Poll

Do you approve of the proposed rule change?

I approve
9 (45%)
I do not approve
11 (55%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 22, 2013, 01:50:38 PM

Author Topic: Vote: Rule change to handle disruption  (Read 4664 times)

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July 17, 2013, 04:10:07 PM
Reply #15

Steve

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Okay, so not having seen the problems first hand in the chat room, I would still like to suggest that any rule focuses more on disruption than on delusion, as relevant.

If no conversation is taking place except for one person ranting to themselves and the wind, going from one thought to a wildly different one, without interrupting anyone then I think most of us would agree that it's probably not a big deal.

However, if any number of people are having a discussion, especially one on topic to these forums, and someone else jumps in with completely nonsensical or random statements that not only do nothing to add to the discussion, but even distract people away from the main discussion, then certainly I think the disruption should or could be properly handled with a warning then a kick then a ban, skipping any steps as necessary, as normal. Regardless of whether the person is diagnosed with a mental illness/incapacity or not.

Sometimes people, like myself, are just in a random mood, and if I, without any sort of delusional thinking or diagnosis, start disrupting an otherwise good conversation by throwing in random statements (or bash quotes ;)) then I should be warned and then silenced so as to not disturb the conversation.

I'm all for adding a rule against "disrupting a good conversation with utter nonsense". It's just the word delusion that I am wary of, as conversations can be derailed by non-delusions as well. In my opinion, I think that one word needlessly narrows the rule too much in one specific direction.

~Steve
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 04:21:39 PM by Steve »
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July 17, 2013, 11:12:44 PM
Reply #16

Mind_Bender

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No. You can't judge delusion by words written. It's like judging someones intellect by their fashion sense- you can be the smartest person in the state and still have tattooes of scribbles and dress like a Hell's Angel. Months and years of psychological and nutritous counseling and personal attention need to be considered before we can assume someone is delusional. Banning somone for redundandant off post annoyance, on the the other hand, more power to you.

Plus, this is a website dedicated to the discussion and practice of spiritual and energetic technologies, fraught with arguments and simple word games with almost 20,000 members all, or most, of us with pseudonymns and personalized sigils, favorite anime characters and a host of other avatars- we are nothing more, oldschool staff to new member, than kids, dweebs, freaks, devil worshippers and people with too much time on our hands to people in the outside world.

Even the ancient and modern masters of science and metaphysics say there is a fine line between a mystic and a schizoid.
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July 18, 2013, 12:39:25 AM
Reply #17

Impervious

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Saying "Nobody can tell who is delusional online" is missing the point entirely, in my opinion. Quite frankly, we don't care how delusional or disruptive you are or are not in your day-to-day life; we care how delusional or disruptive you come across as on THIS forum. Whether someone seems to be delusional and disruptive (this phrase hereby condensed to just "delusional", for brevity) because of some sort of mental illness, because of drug use, because of "one bad day", or because they just feel like acting that way is completely irrelevant. With that previous sentence in mind, we aren't trying to attack people with delusional disorders, we are trying to limit the number of persistently delusional people on our forums, -whatever their reasons for being delusional may be- for sake of making conversing as easy as possible.

In case the above isn't clear enough: The goal of this rule is to eliminate a certain kind of behavior; the goal is not to discriminate against a certain type of mentally ill people. In this sense, this rule is no different from any of the other rules we have.

Whether or not we can accurately determine that someone suffers from persistent delusional disorders in real life can be debated. However, we can certainly determine whether or not someone's forum behavior falls into these criteria with essentially perfect accuracy, as long as the rules are clear enough to those enforcing them. If you cannot recognize delusional thinking by reading what a delusional person types, then you simply aren't trying hard enough. I agree that forum posts aren't necessarily an accurate gauge of the way people are in their real lives, but that isn't what we care about here. :P

All of that being said, I am abstaining from these votes until the wording is more concrete. I trust the staff to only ban people in the correct circumstances, but I don't feel comfortable approving a rule that most of the members (those who have voiced their opinions so far, at least) think means something different from its stated goal. Everyone should be able to perfectly understand the rules, so that everyone can make sure they aren't breaking them. I am likely to approve a future vote, should the point of the rule be even further clarified.
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July 18, 2013, 05:48:24 PM
Reply #18

kobok

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You can't judge delusion by words written

Honestly, yes you very much can.  Anyone who has moderated here for at least a few years should be able to spot delusional behavior from quite some distance a way.  Not only are there readily available sets of diagnostic criteria for identifying psychosis based on written words, but we've seen so much of it that it has become very easy to spot, especially in the obvious/blatant cases.  Such problems have very little to do with what someone is talking about (so there are no concerns about magical beliefs being misinterpreted), and a whole lot more to do with how they are speaking and interacting with everyone.

And as Rhetorices said, it's the behavior here that matters, because it's the behavior here that affects this community.  So it is perfectly legitimate to look at the behavior here to see if they are causing a persistent disruption from blatantly delusional behavior.
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July 19, 2013, 03:46:47 PM
Reply #19

Mind_Bender

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I already posted in another thread that further elaborates my opinion, so I will just say that I understand what you all are trying to do and that it is a benefit to this community, and I respect that, but delusion is a strong word. If they are not delusional in there day to day affairs, they are not delusional, but an annoyance.

Maybe there are ways to pinpoint delusional behavior from written work, but then again, some people that seem like loons online are actually very sane people, they just can't write to save their lives. I have seen posts with so many typos it gives me a headache and makes the poster sound mentally off, but they just don'tknow what words to use, how to spell or anything about grammar.

Plus, the moderators views and communities views (peoples personal perceptions in general) of what delusion is and how we can 'diagnose' it online are nothing but opinions. I have been called delusional a couple times on this (and other forums) and I know I am not, so how hpw can you honestly judge delusion? You cannot, you can only lend a educated guess.

This is longer than I thought, sorry.

Why are you so concerned with keeping the word delusion anyway? Are you delusional and projecting it? Have you been mistreated by  delusional?

I think a few of us here are just upset over the wording- find a word other than delusion or any other mental diagnostic word that gets the point across and I am sure this new rule will pass without such dissent.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

July 19, 2013, 08:37:42 PM
Reply #20

kobok

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I have been called delusional a couple times on this (and other forums) and I know I am not

Certainly.  I don't think you are either.

Myself, I have at some time over the years been called each of delusional, a troll, obscene, hateful, threatening, disrespectful, and so forth.  And I've been accused by SOMEONE of violating just about every rule we have.  But so what?  We're not trying to make rules that are implemented by fools with poor judgment.  If people are going to use poor judgment, then they could find an excuse to ban you under ANY set of rules.

We're just trying to find a set of guidelines that moderators we continually select for good judgment can use to keep the forum and chat discussions sane, amicable, and informative.
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July 19, 2013, 10:05:42 PM
Reply #21

Mind_Bender

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We're just trying to find a set of guidelines that moderators we continually select for good judgment can use to keep the forum and chat discussions sane, amicable, and informative.

I support that completely, and sorry if I have been coming off as distasteful toward you and coming off as a word nazi, I just think the wording could be better because delusion and nonsense come close, but you can't be diagnosed with nonsense.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

July 20, 2013, 09:00:31 PM
Reply #22

kobok

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I support that completely, and sorry if I have been coming off as distasteful toward you and coming off as a word nazi, I just think the wording could be better because delusion and nonsense come close, but you can't be diagnosed with nonsense.

I think it's a healthy discussion to have, and I take no offense at it.  And even if it comes to pass as worded in one of the proposals, I think the discussion has helped us form a better consensus on how it should be interpreted and implemented.
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July 22, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
Reply #23

kobok

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