Author Topic: What is Jing?  (Read 50472 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

May 27, 2013, 08:24:49 AM
Reply #30

Aunt Clair

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1164
  • Karma:
    -51
    • View Profile
    • River of Enlightenment
I love Bardon's work. I believe all have suffering in their lives and that those who have become masters of some aspect; magick, metaphysics, martial arts are not immune to suffering but tend to have it heaped upon their plates. In fact the Buddhist nuns and monks teach that they are mindful to be thankful for all that occurs to them and to realise with joy that suffering is removing negative Karma from past life transgressions and facilitating enlightenment.

The colours of the tattwas, nadis, chakras and other subtle energy structures and elemental energies were anciently recorded in Vedantic texts and Yoga teaches that these can be viewed;
"Nadis are astral tubes made up of astral matter that carry Pranic currents. They can be seen by the astral eyes only. "
.......~*~Love, Light & Laughter~*~
~*~Meditation & Mysticism is Magick!~*~

May 27, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
Reply #31

Koujiryuu

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Scholar-Warrior

  • 1340
  • Karma:
    101
  • Personal Text
    內功。導引
    • View Profile
Quote from: quabbal
Yoga and Sex Scandals: No surprise in Taoist Sexual QiGong groups either

Lets' say you are a so-called "Taoist guru" and you want to have, repeatedly, intercourse with minors way under the age of consent, with the excuse of practicing your taoist practices, cool isn't it, then how are you called(p.d..file, he doesnt even hide it, just take a loot at his recent photos, and "feel" his vibe, and teaching sexual practices among young hotties, jeeez does he love that. Yes many of his instructors know these things, but you can't bash your master(trademark) now can you), and where do you go where life is cheap, and you get a lot of minors very young girls. Thailand (CM)

His way of teaching is not bad(if only the single good thing about him), but his materials, you can do without, don't worry. He has made a brand name of himself, so being as an instructor of his, maybe there is some bonus.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. Good article you linked.

My sex life is my business...but I should make it clear that there's a reason I don't teach any of these methods on Veritas.

Sure, I'm familiar with some of the techniques described in Mantak Chia's book. I'm also familiar with Xi Shui Jing as I have all the information I want on it in Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" book.

Personally, I don't practice these methods or any sort of Tantra. I think they're dangerous and unnecessary. I also think they have a high capacity to corrupt people.

My Qigong is closer to a fighter's Qigong but at a higher level it involves Qi circulation practice and Fire and Water meditation. NOT tantra or sexual practice. You don't need those for spiritual fulfillment and they are a dangerous path.

Sure, I've experimented with things like Xi Shui Jing but I would never teach them nor would I really be interested in learning them in person (eww). I am also familiar with couple's practice but I would NEVER do that because I believe it's immoral. I love my girlfriend and I don't want to steal her Yin Qi from her during sex. That is about the most unloving thing you can do. Not my thing.

Guys, you really don't need any of these methods to become a strong fighter or Qigong practitioner. Stay away.
My Articles
Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

May 27, 2013, 02:10:56 PM
Reply #32

Shinichi

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 640
  • Karma:
    80
  • Personal Text
    The Eternal Student
    • View Profile
    • A Wolfe's Notebook
Ahem. I would like to introduce a slightly new line of discussion into this topic.

In Yue Fei's Ten Important Theses, his discussion of the Six Combinations gave me the impression that martial Power and the Essence that Jing is are two fundamentally different things. Rather than being one of the three treasures, or being directly related to it, the results of the Six Combinations implies the Martial Power ("Jing") is the result of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li all working in perfect harmony and balance. When the Mind, Spirit, and Body are unified and work as one body instead of three, there is Power.

And yet, for years, everyone discussing Martial Power always discusses "Jing" in its relation to the three treasures, not its relation to the Six Combinations an the alignment of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li.

Now, I'm not saying that the three treasures and Jing as Essence aren't important to martial arts. But, what do you think about this slightly different perspective provided by Liu He (Six Combinations)?

Discuss. :cow:



~:Shin:~
~:Completed the 2013 Qi Gong Study Group:~

"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

May 27, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
Reply #33

Koujiryuu

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Scholar-Warrior

  • 1340
  • Karma:
    101
  • Personal Text
    內功。導引
    • View Profile
Quote from: Shinichi
Ahem. I would like to introduce a slightly new line of discussion into this topic.

In Yue Fei's Ten Important Theses, his discussion of the Six Combinations gave me the impression that martial Power and the Essence that Jing is are two fundamentally different things. Rather than being one of the three treasures, or being directly related to it, the results of the Six Combinations implies the Martial Power ("Jing") is the result of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li all working in perfect harmony and balance. When the Mind, Spirit, and Body are unified and work as one body instead of three, there is Power.

Not having read or heard of the Ten Important Theses, I'll do my best to answer this.

This comes from the distinction between Jin (internal power) and Jing (essence). Technically, they are separate ideas. However, in many internal arts taught in America, they are taken to mean the same thing, but in different applications. This is why Taijiquan has Peng Jing, Fa Jing, Lu Jing, Ji Jing etc. and Baguazhang has Ming Jing, An Jing and Hua Jing. These are all different forms of expressing power in martial application. As far as I know, they are all also rooted in balance and using your center of gravity (the Dantian).

The way I see it, internal force (Jin) is derived from the essence (Jing). Of course, as you mentioned, to apply internal force you must have understanding of and be able to apply Yi (which is Shen), Qi (breath and energy) and Li (physical strength, muscular strength).

In the internal arts, Jin(g) means power. In Daoist Alchemy, Jing means essence. Through practices like the Microcosmic Orbit, Kan and Li meditation, Macrocosmic Orbit, and many other transcendental meditations, we strengthen and develop Jing (essence). A direct result of this is the renewal of the body, causing a vibration in all the cells of the body. This essence begins to flow backward and up the spine to nourish the brain and Shen. This vibrating energy has direct application in internal arts, and it begins to envelop and strengthen the muscles. Even more so if you practice something like Yi Jin Jing (Iron Shirt). The Qi and also the Jing (essence) of the body moves into the muscles and strengthens them. When combined with Zhan Zhuang (stance training), the Jing (essence) directly becomes Jin (internal force), and using proper technique you can apply this internal force in martial arts.

So, there is a bit of confusion around this topic, but the way I see it, the two terms are similar enough in actual practice as to basically be the same thing. Technically? Yes they are different. However, it's much easier to explain to Westerners that they are one and the same thing because they are VERY closely related anyhow.

Quote
And yet, for years, everyone discussing Martial Power always discusses "Jing" in its relation to the three treasures, not its relation to the Six Combinations an the alignment of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li.

Now, I'm not saying that the three treasures and Jing as Essence aren't important to martial arts. But, what do you think about this slightly different perspective provided by Liu He (Six Combinations)?

See above.
My Articles
Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

May 27, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
Reply #34

Shinichi

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 640
  • Karma:
    80
  • Personal Text
    The Eternal Student
    • View Profile
    • A Wolfe's Notebook
Not having read or heard of the Ten Important Theses, I'll do my best to answer this.

http://www.nei-jia.org/hsingichuanclassics.htm

They are the "Xing Yi Classics," written by Yue Fei himself, according to the annals of martial arts history. I first heard of them in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Xing Yi. In the back of the book, he includes the ten essays with his commentary. I have treasured the book for that alone, besides all of the other information it has on Xing Yi. The doctors translation is also better than the one provided in the link, but that is the only place I could find them online in a quick search.

To the rest, thank you. That certainly does clear up a bit for me.



~:Shin:~
~:Completed the 2013 Qi Gong Study Group:~

"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

May 27, 2013, 03:11:14 PM
Reply #35

Koujiryuu

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Scholar-Warrior

  • 1340
  • Karma:
    101
  • Personal Text
    內功。導引
    • View Profile
Thanks for the link, I'll look through that another time.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Taijiquan student, or a Baguazhang student, or a Xingyiquan student.

However, over many years of scholarly research of these arts, and my own personal martial arts practice using Tao of Jeet Kune Do, I believe I have unearthed and learned the principles of Fa Jing, also known as explosive power or the one-inch punch. Erle Montague's site helped a lot with this, so did studying Bruce Lee. Of course, I understand it well in the context of Internal Alchemy, and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books helped a lot with this.

So, I don't know all of the myriad applications of Jing in Taijiquan. My understanding is limited.
My Articles
Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

May 27, 2013, 03:18:36 PM
Reply #36

Shinichi

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 640
  • Karma:
    80
  • Personal Text
    The Eternal Student
    • View Profile
    • A Wolfe's Notebook
That's acceptable. Even with that, you gave a logical explanation and articulated something in a way that many have tried and failed to do, and finally made me understand something that has confused me for years.  :wink:



~:Shin:~
~:Completed the 2013 Qi Gong Study Group:~

"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

May 27, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
Reply #37

Mind_Bender

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1135
  • Karma:
    88
  • Personal Text
    Deus ex Machina
    • View Profile
I haven't read the book that was mentioned, but in the Baguazhang style I have been learning the, if I remember correctly, the Six Combinations are related to the Three Treasures of Jing Qi and Shen, but are also related on a more physical level of the connection of your joints, thus your movements and blood flow (Qi is the Mother of Blood, Blood is the General of Qi- a Qigong proverb I picked up in the '72 Arts of Shaolin').

Wrists, elbows, shoulders, ankles, knees and hips all work in accordance with each other (Six Combinations). For proper Qi flow and martial power you connect these combinations as pairs that must work together as you move from the center. That is, hips and shoulders are one link, elbows and knees are the second link, and ankles and wrists are the third link (Three Treasures). They are connected by what is called Cocking the Five Bows (legs, arms and spine). This Cocking of the Five Bows builds internal power by extending and strengthening the tendons, ligaments and muscles. This process then strengthens your bones (Steel Wrapped in Cotton- or Iron Body) because your muscles are squeezing your bones and as you perform your Qigong and/or martial practice, you are enhancing this squeezing, thus the strength, elasticity and density of your tendons, ligaments, muscles and bones with fighting techniques and/or breathing methods. This is the 'secret' behind Iron Body and Golden Bell... actually the secret is years of hard and dedicated practice. Just thought I'd mention this.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

May 27, 2013, 06:56:43 PM
Reply #38

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. Good article you linked.

My sex life is my business...but I should make it clear that there's a reason I don't teach any of these methods on Veritas.

Sure, I'm familiar with some of the techniques described in Mantak Chia's book. I'm also familiar with Xi Shui Jing as I have all the information I want on it in Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" book.

Personally, I don't practice these methods or any sort of Tantra. I think they're dangerous and unnecessary. I also think they have a high capacity to corrupt people.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Intense or incomplete (or intense incomplete!) exercises of ANY sort are dangerous. In pretty much every spiritual tradition that addresses sexual energy, they all agree it is a very powerful type of energy. Powerful energy, if not handled appropriately, can harm.

To add to the issue, many people have an incomplete knowledge of some of these practices. And so their instruction in them can be dangerous.

TheTaoBums has had many discussions on the harms of practicing Mantak Chia's system of sexual qigong. But a lot of conversation has come out of that as to where exactly sexual practices fall into a system. Most members of a fully developed system agree: sexual practices belong within the greater context of a complete system. A complete system teaches you how to balance your mind and how to handle strong flows of energy. This should be preparatory work and laid as a foundation LONG before sexual practices are even looked at.

Many people skip this, or purchase one or two books online out of context, and get hurt practicing. That's not necessarily the fault of the practice. The practice is just doing what it does.

Again, ANY practice taught under those conditions is going to have a disproportionate amount of students having issues. Consider power lifting. Power lifters have very specific sets of physical techniques and training regiments for building up to lift certain amounts of weight safely. A person going into it (or heaven forbid, TEACHING it) with an incomplete understanding is going to get hurt. If they did maybe a lesser practice, they might not see the results. But such an intense practice? They're going to get hurt.

Further complicating the issue with sex practices is the general climate of sex acceptance in the West. Even amidst consenting adults, certain sex practices are socially frowned upon in polite society. Again, that has nothing to do with the efficacy of the practice.

Tantric practices are neither dangerous nor unnecessary, and again, pretty much every complete spiritual tradition that I have seen addresses them in some fashion.

What they ARE is powerful and transformative. That there are people with an incomplete knowledge of them using that incomplete knowledge to take advantage of other people (whether it is a matter of social acceptance or legality) again has nothing to do with the practice.

TEACHING an incomplete practice, or a practice of which you have an incomplete understanding, IS what is dangerous.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

May 27, 2013, 08:16:54 PM
Reply #39

Koujiryuu

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Scholar-Warrior

  • 1340
  • Karma:
    101
  • Personal Text
    內功。導引
    • View Profile
Quote
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Intense or incomplete (or intense incomplete!) exercises of ANY sort are dangerous. In pretty much every spiritual tradition that addresses sexual energy, they all agree it is a very powerful type of energy. Powerful energy, if not handled appropriately, can harm.

To add to the issue, many people have an incomplete knowledge of some of these practices. And so their instruction in them can be dangerous.

TheTaoBums has had many discussions on the harms of practicing Mantak Chia's system of sexual qigong. But a lot of conversation has come out of that as to where exactly sexual practices fall into a system. Most members of a fully developed system agree: sexual practices belong within the greater context of a complete system. A complete system teaches you how to balance your mind and how to handle strong flows of energy. This should be preparatory work and laid as a foundation LONG before sexual practices are even looked at.

Many people skip this, or purchase one or two books online out of context, and get hurt practicing. That's not necessarily the fault of the practice. The practice is just doing what it does.

Again. These exercises are dangerous, they hurt people, they can corrupt morals, and furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West.

I never said sexual energy isn't important. Sublimating and turning the sexual energy inward to nourish the organs and induce Qi flow in the spine is possible without these techniques. I achieved this on my own at the age of 17 through Kundalini yoga. I didn't need any sort of tantra or sexual practices to do it, and I still don't. All I needed was Yi and a mantra. If I can do it, I believe anyone else who is so inclined can. And because of the dangers of the sexual techniques I am going to stick to what I said, that they are particularly dangerous, and ultimately unnecessary.

Quote
Further complicating the issue with sex practices is the general climate of sex acceptance in the West. Even amidst consenting adults, certain sex practices are socially frowned upon in polite society. Again, that has nothing to do with the efficacy of the practice.

Tantric practices are neither dangerous nor unnecessary, and again, pretty much every complete spiritual tradition that I have seen addresses them in some fashion.

What they ARE is powerful and transformative. That there are people with an incomplete knowledge of them using that incomplete knowledge to take advantage of other people (whether it is a matter of social acceptance or legality) again has nothing to do with the practice.

TEACHING an incomplete practice, or a practice of which you have an incomplete understanding, IS what is dangerous.

Exactly, the sex practices aren't taught here because they are taboo.

Again, you can have powerful transformative experiences without them.

As far as teaching an "incomplete practice", I'm unsure as to whether to interpret this as a low blow against me (again), or if you're just saying it literally.

Someone can be taught to throw a proper straight cross punch with minimal effort. They can use this effectively in self defense if they have to. However, you're basically saying that if someone didn't learn every boxing punch, train 3 hours a day in a gym, jump rope, run, lift weights, take supplements, that they could not punch. This is a logical fallacy. Sure, they wouldn't be able to beat up a pro boxer, but they could still learn to hit someone hard with one particular punch.

In the same vein, someone who practices just one Qigong set a day can get a good workout, increase overall health, connect with their own energy, have improved mood, have better blood circulation, and many other things that are scientifically proven. This is why you see old folks practicing Taiji. Are they practicing a complete system? No. Is what they are practicing incomplete? Yes. They are not doing sitting meditation, they are not doing Qi circulations, they probably aren't learning how to generate and use internal power, and so on. This doesn't mean it's dangerous for them to practice simple Qigong- quite the opposite.

My own exercises and experience, and my Qigong study group, are basically a hodgepodge of techniques that I've learned from different sources over the years. They are not a "complete system". They don't come from a "lineage". However, they are all connected and upheld by Daoist philosophy and Qigong theory, and taken together, form my own personal approach to a Daoist lifestyle. Further, I have the grace to share what I know with others, for free. Nothing about this is dangerous, and in my experience everything I do has benefited me positively. All those warnings about dangers of practicing Qigong on your own are bullshit and are a ego ridden guilt trip to try and make you go and pay thousands of dollars for a spiritual retreat when you could spend $20 on a book by Yang Jwing-Ming or Wong Kiew Kit and learn essentially the same things.

If I wanted to, I could very well lie and say "I was taught a system by ancient hidden masters" or some other such nonsense, like others do, and claim I'm some kind of "adept" or whatever, but I don't. I'm honest about what I do and where it comes from. And many people here support me and want to learn what I do, even knowing that it is not a "complete system", and that my own understanding is limited. After all, I'm just a student of the Way as well.


My Articles
Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

May 27, 2013, 09:11:01 PM
Reply #40

Shinichi

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 640
  • Karma:
    80
  • Personal Text
    The Eternal Student
    • View Profile
    • A Wolfe's Notebook
I haven't read the book that was mentioned, but in the Baguazhang style I have been learning the, if I remember correctly, the Six Combinations are related to the Three Treasures of Jing Qi and Shen, but are also related on a more physical level of the connection of your joints, thus your movements and blood flow (Qi is the Mother of Blood, Blood is the General of Qi- a Qigong proverb I picked up in the '72 Arts of Shaolin').

Wrists, elbows, shoulders, ankles, knees and hips all work in accordance with each other (Six Combinations). For proper Qi flow and martial power you connect these combinations as pairs that must work together as you move from the center. That is, hips and shoulders are one link, elbows and knees are the second link, and ankles and wrists are the third link (Three Treasures). They are connected by what is called Cocking the Five Bows (legs, arms and spine). This Cocking of the Five Bows builds internal power by extending and strengthening the tendons, ligaments and muscles. This process then strengthens your bones (Steel Wrapped in Cotton- or Iron Body) because your muscles are squeezing your bones and as you perform your Qigong and/or martial practice, you are enhancing this squeezing, thus the strength, elasticity and density of your tendons, ligaments, muscles and bones with fighting techniques and/or breathing methods. This is the 'secret' behind Iron Body and Golden Bell... actually the secret is years of hard and dedicated practice. Just thought I'd mention this.

It's nice to see Bagua's version of Liu He.

Yue Fei divided the Six Combinations into two parts.

Three External Combinations:
Wrists and Ankles Combine
Elbows and Knees Combine
Shoulders and Hips Combine

Three Internal Combinations:
Yi (Wisdom Mind) and Xin (Heart Mind) Combine
Yi and Qi Combine
Qi and Li Combine

In both explanations, though, the goal is the same: combine all of these separated facets of the human being into one unified force.



~:Shin:~
~:Completed the 2013 Qi Gong Study Group:~

"There is no such thing as Impossible, it's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will can be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise.

May 27, 2013, 09:55:50 PM
Reply #41

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Again. These exercises are dangerous, they hurt people, they can corrupt morals, and furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West.

Too many issues here.

Quote
These exercises are dangerous

These practices are not inherently dangerous. They are what they are. Just as 400lbs of weights are what they are.

If you know what they are doing, they are fine. If you practice an incomplete or incorrect method, THAT is where the danger comes from.

Quote
they hurt people

Incorrect practice methodologies hurt people. It may be that a teacher just never learned the proper methodologies. Or maybe the teacher did learn the proper methodology, but did not learn how to properly adjust the technique for a student. Neither are the faults of the technique.

Quote
they can corrupt morals

A large portion of mainstream thought thinks most of the stuff discussed on this board is immoral. I don't think it's wise for us to be using the same argument that is used against us.

What do you mean by moral? Is having group sex immoral? Is having group sex for spiritual purposes immoral? Is hooking up with a 16 year old Taoist qigong student immoral? Is hooking up with a 16 year old outside of the context of Taoism immoral? What about 17? 18? What if I'm 17? 25? 35?

There are charlatans and con-men (and con-women) everywhere. Sylvia Browne has been caught on video spouting bullshit which is proven to be false, but people still listen to her "psychic" readings. Does that mean that legitimate practices of scanning or clairvoyance (taught on this board!) are dangerous or lead to the corrupting of morals? Absolutely not.

Quote
furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West

Which has nothing to do with the practice.

Frankly I'm surprised that you strung together that series of statements as reasons.

Quote
I never said sexual energy isn't important. Sublimating and turning the sexual energy inward to nourish the organs and induce Qi flow in the spine is possible without these techniques. I achieved this on my own at the age of 17 through Kundalini yoga. I didn't need any sort of tantra or sexual practices to do it, and I still don't. All I needed was Yi and a mantra. If I can do it, I believe anyone else who is so inclined can. And because of the dangers of the sexual techniques I am going to stick to what I said, that they are particularly dangerous, and ultimately unnecessary.

It's possible to sublimate sexual energy without engaging it. It's also possible to sublimate sexual energy while engaging in it. That you can do one does not make the other unnecessary.

I can achieve orgasm with my right hand. Does that make sex unnecessary?

Quote
Exactly, the sex practices aren't taught here because they are taboo.

Which says more about society than the practice themselves.

Quote
Again, you can have powerful transformative experiences without them.

I'm not saying you can't.

My point is that there's more than one way to skin a cat. One way is not better or worse.

Quote
As far as teaching an "incomplete practice", I'm unsure as to whether to interpret this as a low blow against me (again), or if you're just saying it literally.
x

When did I give the first low blow?

The specific case I had in mind was Mantak Chia's practice. A good number of the original members of The Tao Bums were from the Healing Tao forums, and one member in particular talked about having to go in for an acupuncture adjustment after doing sexual qigong found in Mantak Chia's books. Sufficed to say, the dude's body was pretty messed up.

Through much debate and back and forth, it was pretty much acknowledged that while Chia's techniques may have been legitimate (similar techniques appear in other traditions) they were not taught within the greater context of mental stilling methods (to ensure the mind is not thrown out of balance by the increase in energy) or in energetic circulation methods (to prevent the stagnation or chi) nor diagnostic methods (so students or teachers could detect problems before they occurred).

Hence, their practice was "incomplete."

That does not mean that methods that engage in sexual energy are inherently dangerous. But practicing them in the incorrect context is.

Like much of Taoism, timing is important. The right action taken at the wrong time can be the wrong action.

Quote
Someone can be taught to throw a proper straight cross punch with minimal effort. They can use this effectively in self defense if they have to. However, you're basically saying that if someone didn't learn every boxing punch, train 3 hours a day in a gym, jump rope, run, lift weights, take supplements, that they could not punch. This is a logical fallacy. Sure, they wouldn't be able to beat up a pro boxer, but they could still learn to hit someone hard with one particular punch.

I used the power lifting analogy for a very specific reason. Powerlifting, like working with sexual energy, is inherently "higher grade."

If someone decided to do pushups, but were doing them kind of wrong, didn't have perfect form, you know, they might get some soreness, but overall, they might not get a whole lot of development with the practice. They may even get some muscle gain, and that could lead them to bettering their form in the long run.

Same with most regular sets of qigong. Even if they don't do it perfectly right, in the worst case scenario they won't get terribly hurt, and in the best case scenario, they might seem some benefit.

But powerlifting and sexual qigong are working with dramatically higher volumes. Poor form in power lifting can get you (and others) very hurt very quickly. Working with more intense forms of energy provides the same risks.

I'm speaking of sexual qigong specifically, but you can also extend this to physical yoga (exerting yourself beyond the range of motion your body can handle) as well as energetic yoga (people getting burnt out from a kundalini awakening).


I hate to use such a tired old phrase as "playing with fire," but it kind of is. Fire helped humanity rise to where we are today. But if you don't know how to handle it, you are going to get hurt.

Is fire inherently dangerous? Would I dissuade people from using fire? No. You could start eating raw foods and make the argument that fire is "unnecessary" to being healthy, and houses burn down all the time from kitchen fires.

Or you could just teach people how to properly cook using fire.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 10:00:52 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

May 27, 2013, 10:21:39 PM
Reply #42

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
And watch the karma go down..... :P
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

May 27, 2013, 10:22:54 PM
Reply #43

Koujiryuu

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Scholar-Warrior

  • 1340
  • Karma:
    101
  • Personal Text
    內功。導引
    • View Profile
Quote
It's possible to sublimate sexual energy without engaging it. It's also possible to sublimate sexual energy while engaging in it. That you can do one does not make the other unnecessary.

Exactly, and my point. If one way is so inherently dangerous and practiced incorrectly, but you can achieve the same thing a different way that is far less dangerous, which route would you choose? Further, what does this say about my character, or the character of someone teaching non sexual methods of transformation? This is why I advise against sexual yoga and don't practice it myself. You can achieve the same results a different way and they are equally as powerful.

Lets not forget that Xi Shui Jing, which deals almost entirely with the testicles, as well as Mantak Chia's methods of inducing retrograde ejaculation, cannot be practiced by women at all. Are women then to be excluded from Daoism spiritual practice?

Thankfully, there's a better way.

Quote
Which has nothing to do with the practice.

Frankly I'm surprised that you strung together that series of statements as reasons.

They are all valid reasons. You have basically cited in your two posts exactly what I said in that sentence.

Quote
When did I give the first low blow?

When you claimed for the 5th time that Qi isn't real, all of the practices are psychosomatic, then proceeded to call me selfish because I "sit around circulating energy in the Microcosmic Orbit all day" (which I don't). You also quoted the Daodejing about a patience, which you said I lacked, and essentially said I was a hypocrite. Also, ignoring the fact that I was sincerely trying to help you out. I cannot rationalize those posts now except to think they were a waste of my time and yours.

Quote
The specific case I had in mind was Mantak Chia's practice. A good number of the original members of The Tao Bums were from the Healing Tao forums, and one member in particular talked about having to go in for an acupuncture adjustment after doing sexual qigong found in Mantak Chia's books. Sufficed to say, the dude's body was pretty messed up.

Through much debate and back and forth, it was pretty much acknowledged that while Chia's techniques may have been legitimate (similar techniques appear in other traditions) they were not taught within the greater context of mental stilling methods (to ensure the mind is not thrown out of balance by the increase in energy) or in energetic circulation methods (to prevent the stagnation or chi) nor diagnostic methods (so students or teachers could detect problems before they occurred).

Hence, their practice was "incomplete."

That does not mean that methods that engage in sexual energy are inherently dangerous. But practicing them in the incorrect context is.

Like much of Taoism, timing is important. The right action taken at the wrong time can be the wrong action.

I agree with all this, especially the "timing is important". This is the biggest problem I have with Mantak Chia's work.

Also, what Mantak Chia says is Daoist sexual practice is almost completely different from what Yang Jwing-Ming (and the Xi Shui Jing classic) says about sexual practice. I wonder who's right?

It really doesn't matter if the practice is incomplete or not if there's another way of doing things. Who is to say when it's complete or not? Do you have the audacity to think you know enough about Daoist sexual practices to be able to tell when? I sure don't.

Quote
I used the power lifting analogy for a very specific reason. Powerlifting, like working with sexual energy, is inherently "higher grade."

If someone decided to do pushups, but were doing them kind of wrong, didn't have perfect form, you know, they might get some soreness, but overall, they might not get a whole lot of development with the practice. They may even get some muscle gain, and that could lead them to bettering their form in the long run.

Same with most regular sets of qigong. Even if they don't do it perfectly right, in the worst case scenario they won't get terribly hurt, and in the best case scenario, they might seem some benefit.

But powerlifting and sexual qigong are working with dramatically higher volumes. Poor form in power lifting can get you (and others) very hurt very quickly. Working with more intense forms of energy provides the same risks.

I'm speaking of sexual qigong specifically, but you can also extend this to physical yoga (exerting yourself beyond the range of motion your body can handle) as well as energetic yoga (people getting burnt out from a kundalini awakening).


I hate to use such a tired old phrase as "playing with fire," but it kind of is. Fire helped humanity rise to where we are today. But if you don't know how to handle it, you are going to get hurt.

Is fire inherently dangerous? Would I dissuade people from using fire? No. You could start eating raw foods and make the argument that fire is "unnecessary" to being healthy, and houses burn down all the time from kitchen fires.

Or you could just teach people how to properly cook using fire.

I agree it's higher grade energy. However, as I stated, you don't have to use those methods to achieve success and induce Qi into the spinal cord. Personally, I see almost no value in sexual yoga, and no compelling reason to practice it, because I have other methods that do the same thing.
My Articles
Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

May 27, 2013, 10:38:26 PM
Reply #44

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Exactly, and my point. If one way is so inherently dangerous and practiced incorrectly, but you can achieve the same thing a different way that is far less dangerous, which route would you choose? Further, what does this say about my character, or the character of someone teaching non sexual methods of transformation? This is why I advise against sexual yoga and don't practice it myself. You can achieve the same results a different way and they are equally as powerful.

And it is entirely your prerogative to practice whatever method you want to practice, and teach whichever method you want to teach.

But I don't know that your reasons for advising against it paint the full story, and I have addressed those points specifically in the above posts.

Quote
Lets not forget that Xi Shui Jing, which deals almost entirely with the testicles, as well as Mantak Chia's methods of inducing retrograde ejaculation, cannot be practiced by women at all. Are women then to be excluded from Daoism spiritual practice?

Um, there are actually lots of sexual practices for women to do.

Unless you think the ancient Taoist dudes just had sex with the other Taoist dudes and left the women do, you know, non-sex things.

Quote
Thankfully, there's a better way.

There are alternate ways.

Quote
Quote
When did I give the first low blow?

When you claimed for the 5th time that Qi isn't real, all of the practices are psychosomatic, then proceeded to call me selfish because I "sit around circulating energy in the Microcosmic Orbit all day" (which I don't). You also quoted the Daodejing about a patience, which you said I lacked, and essentially said I was a hypocrite. Also, ignoring the fact that I was sincerely trying to help you out. I cannot rationalize those posts now except to think they were a waste of my time and yours.

I don't think that post was about you.

I also titled the post "MAYBE I don't believe," emphasis mine.

I make a lot of fairly nuanced points. I may try making them again. But they were missed the first time so...

Quote
It really doesn't matter if the practice is incomplete or not if there's another way of doing things.

Sure it does. Otherwise you're discarding an entire practice simply because it doesn't jive with you!

Quote
Who is to say when it's complete or not? Do you have the audacity to think you know enough about Daoist sexual practices to be able to tell when? I sure don't.

Just things to look for and what to look out for.

Quote
I agree it's higher grade energy. However, as I stated, you don't have to use those methods to achieve success and induce Qi into the spinal cord. Personally, I see almost no value in sexual yoga, and no compelling reason to practice it, because I have other methods that do the same thing.

And I don't see any compelling reason to lift weight when pushups can build muscle just as well.


My philosophy is this: If you're going to do something, do it right. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all.

Plenty of people out there are teaching garbage and passing it off as "sexual qigong". Plenty of people teaching ineffective or incomplete techniques out there. It ain't right, so don't do it. I'm fine with that.

But there ARE legitimate lineages which include practices of sexual qigong out there. Rare as they are and as impossible as it may be to find an authentic teacher in your area, that does not discount them as a practice. And that there may be a range of either outright frauds or honest but misguided teachers out there also does not discount the practice.

You may have reasons for not practicing them, and not teaching them, but that does not discount the practice.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 10:43:17 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End