Author Topic: The Divine Science Probationer Enrollment now open (August 5, 2013)  (Read 32478 times)

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October 12, 2015, 08:28:49 AM
Reply #60

Svatejasaa

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The comment that supposedly started this whole chain of reviews was my comment that, in a certain post (EDIT: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22902.0.html) made a couple years ago, none of the negative posters there prior to a certain point were very involved in TDS. Somehow the following posters responded as if I had said that no students involved with TDS ever had a negative experience of it, which was not implicitly or explicitly stated.

My experience with TDS has been quite contrary to what some of the above posters described. If I had thought TDS was guilty of a quarter of its accusations here, I wouldn’t be a member. Recently talking with another teacher, we both agreed that we would not be students if we felt like this was true. I have never felt that the Hierophants implicitly or explicitly manipulated or lied to me, even for some “greater good.”

But the accusations aren't surprising. They are made against every contemporary spiritual teacher. All it takes is for a couple students with some ego issues to feel slighted in some way, and then they'll spread some toxic gossip.

At least in the case of TDS, the vast majority of the students are happy, as you can see in that post linked above,  and the group of students working against it is a small minority. This minority is about six people, including all the negative posters above, who are working together to try and smear it as it again opens its doors for new probationers.

TDS is not perfect, and it’s certainly not for everyone. As far as I can see, there is no air of superiority among other traditions, however. Ramose and Veos, and the daskaloi (class teachers), regularly praise other traditions for various things. If TDS was elitist, you wouldn’t see Ramose and Veos and the daskaloi regularly reading scripture from other traditions each weekend at the temple, and praising their masters and practices. Nor would the Hierophants have invited a Sufi from another lineage over to TDS a few times, as you yourselves all likely recall, who once also praised Ramose and Veos so highly because he said that in twenty years of traveling through the middle east and Asia, he had never met "any cats like Ramose and Veos."

The whole idea of “guilting” students into that they will be “punished for lifetimes” for leaving is also a fabrication. Ramose has kindly encouraged multiple students to leave the school because he thought it would not benefit them, and they did so gracefully.

I have only heard Ramose and Veos repeatedly talk about how they are fallible and NOT divine. Nor have I never heard either make proclamations about being divine, although I have seen some students treat them that way, even though they constantly insist on the contrary. That is why I like Ramose and Veos. Ironically, the two daskaloi who left TDS went to two different teachers, and both of them were the opposite: both of their new teachers are gurus who are worshipped as divine.  One of them decided to leapfrog Ramose and go learn from one of his old Kriya teachers, even though that teacher praises Ramose and Veos to be wonderful teachers and counts them among their best students (as other TDS members have personally asked him about to verify). Some people need to feel like they have a divine teacher, even though, from what I have seen of  either teacher, neither seems truly perfect.

I would argue that Ramose and Veos are quite contrary to Mathers & Crowley. They are completely different in how they teach and their behavior. Whereas Crowley was experimenting with drugs, having orgies and the like, Veos is, and always has been, completely sober, devotional and quite conservative person who grew up in a conservative part of the US, and his writing style has nothing at all in common with Crowley.

Here’s the thing about past lives. It is an important part of becoming a magician to know "where you came from," and our school (as of the new system) has techniques to help that process. Truthfully, Ramose and Veos very seldom talk about their past lives. When they do, it’s usually after students have performed a past life meditation through the akasha. Afterwards, people typically share their experiences. Their memories sometimes reveal Ramose and Veos' past lives, and rarely the Hierophants talk about their own lives in reference to the memories students have. They are not sitting on a throne saying, “I was person XYZ, behold my glory!” And honestly, Ramose and Veos hold a fairly low opinion of the Golden Dawn. They would never brag about being Mathers/Crowley, in fact they would not be proud of that.

Finally, Ramose and Veos do not consider their students to be the "elite" souls. They call anyone who practices magic an "old soul," because magic is an art that typically only spiritually inclined people (i.e. older souls) are attracted to. Ramose and Veos once taught the daskaloi a particular daoist technique, and after showing us how to do it for an hour, commented: "And just in case you guys ever think you are accomplished meditators, the Daoists from which this technique comes would not perform it for less than three days consecutively." With comments like that, it's clear that they do not see even their most advanced students (or themselves) as some "elite" beings.


People’s Champion,

Ramose might have made a mistake with you by believing standing postures would heal you when they wouldn’t. That is truly unfortunate because I wish you could have felt what I and many others did with the practices. But we have to remember that he isn't perfect and sometimes he does make mistakes. Even if a great spiritual teacher tells you to do something like standing postures and it begins hurting you terribly, I would think you should stop regardless of what he advises. That’s part of being a reasonable person: your health is your responsibility and the responsibility of your licensed medical professional.

I can't blame him for teaching a system to you that he has known from the past to be so effective. I'm sorry that some of the techniques didn’t work for you, or that you were recommended them when an injury conflicted, and I really would have liked to see them cure your issues. However, they worked for me, and Ramose’s herbal advice (which is not professional medical advice) has rid me and countless other students from obscure medical issues that allopathic doctors could not resolve. Moreover, as you yourself mentioned, he apparently even told you to stop the practices later, so in my limited view, it seems like he had your interest in mind.

Any teacher is liable to make mistakes; no one is perfect. However, as someone who has performed the techniques and has taught them to over a hundred people, I know that for virtually everyone they have a very positive impact. I don’t need to tell you this; all of the people making negative posts here know that the vast majority students in the school have experienced powerful healing and spiritual evolution as result of the practices.

The internal alchemy techniques TDS teaches are effective. If a student is not already in decent health with a stable psyche or perform them incorrectly, they can exacerbate some issues. That is why as teachers, we try to wait to teach those techniques until we are confident a student is at that point. Sometimes we may make a mistake. This is also why techniques like these are generally not taught to the public.

The internal alchemy techniques TDS teaches are not unique. They are found all over the world in various traditions, only altered in slight ways. Upon initiating students into the higher practices, none of which the above posters so far were, the Hierophants gave us, the daskaloi, the names of the techniques in other traditions and told us where they came from. Even on my own, I know of a famous, contemporary Buddhist lineage that teaches a simplified form of the Vision of the Angel as their main beginner practice, and several students who have found other, higher level TDS techniques in other traditions too (e.g. the steaming process utilized in one of the sanctuary meditations). That is because Ramose and Veos are not making something up. They have their teachers and lineages, and have an exceptional knowledge of occultism. Of course, there is no one need to take my word for it. A quick look around Veritas, and the writings Prophecy and Veos produced as early teenagers, should be sufficient evidence that these were not people of ordinary knowledge.

The claim that TDS lacks compassion is also very contrary to what I have experienced. Any time I check our facebook page, for example, someone is sharing a difficulty they are having in life, and dozens of people are responding with encouraging and caring remarks. Ramose and Veos are also among the kindest and most compassionate people I have met.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 11:10:24 AM by Svatejasaa »

October 12, 2015, 12:32:39 PM
Reply #61

KFT

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Hello to everyone, this is my first post on this forum and I am writing in this tread just to share some of my views of this school.
I was a student before the new site was up and running, I believe I was in the first round of students or the second that TDS got so it must have been like 4-5 years ago. I left pretty much disappointed about the schools curriculum, it’s method of “teaching” and some of the people that lurk around TDS.

Basically back then the lessons were posted on the forum, and weekly there was a chat on mIRC with your supervisor (mine was James aka Svatejasaa). I tried really hard to make it to those chats, even though it was like 3-4 AM in Europe when they would take place. I really hoped there would be some quality talking, but for most of the time the topics drifted left and right and had nothing to do with the lessons of that week that got posted. However when there was a little bit of pertinent questioning, for instance - where this tradition stems from, is it linked to Bardon, where the techniques that it teaches come from we always got evasive answers like you will learn all of this later and so on, which is fine if you consider yourself a new student, you don’t need to actually know that much right? I mean you put your trust into some people that what they teach is right for you, but they can’t give articulate answers right from the start.
 Also I’ve seen how the supervisor got to actually manipulate some answers just to fit in line of the teaching. I mean there was one answer in the chat like for instance that no matter what object you meditate upon will reach you to “God” and there was another when the chat got posted on the forum. The procedure was that the supervisor got to post the entire chat on the forum but surely the some answers got edited to fit the view of the head teachers right ?

After some time the new site was up and there was also photos from some of the meeting and retreats. That’s the first time when I actually saw the teachers and head teachers. There was a big surprise because all of this guys were like 25 years old. I mean who would call themselves a teacher of anything by the age of 25??? I don’t know exactly how the university personnel is ranked in US universities, but over here in Europe you have to at least 42-45 y/o to have the degree of a teacher. That’s when I got some real questions with all this school, I remembered reading some posts of Veos and Prophecy over here on Veritas and they were ok-ish . They were in fact synthesis of various books, theories about different branches of occultism and systems of mysticism.  All in all, I was really surprised by the youngness of the teachers, also there was some guys who were at least 55-60 y/o who considered them teachers… so I thought if they can, so can I. If I remember correctly we were always thought that age doesn’t matter, that we are old souls, and so on….. so there is nothing wrong in pretending to teach something and that you are really knowledgeable in a field if you are a “old soul” right?

Now as Beka said, there is this tendency of the head teachers to talk and let the answers in the air so to speak. For instance Veos was in chat one night and told one student , on the subject of Saint Germain, to practice diligently theurgy and who knows maybe the saint will come at your door. Also they said they touched the feet of immortal masters, who are not a part of this world, and other stuff like seeing a dead master in flash when he was meditating in India etc. Also in the forums and chats there were always stories like this, some were actually told by Ramose and Veos, some by the sub teachers and some by the students. Now it is logically to think that most of the stories originate from Ramose and Veos despite what Svatejassa tells in the last post, I mean they were right there on the chat with people telling fairy tales (unless someone used their account). I remembered Ramose also telling a story how he got to touch a spirit when he was outdoors, and when he touched it he became invisible and a female friend of his scremed because he vanished from her sight. Also he told how he deviated a tornado from the trajectory of his house, how fire bends to him when he does a fire ritual, how a black lodge attacked one of his close students once by somehow exploding the two tires of his car when he was on highway driving towards Ramose. Now all of this stuff and many more that I can’t remember were directly told in a chat room. I can only imagine what some of the locals might hear on daily basis. They must live in a fairy world if they believe everything the teachers told them.

You can only imagine that in that kind of environment what stories float about. The sub teachers also perpetuate this by claiming some of the stuff they hear from their teachers and so on…I remember there was one retreat when at the end after the farewells the van where a bunch of the students were hit the trees in like 50 meters after they left the parking, yet they all called Veos as their rescuer because he did some mudras around the car before they left. It was not the drivers fault for not having his van in good shape, it was someone attacking the school and Veos protecting it, therefore the accident was mild. You see how the cult personality is perpetuated?

 Now for the school proper they claim some great heritage all the way back to Plato and Socrates. I remember when the article that is now public got posted in the forums everybody acted like there was this big secret and what an elite order TDS is. I mean why the need for the lineage thing anyway? Ramose and Veos claim that they got “initiated” into many lineages, and had contact with lots of spiritual masters, so why the need of this overexageration with theurgy? Wouldn’t be more honest if this guys went like this: `` Look we practiced Aikido, meditation and we worked some IIH of Bardon, while we also read books about this and that tradition. We met Yogiraj Gurunath whom we are students of and he taught us this and that, another ``master`` taught us this technique and that exercise and so on. So we taught it would be nice  if we taught the exercises that we learned in some to the public by creating a system out of them. `` See no need for all that fairy tales that somehow theurgy was thought by Plato and was kept secret and scattered around the world until now when it is safe for it for being unveiled (how lucky we are right?). That way you are honest right from the start with people you are supposedly teaching and you could build the proper relationship of trust with him not lies and exagerations right from the start. What if you would take a math class and the math teacher would claim he was taught math by the direct descendents of Pitagora, Thales, Fermat, Gaudin and von Neumann and only the teacher can now unveil some hidden theorems of this great minds that were not made public. Now this teacher, if he cannot back up his claim, would be fired in 2 seconds from the school.

Also for the wannabe students, don’t expect to be catered for what is good for you only. Everybody has the same curriculum no matter what his experience is prior to joining TDS. You could meditate for years and do IIH up to step VIII let’s say, you will still be a probationer and do thought watching exercises for months. So maybe it would be good for the school to post an attention sign for all students that no matter their experience, they are newcomers and don’t know anything about mysticism, meditation and so on. Svatejasaa claims that the school teachers encourage everyone to read about other tradition and so on and the school has an open attitude towards this. But you will see when you are accepted that this is not the case. Sooner or later you will be told one way or another that the teachers know better than you, so you should listen to them because you came to them not the other way around. So your reading appetite will slowly fade in this climate where you are constantly under pressure that you are the lower rank so you know nothing, but you can know if you just stay with the school for who knows 5-10-50 years.
Also you see they throw the science word a lot. I don’t know how many of them are actually scientists or have a Phd. In some hardcore science subject, but what they do is no science at all. Religions don’t call themselves science, but this school somehow teaches spiritual ``science``. As a science you expect similar results and quantifiable as well from your experiments done in similar conditions. Now the teachers should right from the start clear all misconceptions that this is somehow a science (because it is not) and state the system they are teaching what are it’s goals, the timing it takes to reach the goal. How can you claim it to be a science when the teachers use expressions like the energy acts differently on you based on your personality, you may or may not reach gnosis this life and so on. That means that 2 different people doing the same exercises would get two different results. How is this science again?

Now there are some old students with Ramose and Veos for what like 8-9 years. How are they doing? Are they close to reaching the goal that TDS claims (Henosis) ? If not why not? Considering their teachers claimed 4 years ago they have glimpses of Henosis, taking into account their age at that time, they must have practiced for what 7-8 years at max. How much of this time did they practice what they are teaching? This is some series of questions that every practitioner has to ask his teachers before he joins? Why this school has not produced one single student who can claim similar things in the same amount of time it allegedly took Ramose and Veos to reach glimpses of Henosis? Maybe it is time to practice what they practiced instead? IIH and techniques from Yogiraj Gurunath and their other masters?

So all in all, I feel the school and specially the school’s teachers and sub teachers has a lot to grow and mature. They can stop telling fairy tales and stupid stories on gatherings and online, and become more mature without the need for idolizing themselves by telling everyone made up stories. Also they have to start and make their point clear that they do not allow fairy tales to be told in forum and on chats about them. Making statements that should be clear for everyone that they are normal people who just practice some mysticism and read a lot of books since they have no real job might also help. Stop the cult personality. Drop the lineage thing, there is no need to feel special by claiming you are part of some great lineage like it gives you more legitimacy ,than the results, of what you are teaching. Drop the science word, it’s catchy but it throws a lot of responsibility on your brand and claims. Openly admit whom these “masters” are and that your system has not produced until now not one single person whit whatever the system’s goals are. The people that stay with you after this will be loyal and open to learn . The others who go and learn from the “master” don’t need a teacher dooh. Cut the medicine and healings out of the school, it's a school not an hospital. Nobody is a doctor around there, neither has psychological studies and years of clinical practice. Make your lessons easier to read and shorter (much much shorter), instead of writing hundreds of pages repeating stuff and writing for pleasure, keep it short and sweet and also provide a list of bibliography and quote stuff you take from other sources, otherwise it's called plagiarizing. Keep it simple.

All in all this are some of the things that I needed to address, from the period I have been a student of this school. Also I think it would be a good idea for Ramose and Veos to openly admit or dismiss some of the allegations in this thread and the Facebook one since they are the schools headmasters after all. Why not man up and dismiss this things once and for all if they are not real?. Instead you get Svatejasaa as the schools PR person.   

Just so you can understand how the cult of personality is perpetuated inside the school let me quote Svatejasaa with his last post that was supposed to what? Clear the accusations from former students?
"Nor would the Hierophants have invited a Sufi from another lineage over to TDS a few times, as you yourselves all likely recall, who once also praised Ramose and Veos so highly because he said that in twenty years of traveling through the middle east and Asia, he had never met "any cats like Ramose and Veos."
-   Marketing and cult personality building and maintaing right there. What to add more?

I have only heard Ramose and Veos repeatedly talk about how they are fallible and NOT divine. Nor have I never heard either make proclamations about being divine, although I have seen some students treat them that way, even though they constantly insist on the contrary.
-   Maybe they need to insist more????? Like with muuuuuuuch more effort???? This is damaging to the students so why not do the extra effort????
 „Ironically, the two daskaloi who left TDS went to two different teachers, and both of them were the opposite: both of their new teachers are gurus who are worshipped as divine.  One of them decided to leapfrog Ramose and go learn from one of his old Kriya teachers, even though that teacher praises Ramose and Veos to be wonderful teachers and counts them among their best students (as other TDS members have personally asked him about to verify).
-   Cult personality building again. What does leapfrog mean ??? Did the daskaloi take death oaths to learn from Ramose and he felt „betrayed” because this student went to Yogiraj without Ramose’s approval ??? Need of control of private life and liberty is quite dangerous and not in the American spirit of liberty and democracy. Also Yogiraj’s style of teaching is close to Ramose and Veos. Creating fantastic stories and a cult personality. Just watch his youtube videos and keep a rational mind while wathcing this. The guy in a video goes into quantum physics and tries to impress the audience like he holds a Phd in subatomic particle studies. So how is Ramose and Veos one of his best students? Do they practice Kryia or Theurgy or a mix inbetween? What are this guys practicing after all ???

about Ramose - I can't blame him for teaching a system to you that he has known from the past to be so effective.
-   For how long. How long he has practiced what he is teaching in it’s current form? You guys have to make up your minds that if you start a new system and you alter techniques from here and there, everybody starts from fresh. A slight modification can be a big one after all so the results can vary from the original intent. Also no blame for the guy who claims to know healing remedies, but has zero practice and is no doctor.
However, they worked for me, and Ramose’s herbal advice (which is not professional medical advice) has rid me and countless other students from obscure medical issues that allopathic doctors could not resolve.
-   In support of an accusation you come with some cult building again. Nice. Also what if you would go to a doctor and made you worse, instead when confronted he would show you a list of people he cured. He must be a good doctor after all right ??? Nice tricks of logic here.
That is because Ramose and Veos are not making something up. They have their teachers and lineages, and have an exceptional knowledge of occultism. Of course, there is no one need to take my word for it. A quick look around Veritas, and the writings Prophecy and Veos produced as early teenagers, should be sufficient evidence that these were not people of ordinary knowledge.
-   Cult building points again, good for you. The writings are synthesis of other writings at best. Everybody who has done a proper school’s homework knows how to do reaserch online, in books and from other sources and write some synthesis and some conclusions to match. No need to get balooned like a turkey again. There are also other writers on Veritas, they are ordinary people I guess since they are not Ramose and Veos.

But the accusations aren't surprising. They are made against every contemporary spiritual teacher. All it takes is for a couple students with some ego issues to feel slighted in some way, and then they'll spread some toxic gossip.
-   Very nice words about ex-students. They have ego issues if they do not like the school – surely. Also just as a reminder there were students who actually made a sacrifice to come to US to meet Veos and Ramose, you know sacrifices like leaving their family for a couple of weeks, money spent left and right and so on. Surely they feel cheated since they invested so much money wise and emotional aswell but don’t badmouth them. You are supposed to be a balanced person, a role model, a person with equilibrium. Act like it.

PS: If you need to criticize my english skills I understand, it's not my primary language though.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 12:55:51 PM by KFT »

October 12, 2015, 12:55:56 PM
Reply #62

Akenu

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Just to point out. Some of what KFT talked about can be found in articles by Prophecy and Veos here, including the tornado thing. I have written few commentaries to their articles and specifically the tornado repelling I have labeled as "wishful thinking" and I was scolded for that as these are "old articles" and I am "attacking the person instead of being objective".

Regarding the lineage i have never gotten any proof from Prophecy or Veos, so I think that KFT is also on the right track there.

And regarding the "never produced any student close to anything they claim", this is not the first time I hear this, unfortunately this is the first time someone mentioned this publicly.

October 12, 2015, 01:36:43 PM
Reply #63

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Now as Beka said, there is this tendency of the head teachers to talk and let the answers in the air so to speak. For instance Veos was in chat one night and told one student , on the subject of Saint Germain, to practice diligently theurgy and who knows maybe the saint will come at your door. Also they said they touched the feet of immortal masters, who are not a part of this world, and other stuff like seeing a dead master in flash when he was meditating in India etc. Also in the forums and chats there were always stories like this, some were actually told by Ramose and Veos, some by the sub teachers and some by the students. Now it is logically to think that most of the stories originate from Ramose and Veos despite what Svatejassa tells in the last post, I mean they were right there on the chat with people telling fairy tales (unless someone used their account). I remembered Ramose also telling a story how he got to touch a spirit when he was outdoors, and when he touched it he became invisible and a female friend of his scremed because he vanished from her sight. Also he told how he deviated a tornado from the trajectory of his house, how fire bends to him when he does a fire ritual, how a black lodge attacked one of his close students once by somehow exploding the two tires of his car when he was on highway driving towards Ramose. Now all of this stuff and many more that I can’t remember were directly told in a chat room. I can only imagine what some of the locals might hear on daily basis. They must live in a fairy world if they believe everything the teachers told them.

Everything else aside, I just want to put it out there that in Traditional Magic in general, those sort of experiences aren't that abnormal. They are actually quite common in my current neck of the woods, which is primarily Traditional Witchcraft and Old World Wizardry. I have, almost entirely independent of anything TDS (since they never really encouraged "low" magick while I was there), had many similar experiences including visions of and journeys with my patron deity and other beings related to him, communicated and worked with deceased ancestors and deceased spiritual adepts who I sought guidance from, and learned many skills and tricks involving various applications of magical power. Including things related to invisibility, weather control, and magical warfare.

So regardless of what you think of TDS in particular, speaking objectively as an independent and (mostly) spirit-taught initiate, I'd ask you to be careful of dismissing those things as false in general. Real magick is a very potent art, and if you dismiss it out of hand, you will never properly learn it.



~:Shin:~
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 01:39:53 PM by Shinichi »
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October 12, 2015, 03:37:25 PM
Reply #64

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Quote from: KFT
Cult personality building again. What does leapfrog mean ??? Did the daskaloi take death oaths to learn from Ramose and he felt „betrayed” because this student went to Yogiraj without Ramose’s approval ??? Need of control of private life and liberty is quite dangerous and not in the American spirit of liberty and democracy.

I'm am providing my own personal account of this type cult personality and brainwashing through a personal exchange with my "master" at the time. Judge for yourself.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 04:29:22 PM by Trillis »

October 12, 2015, 04:08:04 PM
Reply #65

Nectar

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But the accusations aren't surprising. They are made against every contemporary spiritual teacher. All it takes is for a couple students with some ego issues to feel slighted in some way, and then they'll spread some toxic gossip.
-   Very nice words about ex-students. They have ego issues if they do not like the school – surely. Also just as a reminder there were students who actually made a sacrifice to come to US to meet Veos and Ramose, you know sacrifices like leaving their family for a couple of weeks, money spent left and right and so on. Surely they feel cheated since they invested so much money wise and emotional aswell but don’t badmouth them. You are supposed to be a balanced person, a role model, a person with equilibrium. Act like it.

I am the one known as Beka. I really didn't want to make anymore comments, but due to Svatejasaa's disgusting reply I will say something. Most of it has been said by KFT, and I would like to add onto his final point.

I commend KFT for seeing this, as he is very correct. Svatejasaa...''ego issues''...really? You have no idea what I've done. I have visited twice, a feat which was pretty difficult for someone in my position at that time. I forced myself to be humble for four years, while I was being indoctrinated with your nonsense, I completely gave away my ego for the teacher's and the system's sake, even though my conscience was telling me not to do, I did it nonetheless. I had so many burnouts because of your meditations, that I had lost count of it, and still I pushed myself and remained humble because the teachers said if you keep doing your practices everything would be alright. I went far and above the level of complete exhaustion, only to find that what you are offering is empty.
To visit for the first time  (16hr flight), I had to live meagerly, on a very tight budget of food and use of water, and I had to stop using the heating so I could save for the ticket to go to see the teachers. You have to understand, I live in an old apartment, so not turning on the heating meant often times I couldn't sleep properly because of the cold. I had very little clothes for myself, because again I was saving for the money to visit. I had to endure negative effects of the herbs that Ramose gave me on top of my own health problems, and the ridiculous astrological remedies Veos gave which had no effect. Yet, I remained humble.
These are just SOME of the examples as to what kind of effort I had put into humbling myself. Many times I felt treated unfairly but remained humble because of my belief in the teachers.

And now I'm hearing that what...we have ego problems? Shame on you for saying something like that, how dare you. Who do you think you are? So when I say that you have no idea what we have done, you really have not a clue. KFT is right in his last sentence, and I would like to add to that as well; before you judge other people on having big egos, look at those closest to you. I've seen a current Daskalos, directly participating and insinuating in gossip of a low kind. Namely, that of someone in the school having slept with one of the teachers, he was accusing this poor person. He went on a big rant. And you want me to see you as teachers? Teachers of what? I am not impressed by any of you, or your so called achievements, for good reason. I wipe my ass with it.
So I suggest you find the longest crowbar you can find, and pull your head out of your behind. Because right now you are spouting nonsense about ex-students.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 07:49:28 AM by Nectar »

October 12, 2015, 05:25:21 PM
Reply #66

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I can give no concrete proof of the following, and it is all pre-TDS, but I will share my story.

I was a student of Prophecy's starting from the Magick Class of 2004-2005, and chosen to be a "Teacher's Assistant" for the subsequent Magick Class.  The Magick Class that I attended is the same one that Trillis and Svatejasaa attended, along with several others.  Both of these went on to become "Daskaloi", and it is my understanding that if I had worked more at it, I would be one as well.  I never did become one, and after spending a week in August 2008 with Prophecy (while meeting Veos and a few of the other in-person students), we didn't really speak again.  I think we both knew that we weren't fit for the other after that visit.

There are a couple of things I noticed which struck me as odd.  Firstly, on September 22, 2004, he mentions "I have never, in my long years of teaching, failed to learn something new from a student".  Seems innocuous enough, until you keep in mind that he is ~25 years old (as attested to by others) in 2015.  In 2004, he would be ~14 years old, but we did not know that at the time.  We made our own assumptions that he was older.  There were other various claims during this time period, including the infamous 'tornado' story, but also other stories (which, granted, I'm going off of 10 year old memories, so bear with me) such as reading the works of Agrippa at the age of 3, and fending off "spiritual wolves" by Prophecy holding a magic circle while Veos performed so powerful a spell that he could not use his arm for a week afterward.  Also enjoyable was the story that as a young boy, he was so angry at his father that by placing his hands on a tree, he killed the tree.  These stories were given in chats in IRC during the 2004 Magic Class.  Quite fantastical, and these were stories he told us himself.

Secondly, seeing Trillis's screenshot saddens me as I've had similar encounters with Prophecy.  There was an email I had with him in 2008, when I wasn't "feeling it" any longer.  What followed was the most vitriolic reply that can be best described as "negging".  That I should absolutely be ashamed that I was straying from his path, that I shouldn't entertain the idea that I was wasting his time as that was an insult to him, and that he would not be allowed to have his time wasted by a small, flawed person such as I.  (I would provide this email for review if I had not deleted it.)  Additionally, we were told at the end of the Magic Class that any time anything like a breeze on a hot summer day brushed against us, that it was essentially a blessing from him as he was always watching over us.  He always seemed to already "know" about coincidences, etc, but never said anything about them until we brought them up.  There was always this never-directly-stated 'understanding' that Prophecy was this incredibly powerful, enlightened man, and if we were good enough students, we might someday be worthy enough of the Divine to be even a fifth of what he and Veos were.

Part of the reason why I visited him later that year was to "see for my own eyes" whether this man was the real deal.  When I visited, I enjoyed a fun game of Monopoly, I enjoyed some good cooking, I was told to work the garden because I was slightly jealous that one of his female students spent the night in his room (young male angst, what can I say).  What I did not see was the man I was honestly hoping to see.  I bring up the visit because this is the last frame of reference I have of this man, and at the end of the visit, he mentioned that he was starting an actual school.  This school would go on to become The Divine Science.

October 12, 2015, 06:35:07 PM
Reply #67

Peoples Champion

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Ego problem? I moved here from across the United States. We could’ve chosen another state with a better economy, but we uprooted our life for the divine science. We have even donated money, even if it was small, but to us it was a lot. The total amount is far less than others have given, but for us it was a lot as medical bills are not cheap.

Before this is used against me, I am going to bring it up. You see, when I actually did move here. I began to experience severe nerve pain. At the time I had no idea what was going on. But now that I have read even further into Chinese medicine, I actually do have an idea. I do know that if energy work is done improperly that it will actually harm someone severely. So why is it that when I begin to visit them and try the meditations a lot it begun to hurt?
I suffered for it for years and the thing that irritated me the most was the victim blaming attitude. Saying that due to how I was inside it somehow was causing my health to go bonkers.

To add to what you said that why is it for years nothing was said, oh I wanted to say something but once again since TDS cannot stand criticism and it is always silenced I always bit my tongue on it. I wanted it to work too, but again, saying they are so great made me think a lot that somehow I was wrong. He did give me an astrological remedy to help with the nerve pain which oddly enough did work out, but from what I am learning it seems more like it was to clean up his own mess. He didn’t know of course but this is what I am learning so far about gem use.

I am aware that those who are not familiar with Chinese medicine that this can sound quite literally insane, I will edit my post later to add the appropriate photos if anyone asks, I ask for patience though as I have to go through thousands of pages. I would rather not have to post it as that is a lot of work lol. But if I have to I will do it.


Then when I resumed working I got injured again and of course I was blamed, specifically that I was “always angry all the time, I’ve always had an anger issue.” My family knows I do not seep and stew in rage 24/7 a day, I was angry because of their bad advice and especially because I was told to do a standing posture which was making it worse but they always say “because it is hurting more that means it is healing” so all I did was make it worse. I was also very calm at work despite being in severe pain.

The fact you said they “might” have been wrong astonishes me as you cannot admit that they made an actual mistake. I was the one at fault to for not listening to my body and listening to them, so at the end of the day it is my fault in that sense. But being told to do something harmful, is extremely irresponsible. That is why I am upset and rightfully so.


As for the ego issue with Gurunath, I am going to guess this is because they told you so. I want you to take a good look at these 2 pictures. http://imgur.com/a/KCi7K


You see, they are actually going against Gurunath’s teachings. They will always say Gurunath supports them, but once again this is a lie. If anything they are going through that ego syndrome as mentioned here as they are not supposed to be teaching at all. I have been initiated into the Kriya. I did receive their pamphlet and when I saw these 2 pages, I begin to think that everything they said about Gurunath supporting them is also a lie. I would love to meet Gurunath someday to confirm my suspicion. But for now this is the best I can do. No one is exempted from the pamphlet, I do know people in HYS, and I know that quite a few of them can't stand Ramose and Veos, due to the what the pamphlet speaks of. 


So again, as the pictures are showing here and as Trillis showed as well, I want it to be shown, who is really suffering from the ego problem? The people who have encountered legitimate issues with the school? Or the ones resorting to personal attacks and deception?

October 12, 2015, 06:37:23 PM
Reply #68

Shankara

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I also want to ask about the money being charged and where it's going.  When I first visited the temple almost 4 years ago exactly, Veos said that we'd all be moving up to Tennessee in about 4 years, possibly five.  Four years have now gone by; how far along are they on saving up for this temple?  I don't begrudge them for charging dues, but since I joined they are charging more money for gatherings (originally $50, $20 for locals because many of us moved there so we could go to gatherings regularly and most were "financially impaired," now it's $100 for everyone), more for retreats (originally $300, now $450 with an 'optional $50 donation'), and they also take in money for workshops, for astrological readings, for herbal remedies, for the fundraiser blog, as well as for talismans, beads, and other TDS shop products.  Additionally some students send them monthly donations.  I know of one student who was sending them $1000 every month, and another who was sending them $400-$500 monthly.

They often talk about building the grand temple in the mountains. When they advertise for the retreats they mention that it is a fundraiser (partially) for the mountain temple.  There is a donation button on the site specifically to donate to the mountain temple:

http://imgur.com/2w3IMfm
 
Of course there are living expenses and temple upkeep (though no payment to the daskaloi who teach the classes, which is a huge part of the school), but after years of talking about this temple, where is the evidence it's ever going to happen? If people are donating using that button, there should definitely be some money set aside specifically for the mountain temple, and that should be made public.

A fellow student told me back in the Spring of 2013 that he suggested to Ramose and Veos that they put a graph up (like a thermometer) showing the progress being made towards the temple.  That never happened, and I haven't seen any transparency whatsoever about where the money is going, or if they are making progress on buying land.

October 12, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
Reply #69

Rodz

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The comment that supposedly started this whole chain of reviews was my comment that, in a certain post (EDIT: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22902.0.html) made a couple years ago, none of the negative posters there prior to a certain point were very involved in TDS. Somehow the following posters responded as if I had said that no students involved with TDS ever had a negative experience of it, which was not implicitly or explicitly stated.

My experience with TDS has been quite contrary to what some of the above posters described. If I had thought TDS was guilty of a quarter of its accusations here, I wouldn’t be a member. Recently talking with another teacher, we both agreed that we would not be students if we felt like this was true. I have never felt that the Hierophants implicitly or explicitly manipulated or lied to me, even for some “greater good.”

But the accusations aren't surprising. They are made against every contemporary spiritual teacher. All it takes is for a couple students with some ego issues to feel slighted in some way, and then they'll spread some toxic gossip.

At least in the case of TDS, the vast majority of the students are happy, as you can see in that post linked above,  and the group of students working against it is a small minority. This minority is about six people, including all the negative posters above, who are working together to try and smear it as it again opens its doors for new probationers.

TDS is not perfect, and it’s certainly not for everyone. As far as I can see, there is no air of superiority among other traditions, however. Ramose and Veos, and the daskaloi (class teachers), regularly praise other traditions for various things. If TDS was elitist, you wouldn’t see Ramose and Veos and the daskaloi regularly reading scripture from other traditions each weekend at the temple, and praising their masters and practices. Nor would the Hierophants have invited a Sufi from another lineage over to TDS a few times, as you yourselves all likely recall, who once also praised Ramose and Veos so highly because he said that in twenty years of traveling through the middle east and Asia, he had never met "any cats like Ramose and Veos."

The whole idea of “guilting” students into that they will be “punished for lifetimes” for leaving is also a fabrication. Ramose has kindly encouraged multiple students to leave the school because he thought it would not benefit them, and they did so gracefully.

I have only heard Ramose and Veos repeatedly talk about how they are fallible and NOT divine. Nor have I never heard either make proclamations about being divine, although I have seen some students treat them that way, even though they constantly insist on the contrary. That is why I like Ramose and Veos. Ironically, the two daskaloi who left TDS went to two different teachers, and both of them were the opposite: both of their new teachers are gurus who are worshipped as divine.  One of them decided to leapfrog Ramose and go learn from one of his old Kriya teachers, even though that teacher praises Ramose and Veos to be wonderful teachers and counts them among their best students (as other TDS members have personally asked him about to verify). Some people need to feel like they have a divine teacher, even though, from what I have seen of  either teacher, neither seems truly perfect.

I would argue that Ramose and Veos are quite contrary to Mathers & Crowley. They are completely different in how they teach and their behavior. Whereas Crowley was experimenting with drugs, having orgies and the like, Veos is, and always has been, completely sober, devotional and quite conservative person who grew up in a conservative part of the US, and his writing style has nothing at all in common with Crowley.

Here’s the thing about past lives. It is an important part of becoming a magician to know "where you came from," and our school (as of the new system) has techniques to help that process. Truthfully, Ramose and Veos very seldom talk about their past lives. When they do, it’s usually after students have performed a past life meditation through the akasha. Afterwards, people typically share their experiences. Their memories sometimes reveal Ramose and Veos' past lives, and rarely the Hierophants talk about their own lives in reference to the memories students have. They are not sitting on a throne saying, “I was person XYZ, behold my glory!” And honestly, Ramose and Veos hold a fairly low opinion of the Golden Dawn. They would never brag about being Mathers/Crowley, in fact they would not be proud of that.

Finally, Ramose and Veos do not consider their students to be the "elite" souls. They call anyone who practices magic an "old soul," because magic is an art that typically only spiritually inclined people (i.e. older souls) are attracted to. Ramose and Veos once taught the daskaloi a particular daoist technique, and after showing us how to do it for an hour, commented: "And just in case you guys ever think you are accomplished meditators, the Daoists from which this technique comes would not perform it for less than three days consecutively." With comments like that, it's clear that they do not see even their most advanced students (or themselves) as some "elite" beings.


People’s Champion,

Ramose might have made a mistake with you by believing standing postures would heal you when they wouldn’t. That is truly unfortunate because I wish you could have felt what I and many others did with the practices. But we have to remember that he isn't perfect and sometimes he does make mistakes. Even if a great spiritual teacher tells you to do something like standing postures and it begins hurting you terribly, I would think you should stop regardless of what he advises. That’s part of being a reasonable person: your health is your responsibility and the responsibility of your licensed medical professional.

I can't blame him for teaching a system to you that he has known from the past to be so effective. I'm sorry that some of the techniques didn’t work for you, or that you were recommended them when an injury conflicted, and I really would have liked to see them cure your issues. However, they worked for me, and Ramose’s herbal advice (which is not professional medical advice) has rid me and countless other students from obscure medical issues that allopathic doctors could not resolve. Moreover, as you yourself mentioned, he apparently even told you to stop the practices later, so in my limited view, it seems like he had your interest in mind.

Any teacher is liable to make mistakes; no one is perfect. However, as someone who has performed the techniques and has taught them to over a hundred people, I know that for virtually everyone they have a very positive impact. I don’t need to tell you this; all of the people making negative posts here know that the vast majority students in the school have experienced powerful healing and spiritual evolution as result of the practices.

The internal alchemy techniques TDS teaches are effective. If a student is not already in decent health with a stable psyche or perform them incorrectly, they can exacerbate some issues. That is why as teachers, we try to wait to teach those techniques until we are confident a student is at that point. Sometimes we may make a mistake. This is also why techniques like these are generally not taught to the public.

The internal alchemy techniques TDS teaches are not unique. They are found all over the world in various traditions, only altered in slight ways. Upon initiating students into the higher practices, none of which the above posters so far were, the Hierophants gave us, the daskaloi, the names of the techniques in other traditions and told us where they came from. Even on my own, I know of a famous, contemporary Buddhist lineage that teaches a simplified form of the Vision of the Angel as their main beginner practice, and several students who have found other, higher level TDS techniques in other traditions too (e.g. the steaming process utilized in one of the sanctuary meditations). That is because Ramose and Veos are not making something up. They have their teachers and lineages, and have an exceptional knowledge of occultism. Of course, there is no one need to take my word for it. A quick look around Veritas, and the writings Prophecy and Veos produced as early teenagers, should be sufficient evidence that these were not people of ordinary knowledge.

The claim that TDS lacks compassion is also very contrary to what I have experienced. Any time I check our facebook page, for example, someone is sharing a difficulty they are having in life, and dozens of people are responding with encouraging and caring remarks. Ramose and Veos are also among the kindest and most compassionate people I have met.

I find it funny you edited this out, trying to discredit Trillis.

http://i.imgur.com/2QSWR0w.jpg

Here is a pic of Trillis with Ramose after initation.

http://i.imgur.com/JvUracV.jpg

And here is a pic of everyone except Svatejasaa

http://i.imgur.com/3BsB3Ir.jpg

Svatejasaa, you are the one who had a private initiation during the big retreat in the mountains.



I posted this to show a shining example of the lying that goes on in the school. You edited this out before I could call you out on it, but thanks to the wonders of technology, I took a screenshot before you edited that out!  :wink:

The teachers said they can make mistakes. Yet oddly enough I don't see them own up to their lies and mistakes. This trickles down to the other teachers as everyone just witnessed. Will you admit that you just tried to discredit an ex-teacher through a lie?

What will you say in regards to this? That I photoshopped it? Or will you do the right thing and own up to the fact you just tried to lie?

October 12, 2015, 06:50:38 PM
Reply #70

Trowa

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The use of the above pictures have been approved by Trillis, after some quick discussions in PM.

October 12, 2015, 06:57:47 PM
Reply #71

Svatejasaa

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I wish I had the time and energy to respond to everyone, but I don't. Even if I could muster it, I know my words would only set more people against me with each post, as my ability is far lacking there.

I do not mean to suggest that every ex-student of TDS has "ego-issues". Again, I did not say that, as I did not say the previous remark that people blew out of proportion. I said, as you can see from my last post, that that a couple students with ego issues can start a toxic thing, which is what I believe has happened in TDS with its latest movement. Some people here are not part of it, and hate TDS for their own reasons, obviously.

Rodz,

I got Trillis confused with Trowa_Sinclaire. I should apologize for my slip of memory with usernames that I have not thought of several years. As you can see from Trowa's post, the person I described there was Trowa, not Trillis. Trowa was involved with learning (with me) from Ramose but left before TDS started, and I thought he was claiming to be a daskalos of TDS. Thankfully, someone reminded me that it was the other way around, that Trillis was the daskalos, so I removed it.

October 12, 2015, 07:20:04 PM
Reply #72

Trowa

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I think, in the end, we're all happy that I'm not a duskalos, and I wouldn't claim to be one.  :)

October 12, 2015, 07:50:15 PM
Reply #73

Shankara

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You see, they are actually going against Gurunath’s teachings. They will always say Gurunath supports them, but once again this is a lie. If anything they are going through that ego syndrome as mentioned here as they are not supposed to be teaching at all. I have been initiated into the Kriya. I did receive their pamphlet and when I saw these 2 pages, I begin to think that everything they said about Gurunath supporting them is also a lie. I would love to meet Gurunath someday to confirm my suspicion. But for now this is the best I can do. No one is exempted from the pamphlet, I do know people in HYS, and I know that quite a few of them can't stand Ramose and Veos, due to the what the pamphlet speaks of. 

I've met Gurunath three times.  The first time was at a private home in New Jersey.  I had time to talk with him a bit as at that time the only people in the room were me, my husband, 2 other students, and Gurunath. We told him that we were "Chris and Dan's" students from Florida.  We were expecting him to recognize those names, as we'd been told how close they are to him, but he didn't.  Yes, they are Hamsacharyas, but there are hundreds of those.  They are not Kriyacharyas, which is the higher level. 

I found out about Gurunath not from Ramose and Veos, but by seeing on facebook that many of the students were posting things about him.  I looked him up and on his site I see Ramose and Veos listed on the site as teachers (they've since requested that HYS take down their information and photos, though they still did initiations in Tampa and Orlando as of 2014).  I was shocked because they never mentioned this teacher at all, and also because it was obviously a public teacher who wants students and comes to the US every year.  He actually says he wants everyone to do the Kriya. 

I asked a TDS student about Gurunath, and it got back to Ramose.  The next time I went to a gathering, Ramose took me outside alone as soon as I got there.  I was told that I had to choose; if I wanted to follow Gurunath I'd have to leave the school. They're supposed to be teachers of Kriya yoga, representatives of Gurunath, yet they're telling me I can't follow him?  I understand if it has to be kept separate from the school, but to forbid me from following him outside the school is ridiculous.  Especially because they had most of the Flow A students get initiated into Gurunath's organization, but now it's a forbidden topic.  I told him I chose TDS, and he asked me not to tell any other students about Gurunath.  Gurunath actually visited Florida in 2013.  Only the Daskaloi and I were 'allowed' to go see him.  There were other local students who had been initiated into the Kriya, but they weren't even told about it.  We didn't tell anyone because they made it sound like it was a extremely private gathering.  When we got to the home where Gurunath was giving the lecture, we realized that although it was not an official event (so it wasn't on the website), all the initiates from Orlando knew about it and were invited. There were a lot of people there; there were probably initiates from all over Florida.  There was no reason to keep it a secret from the TDS students who were Kriya initiates.   

As far as them not listening to him, when they came back from his ashram in India in 2013, Ramose told us that Gurunath asked them to stop giving transmissions, so they were going to stop.  They did...for a month or two. Then they resumed. They did stop giving Shaktipat ("opening of the mouth") for a while (maybe they still don't give it).  They say they merged it with Shivapat ("opening of the eye").  They did this before they went to India, because at the Fall 2012 retreat the transmission got out of control.  People were crying and frightened.  Veos admitted he lost control of that transmission.  So they stopped doing such intense ones after that.  They will also talk down about Gurunath, calling him "a racist old man." They basically make it sound like they have a Yoga teacher, a Taoist teacher, a Sufi teacher, etc., all just to get the initiatory lineages, but that they are greater than their teachers in a lot of ways because they are "Fountains," which means that they reignite a lineage from nothing (I'm not sure of the exact wording of the definition).  They say they learned almost nothing from Gurunath, besides "how to be a teacher," but actually an incredible amount of the 'secret' teachings they give during lectures are straight out of Gurunath's books and Youtube videos.

Someone might try to say they are an exception to the rules in that pamphlet that People's Champion posted.  But I have a video from 2008 or 2009 where Ramose and Veos are talking to the Daskaloi and a few visitors.  In it they say that Kriya yoga is the ONLY technique you will ever need.  They go on to tell them that they aren't ready yet, that maybe in 6 months they'll be ready to get initiated.  This is ridiculous, anyone can be initiated at any time.  They also say that Gurunath will be their parama-guru, and they (Ramose and Veos) will be their gurus (totally against the instructions of Gurunath, as People's Champion has posted).  At the end of the video, taken during the same weekend, Ramose is making a video privately to send to HYS.  There was a contest where people sent in videos to win a trip to Mahashivaratri in India with Gurunath.  In that video Ramose mentions his 'ashram' but says that he is NOT a guru, just "someone a little farther ahead on the path." Completely different then what they were actually telling their students, and shows that they do not have special rules that apply to them, or he would not have lied in the video.  In case you were wondering, he didn't win the trip. 

Also, watching the video now, it's obvious that what they were lecturing on was from Gurunath's book on Bababji ("Lightening Standing Still").  No one there had read the book yet, and were taking furious notes, as Ramose and Veos were acting like this was their own knowledge.  I might be able to post the video if someone wants to see it, but it's not mine and the person that owns it is trying to stay out of all this.  I could probably do it privately if someone is interested. 

October 12, 2015, 08:27:59 PM
Reply #74

Phosphor

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Hey all - this is Demophon, or Brandon,

Just realized I still had an account here.. it's my second account, as my first one many many years ago had many more posts :)

Honestly, tears are running down my face from reading these posts.. and it takes a lot to make me cry - I think the last time was watching Les Miserable hah. All I ever saw were the happy, smiling, laughing faces of you all and it hurts greatly that such things are being said without first coming and talking about it in person first. I would have talked to anyone had they come to me. I am truly sorry for any hurt that has come from your time spent with us. I am not sure if you would believe me if I could vouch for the teachers, but all I can tell you is that I personally only teach and work for the school with the students in mind... and I lose a lot of time and sleep doing it. Definitely isn't making me healthier, and tonight not much happier.

Remember we are all human.

Sincerely,
Brandon