Poll

Do you approve of this alternate proposed rule change?

I approve
15 (68.2%)
I do not approve
7 (31.8%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: July 22, 2013, 08:20:30 PM

Author Topic: Vote: ALTERNATE Rule change to handle disruption  (Read 9457 times)

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July 17, 2013, 09:06:49 PM
Reply #15

kobok

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Would there be a component where the intention of the behaviour would be to disrupt the open exchange of ideas in a  malicious manner

Specifically no, which from my perspective is part of the reason for this rule.  While SOME people exhibiting these sorts of extreme behaviors exhibit malice and have intention to disrupt, many others are benevolent in intent, but so disordered that they are just incapable of even realizing what they are doing.  (I know this sounds extreme, but if for some reason you haven't seen it here before a mod has taken care of it, I assure you it happens.)

It would be hard to draw a solid line where the means of the disruptive behaviour could be so varied it would need to be handled on a case by case basis, and the potential for 'mod abuse' would be there.

There is a great deal of potential for mod abuse under just about any rule that can lead to bans, and I don't think this one has any more such potential than others.  There are only a few things that really protect from mod abuse, and those include systematically choosing good mods, keeping in place checks and balances from other staff members, and review of moderator decisions.  I think we have been doing all of those things pretty well for a while, which is why there has been a pretty broad consensus of mods not being abusive here.  And we will attempt to continue those in the same manner.


I think what some of the non-staff considering this vote don't realize is how a rule like this helps the staff to NOT abuse their power.  For example, a person comes along and makes a post that seems pretty blatantly delusional to everyone reading it.  Now when this sort of thing happens, there is often a call for someone to ban the person.  Many times a member shouts to some mods that the person should be banned.  People will say things like, "It's the same as trolling!"  BUT, if this rule passes, now we have a guideline for this situation.  Under the rule, that post wouldn't qualify, because the single post, even if it seems crazy to everyone reading it, isn't "persistently disruptive".  So now the mods have a guideline telling them not to act on that post, and the mods have a guideline to use in reviewing each other's bans.
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July 17, 2013, 09:58:07 PM
Reply #16

RanmaBushiko

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Maybe it would be fair if it was decided for how much counts as repeatedly disruptive, then.  No offense, but how often should it be before someone is shown to be "persistently disruptive"?  10?  20?  49, as the bible says for you to forgive others?
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July 17, 2013, 11:57:37 PM
Reply #17

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No. I have been seeing this word 'delusion' thrown around this forum by a few of the the teachers and seem to be respected members (Karma) to ideas they think are delusional (of which I am guilty here and there, I am sure), such as psychich vampirism, communion with the one, apotheosis, etc. If a poster writes a sentence such as, "I invoked Scahoodle the Dead Tree Accumulator and my annual income doubled" might sound a little off, but any of us into chaos magic knows this is a possibility, or if they commune with angels, have yearly flights to a distant galaxy- it might sound a little ookey, but for them it is quite real- not delusional, just a subjective reasoning that others condemn them for (or it is quite real and we just haven' t experienced it).

Ban for disruption, blatant arguing, off topic posting (I would say 5-10 blatently offensive, non-sensical or off topic replies/posts). Being banned from a metaphysical forum because some screen name and avatar thinks they are delusional is not only offensive, arrogant, judgemental and ignorant, but can be a major blow to a human beings self-esteem and spiritual practice. Maybe change the word 'delusional' to 'incomprehensible'.

To conclude, some people are just rude, stupid and immature so they post randomness and nonsense because they are bored or story tellers trying to get a perspective, but there is no way one can judge delusion over the internet, as I doubt anyone on this forum is actually that psychically sensitive or cares enoguh to actually metaphysically check if the person is mentally ill- and this would be pretty delusional in and of itself to most people and even psychics.

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July 18, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
Reply #18

kobok

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Maybe it would be fair if it was decided for how much counts as repeatedly disruptive, then.  No offense, but how often should it be before someone is shown to be "persistently disruptive"?  10?  20?  49, as the bible says for you to forgive others?

That would be a matter of moderator discretion and judgment, as with most rules.  How many lines on the IRC must be pasted before something counts as flooding under the flooding rule?  Context and many other things are taken into account.  You don't want a blanket rule of hard thresholds, because exact counts aren't what ultimately matter to ANY of us.  It's better if the detailed implementation of all the rules is goal-oriented toward having a good community with solid discussion, and counts are adjusted as necessary in each case to achieve that goal within the spirit of the rules.
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July 19, 2013, 04:43:34 AM
Reply #19

Akenu

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Maybe it would be fair if it was decided for how much counts as repeatedly disruptive, then.  No offense, but how often should it be before someone is shown to be "persistently disruptive"?  10?  20?  49, as the bible says for you to forgive others?

That would be a matter of moderator discretion and judgment, as with most rules.  How many lines on the IRC must be pasted before something counts as flooding under the flooding rule?  Context and many other things are taken into account.  You don't want a blanket rule of hard thresholds, because exact counts aren't what ultimately matter to ANY of us.  It's better if the detailed implementation of all the rules is goal-oriented toward having a good community with solid discussion, and counts are adjusted as necessary in each case to achieve that goal within the spirit of the rules.


Moderators are still people, with all the advantages and disadvantages. How about to modify the rule so there will be some kind of a public referendum where all members can choose what to do with the case?

July 19, 2013, 06:45:27 AM
Reply #20

Theopholis

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The moderaters have been voted in by the community. If anyone felt they were unsuited to make such decisions, they have had a chance to make that known. I realize that those of us (myself) who got here later have had less of a say in the matter, and that's simply part of joining an existing community.

Personally I feel like it's important that we trust the mods with the power given to them. Any one who betrays this trust can (will, I'm sure) be removed from their position. If there are moderators your currently do not trust, you should bring that up with the staff.

If you do not empower your leaders to do their jobs well, then they are bound to do poorly.
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July 19, 2013, 06:57:04 AM
Reply #21

Akenu

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Theopholis: Not trusting someone or believing that he still is a human person are two very different things. Or do you disagree with referendum, the most democratic technique?

July 19, 2013, 07:25:39 AM
Reply #22

Theopholis

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Oh, I don't like or agree with democracy much at all. But that's not really relevant, the forums run on it, and I am able to use and respect the system regardless of what I think of it.

In democratic countries, do you vote on each decision the government makes, or do you vote to choose leaders who are capable of making those decisions on behalf of their country?

In the case of someone who is merely disruptive, but not at all delusional, or delusional but not at all disruptive, or many other cases, a referendum may well lead to a ban that ignores the rules based on the feelings of the members who happen to be actively posting at the time, members who may have a strong bias against a person simply because their beliefs clash in some way. It is better, because of this, to appoint calm, and objective persons who are capable of withholding personal bias and feelings to make such decisions, and to provide them with a clear set of rules to abide by. If both the rules and the moderaters are chosen by the community then the community has quite directly, and democratically, already made their decision, and the moderater simply ensures that the rules are objectively carried out.

Yes, the moderaters are just people, and they make mistakes just like everybody else. It is not whether they are perfect, but whether we trust them to make good decisions, and to admit and correct their mistakes, that is important.
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July 19, 2013, 07:56:56 AM
Reply #23

Akenu

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We choose leaders that do decisions "within" our countries, but anything important "external", starting with joining unions and ending with signing contracts with other countries is usually based on referendum.

July 19, 2013, 08:02:12 AM
Reply #24

Theopholis

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Well, these are decisions within the Veritas Society ;)
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July 19, 2013, 11:08:02 AM
Reply #25

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And how would we get on with regards to biblical issues?

You and I kobok are polar opposites in many things. One such area is Christianity; in the UK gay marriage is high on the agenda as it as just been made legal and we are hearing a lot of moaning and positioning from so called Christians (you know my background) who call it immoral because it say so in the bible (so they have been told). Could the rule be used because this topic is against collective mod thinking?

I have tried to take this rule to one of many possible outcomes and you and the other mods may see this example as never happening and you standing by open morals but what are you leaving the next set of mods will they be as understand and use the rule to meet their stance?

In other words you are not just making this rule for now!

And like other times will the mods stand up and say that they have banned people and for why?

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July 19, 2013, 11:18:51 AM
Reply #26

Theopholis

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I have tried to take this rule to one of many possible outcomes and you and the other mods may see this example as never happening and you standing by open morals but what are you leaving the next set of mods will they be as understand and use the rule to meet their stance?

In other words you are not just making this rule for now!

And like other times will the mods stand up and say that they have banned people and for why?

I don't really understand the first half of your post Seacher, but in response to the other half:
The community votes on it's mods. You, and the rest of the community are, and forever will be, responsible for picking mods that you feel can uphold the rules to an acceptable standard.

I don't think the current mods see this as "never happening"; if they did they wouldn't bother to propose the rule.
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July 19, 2013, 12:29:49 PM
Reply #27

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Ok Theo

Me and kobok argue and we both try to score points off the other while putting the other down. I was bought up a fundamental protestant but rejected it for what I see as a more plausible explanation while kobok is still within that fundamental Christian society and lets be fair his choice but I will not accept majical ideals as Christian based to influence others.

So Gay partnerships/marriage to Christians fundamentalists is a no go area, Personally I could not give a dam either way but I respect the right of the individual to be able to do and have the same rights as others regardless of gender, culture or creed. This rule therefore goes against my philosophy that everyone as the same rights and that we must stand up when this is effected.

Now do you understand the first part

Under this rule me posting this can be deemed as meeting the rules criteria

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July 19, 2013, 12:49:46 PM
Reply #28

Impervious

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Ok Theo

Me and kobok argue and we both try to score points off the other while putting the other down. I was bought up a fundamental protestant but rejected it for what I see as a more plausible explanation while kobok is still within that fundamental Christian society and lets be fair his choice but I will not accept majical ideals as Christian based to influence others.

So Gay partnerships/marriage to Christians fundamentalists is a no go area, Personally I could not give a dam either way but I respect the right of the individual to be able to do and have the same rights as others regardless of gender, culture or creed. This rule therefore goes against my philosophy that everyone as the same rights and that we must stand up when this is effected.

Now do you understand the first part

Under this rule me posting this can be deemed as meeting the rules criteria

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No; seriously, what are you talking about? This post probably would meet the "rules criteria," because what you are saying is not relevant, and doesn't seem to make much sense. The way you put words together no sense make.

Also, kobok is one of the most liberal Christians I have ever met. If you are trying to say he opposes gay marriage, I am almost 100% sure he's all for equal marriage laws. (Even if he wasn't, what would that have to do with these forum rules? Hint: We aren't banning people on the basis of their sexuality; we'd be banning people based on their posr content. This is a reasonable thing to do on an online forum.)

Please try to make more sense, or at least make somewhat relevant points.
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July 19, 2013, 12:58:33 PM
Reply #29

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Here is a bigger hint:

It is called bias!

Here's what wiki says about it:

Bias is an inclination of temperaments or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives in reference to objects, people, or groups. Anything biased generally is one-sided and therefore lacks a neutral point of view. Bias can come in many forms and is often considered to be synonymous with prejudice or bigotry.

And you still cannot see why the rule is wrong?

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