Author Topic: Official Ninjutsu Thread  (Read 78680 times)

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May 23, 2004, 06:16:07 AM
Reply #30

quitewarrior

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Tsumaru-he got an e-book of off the site kazaa(an illegal file sharing site where you get mp3's,videos,etc.). He said that if you get the book the ninja handbook then thats for dungeons and dragons. But there is another book apparently that tells you about ninjutsu.
You can either agree with me or you could be wrong.


What would you rather be,honorable and dead,or dishonorable and alive."

May 23, 2004, 08:08:26 PM
Reply #31

GhostWolf

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i didnt mention anything in a postive or negative light

i asked for a discussion...

ive read "martial arts madness" and wondering if its worth getting the other 2 books by glenn morris

if you know about kuji kiri please share...

im not into letting an author make up my mind...quite capable of doing that myself thank you

also curious to get other peoples thoughts about the breathing aspects of the sanshin no kata
GhostWolf

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Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

May 23, 2004, 08:21:50 PM
Reply #32

Tsumaru

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Can you be specific? You can't just say "Here's a topic - discuss it." It doesn't work that way. Post your OWN opinion, pose a question in regards to a topic, or something of that sort. But you can't expect us to just all of a sudden start talking about a subject just because you tell us the topic.

Quitewarrior, it was this part which got me confused:
If you want it just search for ninja or something but get this one called "the ninja hand book" which is one about "doungens and dragons" i hate that shit
It's like he's saying "Get the Ninja Hand Book which is for dungeons and dragons, which I hate." and considering he's saying it's real earlier on, it sounds like he's contradicting himself multiple times. O_O
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

May 23, 2004, 08:44:26 PM
Reply #33

GhostWolf

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my own opinions

at the moment i am instructing basics...

with the sanshin no kata im still getting students to breath inwhen stepping and out when striking.....slwoing it right down to less than half speed so they get it right, rather thnan trying to rush it

i would liek to know if other folks do it differently

i have also experimented with the elemental breathing associated with each of the kata with different effects to the basic breathing
i am also curious about other ppls thoughts on the void kata breathing...especially with the metsubushi/distraction technique
i was talking to a student discussing the variations...the idea of trying to breath out whislt doing metsubushi as it is a strike...a feint....you need to fully make ooponent feel it is a real strike/attack
or the idea of breathing in to draw the opponent into the feint...

is that enough of a start for you to comment on tsumaru?

as to kuji...well all my students are still at the begining...save one who has a long history in occult, magical and taichi/yoga practices

i was wondering what would be an appropriate way of introducing this...
mostly ive jsut been going by feel...as not all my students are interested in or could cope with the esoteric side to ninjutsu

as to glenn morris...the book i read...MA madness...hes seems to at least be well read/researched...and from the way he writes and details his experiences it gives me the feeling that he is also truthful

his discussions on the various types of "masters" out there also rings very true as i have also experienced many of them....
the guys who just liek to wear the jacket that says sensei or shihan...and demand that they be addressed as sesnei "name"

from my years in karate i found very few ppl who had even the remotest inkling regarding the more esoteric side of it..the breathing etc

even when training in the ninjutsu i still found very few except some of those who regulalry trained in japan with hatsumi sensei

and these days you get ppl like sensei wayne roy who really pushes the esoteric/intuitional side in his literature...but to be truthful ive not been in one of his classes to see fi they really train it...or if the idea in most dojos is just that you train hard and properly and by the time you reach 5th dan you will have amzingly just developed your extra awareness....

with the students who can understand it i plan on doinf actual awareness drills and activities such as at night to improve these senses

now please make some comments
GhostWolf

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May 24, 2004, 05:03:24 AM
Reply #34

Tsumaru

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I've also been taught to use that breathing method, however it applies to almost all techniques, not just the Sanshin No Kata. I believe it has something to do with internal dynamics and chi etc, but I'll have to look into that. It just seems to work better that way. *shrugs* Can you please elaborate on what you're referring to by saying elemental breathing?

I'm shocked to hear you say that you are teaching a Ninjutsu class, and yet still don't know what metsubushi is. It is not a strike, or even a faked strike as such. It is a distraction. That COULD come in the form of a fake strike, but it is not strictly so. Here is how I described it earlier on these forums:

Egg shells filled with powder, small mirrors, small explosives etc were common ways to distract or blind your enemy. They are called "metsubushi", and even Hatsumi says they are used. Heck, quite often it didn't have to be specifically prepared. Just picking up some dirt, gravel, mud etc from the ground would classify as metsubushi if used properly.

So though a fake strike IS a form of metsubushi, it's not exactly what metsubushi is, and in the case of Ku (Void) in the Sanshin No Kata, it doesn't apply. Assuming you have been trained properly, the metsubushi is utilized in the fashion of throwing something in their face in this case, or using a mirror to flash sunlight in their eyes (or just the fact you're throwing your hand up above their head to draw their vision up, if you don't have any other choice, though it's not AS effective). This is apparent based on the fact the hand is flung up towards their face. If it was meant to be a strike, it wouldn't be performed in that manner, and they would react by stepping back while blocking most likely, which is not the case. Instead, they are just having their head knocked back and their eyes blinded (generally an empty hand being flung up isn't effective, because a proper fighter can remain with eye contact while being struck at, rather then needing to look at the limb).

Note that I'm only 7th Kyu, so if I made a mistake I apologize, but as Sanshin No Kata in the Gyokku Ryu is really basic, I believe that I'm not overreaching the boundaries of my knowledge and what I've been taught. However, if everything I say is completely correct and you can admit that (or at least not logically argue it), I'd be concerned for your students. After all, it seems strange that a blackbelt of some dan or other would be corrected by an 7th Kyu.

In regards to Kuji In (I'm not too familiar with Kuji Kiri), I believe you shouldn't be teaching that at all at this stage. I believe standard meditation should be your main priority. As in, proper posture, easy breathing into the abdomen or something simple (I wouldn't force full on buddhist breathing for example onto people who are completely new to meditation, I know I found it hard at first) and the clearing of the mind while still staying alert, and centering if you want. Then probably advance to actual proper breathing (at my dojo we are taught buddhist breathing, but any good proper breathing method is fine) and getting all meditation good.

At that point, I would probably just keep that going for a while and focussing on making sure that's perfect, while slowly introducing awareness aspects into training. Kuji In would probably come in much later, in my opinion. I would imagine that they would be at the stage in which they would all be able to meditate (and should be doing so at home each day themselves) and have at least some basic idea of awareness outside of their physical sight and senses.

Well, that's my opinion on all the topics that I can remember from your post, or at least have something to say about.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

May 24, 2004, 04:59:16 PM
Reply #35

GhostWolf

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im sorry i didnt make it more clear in my previous post...

my students are beginers and i certainly wont be confusing them with breathing techniques and mikkyo/hand gestures and sounds at all for a long time if they hang around
as i said in previous post šll my students are at the beginning

save the fact that they need to learn to breath through their movements...but that to me is basics

i only have one student who has a lot of experience with occultism/yoga etc and he already understand a lot of the alternative breathing techs and has actually questioned me about them in such a way that he has shown he understands it already from different viewpoint if not specifically budo taijutsu
and he does his own meditation/yoga/taichi completely seperate from anything i teach...good for him

the others are not even ready to think about anything but the purely physical techniques...all at the kihon stage of training

now as to the metsubushi technique
at the moment i am teaching it as a distraction/fake...as the begineers have enough to take on board without the extras of thinking of throwing powders
heck most of them are still getting the sanshin no kata movements down...
what i was really asking about was possibly above and beyond your knowledge of these things...no slight on you

i was curious in regards to the breathing/energy aspects associated with metsubushi...

elemental breathing...
as to this i mean the different styles of breathing associated with each element
eg: earth slowin and out
water slow in fast out
fire fast in and out
wind fast in and slow out
void is an aspect which utilises these in different ways

now take note that these breathing styles are for exagerated training use...not specifically for use in a fight...same goes for sanshin no kata ...as im sure you know

now you didnt correct me...tho what you said was correct ...though there is way more to the sanshin no kata
as a teaser..there is also different ways of moving associated with these 5 elements...and the sanhsin no kata are by no means to be left as a straight line drill...no not directly linear...
they can also be taken and changed by using different kamae and body movement/footwork

essentially im looking at how other instructors provide those little hints at the depth of budo taijutsu to capture the enthusiasm and imagination of those students who are moving towards those deeper levels

i live in a town where most of my students are simply fly by nighters...
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

May 24, 2004, 06:13:00 PM
Reply #36

GhostWolf

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now as to glenn morris

ive only rea done book...martial arts madness...

im waiting on the other 2...so i cnat comment on them yet

now tsumaru...what does he say about kuji kiri?...

from the training and experiences ive had in meditation and visualisation he sounds fairly upfront and with it...although at times a little out there....

the concept of dealing with guides or teachers on an astral level is not new to me...i have worked with deities and other entities on the astral...watchtowers...angelic beings from working in kabbala and animals spirits...from shamanic work

im just curious if others have done so and how they integrated this into their life as well as martial arts

one comment in the book interested me...a fellow who was working with a past ninjutsu soke on the astral....

do people feel that it is a real possibility to work with / learn from past masters no longer in the physical realms?

personally i do...reason being a few...eg i have found myself explaining things to people in ways that i would never have used...using mannerisms that are not mine...possibly it is like channelling or invoking to some degree

sure it could just be many years of training expressing itself but i keep an open mind in such matters...i have only experienced full on channelling/evokation a couple of times but it is enough to convince me
GhostWolf

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Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

May 25, 2004, 04:07:48 PM
Reply #37

GhostWolf

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Quote from: Tsumaru
After all, it seems strange that a blackbelt of some dan or other would be corrected by an 8th Kyu.


tsumaru, last night i got to see an old video..."the ninja arts of masaaki hatsumi"
now even you as an 8 kyu watching this would be able to pick faults/errors/purposeful ommisions

it was fun to watch but even on this old video the metsubushi of  void kata was explained as a distraction/feint...there was no mention of throwing stuff
does this mean that hatsumi sensei is wrong?

very rarely is everythin we know on a subject just blatently written about...
doesnt mean we dont know it...just choose to be subtle
GhostWolf

"Where Angels and Dragons fear to tread"
Warriors choose peace, others are condemned to it...

May 26, 2004, 01:22:28 AM
Reply #38

Tsumaru

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Woops, typo, I'm a 7th Kyo, not 8th. Too late at night =P ^_^

First off, you dont need to make 3 separate posts. USE THE EDIT BUTTON. Sheesh.

Secondly...You know there is a huge difference between a distraction and a feint.
Quote
The act of distracting or the condition of being distracted.

Quote
A feigned attack designed to draw defensive action away from an intended target.
A deceptive action calculated to divert attention from one's real purpose.

Though a feint is a form of distraction, a distraction is not necessarily a feint. You seem to be making a lot of these type of mistakes. A pear is a fruit, a fruit is not necessarily pear.

A metsubushi is a distraction, so they quite easily could say distraction. Did they actually say feint? Was it translated? There are errors in translation, or misinterpretations. Qi can be literally translated as air and breath. If then every time the word Qi is mentioned by a Chinese person it is translated as air, a lot of mistakes can be made. If they explain that it is their Qi which allows them to protect their body, it may come out as breath, and seem strange. Or it is the cultivation of their Qi which lengthens their lifespan, which comes out as the cultivation of their air. o.O
It is quite possible a similar thing occurred. There are so many explanations. Maybe he did mean feint, or maybe he was just explaining metsubushi.

Hatsumi himself has even explained metsubushi, so I find it hard to believe that he would be saying it's just a feint, as that contradicts what he's been saying in the past.
Or, on the other hand, you could be making it up. Because I've seen a video of him when he demonstrated Ku while utilizing some dirt he had picked up off the ground. He said that metsubushi is a distraction, that can be done in many ways, from simply drawing attention with your hand (perhaps a way of saying a feint?) to actually using objects such as powder.

There are so many ways to explain your video. Assuming it even occurred. I couldn't make a proper judgement or explanation without seeing it. After all, "the metsubushi of void kata was explained as a distraction/feint...there was no mention of throwing stuff" hardly explains the video accurately.



I've never read Glenn Morris, but online I've briefly heard of his opinions of Kuji In as "a complete fallacy" or something of that sort. I've read on multiple places that he says it's just a myth that may have stemmed from basic meditation and mudras without any real extra purpose, and is just a fake belief. *shrugs*

I've never heard of that elemental breathing stuff you explained. We use standard breathing where it is all balanced at a steady pace. Sometimes we've incorporated what I can best describe as visualizing. It's not really imagining stuff, but kind of thinking about it in a way. For example, for Ka as we draw back into jumonji (not sure if you do that) after the block, we kind of imagine (not really physically imagining or anything, it's just a brief flicker of it, hard to explain) fire bursting around us and then being like a flame as we come through with the ura shuto. Sort of like that. Or with Sui, kind of incorporating the idea of drawing back like the ocean draws back from the sand, and then crashing in like a wave with the omote shuto. Other then that, it's just standard breathing with the movements.

Quote
there is also different ways of moving associated with these 5 elements...and the sanhsin no kata are by no means to be left as a straight line drill...no not directly linear...
they can also be taken and changed by using different kamae and body movement/footwork

Essentially the Sanshin No Kata can't be altered as such. There are combat variations, but you don't take the standard kata and decide "No, I don't feel like moving this way during Sui, I think I might come in at a different angle." It doesn't work that way, because the footwork, angling and dynamics are the exact reason why Ninjutsu doesn't require strength, and can all be performed by a relatively weak person. If you adjust the footwork, you make it difficult to perform the technique, if you change the angles of the technique, it might not even work at all. There ARE technique variations - ones which can be used in combat more, etc - but you wouldnt just change things around for the sake of it. Doesnt work like that.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

June 09, 2004, 06:40:44 AM
Reply #39

DownRodeo

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    • BudoTaijutsu.co.uk-Koshin Dojo Malmesbury
Quote
Essentially the Sanshin No Kata can't be altered as such. There are combat variations, but you don't take the standard kata and decide "No, I don't feel like moving this way during Sui, I think I might come in at a different angle." It doesn't work that way, because the footwork, angling and dynamics are the exact reason why Ninjutsu doesn't require strength, and can all be performed by a relatively weak person. If you adjust the footwork, you make it difficult to perform the technique, if you change the angles of the technique, it might not even work at all. There ARE technique variations - ones which can be used in combat more, etc - but you wouldnt just change things around for the sake of it. Doesnt work like that.


Sorry Tsu, i have to disagree, I do agree with you in principle, however, people are not built the same way as hatsumi is, some people have bigger lungs, legs. hands, feet ect... so the angling and the movement, even the breating HAS to be different. Secondly all the moves in Budo supposedly come from henka (variations) on the san shin and the kihon happo, but this is not so, as budo is comprised of many shools, many MORE shcools than the bujinkan teach, i have recently been introduced to 8 more schools that we have incorporated into our syllabus, many with their own variations and themes of the san shin no kata, some with different foot posistions. Hatsumi's own translator (who is a good Ninja) recently corrected my teacher on his kamae, but when looking at Hatsumi again and tanemura (the genbukan grandmaster) he changed back, because what they showed was different, the differrent schools do the san shin in different ways and all claim their way is the way to do it.

 I have to disagree in that one should find the 'budo' that is right for you, that is natural for you, and experiment with new ways to refine them, beacuase budo is a 'living art' it breathes and moves with time, we are here to nuture it, we will take it forward and it will adapt to the ever changing way of nature through us. (Hence budo's connection with taosim). For me there is no 'fixed' way to do anything only i see the san shin as 'guidelines' for budo, maybe they should be kept fixed for traditions sake, but also updated to keep them 'alive' as it were, At least that is what the multitude of ways i have seen has taught me. (Not that i have seen everything, i have see very little of what budo is...)
"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies on the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers... and you've got to make it stop!"
Mario Savio

June 10, 2004, 12:02:37 AM
Reply #40

Tsumaru

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Well, perhaps I am incorrect to an extent. Yet, I still believe that in essence, you can't just randomly change techniques. Think about this for example. Take Sui, in the Sanshin No Kata, for example. The final shuto in Sui (as I keep referring to), is what appears to be the hardest part of the Sanshin No Kata for new people. I have trained with new white belts, who just can't get that final strike right. Why? They appear to have all the footwork right, and everything seems to be fine with the evasion and block etc, so what's the problem? Their angles with that final shuto are a fair bit off. They try coming almost straight on, as with Ka, and though it has some effect, it is almost useless in comparison to the proper angling (or, as we've been taught).

There probably are variations that work almost perfectly. These are the ideal ones. And though changing footwork, angles etc might appear to work perfectly fine, I don't believe they should be taught over the ones which have a greater effect. This is the sake because Sanshin No Kata is not really combat-effective. It is primarily for training purposes. There are techniques that are taught to introduce striking methods, pressure points, and there are also techniques that teach good evasion, good blocking, and good angling to get the highest effectiveness in a technique. The ideal angles should be used, to make the Sanshin No Kata more of a training technique, and to introduce these things to the students, so they begin to get more of a feel of it all.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

June 15, 2004, 07:54:45 PM
Reply #41

Shadeknight X

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Hey ghostwolf u might want to try ( http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/ )
if u want to know some more of the kuji kiri and kuji in. And Tsu would the katas on this website be accurate? Just wonderin. And have u guys ever hear of Ashida Kim?
Po-"Hello grasshoper how is my favorite student today?"

Caine-"I'm fine old man. How about you?"

-Kung Fu (tv series)

June 15, 2004, 08:05:52 PM
Reply #42

HADOUKEN

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Ashida Kim is full of shit.  Stay away from him.
Develop mind and body to enhance the spirit.

June 15, 2004, 11:45:46 PM
Reply #43

Tsumaru

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Well, I did agree that there ARE variations of techniques. His has definite variations. Beginning in shizen, targeting etc. However, what I am arguing against, is randomly changing footwork and angles. So, as the website is very vague on what to do (drop back diagonally doesn't explain much), not only can I say whether it's accurate or not, but you can't learn off it properly. I use that website as a resource for Kuji In and occasionally talking to fellow Ninjas, but I wouldnt use it for learning. Nor would I use any website for learning for that matter. Find a real teacher.
don't believe everything you read... especially if it comes from me.

June 16, 2004, 04:56:16 AM
Reply #44

Shadeknight X

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yes i know that.  ;)  i was just wonderin how accurate this website is.
Po-"Hello grasshoper how is my favorite student today?"

Caine-"I'm fine old man. How about you?"

-Kung Fu (tv series)