Author Topic: The Divine Science Probationer Enrollment now open (August 5, 2013)  (Read 34444 times)

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October 09, 2015, 08:37:26 AM
Reply #45

Shankara

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A Daskalos is one of the ten (now eight) students directly under Ramose and Veos.  Basically they were the ones who stayed from their first group of students. Most of them were/are teachers of the TDS classes.  They also supposedly take on TDS karma for Ramose and Veos, such as during a retreat.

I should have been more clear; all the students (including the Daskaloi) I mentioned who left did so because of problems they encountered in the school, meaning the abuses perpetrated by the Hierophants (some also left because of physical and mental/spiritual problems caused by the practices or remedies given). Now I readily admit that many students are fine with their behaviors, don't consider them to be abusive or immoral, and excuse (IMO) very questionable behaviors away as them doing what they have to do to complete their divine mission to save Western Spirituality (in addition to other reasons/excuses). But others aren't OK with how they treat their students and I wanted to make it known that those (former) students exist too.

I found TDS on this site several years ago, and then, like now, there were no reports of anyone close to the school or the Hierophants having any bad experiences with them. So I was not as aware as I should have been.  Perhaps I would've still joined the school had I known, but I would've had my eyes open a little wider going in. Instead I thought they were divine masters, because that's what they claim to be once you're around them enough. They come here and claim they want you to question them and their students say that they're not masters or gurus, but once you visit enough and especially if you're a local student, they do claim to be masters in Henosis (beyond Gnosis/Enlightenment). They claim a lot of things about themselves. Because of these claims many questionable behaviors are justified or simply ignored.  These behaviors unfortunately do trickle down to the rest of the school; many of these behaviors are seen in the closer students, and in the school culture as a whole. For instance, there is a lot of gossip and infighting amongst the closer students, and this isn't just political drama that would be exist in any organization; it's often begun by the Hierophants themselves.

I'm sure you'll get the other side of this story from some passionate TDS students (or Hierophants) soon enough.  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:38:05 PM by Shankara »

October 09, 2015, 08:56:04 AM
Reply #46

Pax_Valeos

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Shankara,

It all sounds quite strange, and it's hard to know not having known either of them personally or witnessed any of it. I realize there are two sides to every story. I read the story on Facebook about the brother's Rodriguez and I felt like they had unreasonable expectations for the Hierophants and teachers, but again, as a complete outsider, it's very hard to say.

It will be interesting to hear what Svatesajaa, whom I assume is a Daskalos, has to say about these things.

I do thank you for sharing your perspective, as one should always exercise investigation when doing anything worthy of one's time.

October 09, 2015, 08:58:33 AM
Reply #47

Akenu

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I think this is slowly going where that old thread went...
Yes, it is true that not every student is cut out for the same school and people will love/hate and stay/leave for various reasons, but mentioning all this is actually what objectivity is about. So Shankara isn't actually attacking anyone, he is just keeping it objective....


Hell, I really need to write the article

October 09, 2015, 09:43:54 AM
Reply #48

Shankara

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If you're considering joining the school, ask yourself how you view Mathers and Crowley.  Do you see them as enlightened adepts?  Egomaniacs? Ipsissimi? Users and abusers? Powerful magicians? Demon conjurers? Charismatic Liars/Exaggerators? Brilliant scholars?  Controlling Dictators? Members of the Great White Brotherhood? Maybe some combination of the above?

Some people love them (look at all the Thelemites and Golden Dawn orders out there), some people hate them, and some people think they're a mixed bag. The reason I'm saying this is because what you get with Prophecy and Veos is exactly what you would get with Mathers and Crowley (besides the heroin :P), for better or worse.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 09:47:59 AM by Shankara »

October 09, 2015, 12:50:41 PM
Reply #49

Shankara

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I'm about to post a message from one of the former students I mentioned who have left. His name is Beka and he's from the Netherlands (English is not his first language). I asked him if he wanted to post here, as he posted on the Facebook thread quite a bit before it all got deleated. He didn't want to make an account here but he did want to tell his story, so he wrote this up and gave me permission to post it here. He was my fellow student in the Aspirant Flow B class and I met him when he visited the temple. I didn't change or edit anything and these are his words, not mine. 

Here is his post:
----------------------------------------------

I was a part of the school for four years. Some nasty four years in my opinion. I will keep it short and to the point. There are a lot of things about TDS that are questionable. I've visited their location in Florida twice.

The teachers offered me remedies. One in the form of astrological remedy, which I had to do daily. This had no effect on my life whatsoever. The other was herbal remedies. As I did my practices with the utmost of effort and discipline, my health started to decline. One of the teachers perscribed me herbs, which I took for over a year. After about 6 months I told them that it probably had a negative effect on me, because my health kept declining and I was getting more and more exhausted, but the teacher said to just keep taking them. So after a year of taking these herbs, I was utterly fed up and sent him a message about it, to which he replied to finally stop taking it if it had a bad effect on me. He also said I should've been grateful that he even considered to help me with his herbs. Also, I forgot to mention, in the same time he also gave me a different set of herbs that messed up my sex drive, it was bizzare, that's all I can say. When I stopped taking that, I turned back to normal. But when I stopped taking the herbs (which I took for over a year), the ''getting clean'' part was difficult and lasted a month or so, because I think my body was so used to taking that stuff for an extended period of time that it had to readjust itself to normal.

As you can see, they have little to no idea what they are doing when they are trying to help people. I've heard from other people that whatever they perscribed did work. Thus, you can gauge their level of knowledge as not being reliable, and in fact can be quite dangerous.

Now for the psychological aspect of the school. For this reason alone should you be on your guard if you are planning to join as a new recruit. For the simple fact that they use subtle psychological ways of influencing you. I will try to explain here what I mean by that. Anyone who knows anything about Implicit Marketing will know what I'm talking about. With implicit marketing, or implicit remarks, you are trying to convey something, a product or an idea, by telling a story from which people can come to the conclusion by themselves that it is indeed a good product or idea.  With implicit use of conveying you are not directly telling what you want to the person, but you are doing it in an indirect way. It is more sublte this way, hence the potency. If you are telling something indirectly, you are making people think for themselves that they want to buy into what you are offering.

Thus, when you join the school, you have to understand that you are seeking something after all, whether it is love or God or whatever you want to call it. You are missing something, that's why you seek, correct? So, once you join the school they will use implicit stories to fill that void you have. And you have to udnerstand that a lot of people that are a part of that school are broken people, coming from broken families, etc. So this will work more powerfully on a person like that.

What you will hear is all sorts of stories about the head teachers and the sub teachers, and most of the time, you will not hear it coming out of their mouths, instead you will hear it coming from other people. For it is much more powerful to have other people talk greatly about you than for you to talk greatly about yourself. Do you see how implicit (indirect) they are working on you?

You will hear stuff like how Ramose and Veos are reincarnations of MacGregor Mather and Aleister Crowley, respectively. And other such incarnations of highly evolved beings such as John Dee and whatnot, and even some historical figures, such as prominent figures from ancient times like Ancient China and Sparta. You will also hear how great the sub teachers are, and of course, they are also reincarnations of very high beings, and they fit perfectly into the stories of Crowley, Mathers, etc. This is what they are saying, I'm not making this up. So immediately, the mind of a seeker of spiritual knowledge gets hooked into the greatness of the teachers. But it doesn't end there, no no. They go beyond that; they say how grand and ancient the lineage is, how many great masters were part of that lineage such as Franz Bardon, Plato, Socarates, etc. That the teachers are always in contact with the Great White Brotherhood, and other great beings from high spiritual planes. And somehow...these stories end up being gossiped about, to make it more potent, because like I said, it is much more powerful to have other people talk about your greatness. It's like you get social proof from other people telling you, so you feel more comfortable to accept that idea. They say themselves that they are implanting a ''seed'' inside of you the moment you begin their meditations.

And once they are done doing that, they want you to think highly of yourself, because it isn't enough for only them just to be great. No, they will say that everyone who is a part of that school is a ''High Soul'' - a being very much evolved, much more so than the majority of the people of the world. And how their system works much better than other systems of magic and mysticism. That Franz Bardon's IIH was somehow meant to direct recruits to their school. So naturally, with everything being said, it is very easy to believe in them as a newcomer.

They say some ridiculous stuff. For example Ramose once said he climbed a water tower and meditated upon it. A Daskalos confronted him about it , because he knew it was  a lie, to which Ramose agreed that yes it was a lie. All this childish stuff. It's nonsensical. They have delusions of grandure, those people. I've heard from one of their ex-disciples that the teachers and sub-teachers compare these lies to the lies God, so that they do it for the greater good. They compare it to the lie God tells by creating an illusionary world. I would be very careful with these people.

The people that are a part of the school have already fallen into their pitfall of psychological influence. It is incredibly difficult to leave, because the longer you are there, the longer you have been conditioned into their nonsense. Thus your attachment to them grows stronger and stronger. The people already there love the teachers too much, so much so that they sugarcoat the negative aspects.

The teachers will say stuff like how they want you to become like a spiritual lion, but it's nonse because a lot of people's progress and character development are dependant on the teachers. They also show it in their mannerism and I've seen how people react and act in their presence. It's a mental and emotional crutch and they will never become ''lions'' as they so boldly claim they are. That is their pitfall. And if you ever leave the school, they will say you are misguided, that you've made a mistake, and that you werent ''ready'' for their teachings. What a joke. So just the idea of leaving the school will make you feel very insecure, because all the arrows are seemingly pointing towards the teachers and their system being the true way to development. You will feel very conflicted,and it's only natural because you've spent so much belief, faith, and energy into something that is actually nonsense, and part of your identity was associated with the school.

It was difficult for me too when I left. But after a while I managed to make progress on my own in a relatively short time, and I didn't need to be part of some grand and ancient lineage to do that. Once I made progress by myself, I laughed those TDS nonsense away, because I did in 6 months by myself what I couldn't do in four years during my stay at the school. And if I can do it, so can you.

Once you pierce through the veil of illusion presented, you can only laugh at TDS. There is no need to be part of such a school, but if you are curious and still want to check them out, be careful of the pitfalls.

The amount of gossip that goes on in that school is absolutely ridiculous. People there use and abuse each other, and then hide behind hypocritical terms such as brotherly and sisterly love. It's all a bunch of bullshit. There are so many social intrigues...

Their argument for that is that it's all karma, and because everyone in the school is such a ''high Soul'' it is only natural that gossip and the like occurs. In fact, they say this occurs in many spiritual schools, where students use and abuse others to get favors from the teachers, etc. I mean...sigh...if this is true, then why in the world would you want to be part of something like that? There is no need to go a designated spot simply to suffer abuse and the like...you can already get the same bullshit from the secular society. So why accept such childishness?

I could go on, but this will suffice. I think it is important to lay out the truth so you can make a decisions yourself. I wish you all the best.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:56:07 PM by Shankara »

October 09, 2015, 10:26:02 PM
Reply #50

Kemetin

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So if no students who visited or were more then surface-level students have problems with the school, it's a commentary on how good the school is, but if multiple advanced students have problems with the school and leave, it's no commentary on the merits of the school?

People are free to decide whether or not it is a commentary on the school.  I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding that has been brought up both here and on another thread.

Regarding the bolded section, I never said that, as the post you're replying to is my first input into this discussion. You should avoid the mistake of grouping everyone who disagrees with you together and assuming they all hold the same beliefs and points of view.

Speaking for myself, I don't think people leaving at any level is a commentary on the quality of the school, it's just a fact of life. Turnover and attrition happen in any group of individuals. Expecting an organization of any sort to gather members but never lose them is absurdly unrealistic. The only case in which it could be perceived as a commentary on the quality of the organization is if the rate of attrition exceeded the rate of intake for an extended period of time, indicating an eventual collapse of the organization presumably instigated by some kind of deep seated institutional inherent problem, or if the attrition all took place at a certain level or time frame of the organization, indicating that there was some kind of barrier in length of membership or progression within the organization which individuals were hitting and unable to surpass. Neither appears to be the case here.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:44:28 AM by Kemetin »

October 10, 2015, 11:18:22 AM
Reply #51

Peoples Champion

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Do note that during this entire post, I will be referring to the images on the following link http://imgur.com/a/Cbx98. In this way, it is much more organized.

Sadly, I am putting my MRI results, that is reference to image 1 because, students of the divine science have a tendency to blame health issues making it seem psychological strictly. So I am posting this to show you that I do have tendinosis in one of my tendons, as well as arthritis. This is so if anyone tries to say it is in my head, I am showing you that is not the case.

Now, I am showing number two, in order to display to you, Chinese energetic medicine. And I am going to be strictly talking from that perspective. The reason being, is because I have noticed the students in the thread that was deleted, had a severe tendency to make it seem that this was just a “system” and not cold hard science. Chinese energetic medicine has had MULTIPLE studies done upon it. To greatly summarize it, it is more or less the science of how internal energy works. It has an actual international school as well. To the point, it even talks about how some Reiki healers have actually made cancer worse because they do not know what they are working with. The author does have the studies he talks about with the books and more of the research is being translated day by day.


In image number 3, you actually see why the practices do harm multiple students, I was one of them. It has nothing to do with faith in the teachers which they tend to push very hard, it is an actual science. Considering how long Chinese medicine has been around, clearly this isn’t in the first time this has happened.

TDS Counter argument: The student did not have enough faith in the system nor the teachings which is why nothing happened to them.

As you can see, in the last two images, including the second one, faith does play a part, but not to the extreme degree they always push. A glass of alcohol doesn’t have sentience. You simply project the energy, purify it and it is done. Considering as well, that the knowledge has been used in martial arts, and can be used for great destructive purposes, including on a hard-core atheist. You do not have the believe that gravity is real, you’re going to see the effects of it all the time, it is a hard science. If I drop a rock, it is not suddenly going to fly to the sky and into space. That is not how the science of gravity works.

The reason I posted the above counter argument, is because I notice within that thread (the one that had 250 replies and was deleted), I had to repeat myself multiple times, to the point personal attacks were attempted. I say attempted because once again, they are very prone to always blaming the students and never ever admitting that they are at fault. Excessive heat, can cause a multiple host of issues. I am only going to be talking for my perspective as how it affected me and another student, as I am still learning this, and I am actually seeing an actual medical qigong doctor. The root cause, of my health issues, is a car accident I suffered years ago. The governing and conception vessels within my body is actually damaged. Which is why when I tried these practices, I was in pain, and sadly I was stupid enough to keep on pushing through that pain, and make my pain worse, because they always emphasize that these are “healing you” when really the pain was because my body was telling me to stop, which is, you know, why pain exists in the human body, to tell you something is wrong.


There was also, another student who when he did the exercises his nerves were actually getting destroyed. Me, him, Beka, and a few other students actually did talked to me privately stating that the practices were hurting them.


TDS Counter argument: They do teach grounding exercises. You pushed yourself too hard and went in at your own risk.


Facts: they actually do not teach anything remotely grounding. The closest thing it comes to that, is a moon practice, which is not supposed to be done when it is a cloudy day, as you will actually bring turbid energy into your body. You also cannot do it on a new moon, you cannot do it on an eclipse, and if the sky has to be clear, you’re going to limit a large amount of people who can do it.

When they did teach the moon practice, they do not mention any of the above. I learned this through Chinese energetic medicine. Another person, has even said that just thought control itself is grounding, when again, that is not the case. If thought control was actually grounding, it would be a standard prescription exercise for those suffering from this specific problem. I will not deny, that thought control grounds the mind, but to say it’s going to also ground your energy is highly erroneous. A working system keeps the energies in balance and you do not risk wrecking your health doing it. If they do know internal alchemy as they claim to, then it has to be highly flawed is what I am saying.

I can confirm from an acupuncturist that a student that was seeing her also noticed just how bad his health was as well, so she was concerned about the practices within the school. Not violating patient confidentiality as this person told one of the former teachers who has left.

TDS Counter argument: That just means your pulse is becoming deeper! It is starting to go to the spine.

Not the case at all, when you are healthy your pulse (Chinese medicine diagnosis) will not begin to sound like garbage, it will actually begin to become stronger.   



TDS Counter argument: People need different systems, the system isn’t for everyone.

Once again, I am going into the science of how energy works, actually explaining why it has hurt people. The counter arguments I have listed, have actually been said by students, and have been actually repeated multiple times. The irony is not lost on me that I am using science, and have used faith to try to counter me, especially from an organization called The Divine Science. I know no system is perfect, but if they claim to be a Daoist linage, and they are using energy on people, they better know how to use that energy or they are going to hurt people like they already have. If you really are as amazing as you claim to be, you better be damn prepared to back up that claim.



You will see fellow students even saying I should be “grateful” for what they done even though they have brought a lot of pain to me. The community is also abhorrent as well, as Beka has already stated. Only 2 people were really here for me during the worst times of my life (these people also left the school as well), as the great TDS thing to say is to have no compassion and just say “it’s karma.”



I was not looking for pity at all. I was looking for a good community, and clearly I was mistaken. The highly dysfunctional community is already rampant in society as Beka has stated, why on Earth would one want to join a school who does the exact same thing.  Everything that Beka has stated I have seen with my own eyes many times, it’s insane.


TDS counter argument: You weren’t visiting that often as a local so as a result were not benefitting from the exercises!

Refer to the images I posted on faith and what pain actually is. The transmissions they did give would hurt like hell for me, I hated getting them but once again, I kept on trying as the implicit statements and even direct they keep on saying is insane. Talking about how other people were healed with what they taught, told me to do a STANDING POSTURE ON A DAMAGED TENDON! My medical qigong doctor knows how stupid that is! Because they always spout the human body is apparently like Wolverine and if you just do what they say it will heal anything! They did know I had a type of trauma, it wasn’t specific as I hadn’t gotten the scan done but once again, if something didn’t heal naturally for months, clearly this isn’t just some minor injury, it doesn’t take a doctor to see that, and they push the standing postures HARD even though a posture by itself won’t do anything unless you direct the energy in a specific way as I recently learned, making it seem like a panacea to my foot/leg issues.


The reason I also posted the last 2 images was also to mention that yes in Chinese Energetic medicine the patient's psychology is also heavily worked on, and people who do know me know damn well the last thing I wanted was to stay sick. It is also to show how faith matters but to a point, not to the extreme degree TDS always spouts.


I did go visit when I could as again, I was in severe pain http://www.dvcipm.org/site-images/DVPRSv20.jpg I am showing to give you an idea, it was an 8-10, I would not be able to sleep for days it was pretty terrible. When I was there I was very exhausted.



As I said Beka did an amazing job of covering everything. One thing though, that has to be mentioned, is the use of fear tactics. They have said, that if you leave them, your soul will punish you for multiple lifetimes, as this is your jewel incarnation and that if you leave them you will go through multiple lives suffering immensely and not finding a teacher. They will even say that they will have to do multiple fire rituals for that poor lost lamb just to alleviate their future suffering! As if they are taking some gigantic and great burden when you leave as now they must also lessen your punishment of what you will go through making themselves out to be some sort of martyr.


This is the exact same fear tactic used by Christians in regards to hell, so as a result, it is very effective. It pressures you so you cannot leave because you always think in the back of your mind “what if they are right?”

I have been in the school for about 4 years as well, and I was also a local student as well for most of that time, as I have seen everything he has mentioned with my own eyes on top of what else I am speaking about. I wasn’t just someone who was in the probationer class only, I was in the first aspirant flow group.

Due to all of this, I really cannot recommend anyone to join the divine science. You are free to join of course as I can’t stop anyone, but you do so at your own risk.
 I will also be mentioning something in the internal alchemy thread as medical qigong (again the science of how energy works) is internal alchemy. So I’ll say something about it there, if anyone is interested. Not going to push it at all. Just using it as a reference point since it is very scientific.

I had to place the counter arguments as this has been used by them multiple times and I would rather save people time by just having it listed here. Now if something different could be said, that’s fine but I haven’t seen that yet to be honest. It is usually just a repeated variance of what they have already stated.


Anyways I wish everyone the best, may you find happiness wherever it brings you in life.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:31:26 PM by Peoples Champion »

October 10, 2015, 02:30:29 PM
Reply #52

Akenu

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Well, when we have moved to a little bit more serious note, I might have also mentioned this (it's going to be in the article anyway). This is from the personal communication with one of the TDS members.

Quote from: IIHBuddy89
Also the olimpus meditations are perfectly safe since we are working with the 'astral light'  and it has a very nice balancing and purifying effect so how this can be addictive (are you think it's addictive because it works? that's pretty stupid)

I would like to mention that Astral light isn't balancing at all due to its dual nature, but I guess that can be proven by anyone who knows the difference between od and ob (two different aspects of the astral light).

October 10, 2015, 03:02:45 PM
Reply #53

Peoples Champion

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Well, when we have moved to a little bit more serious note, I might have also mentioned this (it's going to be in the article anyway). This is from the personal communication with one of the TDS members.

Quote from: IIHBuddy89
Also the olimpus meditations are perfectly safe since we are working with the 'astral light'  and it has a very nice balancing and purifying effect so how this can be addictive (are you think it's addictive because it works? that's pretty stupid)

I would like to mention that Astral light isn't balancing at all due to its dual nature, but I guess that can be proven by anyone who knows the difference between od and ob (two different aspects of the astral light).

Forgive me for not elaborating further for those who do not know the terminology but you are correct. Yang Qi is heavenly Qi, or as the west would know it as Astral light. So yes you more or less stated it correctly.

October 11, 2015, 09:25:40 AM
Reply #54

darkstorm1

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I'm about to post a message from one of the former students I mentioned who have left. His name is Beka . . . Here is his post:
----------------------------------------------

I was a part of the school for four years. Some nasty four years in my opinion. I will keep it short and to the point. There are a lot of things about TDS that are questionable. I've visited their location in Florida twice.

The teachers offered me remedies. One in the form of astrological remedy, which I had to do daily. This had no effect on my life whatsoever. The other was herbal remedies. As I did my practices with the utmost of effort and discipline, my health started to decline. One of the teachers perscribed me herbs, which I took for over a year. After about 6 months I told them that it probably had a negative effect on me, because my health kept declining and I was getting more and more exhausted . . .


I've been trying to stay out of all of this, but after reading Beka's post I think it's time I offer my perspective.

I joined the school around the same time that Beka did, after having been a student of various forms of Western occultism pretty much since I was 12 or 13. Although I read about a lot of cool people and even got to meet a few of them, I never, in all of that time, met anyone as knowledgeable as Ramose (Prophecy) or Veos about spirituality, or who could so easily perform energetic demonstrations (i.e. "Magic"). I've since met people who have known them since they were children and they're always saying, "Yeah, those two are special."

It's easy to see how a "cult of personality" can form around such people, but it's no different in my opinion than if you were to, say, take an acting workshop with a prominent actor. Of course you're going to have a sense of "wonder" around the acting teacher, but that doesn't mean that the teacher is forming a cult around themselves. He's just an acting teacher.
I haven't personally witnessed Ramose or Veos manipulating people for their own self-aggrandizement.  If that were the case then I can honestly say that I wouldn't stay.

I was visiting the teachers several times a week when Beka first visited the school and spent a lot of time around Beka during his first visit to meet the teachers. Since first meeting him I have enjoyed spending time with him in person and talking online, and I generally thought he was a friendly person, but it also must be said that he came to the school with acute, debilitating psychological problems, erratic mood swings and the like, which have colored his experience within The Divine Science from day one. Not every spiritual teacher would except students in such a troublesome and unfortunate mental state, but Ramose and Veos, from what I can tell, did everything they could to help him.
For the vast majority of students the school has been an effective path for spiritual/psychological growth and empowerment.

Now, does that mean that the head teachers are all rose petals and fluffy bunnies? No. They can be a little tough at times. But in my experience, even the things that could be seen as manipulative are often just maxims that are common knowledge in spiritual systems throughout the East, from which, I believe, they draw much of their inspiration. In my opinion, however, they have not manipulated people into staying. I believe that is a very cynical take on their natural impulse to help people improve their lives.
This is a school, and while they hope that, once you have gone through the probationer and aspirant classes, that you will stay with them so that they can facilitate your spiritual/magical development, people are of course free to come and go as they please.


Regarding the rumors about past incarnations of the head teachers and the like:
I have to say that much of that is simply rumor. While TDS does hold to the doctrine of reincarnation, much of the talk about specific past lives is just speculation based on people's dream experiences or resemblances to certain pictures and the like -- things that can't be verified. There is a bit of a cult of personality around the teachers, as I said before, and I've heard people say "I think Ramose was this person" or "I've heard Veos was that person" but I've never heard them make any official pronouncements about such things, or read anything where they said they were this person or that person.


Regarding the "spiritual lion" point:
Just last week Ramose was talking about how many of our social systems encourage dependence but through Theurgy we hope to become independent.

A few students may not have gotten every technique or magical ritual or whatnot that they wanted from the teachers exactly when they wanted it, or they didn't get healed exactly in the way they expected (Ramose and Veos clearly state that they are not healers, btw, and the school is clearly about spiritual evolution through magic and not about healing every malady you ever developed or caused for yourself, even though they do offer practices that have demonstrated healing benefits to myself and everyone else I know who has practiced them), so now, it seems like some of these disgruntled students who have left the school are saying that the teachers are making them "dependent," because they won't give them what they want exactly when they want it, but I haven't personally noticed this.

These people have each been initiated into techniques that cause marked changes in an individual and could, based on what we've been told, in and of themselves bring about much sought after states of consciousness. I've personally found even the beginning techniques to be very powerful and to grow in power over time. Many students develop a degree of etheric vision, for example, just from practicing some of the beginning practices (and that's just a byproduct of the practice -- not the main goal).
So the teachers aren't fostering dependence just because a few people didn't get everything they wanted exactly when they wanted it.


Regarding ancient sages in the lineage:
Anyone can read about how this school is in the "line" of ancient sages by reading the "History of Our Tradition" lecture, which is available to the public: http://thedivinescience.com/history-of-our-tradition


Regarding Herbalism:
I've taken Ramose's herbs and I have to say that they do exactly what is intended. Anecdotally, I know of a student Ramose worked with who has Type 1 diabetes who saw significant improvement in his blood work just by taking a herbal regimen Ramose recommended to him. He admitted that he hadn't really changed his diet yet the doctor was shocked at the improvement. I've taken his Essence Tonic and his Blood Cleanse and have definitely noticed more health improvements than I have on any other herbal regimen I've ever been on.
Regardless of path, I think they're great. (Here is the site if any of you want to check it out: http://www.herbal-elements.com/shop)

***

I've always liked hanging out with Danny and the Rodriguez brothers, and I hope they find what they are looking for. Likewise, I for one support their desire to express their opinion, but reading through the thread it seemed that so much negativity and even misinformation was being spread that it was necessary to share my perspective as someone who has spent a significant amount of time around both the three of them and the other teachers in the school.

Of course, no school is perfect, and it is relatively new so I'd be lying if I said there weren't a few growing pains, but honestly, the information given and the practices themselves have been extraordinary from day one. And as you get better, they get better. The teaching system and the information itself has only become more unprecedented with time. If you're looking to learn about how to use magic as a system of spiritual evolution, then this is a great system -- the best that I have personally ever come across.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 08:35:01 PM by darkstorm1 »

October 11, 2015, 10:04:42 AM
Reply #55

Peoples Champion

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Beka wanted to state this.


"I've read your comment. Your presupposition about me and my health is flawed. You all make judgments on what you think other people's problems are. You have no idea what I have or don't have, and you have no idea what I've done. It was actually a mixture of many different things, the most important one being the lifestyle and meditations of TDS were damaging me. And it wasn't that my health colored my experience in TDS from day one, but TDS colored my health from day one.  Yes, I think you could say they sincerely tried to help me, but in the process they made my health even worse. Your words imply that you see them as experts, but they are not. Look at my example or the others. It's as if you're going to a doctor, only to find out later he has made your health worse and he has no actual credentials.
But through my suffering there, I have come to certain important realizations, things that they never could've told me, and you will most likely not learn. Although for your sake I hope you do, because the longer you are with the school, the more attached you get, and the more difficult it will be to leave. Thus in the end, you could find yourself overcommitted to a goal that is nonsensical. I wish you all the best."




The conversation about past incarnations actually did happen in front of me. A student asked the question about Crowley, Veos begin to talk in the first person and then said “oh shi*” and then said that yeah he was Crowley and if I remember correctly he also said he had the astral body of Cogliostro as well so it wasn’t “all of him.”  Other locals can confirm this, unless I start seeing them lie through their teeth about it, but this did happen in front of me and in front of other locals.


May I also  add I was very psychologically sound. Or do I need to go further and post that too? My medical records proving that? This again is getting old.


The fact the personal attacks are always done when they are backed into a corner, should be very indicative of how the school is.

This is getting really tiring as that happened in the last thread, personal attacks.


From what I understand of Beka, this didn’t “color” his perceptions. Once again, the warping reality phenomena as I like to call it. I cannot imagine the world made of chocolate, and suddenly it becomes chocolate.


Once again, my post is being completely ignored. I stated that he told me to do standing postures on a damaged foot which won’t heal it actually made it worse! How many times I have do I have to state this?

He claimed it healed some guy Kahn and all he did was a standing posture, and that was it. Well guess what happened when I did it when the injury was manifesting? It made it a LOT worse and I was pushing through the pain over and over again and it did nothing but made it worse.

So darkstorm, are you saying he is just completely exempted from this? Because that is how you are making it sound. If you do not know how the hell to heal someone, you simply admit to it and go about your life, you do not claim to say you can heal it and give something and if it doesn’t work you blame the person, or will this also be denied?


The ability for students to ignore facts is simply astonishing to me. I have tried (for quite a while may I add, to avoid more victim blaming that I didn't simply give it enough time) a bunch of herbs, Gotu Kola, Ho shou wu, goji berries, another thing I tried was a salve he made, which also did not work. I also did try sesame seed oil, which again, did not work, all recommended to me by Ramose and Veos, the salve actually made by Ramose.

I’ve clearly told you the herbalism isn’t working, once again, ignoring it. Herbs alone would not be the panacea to everything as I have posted in the above.

So as I am seeing again, all the students can resort to is blaming the person. I have seen that over and over again and it amazes me.

Yeah they said the techniques can heal and yet we state otherwise and have actually proven otherwise. I wonder would you have resorted to a personal attack on me if I had not posted my MRI scans? I have also shown why the techniques actually hurt you, but this seems to be ignored really hard. Going about the idea that you do the techniques you do at “your own risk” and that “it can work, it might not work” does not sound scientific at all, once again using faith.

Also you are stating that I left because I wasn't being healed? I left because the practices are actually harmful, the constant lying, the fraud, and the terrible culture within the school.

Also you have no idea about Beka’s health issues. This heartless attitude is what I am talking about and always comes from someone who has never suffered a health issue in their life minus some minor sicknesses. This is the attitude I talked about that is honestly sickening.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:25:45 AM by Peoples Champion »

October 11, 2015, 10:15:03 AM
Reply #56

Akenu

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In my country we have a saying: "A path of suffering is tiled with good deeds". You can have the most noble will in your head, but no matter how hardly you want to help, it doesn't work without the needed knowledge and experience. This is also why only people who studied medicine (or psychology, psychiatry, etc) are meant to cure people. Yes, it is a bit different in the occult circles, but even the best alchemist shouldn't tell his client to throw away meds prescribed by an actual doctor (which, I believe, was the story about, as well).

October 11, 2015, 05:51:56 PM
Reply #57

Shankara

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he came to the school with acute, debilitating psychological problems, erratic mood swings and the like, which have colored his experience within The Divine Science from day one.

You state these things as if they are verified facts, but unless you're a psychologist who has evaluated him, you don't actually know any of this.  You do seem quite convinced, and I think it's because Ramose and Veos told you all these things.  Because you believe in them so strongly, you accept what they say as fact.  I've heard outright lies said about all the locals who have left, and those lies came from the Hierophants. Most of the current students believe these things without question, and then state them as fact, without even realizing they are spreading falsehoods.  I still talk to a lot of the students, and I've heard some pretty crazy things that have been said about me.

Regarding the rumors about past incarnations of the head teachers and the like:

I have to say that much of that is simply rumor. While TDS does hold to the doctrine of reincarnation, much of the talk about specific past lives is just speculation based on people's dream experiences or resemblances to certain pictures and the like -- things that can't be verified. There is a bit of a cult of personality around the teachers, as I said before, and I've heard people say "I think Ramose was this person" or "I've heard Veos was that person" but I've never heard them make any official pronouncements about such things, or read anything where they said they were this person or that person.

Oh, come on now.  If you're a local and were there when they used to have locals-only retreats (and if you are who I think you are then you were), you know they talked openly about their past incarnations as Crowley and Mathers. I believe them because I started having dreams about Crowley when I got accepted into the school, which was confusing because I had no idea of the connection at the time and was not interested in Thelema.

You also know that many of the closer students were also supposedly part of the early Golden Dawn and AA. This was all very exciting, and made us feel like we were part of an elite group of high souls on a multi-lifetime mission. But this knowledge was sometimes used against the students; according to TDS many students "betrayed" them by rebelling in the Golden Dawn or breaking magical oaths. This idea was used to make the students feel more obliged to the teachers, as if they had a debt to pay.  Even the student who was supposedly Paul Foster Case was made to feel guilty for 'rebelling' against Moina (who is also supposed to be in the school).  I remember during one gathering when I first started visiting, Veos told some of us that PF Case was student in the school, and that during that lifetime he rebelled against his teacher and went insane.  I don't agree with that perspective; I think Veos just had a personal issue with that student, probably because of lifetimes of conflict between them. 

That also sheds new light on Prophecy making disparaging remarks about Case in the old thread "Going to join the AMORC." He thought that Case being disloyal to Moina, and that he basically stole all of his teachings from MacGregor Mathers. That is certainly a matter for debate, but Prophecy is biased on this topic because he claims he IS Mathers, and he's also extremely close to the supposed current incarnation of Moina (admittedly I'm also biased because I'm extremely close to the supposed current incarnation of PF Case). He also seemed to disbelieve that Case met St. Germain, but I was there when Ramose told us that he himself had met St. Germain at the local shopping mall! He said he didn't speak to him, but he did see him and somehow knew it was him. They stared at each other; he had a long coat and tan skin, and I think he mentioned a ring too. So apparently the idea of meeting St. Germain isn't so far-fetched after all. I think it's obvious in the post how negatively he felt about Paul Foster Case and how much he looked down on him, to the point that another poster had to step in and point out his errors. Now this was written at a time when the current incarnation of Case was one of Ramose's closest students. His perspective on the past definitely colored his view of the student in the present (IMO). The student was absolutely made to feel bad for it.

One of my friends had a memory of being Florence Farr and she felt so guilty about it.  I think it definitely made her feel worse about herself, mainly because they made it seem like anyone who turned against Mathers in the Golden Dawn had done a horrible thing (even though Crowley and Mathers fought against each other too). She told me she would never want to 'betray' her teacher again, which of course has made her feel very reluctant to leave or even question them, even though she has had issues with the school from time to time. 
   
The fact that Mathers and Crowley did treat their students, friends, and lovers badly (at least some of the time) wasn't acknowledged; it was all the fault of the students for rebelling. For three students I know of, their problems in this life were blamed on them breaking oaths or rebelling in the past. The closest Ramose and Veos came to explaining their actions was to say that there had to be conflict during that life because all the negative karma would ensure we were brought back during this lifetime, the jewel incarnation (and yes, I've heard them say if you leave them in the jewel incarnation you'll be cursed with many lifetimes of no teacher). Another explanation I heard once was when Veos blamed Crowley's misdeeds on him having Cagliostro's astral body, which ruled his emotions.  He said Cagliostro now had the Crowley's negative karma, not him.  I disagree, however, because so many important people in Crowley's life are now with Veos, not Cagliostro, showing that he is responsible for that karma. 

I don't think Mathers or Crowley were evil or anything, but I don't think they were perfect masters either.  I think they often hurt people and were prone to lying and exaggerating for self-promotion, even if they also displayed legitimate powers and achieved some high states.  I think there are teachers out there with fewer red flags, especially if you want purely spiritual evolution.  I do understand that if you are interested in magic, the idea of learning from them is alluring.  However, in the 3.5 years I was in the school, I didn't learn any rituals; it was mostly mysticism and theory.  Those who'd been in the school for 5-6 years (Flow A) didn't learn any ritual either.  I've heard they are implementing a new system where there will be more focus on magic, so maybe that will be a better fit for what many students are looking for.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 03:00:56 AM by Shankara »

October 11, 2015, 06:55:30 PM
Reply #58

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To me the reincarnation drama is simultaneously the saddest and most amusing part of this entire thing. One of the aims of mysticism, which is meant to be one of the components of theurgy, is to overcome the karmic drama and own up to all that crap. Is there a "karmic" price to pay for breaking oaths and betraying and doing similar stuff? Sure, especially magically binding oaths and relationships. However, any decent magician can neutralize that kind of juju without breaking a sweat, most especially when the same people are working together again. It's a great Mystery called forgiveness, and it shouldn't be that big a deal for a simple Initiate, let alone an Adept.

And yet we deal with lifetimes and centuries of friendships and rivalries, like some sophomoric magical fraternity. And yes, the same drama happens in most conventional Orders, which isn't really a good thing. That's like saying there's lots of rape, so its fine if you do it too. It's illogical and foolish in the worst of ways. And frankly, this is one of (the many) reasons I left not only TDS, but the entire "Western" Mystery Tradition as most of you know it. When you get out of all the drama in the posh frat house, you can find out how pleasant the real world actually is.



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"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

October 12, 2015, 07:13:41 AM
Reply #59

Trillis

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A Daskalos is one of the nine students directly under Ramose and Veos. Most of them were/are teachers of the TDS classes.

I should have been more clear; all the students (including the Daskaloi) I mentioned who left did so because of problems they encountered in the school, meaning the abuses perpetrated by the Hierophants (some also left because of physical and mental/spiritual problems caused by the practices or remedies given). Now I readily admit that many students are fine with their behaviors, don't consider them to be abusive or immoral, and excuse (IMO) very questionable behaviors away as them doing what they have to do to complete their divine mission to save Western Spirituality (in addition to other reasons/excuses). But others aren't OK with how they treat their students and I wanted to make it known that those (former) students exist too.

I found TDS on this site several years ago, and then, like now, there were no reports of anyone close to the school or the Hierophants having any bad experiences with them. So I was not as aware as I should have been.  Perhaps I would've still joined the school had I known, but I would've had my eyes open a little wider going in. Instead I thought they were divine masters, because that's what they claim to be once you're around them enough. They come here and claim they want you to question them and their students say that they're not masters or gurus, but once you visit enough and especially if you're a local student, they do claim to be masters in Henosis (beyond Gnosis/Enlightenment). They claim a lot of things about themselves. Because of these claims many questionable behaviors are justified or simply ignored.  These behaviors unfortunately do trickle down to the rest of the school; many of these behaviors are seen in the closer students, and in the school culture as a whole. For instance, there is a lot of gossip and infighting amongst the closer students, and this isn't just political drama that would be exist in any organization; it's often begun by the Hierophants themselves.

I'm sure you'll get the other side of this story from some passionate TDS students (or Hierophants) soon enough.  :biggrin:

As a "Daskalos" who left.  This is precisely why I left.