Author Topic: Mystery schools  (Read 41901 times)

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June 21, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
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bismuth

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Hello Veritas,
I am new here and this is my first post, though I have been a reader of these forums for some time.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

I am wondering if someone here might know the status of several mystery schools, specifically:

- Aurum Solis
- Astrum Sophiae
- Servants of the Light

From what I understand there have been some transitions within these orders and I'm hoping to find out their current standing if possible before I venture onward.

I am also highly interested in The Divine Science.

Have any of you personal recent experiences with these orders and if you do would you mind sharing them?

Thank you all.
Be well.

June 21, 2013, 02:05:37 PM
Reply #1

trismegistos

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I do not know about the others, but I am a member of The Divine Science and I couldn't recommend it more highly.  In most orders, the Adepts are hidden, aka they likely don't even exist because many orders have just become fraternities (though a few sects of various Orders are still legitimate).  In The Divine Science, you are encouraged to visit and meet the Adepts of the school first hand, and evaluate for yourself their legitimacy.  You will not be disappointed, and will have no doubt of their Adepthood, you will go home feeling incredibly serene for days and weeks afterwards just from how evolutionary their very presence is, since they are emitting evolutionary energies the entire time you are there.  You will also receive teachings that can only be transmitted orally while visiting, and be given transmissions to speed your evolution months ahead of where it would be with just your own meditation, according to how open you are to the transmission.  You will experience some pretty crazy effects during these transmissions, some open up clairvoyance temporarily which is a really incredible thing to experience, to see the Scholarch's transform into their past incarnations before your vary eyes. Also people will be twitching and hopping around like fish out of water from the amount of energy being pumped through the nervous system, it is like when you are doing something like pranayama to purify the nadis, but times a hundred.

June 21, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
Reply #2

Koujiryuu

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Let's be honest with ourselves, here. I am a Probationer alumni there too.

There is a lot of positive concerning The Divine Science. However, there is also a lot of negative.

I'm not going to get into the positive or negative about their particular methodology but I do want to point a few things out.

However, I will say this:

Nobody is responsible for your own spiritual development but you. Don't trust anyone who says that they've figured it all out for you. Don't trust anyone who says they can give you an "energetic transmission" that will further you on your path without you having to do anything.

Lets keep in mind that Ramose is 25, to my knowledge. Veos is younger, I believe. All of the daskoloi are that age or younger. Do you really think they've figured this all out? How can one so young claim anything? Is there any resounding proof that the "hidden masters" they claimed to learn their tradition from really exist? There are some spurious links in the publicly available documents, but to my knowledge they have presented no proof from a living authority that their teachings are authentic.

They've only been teaching their current methods for about 4 years. Before that, it was Yoga. Before that it was Sikhism. Before that it was Hermetics. Before that it was Elemental magick. That is an overwhelming amount of different approaches in a short time. This exemplifies confusion.

When I was 17, in 2001, I was incarcerated and practicing Kundalini yoga and Qigong for 5 hours day. this is what Ramose was doing then.

This may be my own personal doubts about the school, but at least I'm honest and grounded. I don't believe everything they say and I don't think they are masters of anything or Enlightened. They know I think this way. They are people, imperfect people who piss and shit just like you and I. They may have some level of spiritual teaching and they are taking steps to teach this to others. This is good. However, you have to really ask yourself, with some of the lectures on their site and the condescending and elitist attitude of some of it... and the fact that they present themselves as something greater by wearing robes and calling themselves weird names... what is the real purpose behind all of it? Is it really necessary to put on a masquerade and have many cult-like ideas and a culture of worshiping people on a pedestal to teach spirituality? They are putting themselves in this position on purpose.

Let us also keep in mind, some of the forum rules and attitudes towards other methods of spirituality shown on the site:

Quote
5. Do not direct students to other teachers. This includes posting videos of other instructors, gurus, hierophants, orders, authors, etc. Discussion outside the forum is fine, but within the forum we can not appear to support other institutions, for the sake of our students and in order to facilitate concentration on the teachings.

6. Avoid controversial topics. We are not here to discuss international politics, civil rights, political events, etc. These invariably lead to disharmony in the group, and disrupt the flow of the school. What may seem barbaric to one culture, may be a respected way of life to another. Focus on what unites us, instead of what creates division.

7. It is the sacred responsibility of every student to keep silently in his heart the special teachings which may have been received from the Hierophants or teachers, wherever those teachings go beyond the scope of the main curriculum of the school. It is permitted and encouraged to discuss teachings from the lectures and the public articles, and to consider and speculate concerning even greater things. But knowledge received orally from the teachers of the tradition should be kept personal and secret, since all students are not permitted to hear all things yet. The same discipline must be used to keep the teachings of our school secret from those not a part of it. The public articles are written for the purpose of public instruction.

Why so much secrecy? Why so much elitism (only certain people are eligible and selected for classes)? Why not promote learning spirituality from ALL Teachers and paths, including ones outside of the site, that are beneficial?

It is a classical sign of a destructive cult to enforce silence, forbid discussion of certain ideas, encourage worshiping the leaders in a cult of personality, and discourage members from reaching out and studying other systems of thought that might make them reflect on the nature of the cult, and eventually leave it.

Quote
You will experience some pretty crazy effects during these transmissions, some open up clairvoyance temporarily which is a really incredible thing to experience, to see the Scholarch's transform into their past incarnations before your vary eyes. Also people will be twitching and hopping around like fish out of water from the amount of energy being pumped through the nervous system, it is like when you are doing something like pranayama to purify the nadis, but times a hundred.

I'm sorry, but in the Probationer class I noticed none of this and I made no connections with anyone in the group I was in. How many of these experiences are people "faking it"? How many people "fake" writing in their journals on that site when they haven't done the practice? How many people outright lie and make things up, especially the Dream collective? I have talked to numerous people on TDS that have told me they are diagnosed schizophrenics. "Seeing the Scholarchs in their past incarnations" (I thought they were called Hierophants? They changed it again?)- is this really true or is it a hallucination of your mind, and hence a delusion? Buddhism says there are 65,000 forms of delusion that the mind can attach to. However, TDS's forums enforce a culture of belief using faith, with a serious lack of introspection and questioning the nature of the experiences. Everyone believes everything everyone else says oftentimes without question. This only produces delusion, and a culture of delusion.

OP, if I were you, I would take all of this with a grain of salt and be careful if you get involved with TDS. The practices are good and they work. They seem to seriously want to help people, and that's great. However, don't believe in the leaders as if they are infallible. Don't trust anyone who says they can do it all for you. Ultimately, that's a lie- you only progress because of your own work and effort.

"“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” -Buddha

(If quotes and messages like this were taught on TDS, I wonder how many people would have doubts about the practices and teachers, and gain self understanding because of it?)

Kouji
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 03:42:00 PM by Koujiryuu »
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Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

June 21, 2013, 03:51:06 PM
Reply #3

bismuth

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trismegistos, thank you for your explanation. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for.
I have read only good things about The Divine Science. The only downside is that, as far as I know, they don't have a lodge near my location which is something I was especially interested in.
I would like to be in the physical presence of similar beings as myself if possible.  
Everything else about them is intriguing my spirit. I have signed up to their list, and I will apply once applications are open again.

I have no previous experience with an Order, but I do have experience in matters concerning the spirit.
I'm not sure it is appropriate to say what I have experienced in this life in this post, but I am unbelievably grateful for what has been revealed to me over the past several years.
I will say that something higher has been guiding me around the world, to be in the presence of masters, and what I have received from them is true light. I am convinced they are angels.
These masters are not always accessible however and I must continue on. I will no doubt cross their paths again.  

With that said I would like to continue my spiritual unfoldment with a true Order such as The Divine Science.
I don't want to spread myself too thin, so I want to make sure I make the right decision and to stick with 1.

I look forward to further responses on this discussion.

Thank you all.
Be well.






June 21, 2013, 05:04:40 PM
Reply #4

bismuth

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Koujiryuu, thank you for your highly informative post.

I agree with everything you're saying regarding trust.
That is younger than I had expected the adepts of TDS to be, what's important is their level of spiritual advancement and from what I understand they have advanced quite far.
It's true that if they have studied all of those things in that amount of time that may be cutting it thin. At the same time, depending on their levels, it may have advanced them further quicker.
I am interested in seeing other responses about TDS in regards to their level of mastery and their connections with ancient lineages.

I have no problem learning from young adepts if what they claim is true. 

Another very important part of my decision is whether or not the Order is contacted or has true connections with ancient lineages.

There are reasons that certain things are kept secret, mainly because it could be highly dangerous in the wrong hands. Surely the adepts would be able to see the intent of those they choose to teach. Plus it keeps the energy more focused and less scattered which I believe is very important.

As far as energetic transmission, I have personally received energetic transmissions from very powerful, shall I say, keepers of the Earth - the angels that I referred to in my previous post. There is absolutely no mistaking their power or how these transmissions transformed my spirit. I have received these transmissions both in the physical and the astral. I can say with absolute confidence that I have never experienced anything more beautiful or powerful in my life thus far. You are correct in that you progress with your own work and effort, even these transmissions I received - had I not been working with them and capable of receiving their power, I would not have received the energy transmissions.

I really appreciate your perspective on this as it's far different than everything else I've read so far about TDS.
That is unfortunate that you felt no connection to the group. Were you physically with this group or was this an online group?
Diagnosed schizophrenics... I only hope they are careful and know what they are getting into by studying these things. That sounds highly dangerous to me.

Is TDS the first Order you have joined?

Thank you all.
Be well.


June 21, 2013, 10:37:36 PM
Reply #5

Meroe

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Hello Bismuth. I too was once in your shoes. doing as much research as possible, doing different practices from various cultures, reading many a book. I myself, like trismegistos, am a student of the divine science, after being taught by a few different well known lineages. Ill get to parts of that in a moment, but what i personally feel would be beneficial for your judgement is my perspective on what has been said by kourjiryuu, all in good spirit.

Quote
Nobody is responsible for your own spiritual development but you. Don't trust anyone who says that they've figured it all out for you. Don't trust anyone who says they can give you an "energetic transmission" that will further you on your path without you having to do anything.

the first part, is something i have known to be true & is expressly coincides with what is taught in the divine science, (TDS). development is wholly ones personal responsibility. I personally am a very practical kind of person. if something doesnt work, then i discard it. However I am always willing to experiment and learn from different sources, see what fits and what doesnt. I believe that if one has not personally received an energetic transmission then of course its easy to be skeptical of such things. which by the way, is practiced in practically all lineages, especially some one the ones that hand down ancient teachings on things such as kundalini yoga & chi gong, which koujiryuu says he practices. how do i know this? before joining TDS, I was a student of a master of Longmen Pai, aka the Dragon Gate Sect. transmissions are given in initiation ceremonies and other times at the the discretion of teachers and masters merely to help one along their path. this is a universal esoteric concept, done by the chinese, indian, jewish, african, european mystery schools.

Quote
This may be my own personal doubts about the school, but at least I'm honest and grounded. I don't believe everything they say and I don't think they are masters of anything or Enlightened. They know I think this way. They are people, imperfect people who piss and shit just like you and I. They may have some level of spiritual teaching and they are taking steps to teach this to others. This is good. However, you have to really ask yourself, with some of the lectures on their site and the condescending and elitist attitude of some of it... and the fact that they present themselves as something greater by wearing robes and calling themselves weird names... what is the real purpose behind all of it? Is it really necessary to put on a masquerade and have many cult-like ideas and a culture of worshiping people on a pedestal to teach spirituality? They are putting themselves in this position on purpose.

They have never claimed to be masters, or enlightened. in all the teachings and posts i have read they left that up to the reader to decide, based on experiential knowledge of what theyre teaching. this is hardly a cult like way of presenting such things, I feel like its opposite to how you have portrayed the way they claimed to be. im interested in reading where they had an elitist attitude towards anything. what lectures? id like to read this for myself. the concept of wearing robes to signify the difference between the teacher, and the student, is culturally universal. my taoist master did it, just the same as all the lineages in china, the Indians do it, the Judaic practiticioners do it, so how is this relevant? they epouse a greek (neoplatonic) form of hermeticism, within a lineage. within lineages such as theirs, such things are always present. their title is Daskalodos, aka teacher of the way. hardly an ego booster in my opinion. the western mindset downplays & ridicules such things just as you have in your reply, but the truth is for most cultures this is very common, especially for spiritual orders, but such things are present in all forms of society. for example such as british judges/politicians wearing the george washington type whigs along with the rest of a normal judges dress.

explain in what way they promote worship of personality. All of the students i know, only are grateful due to the results, which at the end of the day, all that matters. So if a large amount of people experience spiritual awakenings, clairvoyance, & magical experiences as an exact result of purely their teachings, would it really be that odd for some of them to be a little bit more vocal about their appreciation for the teachers? such things exceedingly rare in our society, let alone within the short amount of time experienced compared to other western orders that i associate with. I think the wide diversity of people whom write their positive experiences should say something. but i respect your opinion.

Quote
Why so much secrecy? Why so much elitism (only certain people are eligible and selected for classes)? Why not promote learning spirituality from ALL Teachers and paths, including ones outside of the site, that are beneficial?

It is a classical sign of a destructive cult to enforce silence, forbid discussion of certain ideas, encourage worshiping the leaders in a cult of personality, and discourage members from reaching out and studying other systems of thought that might make them reflect on the nature of the cult, and eventually leave it.

are there really any mystery schools worth merit that just teach anyone? let alone free? the questions you put forth shows a lack of experience with mystery schools, because this is something that is done to protect teachings that may other wise be abused. just the same as people are screened for guns, or entered into federal systems when they acheive a certain level of mastery of martial arts, this is to protect others. magic is something that can be used to create, or destroy. the level of teachings that i have learned & experienced already, could potentially cause problems in the wrong hands. this is expressly my personal opinion though. TDS does the exact opposite of discouraging people to study other systems. In fact, I personally was practicing Solar Neigong, Chang San Feng Taiji, & an Energetic Sword Form from Quanzhen, they emphatically encouraged me to continue both practicing & learning Taoism, due to it being energetically compatible with their practices. when I visited, they had me perform these forms in front of everyone present, which was probably 30 people, including both daskalodos & the daskaloi. hardly a cult-like attitude in my opinion. matter of fact they encouraged me to introduce a specific practice to a student that was having an issue, from the same daoist sect as the sword form. in the introduction on the website, they expressly encourage students to take up things like taiji, yoga, martial arts in additional to the TDS practices, ETC. I can go on and on about examples of this but there is no need. I do not believe they are encouraging a cult of personality, in any way.

Quote
I'm sorry, but in the Probationer class I noticed none of this and I made no connections with anyone in the group I was in. How many of these experiences are people "faking it"? How many people "fake" writing in their journals on that site when they haven't done the practice? How many people outright lie and make things up, especially the Dream collective? I have talked to numerous people on TDS that have told me they are diagnosed schizophrenics. "Seeing the Scholarchs in their past incarnations" (I thought they were called Hierophants? They changed it again?)- is this really true or is it a hallucination of your mind, and hence a delusion? Buddhism says there are 65,000 forms of delusion that the mind can attach to. However, TDS's forums enforce a culture of belief using faith, with a serious lack of introspection and questioning the nature of the experiences. Everyone believes everything everyone else says oftentimes without question. This only produces delusion, and a culture of delusion.

If you were only in the probationers class, then of course you noticed none of this. there is no guarantee that one will make such connections, but a number of students do. What bismuth was talking about was visiting them in person, and the receiving the transmissions there. I personally have experienced the exact things that he has, & i can assure that i have no form of mental illness in any capacity. If anything, showing that they would accept people with certain mental illnesses which are easily treatable with modern medicine shows me that they do not discriminate on that basis, which i think is a case in which they should be praised, rather than slandered. I dont think its reasonable to assume that every single person that have wrote of their experiences, seeing as though theres more than 100 within a 4 year period, & the fact that they're scattered across the entire planet, from many different countries, creeds, cultures and ways of life, are faking it.

Introspection is, infact one of the first practices we are taught within the school which we are required to do after every practice session, retrospection as well actually. seeing as though kouji is a probationer alumni, he surely has this lecture. and expressly doesn't mention it to further project his opinion upon the seeker, in my honest opinion.

i feel that you seeing them grow up into what they have become has created a shade of prejudice and disbelief at what they have accomplished which is nothing less than completely remarkable. the fact that you say that the practices work but then discourage this seeker to check them out says a lot.

in all, the only reason i felt this to be necessary was to provide another perspective. i respect koujis opinion, as much as anyone else. but seeing as i have personally experienced vast and unprecedented growth, even faster than i had experienced using teachings that are close to 1000 years old from other very respected and well known lineages, I feel i would be a fool and selfish not to show another perspective and to encourage the seeker to check out the school. just as with anything, not every school is suited to everyone, but i believe you will find what youre looking for and so, so much more with TDS. i wish you luck on your path, whether it be with TDS or not.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:10:42 PM by Meroe »

June 21, 2013, 10:46:48 PM
Reply #6

Dancing_Crow

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Why so much secrecy?

I learned recently that the "secret" bandied about in many "secret" societies is a "secret" that cannot be communicated in words even if a member of those societies wanted to impart it. The act of participating in a specific initiation imparts a secret to the one being initiated that cannot be put into words. The details of the ritual/rite can be talked about and spread to the whole world but at the end of the day, that person received a "secret" that is beyond words. I'm not in the Divine Science nor do I know much about it so I'm speaking from the outside and just offering this up in general about the idea of "secret knowledge." Its not so much that it's a secret meaning don't tell anyone about X but rather it's a secret because it is beyond words. Just throwing that out there.

Thanks for sharing this information with us Kouijiryuu. I'm also of the opinion that no one can walk the walk for you... at the end of the day you have to do the interior work no one can do that for you. I disagree with what I understand you to say regarding energetic transmission though. I've experienced it. From my point of view, energetic transmissions are not so much someone else doing your spiritual work for you but rather making a reservoir of energy available to me that I wouldn't otherwise have access to in order to do my own interior work.

Thanks again.
"Allow the beauty and grace of what you love BE what you DO and KNOW."

June 21, 2013, 11:25:26 PM
Reply #7

Impervious

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I, for one, agree with Koujiryuu on this. I think that Ramose and Veos are excellent spiritual teachers. They definitely know what they are doing, and they've helped me a lot. Having been through the Probationer class myself, however, I do think too much of an emphasis is placed on them being infallible. Nobody is infallible, and it is foolish to think that anybody is.

I am not trying to "dis" on TDS or anything like that. I would love to continue with the classes once I have a more reliable income, but I have several problems with the school. They are much the same as Kouji's, but I will post them in a numbered list below, if for no other reason than to re-emphasize his points.

1.  They did ask most of us to solely focus on their teachings when I was a probationer. If you had a very good reason to be practicing yoga or something, they were willing to make exceptions of course, but the general sentiment seemed to be that you should definitely only be performing what they told you to. (After reading Meroe's post, I am willing to concede that this has either changed, or I was reading things the wrong way. I still think that this was at least heavily implied in some of the lessons.)

2. There is no room for disagreeing with the Hierophants/Scholarchs/Daskolodoi (can someone please tell me what to call them? I'm not trying to be rude, but I really have no idea what they go by now). If you don't agree with any of the teachings, you are not supposed to say anything about it on the forums. This is a HUGE issue for me. If the system is as good as many believe it to be, it should be able to stand on its merits against any sort of criticism. I've seen a lot of people disagree with Koujiryuu's views on Qi Gong, and kobok's interpretation of Psi, yet they are both still more than willing to debate their 'attackers'. I've also NEVER seen either of them try to straight-up ban people from disagreeing with them. They are both confident enough in their own paths to take any criticism in stride. Healthy debate and criticism is a good thing. The fact that TDS seems to disallow this speaks volumes to me.

3. Everything about TDS does SEEM cult-like. I won't go so far as to actually call the school a cult, because I don't think that Ramose or Veos intend it to be, but many of their students do treat it like one. They place their masters on an untouchable pedestal and obey their every word unquestioningly. Questioning their authority (see above) is almost seen as a threat. Their dubious claims of an invisible lineage stretching back to the time of Pythagoras and Plato only further remove the masters from their actual human nature. In short, if you disagree with anything the masters have to say, then you are considered wrong, regardless of any sort of concrete evidence you have.

4. There IS too much emphasis placed on the teachers doing things for you. Yes, they expect you to do daily meditations. Yes, they expect you to do a good amount of work by yourself. But, at the same time, it is implied that without their transmissions, and without the energies of the teachers, it will take you close to an eternity to reach any tangible goals. This makes no sense. Spiritual practice is a good thing, regardless of if you do or don't have teachers like that. It is simply a fact that you can make a lot of progress on your own. It isn't like members of TDS are the only ones who can make meditation "work".

I will re-iterate: I think TDS is a fantastic school, and I think Ramose and Veos are fantastic people. Their policies are what I take issue with. It's so sad to me, because I think the school could stand just fine even if it allowed criticism on its forums, or even if it didn't claim an (impossible to prove) lineage. They don't need any of their cult-like policies to be a good school; I think they would be an even greater school without them. It brings me great sadness that they think these policies are necessary.

I am sorry for any run-on or fragment sentences; I'm typing this out on the fly.

EDIT: Also, can we get some info about those other orders in this thread, so we aren't discussing only one of the orders Bismuth mentioned? Isn't there a thread somewhere in the Magick forums that talked about the pros and cons of various orders? I'll try to find it in the morning.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:15:49 AM by Impervious »
(18:23) (@kobok) They taught me about that moth in college.
(01:06) (@kobok) (⊙ ‿ ⊙)

June 22, 2013, 01:41:25 AM
Reply #8

Dancing_Crow

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Here are some links to some old threads on some Orders. Not sure if the info therein is still relevant.

Going to Join AMORC:  http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,16707.0.html
Orders: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15922.0.html
Occult Orders: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,8811.0.html
Working Alone or in a Group: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15835.0.html
Starting out properly: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,19027.0.html
"Allow the beauty and grace of what you love BE what you DO and KNOW."

June 22, 2013, 01:44:01 AM
Reply #9

Arrow

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I am a student of the Divine Science and I hope the following explanation can help ease your frustration or possible fear about the school. I have been in it for years now and have witnessed many things for myself and can offer you some insight. I cannot address every issue but I can focus on the more important subjects.

This is for Koujiryuu mainly. Firstly, have you gone past the Probationer class? As a probationer, you are given very basic concepts as to what the school teaches. I don't believe you have not been in the school long enough to be considered a student yet. It's possible that you are very "wet behind the ears" and do not have enough personal experience with the school to make the claims you have stated. Have you gone to visit them in person yet?

Ramose and Veos encourage everyone to visit in person so that it is more a personable means of learning about their teachings. The online school is only the virtual outlet for the school. What really counts is the time you get to spend in person around Ramose and Veos, the assistant teachers and fellow students of the school. At their home, you can meet many other well-grounded, warm hearted people who have many stories about their experiences with the school. I believe this is the experience you should try to have first before really deciding for yourself whether they are legitimate or not. Until then, it can only be distant observation and guesswork as for their legitimacy. Healthy skepticism is good to have. It will keep you safe from harm of those unfortunate spiritual leaders who really are out for money, lots of students and fame. Although, if there is too much skepticism, it can cause an accidental misunderstanding of those who really are good spiritual teachers and have important teachings to offer.

Yes, Ramose and Veos are fairly young in age but they are wise in spirit. There are students of all ages who come to learn from them. They have been practicing since they were 14 years of age. In spiritual matters, physical age isn't really a factor to determine someone legitimacy as a teacher anyhow. And if they are already giving spiritual transmissions and teaching at a young age, I find that to be even more impressive. :)

Divine Science is secretive about teachings that are too advanced for anyone who isn't ready to receive them. It is for the safety of new students that they do not receive spiritual practices and knowledge too soon. Even knowledge alone can be too powerful for the mind to understand. In order to ensure that students receive the teachings when their ready, the school asks that people do not share their teachings with others. If someone is ready to receive new teachings, it's required that a well-rounded experienced teacher give them the proper knowledge and practice to ensure they receive the right information.

In the spiritual communities, if you look hard enough, spiritual transmissions are quite common. I have seen this amongst revered buddhist lamas, yogi saints and a daoist teacher. It is this personal experience in my own life that allows me to understand that what Ramose and Veos are doing is quite the real deal. In the west, it is very hard to see a westerner do such things as this when we commonly see eastern teachers lead spiritual communities.

I looked over the list of numbered problems that Impervious has with the school. These things I can find to be understandable for anyone new to the school. I may be able to help you understand why it has the policies it does. The school is set up for practice and advancement for students who will take the path seriously and with much dedication. I've been a part of a few other traditions, and this one has been the hardest to train in because they require more out of you. In other traditions, they're a little more flexible in how you decide to advance, whether that takes a few months or the rest of your life, it's up to you. In the Divine Science however, the teachers require you to study and be practicing in order to advance further. There is very close communication with your teacher. This takes work on the students end which a lot of Orders don't really encourage you to do.

Next to the intense training system, the body of the school (the community, cultural norms, policies, etc) of the school is based around old spiritual traditions that have been used for thousands of years. You can find other such norms that revolve around traditions such as buddhism, daoism, sufism and the yogis for example. And the Divine Science has one as well.

At the end of the day, if anyone doesn't feel comfortable being a part of a particular spiritual community, it simply may not be for them. There are many countless traditions out there that may be more suitable. No one is forced to stay or learn from Ramose and Veos or any of their assistant teachers. They are open to all with loving arms who wish to learn in the school but they also understand that it isn't for everyone. They wish spiritual growth for every person, no matter what school they wish to be a part of.

"Psychotherapy may begin with the primitive, but it must end with the divine, for both are integral factors in the human mind." -Fortune

June 22, 2013, 04:29:34 AM
Reply #10

bismuth

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Thank you Meroe, Impervious, and Dancing_Crow for your responses. I'll try and respond to everything as best I can.  

It's true, as your spirit awakens it lays out a path of light for you to follow. On that path there are many options and other paths that want to distract you that it can get very confusing. Books, teachers - some real, some not, some you simply don't agree with. A friend of mine wanted me to join a school he is in, and when I went I was shocked when I heard their speaker talk. It was practically fear mongering in the disguise of light - theirs was the only way and you better practice or else you will not make advancement in this life. I highly believe in their path but their presentation really threw me off. There may be one true path, but too many claim it to be so. I was surprised someone that was supposedly so spiritually advanced was speaking this way. I believe there are many paths up the mountain of enlightenment, and the same path does not work for all. We are all at different points of evolution in this eternal existence and all of our vehicles are different in this life. You can't sail a boat down a gravel road.

I am grateful that my spirit has lead me to the mystery schools but there are many to choose from. I have narrowed it down to the above mentioned and even then it is difficult to choose. I mean no disrespect to any self-initiates by saying this, but what I am looking for is not a school started by recent self-initiates. I have no doubt that they would have many great things to offer and teach, but I am personally looking for a contacted school with a more solid history. Personally, I do not doubt the lineages that TDS claim, it is obvious they have students advancing at a very quick rate and I am still highly interested in them. The original teachings come from a divine source, and these ancient lineages hold keys to your spirit that something more modern may not, and can better lead your spirit down a path that will enable you to give back to creation and spread your light in a way that only an adept of those lineages can.

I haven't personally noticed any elitism coming from TDS, rather they seem to be the opposite - the posts that Veos, Prophecy, Koujiryuu, and others have shared with this community are, the real deal and not theoretical. Everyone here seems to go out of their way to share and help others.  
The colored robes, wands, objects all of those - that is tradition spanning back since the beginning and I think psychologically it also plays a huge role, it makes it special and specific. The theatrical aspect not only carries its own energy (for example, certain energies or spirits are attracted to certain colors or objects), but it makes it more official. I've always appreciated everyone's own rituals. Most important is that there was a reason that they have done it like this since the beginning in the first place. I question most things, but I am not about to question the rituals of an Egyptian or Atlantian priest and I'm glad to see these traditions and rituals are being carried on.

At the beginning of their teachings I can understand that they would want you to focus on their teachings temporarily at least, because if you are studying too many things your advancements may become muddy and it will be difficult to tell what advancement came from where. I think it's also important because it will give you a feel for their energy and their system more clearly. I am currently studying Qi Gong with a master from China, but once I join an Order I will be taking a break from it temporarily so I can focus on the energy of the Order. After a while I will combine the two and study them together. Hopefully they will compliment each other and accelerate my progress.

As far as the energy transmissions go, they are very real. I should have explained before that it wasn't a mere touch of the shoulder and I'm immediately advanced - no, it is much different. It is a very specific set and order of movements and sounds, like placing the pieces of a puzzle together, but instead it's placing and aligning pieces of the energy of your spirit. It is not to be misinterpreted as someone doing the work for you. When you cross paths with a master such as these, it is exactly what was supposed to happen - it was determined as part of your path. Your spirit did do the work, by making sure you got there. We all come from the same source, and I believe it is what we are meant to do, when the right spirits cross our paths. We are to help them unfold, and I know for a fact that is what I am meant to do in this life when I am able to. It was told and shown to me that my gift is to help others in this way, helping others remove the layers of darkness to reveal their inner light. In doing so it is not helping only them, but when more people start connecting with their spirit and the inner light begins to shine, it advances the vibration of this entire reality. We are meant to help each other get there. I hope that people don't think of this as doing your spiritual work for you. This is why we have the mystery schools and the masters. It would take millions upon millions of more years of evolution to reach levels we are now capable of reaching without learning and receiving from others and the enlightened masters.

It is true, the secrets and the energy transmissions that one receives are almost beyond words. I don't really know how to explain what I received, other than that it was a planned part of my path to receive them and that it advanced me significantly further to the point that it's like several new "layers" have been added on to my reality and I don't see or feel the same. In everything now I see creation and the creator, and when I move around, with focus, it is similar to moving through water. Very hard to describe. It is like my spirit bloomed like a flower, and like a plant that breaks through the dirt, it is now constantly reaching toward the light. Compared to this, previously it was like I was viewing the world through tunnel vision, with a smoke screen over my eyes. I am truly grateful.

Is there anyone out there that can shed some light on the other Orders listed also? There are posts from several years ago explaining how they were transitioning or changing entirely their views and so I was hoping to find out more about their current status as I respect them all highly.

Thank you all again.
Be well.




June 22, 2013, 04:38:52 AM
Reply #11

bismuth

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Thank you Dancing_Crow for that list, I have actually gone through those threads previous to my original post multiple times, and they were a huge help in my deciding upon my final list to choose from.
The posts are several years old and I'm not sure they reflect the current status of the mentioned schools but I appreciate you posting them.

Arrow thank you for your response, I agree with you on your points.
I think it is very important for one to be in physical presence of their teachers, and other students.
Does TDS have any sort of lodge in the North East?

Thank you all.
Be well. 


June 22, 2013, 06:44:28 AM
Reply #12

Impervious

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 Thank you, Arrow. That didn't really change my opinions, but it did ease a few concerns. Also, I'm glad to have more positive posts about TDS in this thread. Hopefully, if nothing else, bismuth will have a balanced idea of what to expect if he does join TDS. :)

Dancing_Crow: Thanks very much for finding those links!

EDIT: I  just noticed the other posts. Forgive me for not inserting quotes, but I'm having trouble using my phone. :P

bismuth: Unless I am mistaken, their only house/temple is  located somewhere in Florida. Many people find the trip worth it, though. I know of one student, at least, who found a way to travel from Las Vegas to get there. So long as you keep an open mind to their teachings, but also remain skeptical and analytical, I can't imagine the trip not being worth it in some way.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 06:57:15 AM by Impervious »
(18:23) (@kobok) They taught me about that moth in college.
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June 22, 2013, 12:58:16 PM
Reply #13

Koujiryuu

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I'm just going to touch on a few things here for simplicities' sake.

First, I respect Ramose and Veos greatly. I have known Ramose online for years, probably longer than anyone here, and though I don't believe everything he says, and I don't agree with some of the ways he does things, I know he is a wise person and a great teacher. Ultimately, however, I have been practicing exclusively Qigong and Yoga since they were 9 years old. Keep in mind how many different paths they've claimed are correct since they were 14. When I see signs in front of their temple in pictures with phrases like "respect your spiritual seniors" it causes many alarms to go off. I don't think there is such a thing, nor should it be any kind of competition. The various grades of students within the order are assigned titles and ranks and this causes competition. I disagree with this, just like I disagree with playing dress up to make ourselves feel special (REGARDLESS of tradition, it's the same thing). I should also make it clear I am not a teacher of TDS or affiliated with them in any way besides being a former Probationer, since Bismuth kind of lumped me in there. I am a Veritas Teacher and I run my study group and teaching here.

I am glad you all have had positive experiences. I am especially glad they allowed you to demonstrate a Qigong form in front of people and encouraged people to seek spirituality wherever you can find it. This, however, does not remedy the facts that myself and Impervious presented about outside teachings and traditions being officially discouraged on the website, and a culture of secrecy (even if it's for a supposed good reason), these are two telltale signs of a cult.

If it's black and white and it moos, it's probably a cow.

I don't doubt that some students have had results from energetic transmissions. I am a skeptic and a realist however, and I know for a fact that some people fake, embellish or exaggerate their actual experiences in order to gain attention and feel "special". This happens everywhere, including here. When the experiences are subjective and they aren't analyzed, studied scientifically, proven to be repeatable, and verified in real life through proof, this causes problems. However, it didn't seem that this kind of culture of self verification of metaphysical experiences is encouraged or even thought of on TDS.

No, I haven't visited them because I cannot afford to, and I'm generally averse to weird cults. Again, there are many signs of this evaluation. Additionally, I would feel no different if I visited a Daoist cult, a Hindu ashram, or any other Western order. To their benefit, TDS doesn't charge anywhere near some of the ridiculous prices and member fees other cults do (siddhayoga.org). They don't ask for $2500 for a weekend retreat for a "shaktipat intensive" or anything like that. So, credit to them there. However, this doesn't change my evaluation, and many members of Veritas agree with this evaluation, though I won't name names. Again, if it's black and white and moos, it is a cow. I think 95% of educated American adults would probably agree here, regarding ANY such order.

Quote
the body of the school (the community, cultural norms, policies, etc) of the school is based around old spiritual traditions that have been used for thousands of years.

The community, cultural norms, policies, and the students in general are my biggest problem with the school. I believe in the teachings of Ramose and Veos and believe they can advance you spiritually. Having known Ramose for a long time, I trust him as a teacher, and I trust those he has installed as teachers, under him. I disagree with charging money for spiritual teaching and I disagree with taking steps to make yourself seem like you have authority, such as playing dress up and so on. However, who I don't trust is the overall community, and the problems with lying about experiences and faking things that are immediately obvious to anyone who reads the forums. I also dislike the methods of grading students into different classes, and then that stuff coming back to me like "oh you're only a Probationer you're wet behind the ears" and so on. Perhaps I cannot make an accurate assessment about the school because I haven't visited. However, it seems to me that anyone who goes there does it to get personal attention from Ramose and Veos, and they could probably care less about the other people there. The whole focus is on the teachers, and they give lectures and so on. It seems like it's less about the other students, and in my experience online I didn't connect with or care about anyone else's progress, only my own. I think that mentality carries over into real life visits and I think it's a problem.

Someone mentioned something about "how many mystery orders have you been in"... and to that I say none other than TDS, because again, I'm averse to mind control and cults. I think a lot of people join these kinds of orders to feel different and special compared to other people who are not in it, and who don't have the secrets, and don't get to play dress up and make believe. I have worked hard on my path for 15 years and I am solely responsible for my own progress in Qigong and Yoga. I don't need to be in an order because I am more confident in my own ability to lead myself spiritually, and this is exactly what I was getting at. I don't believe in masters, there is no such thing as a master or enlightenment, read U.G. Krishnamurti. I am my own master.

To that end, I believe the teachers at TDS can help you and the practices can help you if you can ignore all the bullshit from other people and ignore some of the things like controlled suppression of dissension and information. That was my main point and my only point. YOU are responsible for your own spiritual progress, no one else can do it for you, and if they tell you they can they are lying.

I went into my Probationer class skeptically, my thoughts about the school were skeptical, and knowing some of Ramose posts as Prophecy here and his often grandiose claims, I ultimately was skeptical of him as well. Because of this, I was able to participate objectively, and since I haven't visited or made friends with anybody, I am still able to remain objective about the school. My objective evaluation from an outsiders perspective is that it appears to be a cult, and I can say this because I have researched exactly what a cult is and the psychology behind mind control and thought reform. Ultimately, I did gain something of value from the school, in the Vision of the Angel meditation, and I am interested in continuing further in the school. However, again, I am objective and grounded in reality and accept things for what they are. So, this doesn't change my evaluation, even if I did find some benefit from the teachings.

Ultimately, people are going to believe what they're going to believe, oftentimes without rationality, logic, introspection (how many people actively try to prove the reality of their experiences there scientifically?) and scientific validity. Personally, while I respect Ramose, I do think he runs a cult, and he knows I think this, but is such a good teacher that he answers my questions and accepts me for who I am and what I do anyway. This is an excellent quality. I believe others can learn from him and I believe what he is trying to do is positive, but I have many of my own doubts and questions and despite expressing them, they are unresolved and unanswered by the teachers there.

I wish you all the best of luck. Not everyone is going to agree that the place is 100% positive.

It should be noted that Veritas has no affiliation with Ramose and Veos and TDS and technically they are retired teachers here. We do not endorse or support them as an organization. Veritas and TDS have always been and will always be separate entities.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:09:32 PM by Koujiryuu »
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Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

June 22, 2013, 05:51:16 PM
Reply #14

Prophecy

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Don't be so dramatic. There are no conspiracy theories, cults, mind-control, or any other Illuminati/New-Age backwards working taking place. Too much television and Youtube videos.

History has already defended most things, so there is no point going into great detail. The transmission of energy is called Shaktipat in yogic culture, it is in their scriptures, and it has been done for a very long time, apparently with good results. I have met many people who have accomplished things that also believed in its power. Wearing robes, using items, etc, is also all very traditional. Taoists, Buddhists, Sufis, Swamis, etc, all do the exact same thing, and they are all making plenty of progress, and seem to be doing fine. Many traditions change or add things to their names upon initiation: Taoists, Buddhists, Sufis, Swamis, Native Americans, etc, all do this exact same thing, and they all seem to be doing fine in spite of it. You just have to understand my general approach. My general approach is to never, ever, assume that I am smarter than all of these people, with their combined thousands of years of experience and resounding success on the spiritual path.

There is no problem or harm though in any criticisms, it is all very good and productive, and makes people think. Veos and I were very aware when we started the school that it would be strange to most westerners, and a little hard to swallow. People use the word "cult" alot, and I am beginning to think that being a cult is a good thing. So far, it seems to mean being organized (having a staff, budget, etc), having a clear teaching structure (such as professors vs. teachers), having a set curriculum (like a college course), having a support structure (akin to guidance counselors, clubs, etc), encouraging a community (like school activities do), and being good enough at what you do that more and more people also want to try it out. As a bonus, you get to dress like a wizard and its okay. Before I did all of these things with my teachings, no one ever, literally not once ever in all my time here at Veritas, called me a cult leader, even though I still had many "followers" and "students."

As for criticisms being handled in the school, that is just my way, I'm old-school like that. Its the way I learned, and its the way I teach. I'm not teaching because I'm interested in your opinion, and hundreds of students are not joining the school because they are interested in your opinion. That is a harsh truth and does not go well with the more fluffy approach to things today. Not everyone will like it, some people leave, and I hope they find what they are looking for. I like that they leave, and the students who remain tend to do very well. I might add that in reference to talking about other traditions, other teachers, etc, we do this constantly in person at the actual house and during the meditation retreats. I just don't like it being done on the forum, I'm funny like that. I also do not think it is nice to call hundreds of students frauds, liars, victims of hypnotism, or whatever else. I've met many of them, they are my friends and good people. If you do not understand what they are experiencing then just say to yourself "they are experiencing something but I do not know what," and leave it there. This is actually the reasonable approach.

Finally, no one is ever forced to learn from Veos and I. We are who we are, we teach how we teach. God has provided the world with many spiritual teachers from all traditions so that seekers have the power to choose. So when you come to try and learn from us, if you don't like the way we teach then to me the honorable action is to happily go on your way to a different teacher. I have had to do this also, but at no time did I ever downtalk those who had honestly tried to help me. And if you say whatever you want about us, know at least that Veos and I do always at least try to help you. If you do not wind up liking the way that we try, then we deeply hope that you find what you are looking for elsewhere, and are never petty about it in any way.

We are not brainwashers, cult-leaders, or reptilians from the moon, these three being equally absurd and following the same conspiracy mindset. On the other hand, neither are we masters, ascended beings, infallible, all-knowing, or any other equally-silly accusation. I'm a fellow who has been practicing for about ten years, I saw some really enjoyable results, I learned some neat things from some neat people, and I am passing it on while still very much being on the path myself. Disgruntled people tend to be the loudest, so a few of my disgruntled people talk on Veritas about the school, but the overwhelming majority seems to really be enjoying my efforts.

That is how I feel about myself. I want to share whatever I know with whoever is ready to endure the objectively simple constraints that I require. If you can't endure those, I do not know what else you can endure anyways.

Now if you have any questions about the school, questions not accusations, feel free to ask here and I will reply. A pinch of knowledge dispels tons of worry, superstition, or imagination. I normally don't spend much time on other forums, but I will check back here a few times.