continue with what you stated Pax.

No their teachings did not help me develop spiritually in the slightest. I never reached any states of meditation unless you count unrelenting physical agony a meditation state, lol which thanks to that contributed heavily to also having high blood pressure.

My character did not change for the better, if anything I would say it became far worse as I didnít understand mental problems compared to the degree I do now since they always just say baseless things like smiling more will cure it and some erroneous information as well.


No actually, afterward I became incredibly jaded for a while. I sincerely lost all hope as I had a bad taste of spirituality so I was jaded for a while and kept myself very guarded until my current path.

Now to address your post. Once again, we have mentioned how they were saying that it was going to care or heal us. The fact you have called it a miscommunication means you are either ignoring the posts or you simply did not read it, I cannot say because I am not you.


Second, every single person that has had issues has sought treatment by themselves and trying to many different things. It isnít a miscommunication to be told to do something by the teachers and even worse that they were insistent that they were correct. That isnít a miscommunication at all in the slightest. Every single one of us did seek treatment, myself getting into debt over it, so please do not say something like that as it shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Contrary to what TDS and I guess most people think (this isnít aimed at you as I have seen it a lot in my life), sick people donít just sit around all day moping that they are sick. Countless of them keep trying different things to the point of becoming bankrupt, especially in the United States.


As for the attitude of the teachers, the pictures have shown what Trillis is talking about, not to mention my experiences as well as the ones who have come forward.


So I understand this thread is big so it is a lot to keep track of, but I had to mention that what you are saying is simply incorrect.


I do want to add that I did not join at all for healing as before I joined I didn't have severe nerve issues.

October 13, 2015, 09:55:46 AM
Reply #121

Akenu

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3370
  • Karma:
    -40
  • Personal Text
    यम या रा आना
    • View Profile
    • Akenu's Initiation
@Peoples Champion: If you still have the high pressure problem you could started carcade, it's a tea made out of leaves of red hibiscus, it does lower the blood pressure quite drastically and long term use might have permanent effects (never tried the last assertion)

October 13, 2015, 10:09:04 AM
Reply #122

WailOfSumer

  • New Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 2
  • Karma:
    -4
    • View Profile
I've been following this argument from the beginning and I've finally been moved to create an account because of the entire lack of common sense and assumptions that have been going around. I really only wanted to point out one aspect of the argument because the victim blaming I have seen is disgusting.

Nobody here has stated that they joined TDS just to be treated for whatever ails them. Now from what I have seen, the Daskaloi do say that to begin this path (really any path) you have to be healthy in body and mind, so they will do what they can to help you along the way to healing. What is painfully obvious though is they are obviously not qualified to make any recommendations or prescriptions. These men are not doctors or psychologists and as far as I know they haven't decided to specialize in esoteric healing, they are making their best guess. Since they make such a big deal out of self knowledge one would think they would know better than to play doctor and give out treatments when they don't fully understand what the individual's specific need is.

October 13, 2015, 10:11:23 AM
Reply #123

Pax_Valeos

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 22
  • Karma:
    16
    • View Profile
Peoples Champion,

I thank you for your response.

First off let me just clarify that I was not trying to suggest that you or any other sick person sits around moping that they are sick, and I sincerely apologize if my message came across in that manner.

Secondly, there is absolutely no way for me or any other person on here to know the exact conversations you have had with your teacher(s) at the time of your injury. For that reason, it is difficult to remain objective and truly know whether the teachers did in fact claim to be all-knowing in your situation and suggest vehemently (with no exception) that you should absolutely not seek out treatment elsewhere, and their herbal and astrological solutions are the only way. If you can provide direct evidence of that; then that is worrying, because that substantiates your claim. But for now, you will have to understand that your proposition is currently just that: a claim. It has been confirmed by your brother and perhaps another former TDS' member, but that is all.

Thirdly, in terms of spiritual experiences that is exactly where the emphasis must be. You say that you did not achieve any benefits of any of their spiritual practices, so that's one personal anecdote (or N = 1; as we call it in scientific literature) of a poor outcome of the TDS teaching system.

Now, if this number (N) increases where the majority of people on TDS actually have not, nor are experiencing any progress spiritually, that is a very honest and correct way of critiquing their system.

Outside of that, I am afraid that there is not much an outsider can say, except to hopefully get to investigate the system for oneself and to truly evaluate those spiritual teachings and practices in terms of actual qualitative progress.

October 13, 2015, 10:11:55 AM
Reply #124

Nectar

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 14
  • Karma:
    4
    • View Profile
I emphasize everything People's Champion has said.

Their teachings did not help me evolve spiritually in any way whatsoever. Actually I've had much more consciousness raising experiences before I joined TDS, with other practices using not nearly the same amount of effort that I had put into TDS. And like PC, the only thing that it did do was make me unable to sleep, and overload my nervous system. You have to undersand I didn't have this before I joined, not to the extent their practices have caused. My health problems were gradually increasing slowly but surely due to their practices. They always said to just keep doing the practices. They never told me to perhaps stop certain meditations, only almost four years later did one of the teachers say to completely adjust meditation routines.

They specifically told me promises that if I do this, I would be okay. If I waited this amount of time, I would make progress. If I do this remedy, I will see my life change dramatically.

October 13, 2015, 10:14:00 AM
Reply #125

Trowa

  • Veritas Moderator
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 558
  • Karma:
    40
    • View Profile
I would like to discuss something that Trillis's latest post touches on, and I hope that TDS members will respond.  This strays from individual experiences and character, and focuses on TDS's methods.

My understanding of TDS's mission is generally becoming closer to the Divine.  The name implies there's a science to do so.  Science is the building of knowledge, experience, and observations to gain greater understanding of the universe, so the "Divine Science" would be the pursuit of understanding God. 

Every university of which I am aware promotes discovering new knowledge, new understanding, and sharing that knowledge.  Students of said universities are allowed to seek out inspiration from many sources as long as they meet a small number of reasonable limits set by ethics and morals (such as "don't experiment drugs on people without first testing on animals", etc).  Outside of these limits, every source of material is welcome, including material from other universities, as they're all seeking to understand a sliver of the universe.

There are many other sources of Divine inspiration outside of the leaders of TDS.  In Trillis's case, he found another one, but was never "betraying" TDS in doing so.  In fact, I would say that Trillis learned more from the experience, and I would think that most teachers would be happy with this progress, as it could strengthen the student's capability in the teacher's curriculum.  A physics professor would be pleased if a student sought out tutoring and came back the next week stronger.

Why, then, is Trillis reprimanded for doing the same?

We know that there is not one single way to find the Divine, and that there are many practitioners out there who have found success.  Is TDS's "divine science" so rigid, so absolute, that finding instruction or inspiration anywhere else is an absolute sin?  If a touch of divinity for all is the true goal of TDS, are you not happy when a student finds it?  Trillis's work should be praised!  Heralded!  Trillis should feel as if he is furthering himself and the school, but he comes away from it admonished because he strayed from the pack?

October 13, 2015, 10:38:54 AM
Reply #126

Shankara

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 28
  • Karma:
    4
    • View Profile
There seems to be some outrage here from current students about former students posting their experiences.  Not from everyone, of course, but from some.  I've gotten private messages from students attacking me, and I know others have too.  I have not only related only truthful things, but I have withheld many things that are only known to a few people, so that I can make sure I only say things that can be verified by many (things that happened at gatherings, for instance). Yet still I am getting hate mail, so I see I need to better illustrate my reasons for speaking out, and show that it's not an attempt to destroy the school because of ill feelings.

To clearly explain my motivations, let me point to the words of Prophecy/Ramose himself from the "Going to join the AMORC" thread: 

I am sorry, but if you are a magical Order, then you claim the right to guide hopeful aspirants on the path to the Divine Light (since the orders I mentioned all claim to be hermetic in paradigm).  Claiming that right, which is the greatest of responsibilities, they must be subject to the most severe criticisms when they waiver or behave immaturely.  Considering the incredible responsibility they claim to take up, I think I am in fact far too gentle in my criticisms.  Also, I believe it is the responsibility of those who are aware of the shortcomings of various groups to make them known to those considering pursuing those groups.  To illustrate this, I believed it was my responsibility, seeing a flaw in the way these Orders were operating, to point them out to those reading this thread.

October 13, 2015, 10:42:34 AM
Reply #127

Trowa

  • Veritas Moderator
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 558
  • Karma:
    40
    • View Profile
I don't care who you are, anyone sending hate mail is subject to at least a temporary ban.

This is a touchy subject, let's all try to keep our heads cool.

October 13, 2015, 11:13:36 AM
Reply #128

Shankara

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 28
  • Karma:
    4
    • View Profile
It was on Facebook.  I doubt the person has even read this thread, or has an account here.  Ramose and Veos are complaining to people about me and getting them to contact me about this. Some of them have been very nice, but the one on Facebook was not.

October 13, 2015, 11:18:33 AM
Reply #129

Akenu

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3370
  • Karma:
    -40
  • Personal Text
    यम या रा आना
    • View Profile
    • Akenu's Initiation
@Shankara: I cannot see pictures so I can't tell, but if you haven't posted a screenshot where it says that Ramose sent people your way, please do so. This could be considered as an organized threat and therefore be ilegal.

October 13, 2015, 12:19:07 PM
Reply #130

Felidae

  • A Veritas Regular

  • Offline
  • **

  • 85
  • Karma:
    23
    • View Profile
This is really going to extremes, where either TDS is a horrible cult that only hurts people or it's the most wonderful thing ever and anyone who critiques it is a horrible person worth only spitting on. At the risk of committing a golden mean fallacy, based on my limited knowledge(reading articles, a short stay in the probationer class where I quickly left due to concerns about psychological manipulation-and feel rather vindicated that apparently I am not the only person to have noticed this, etc) the truth is a bit somewhere in between; a school with some validity, some valid knowledge that has probably genuinely helped some people a great deal on their path... but which has problems both with the school itself and also likely reflecting some of the wider problems in hermetic culture("Crowley did it" really isn't a defense; Crowley could be a total ASSHOLE at times) where the teachers likely are themselves STILL LEARNING in some ways and have their issues to work out.

Since balance in character is so important for many spiritual paths, perhaps those on either side should consider the necessity for some balance in their point of view too? It's horrible that this subject, which should cause bliss and freedom, has instead caused so much pain.

October 13, 2015, 12:21:57 PM
Reply #131

Shankara

  • Settling In

  • Offline
  • *

  • 28
  • Karma:
    4
    • View Profile
Akenu- They haven't contacted me. The only threats I received were threats of bad karma. They got their girlfriend (Facebook) and our mutual Kriya friend who they've called their "spiritual older brother" to contact me.  The latter was concerned about the drama but told me that sometimes you have to be a "warrior for righteousness" as long as you're doing everything out of compassion and not anger, even if the actions might look the same). They both said that Ramose and Veos told them they are very sad (trying to get their sympathy) and how I'm making up lies about them (false). Neither has read the thread, they were just told things by Ramose and Veos. 

Speaking of students contacting me, we received a phone call from Teleson Daskalos today, who asked us not to share the video I talked about.  As its my husband's video, he makes the decision as to whether or not to share it.  After the call he decided not to. He is a little worried about possible legal action (we're not sure what the laws are, but it's not worth the risk to our family). So I apologize that I won't be able to share the video with those who've asked for it.

October 13, 2015, 12:33:23 PM
Reply #132

Trowa

  • Veritas Moderator
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 558
  • Karma:
    40
    • View Profile
This is really going to extremes, where either TDS is a horrible cult that only hurts people or it's the most wonderful thing ever and anyone who critiques it is a horrible person worth only spitting on.

To be fair to both sides, I haven't seen either of these extremes.  :)

October 13, 2015, 03:26:34 PM
Reply #133

Kichara

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 982
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Row, Row, Row Your Boat
    • View Profile
    • Check it Out.
@Pax_Valeos:

    Did TDS' teachings help you develop spiritually?
Yes

    Did you reach states of meditation that are described by many Spiritual traditions with clear signs of progress?
Yeah, I actually just read about some of my experiences in The Taoist Classics translated by Thomas Cleary. Was excited to see them in there. I'm not going to describe exactly which ones because that is private, but I can at least say that in the sphere of yogic achievements I have certainly experienced the traditional effects of pratyahara.

    Did your character change for the better?
Certainly. I have become a more kind and accepting person when I was generally quick to judge and dismiss. There are a number of other improvements that I would associate with my experience with TDS, but that seems like the one most connected to the school.

    Did it strengthen your belief in the Divine through actual direct mystical experiences?
The number of things I have seen, experienced, and taken part in has left me with no choice but to either completely deny my experience of life as a trustworthy source of any knowledge, or know that the Divine is both there and reachable. So, yes.

Hey, whats up?

Please vote in my poll:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12212.0

October 14, 2015, 02:30:09 AM
Reply #134

Ekstatikos

  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 411
  • Karma:
    20
  • Personal Text
    "It was ME! I was the turkey all along...!"
    • View Profile
This is really going to extremes, where either TDS is a horrible cult that only hurts people or it's the most wonderful thing ever and anyone who critiques it is a horrible person worth only spitting on.

This reminded me of this:


Source: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2939

We know that there is not one single way to find the Divine, and that there are many practitioners out there who have found success.  Is TDS's "divine science" so rigid, so absolute, that finding instruction or inspiration anywhere else is an absolute sin?  If a touch of divinity for all is the true goal of TDS, are you not happy when a student finds it?  Trillis's work should be praised!  Heralded!  Trillis should feel as if he is furthering himself and the school, but he comes away from it admonished because he strayed from the pack?

I am probably not the best equipped to respond to this, but I can share my thoughts. I have often heard it said at TDS that it is traditional when learning from a new instructor to commit oneself to studying only from them for at least the first year of instruction. This increases focus and lessens distraction, which can be a great obstacle early on. As this relates to Trillis, I didn't see him being reprimanded for travelling with a swami (in fact if you check Veos' words from the screenshot, you'll notice he says "[we] think it's great to have the opportunity to travel with a swami"), but only for sharing the fact publicly, perhaps because this could result in the kind of distraction mentioned. These are only my musings, it would be great if a TDS teacher could comment on this, it's a good question.


Did TDS' teachings help you develop spiritually?

That's a pretty vague question. Could you refine it? If you mean have I experienced the spiritual in my daily life more as a direct result of TDS, then yes. My life has turned from relatively mundane to being infused with magic on a daily basis.

Did you reach states of meditation that are described by many Spiritual traditions with clear signs of progress?

Yes, as Kichara said, pratyahara being the most well known. I've also had other experiences during meditation ranging from intense physical symptoms like heat and cold, distortions of my perception of time and location, and intense visions and inspirations. Moreover, there are certain waking states that are more or less permanent that have now become a part of my daily reality, which I can directly attribute to my progress in the practices I learnt studying at TDS.

As a side-note, TDS has it's own taxonomy of waking and meditative states based on the Neoplatonic tradition, so the student can verify their progress in meditative states for themselves. Anyone can easily verify that the states TDS describe correspond to those described in other recognized spiritual traditions.

Did your character change for the better?

Yes, in some ways strikingly. The details are personal, but I have broken myself of several addictions, and have overcome some major vices in areas like anger and callousness. This is really something that is hard to talk about, but people who have applied the system conscientiously know the extent of self-transformation that is possible using some of it's most simple techniques.

Did it strengthen your belief in the Divine through actual direct mystical experiences?

It depends on what you mean by the Divine. As I've said, visions and the like during meditation are not uncommon, and I've definitely developed an appreciation for the unseen presence and influence of Deity in my daily life. On the other hand, I am now wholly convinced of the reality of magic (on a scale I could never before have imagined), and due to the direct ties of these experiences with TDS, also convinced of the status of the TDS staff as, at least as far as my experience goes, effective and attained magicians. Either that, or I have suffered random and entirely convincing shared hallucinations whilst somehow being entirely sane otherwise. Anyway, I don't need to labour this point, even many of those now critiquing TDS cannot deny the things they experienced via TDS as being extraordinary.


As I said before, the vast majority of TDS students have had positive experiences, and many would answer in the affirmative to many if not all of the above questions. This doesn't invalidate any legitimate concerns that have been raised in this thread - it is just a reminder that far more often than not, those practising the system have found it effective, and the overall experience positive. This doesn't mean that TDS is perfect, and it certainly doesn't mean that TDS is the best or only way to achieve these results. A lot of it comes down to personal preference I believe, as the school does have a rather specific flavour and philosophy attached to it. That being said, there is always room for improvement, and it is my sincere belief that the legitimate concerns raised here will be taken into account in implementing some necessary changes for the benefit of current and future students alike. For those who suffered, again, I can only express my sympathy and my willingness to be a part of this ongoing conversation with them, and to wish them all the very best going forward.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:34:00 AM by Ekstatikos »
~ Io Daimon Eriounes Theon ~

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" ~ Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis

To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent, and To Liberate