Author Topic: Official Ninjutsu Thread  (Read 85328 times)

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December 06, 2004, 06:42:32 PM
Reply #75

DownRodeo

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That's coz we weren't really fighting kittens :D " OOOH WE ARE SECRET/sexy NINJA's AREN'T WE!!!!!"
"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies on the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers... and you've got to make it stop!"
Mario Savio

December 10, 2004, 10:51:07 AM
Reply #76

Blue Shinobi

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As to he who said that aikido is the closest art available in comparison to ninjutsu, they are sadly mistaken. Some of the simple body dynamics are the same, but that is true of many martial arts. Ninjutsu does not ignore reality as aikido does, but embraces it. Aikido incorporates no attacks, whereas ninjustu is almost nothing but attacks (at least on a mission). One who believes that he can defend another with aikido deserves what is coming to them.
Nothing is to be feared, only understood.

December 12, 2004, 01:31:46 AM
Reply #77

Tsumaru

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(at least on a mission)

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One who believes that he can defend another with aikido deserves what is coming to them.

And here is where I stopped paying attention to you.

1. This is the modern world. There aren't ninjas going out on missions anymore to assassinate people. -_-' (Oh, and please dont get all smartass philosophical and spiritual and say anything in life is a mission to a true Ninja, as I've had people say to me before)
2. Every traditional art if diligently and properly trained in has its purposes and advantages, not excluding Aikido. You are simply ignorant and arrogant.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 12, 2004, 01:04:07 PM
Reply #78

Daemon

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ouch....everyones titled to their own opinion
One who loves his life, will loose it...one who despises his life, will keep it for all eternity.

December 12, 2004, 03:22:33 PM
Reply #79

Tsumaru

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I'm going to quote quitewarriors signature now:

"You can either agree with me or you could be wrong."

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but in some cases opinion is nothing compared to fact. And the fact is that there are no real Ninjas anymore. Yes, I'd liked to consider myself a Ninja, but I dont go around on "missions". And another fact is, traditional Aikido if properly trained in IS useful. The final fact is quite simply Blue Shinobi doesnt know what he's talking about. He can have his opinion, I won't take that from him, but in this case he is simply wrong.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 12, 2004, 08:28:58 PM
Reply #80

GhostWolf

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Wow, ive been away for a bit and look what I missed
Ok time to wade in at least up to my neck…! Grin!

Hatsumi chooses to call it “Bujinkan Budo-Taijutsu’ – if your studying in a bujinkan school then your doing budo taijutsu no matter what you choose to call it personally
Go argue it with Hatsumi sensei…hahahaha

Personally I prefer ninpo taijutsu but that isn’t what Hatsumi or any of his shihan are teaching.

And unless you are training in evasion & escape, infiltration, sabotage & espionage then your not really practicing Ninjutsu anyways – if you are then im sure the Australian government would like badly upon it since it is now considered as an act of terrorists by Australian law.

Oh and unless your training includes horse riding, swimming, explosives and a whole heap of other things then you aren’t being true to ninjutsu heritage either…

So how picky do you want to get Tsu?

The taijutsu means body movement – implied in this (since Japanese is hard to directly translate to English properly) is the ideas of space and awareness and distance – just look at Hatsumi’s DVD’s – they’re not titled Bujinkan or Budo Taijutsu, they are titled “Martial Arts of Distance”. Now this doesn’t just mean physical distance …go think about that bit
Taijutsu is body movement not unarmed techniques – as was said before, you need taijutsu to use weapons properly – if you have bad taijutsu your weapon work will be atrocious
Taijutsu also includes the ability to relax and go with the flow and not be stuck in one space – ive heard Hatsumi tell people to move through space like a butterfly and seen him do so – try it be free and move within your chosen space, see what a difference it makes to your taijutsu

As to ninpo and ninjutsu…
Ninpo is more than the way it is the philosophy and the esoterics and the feeling – again limited by Japanese translation. If you are learning ninpo directly in your dojo then you are very lucky since as far as I know only Hatsumi and maybe some of the higher Shihan actually teach that…and btw just sitting with your eyes closed and saying the words shikin haramitsu daikomyo does not really involve ninpo

Ninjutsu is not just the physical movement – and is very different to just any karate or other purely physical martial art…the concepts behind the ninpo flow into the physical arts and by doing the jutsu side of things we unconsciously begin to embody the ninpo side of things

I have found over the years that a person thoughts and feelings are reflected in the way they move – the way they move also is reflected in the way they think…they are interconnected…as are ninjutsu and ninpo.

To be honest id think it would be better to take info from your instructor – or higher teachers from the bujinkan than put my faith in “wikapeadia” or any other online source

Have you ever heard the quote from Hatsumi “shut up and train”?
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

December 13, 2004, 12:48:08 AM
Reply #81

Tsumaru

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When I finally thought my arguments were resolved, The "I Am King of Ninjutsu" Dumbass returns and starts it up again. I'm going to put this simply because I've got a headache and am sick of dealing with the morons on Veritas, yourself included:

Just take your own advice and shut up.



Oh, and here's a tidbit of knowledge:
My old Sensei (I trained with him for not quite a full year, and only in one of the classes a week, so I dont know everything about him) is a 9th Dan (or was it 10th?) who apparently trained with Hatsumi (by with, I mean he and Hatsumi were both students under the same person) under another Sensei (I'm not 100% sure whether it was Takamatsu or someone else. I'll have to look into that). As such, I really do have total faith in him and what he's teaching me, and would rather not have people implying I am learning crap etc, as I've had a few people do in the past, and I feel like I'm getting from this comment (though I may be wrong):
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If you are learning ninpo directly in your dojo then you are very lucky since as far as I know only Hatsumi and maybe some of the higher Shihan actually teach that



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Go argue it with Hatsumi sensei…hahahaha

You know, I gladly would. Seriously. I think it'd be an interesting discussion, and from what I know of him, he likely wouldn't object to it. I know my own Sensei wouldn't mind that particular discussion if he was in the same position, and if Hatsumi is any more developed through Ninpo then he, I'm sure he wouldn't mind either. To imply that just because he is grandmaster that he would declare total superiority and shun all others for not doing as he says or trying to discuss something with him about differing opinions is foolish, and anybody who IS in that situation probably shouldnt be a grandmaster of a traditional martial art.


I won't get into any of the other things other then that, as it's useless. It's really not worth the time. All you're doing is being a total smartass who really hasnt payed proper attention to the topic and is just starting up arguments that have already been resolved.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 13, 2004, 02:43:40 PM
Reply #82

GhostWolf

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Quote from: Tsumaru

Oh, and here's a tidbit of knowledge:
My old Sensei (I trained with him for not quite a full year, and only in one of the classes a week, so I dont know everything about him) is a 9th Dan (or was it 10th?) who apparently trained with Hatsumi (by with, I mean he and Hatsumi were both students under the same person) under another Sensei (I'm not 100% sure whether it was Takamatsu or someone else. I'll have to look into that).


Now you cant go and make a claim like that and not give the name of the fellow you trained or when and where you trained.

I had no idea that any folks of that age where in australia teaching. And due to your age I would love to know when it was, as many teachers wont instruct those under a certain age.

I never stated that what you were learning was crap!

It seems Tsu that you resort to name calling and tantrum throwing when not everyone agrees with you – nice Ninpo!
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

December 13, 2004, 03:26:59 PM
Reply #83

Tsumaru

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Ha. No, not really. I harldy threw a tantrum. And I didnt resort to name calling, I pointed out observations. If I was resorting to name-calling, it would be like "You fucking dumbass. Why are you starting another argument again when we'd already solved it? Retard." etc etc.

I really dont care what you think about whether or not someone of that skill would be teaching in Australia or not, or who they would teach or not. And I usually prefer to keep such things private, as I'm not sure whether my dojo would like me throwing around names and locations online. In fact, we have very little advertising for our dojo because we kept getting the wrong sorts of people coming. People who just wanted to learn to fight and injure someone. HOWEVER, because I figure it couldn't hurt that much, I will tell you.
http://www.sakushin.com - The three dojos listed there are all connected. They are run by blackbelts trained under my old Sensei. My old Sensei, as far as I know, doesnt teach at any of them anymore. He still runs yearly Tai Kais. I think he may be coming back to teach at one of them sometime halfway through the year however.
His name is Steve McEwan. I'm not 100% on the spelling. It might be McEwen. It also might be Steven or something. But, we know him as Steve, and his surname is something along the liens of McEwan.

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I never stated that what you were learning was crap!

I feel you half implied it. However, it was also directed at other people who have also suggested as much to me in the past.

Quote
Now you cant go and make a claim like that and not give the name of the fellow you trained or when and where you trained.

I can if I want, and nothing is going to stop me. It's simply the fact of you always acting like you know everything, and nobody could possibly be better then you which led me to the fact that I'm sick of your bullshit so I actually did give you a name, and a list of dojos which are all interconnected under the same original teacher.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 15, 2004, 08:41:51 AM
Reply #84

DownRodeo

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Ghostwolf, atlough i agree with some of the points ou have raised in your post, i feel that I had already tackled most of them in mine and didn't need repititon, i feel also that you contradicted your self at one vital point in your intial retort to myself and tsumaru's string of posts. The main issue being, that you said ninpo is not taught by many people other than hatsumi and his shihans. This at face value is only true of the Bujinkan. Hence,  I would like to direct your attention to the Genbukan webiste http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_ninpo .

Going back to my comment about 'face value'. I say this because, although you stated that Ninpo is not taught at many Bujinkan Dojo, you later stated that, as one is instructed in the art of Ninjutsu, one devolops 'Ninpo', "by doing the jutsu side of things we unconsciously begin to embody the ninpo side of things". And unless i am mistaken pertaining to the intent of this comment, I believe you have contradicted yourself, because by YOUR OWN recognition, those who learn 'Ninjutsu' also learn 'Ninpo' indirectly.

However, this is not my belief, as I have seen it and as i further understand the relationship of Ninjutsu with nature and the idea's of Buddhism, Ihave to realise that 'true' Ninpo cannot be taught. Sure, all the fancy 'seishin teki kyoyo'/sakki/Kuji-in w/e is instructed, but really the ultimate goal of a REAL martial artists is the attainment of Kokoro and eventually enlightenment and i do not believe that Ninpo is the ONLY path to this end. Ninpo cannot be instructed, the potential for Ninpo is an inner quality one that i believe many 10th+ dans do not have. (Especially with the rumours I have heard about them and Kangaroo's in Australia...) In fact i am sure that some of the men and women that carry REAL 'ninpo' in their hearts and minds have taken their sakki test and left it at that. (Not to say that some of those who have carried it on are any worse).

I am disapointed with your missuse of Hastumi's quote "Have you ever heard the quote from Hatsumi “shut up and train”?". I doubt he would have used it for the purpose in which you employed it,  I do not think it is Ninpo that YOU used in that instance. I would have thought that you would have more respect for a fellow practitioner even if you are in dispute with him. Had you attained a firm understanding of Ninpo, i doubt very much that you would be trying to post about it here. And from that you may also take that i know very little of Ninpo and im not ashamed to say that. I think we ALL must turn away from this and learn something.
"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies on the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers... and you've got to make it stop!"
Mario Savio

December 15, 2004, 03:56:27 PM
Reply #85

Tsumaru

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(Especially with the rumours I have heard about them and Kangaroo's in Australia...)

What?


Anyway...

"But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it."
I figure it could be likened to that in so many ways. Your teacher, Hatsumi, all other students, they help to show you the door of Ninpo. But, as you said, a lot of it must also be learnt inside yourself through your own maturing and spiritual progression. In that way, it's your own responsibility to walk through the door and do the rest of it on your own.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 15, 2004, 06:38:03 PM
Reply #86

GhostWolf

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Dawn Rodeo,
Sorry I only have experience of bujinkan and so that is what I was commenting on – I apologise for not distinguishing that point.

As to contradicting myself – I stated that Ninpo is not taught “directly” but during the course of training you learn ninpo “indirectly” – there is a difference and I did make the distinction. Without years of indirect exposure and training in ninpo then one would have little or no chance of grasping ninpo in a more conscious setting.

I would like to beg to differ on the point that ninpo can be achieved in ways other than through training in ninjutsu. It is probably semantics but unless you did train in the ways of nin – physical and spiritual then following the ninpo is by definition impossible. I am most sure that similar paths and understandings could be attained and followed but although similar, would not be ninpo. I also think that the ninpo of medieval japan is much different to the ninpo of today. As the jutsu evolves so does the po – although the essence remains the same.

I agree that many high ranking folks have not grasped some of the finer details – but see below – it’s a personal journey with personal obstacles.

I agree with Tsu – martial training is definitely a personal thing – we each approach it differently – not to say one or the other is better or worse – its personal – my way is best for me and yours for you!

I am far from achieving budo of zero and that is why I continue to train – the shut up and train comment was based on the fact that there was bickering over meaning of Japanese words – and resorting to internet sources rather than teachers is rather pointless.
 
thanks for the genbukan link - i will look itover
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

December 15, 2004, 07:07:00 PM
Reply #87

Tsumaru

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and resorting to internet sources rather than teachers is rather pointless.

Are you not an internet source?
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

December 15, 2004, 09:29:26 PM
Reply #88

GhostWolf

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at least i can respond to queries

at least one step better than Wikipaediea
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

December 16, 2004, 12:40:15 AM
Reply #89

Tsumaru

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Response to queries or not, you're still just a person posting your opinion on the internet, with no more evidence of knowledge then anyone else on the forum. As such, it's the same with websites - simply people we dont know posting knowledge. So why do we believe you any more then a website? =/

On a similar topic, I was looking at Ninjutsu videos online the other day. Gah. Those guys wearing blackbelts are TERRIBLE. I'm only 5th Kyu and I swear my Kihon Happo has better form then these guys. -_-'
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.