Author Topic: Renaming karma  (Read 11546 times)

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April 20, 2012, 09:17:26 PM
Reply #30

Trowa

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One other thing I'd like to bring up... You guys cite Aunt Clair a lot. 

Aunt Clair probably has the lowest karma.  And yet...

Aunt Clair keeps posting and trying to contribute.

Most likely the one single person that karma could potentially affect, doesn't seem to particularly care.

Food for thought.  :)

April 21, 2012, 04:20:40 AM
Reply #31

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Morally I don’t think there is a need to mention names because most know the situation and the person involved. But have you spoken to this person regarding how it affects her and why she continues to post?

Or why not try putting yourself in that position and see if it as any effect on your feelings (good learning point in Hermetics and spiritualism) Start at lets say 17 and watch your karma fall steadily to -60, At what point does it become meaningless and is it at this point that it becomes cold? Would it effect the way you react or speak to others that you perceive may be getting at you? At what point would you say enough’s enough?

Now reverse it and see your karma rise to +60! Follow the same analysis.

At one point I thought I was heading to catch up with Anti-whatever? Politics don’t you love it!  :biggrin: :wink: :cool:
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April 21, 2012, 08:12:29 AM
Reply #32

Trowa

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It isn't even an issue of morals, it's plain fact. 

To be perfectly honest, if my karma dropped to -60, I would probably laugh.  I would see the concerted effort to get my number so low by certain people to be cute.  But, never would I assume that anyone is actually "out to get me."  Perhaps you should read this thread I made a while back:  http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,19993.0.html  It's not entirely about the current subject matter, but I do think it brings up some good points.  Either way, I wouldn't say enough's enough because (like most others) I was here long before the karma system was in place, and I will most likely continue to be here until the site dies in 2060, along with the real end of the world.   :biggrin: :wink: :cool:

April 21, 2012, 09:31:45 AM
Reply #33

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And your point concerning the link is?
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

April 21, 2012, 09:58:13 AM
Reply #34

Trowa

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That people on this site aren't out to get you.

April 21, 2012, 10:36:02 AM
Reply #35

Impervious

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My response to having my karma lowered so extremely would be the same as Trowa's. I wouldn't care much at all; but out of consideration I would try to change my behavior on this forum. It isn't very hard to post more reliable information, be friendlier, be more open-minded, etc. if you have a low karma score. I don't see the point in sticking around on a forum where nobody finds any value in your posts.

Now, none of this is to say that nothing controversial should be posted here, but things of that nature should have a logical basis and be well-thought out. An easily understood analogy for the point I am trying to make: If you like Star Trek but frequently post on a Star Wars forum, you better learn to love either Star Wars equally, or move to a Star Trek forum. It's incredibly illogical for people with really low karma to just keep posting the same stuff that got them to that karma score in the first place. The karmic score can, and should, be used as a way to gauge yourself.

(Please keep in mind that I'm using the word 'you' enerally in this post, and am not referring to anybody in specific).
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April 21, 2012, 04:12:30 PM
Reply #36

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I totally understand what you have said impervious (totally ignoring the previous post) but what about this site/community being about the metaphysical side of 'reality' or 'life'. I do not agree with everything that the poster in question says but that doesn't mean it's not true, it could be that I haven't experianced it yet, but it can also mean that I never will because it is false, but I do not know either way.

Like many things we deal with, there is never and can never be hard facts because we see different plains of existance and choose to reside on each dependant upon how the mood takes us?

Having an open mind sometimes means that we stand up and say 'I do not know' - saying this is not a weakness! Weakness is having a closed mind and denighing the possibility!
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

April 21, 2012, 07:10:09 PM
Reply #37

kobok

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Like many things we deal with, there is never and can never be hard facts because we see different plains of existance and choose to reside on each dependant upon how the mood takes us?

Having an open mind sometimes means that we stand up and say 'I do not know' - saying this is not a weakness!

...  You should also be open to the idea that there can be hard facts.  Saying "I do know" does not imply someone is being "closed".  It can simply be that they are informed.
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April 22, 2012, 12:23:16 AM
Reply #38

Akenu

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@kobok: Actually, having a window open for days just for smiting is more horrible than I had expected :-/, well, people never stop surprising me...

So, this whole thread means the Karma system shows some Veritas related data? It cannot be about hard facts as it would appear more than once (RoE has Karma system, too, data there shows a bit different thing than here) and I am not entirely sure if it is caused by "hard facts".

I sitl think what this Karma shows is fame, not quality of posts.

It is nice to think that negative Karma will influence someone to improve, there is not only this positive productive side of the coin. There is the other side of the coin, too, it can affect someone in a really negative sense.

Law of Polarity.

April 22, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
Reply #39

Impervious

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@Akenu: I don't entirely disagree with your last post, but I think it's worth noting that the River of Enlightenment forums cater to a different crowd than Veritas for the most part. I admit that I haven't looked through the threads at RoE extensively, but most of the threads I have seen are tailored toward the mystical/Magick crowd. Since the Veritas karma system is controlled, and affects, three main bodies of practitioners, it's understandable that you wouldn't get the same data between the two sites. Taking a poll about sports is going to give you different results between different athletes. ( It's a stupid analogy, but I'm a sucker for stupid analogies. :P)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 10:16:01 AM by Impervious »
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April 22, 2012, 12:18:19 PM
Reply #40

Akenu

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@Impervious: True enough, that still doesn't affect the truth, though. When something is one, absolute and objective truth, then it doesn't matter whether you are Magician, psion or martial artist.

Anyway, I see I wasted a lot of my time with this thread when the Karma system is not going to change, so could I please some post rating system as addition to current Karma system?

April 22, 2012, 02:07:47 PM
Reply #41

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@kobok: Actually, having a window open for days just for smiting is more horrible than I had expected :-/, well, people never stop surprising me...

There are people who do all sorts of strangely obsessive and socially dysfunctional things.  But, what I emphasized above is that this sort of behavior is RARE here, and makes up only a small portion of karma which is distributed.  Most karma is assigned in ways pretty close to how it's intended, as a reflection of community consensus about the value of things a person is contributing.  (Which is a combination of post content, posting style, and social behavior toward others.)

I sitl think what this Karma shows is fame, not quality of posts.

Except that "fame" hits both ways...  For example, last I checked I have the highest total karma value, but I also have the third highest number of smites.  This means a lot of people are expressing opinions about my content and behavior in both directions, as intended.

It is nice to think that negative Karma will influence someone to improve, there is not only this positive productive side of the coin. There is the other side of the coin, too, it can affect someone in a really negative sense.

Can you give an example of someone who has been negatively affected by karma in a way that is bad for the community?

@Akenu: I don't entirely disagree with your last post, but I think it's worth noting that the River of Enlightenment forums cater to a different crowd than Veritas for the most part. I admit that I haven't looked through the threads at RoE extensively, but most of the threads I have seen are tailored toward the mystical/Magick crowd. Since the Veritas karma system is controlled, and affects, three main bodies of practitioners, it's understandable that you wouldn't get the same data between the two sites. Taking a poll about sports is going to give you different results between different athletes. ( It's a stupid analogy, but I'm a sucker for stupid analogies. :P)

Well, posts tend to be voted on here mostly by people who hang out in the same crowds.  As in, readers of the magick forum tend to vote on readers of the magick forum more.  But here's a little secret for you:  The reason most of the complaints about karma have come from posters of the magick forum is NOT mostly due to people who hang out in the other sub-forums.  It's because we have cliques within the magick forum, and these cliques have been often-silently and somewhat bitterly disagreeing with each other, and many members of these cliques have not figured out how to actually discuss the objective merits of their respective arts with each other and come to an agreement.

As a result, you have a lot of members of the magick forum constantly voting other members of the magick forum down for making comments in an authoritative manner based on some authority figure not accepted by a different magick forum member.  But, honestly, the cliques doing that to each other probably deserve it, and should learn how to make more rational and objective arguments.  :-P

(Everyone who is in the magick forum frequently, and thinks there is something "wrong" with the karma system that they can't put their finger on, should do some soul-searching about how to have debates in which members of different cliques can come to an actual agreement and consensus about what's true.  The other sub-forums here have done this much better.)

so could I please some post rating system as addition to current Karma system?

To avoid a massive amount of work, any requests of that type have to be for an existing Simple Machines Forum mod.  There is for example this option, which could be considered:  http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1890
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April 22, 2012, 02:32:48 PM
Reply #42

Impervious

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@Akenu: I think that could actually be a good idea if implemented properly. It would be cool to be able to assess the poster separately, but also in conjunction with his/her posts, if necessary. I think this would be an excellent compromise, personally.

@kobok: I find that to be quite interesting. I wasn't considering the different groups within each art when I posted that. It definitely makes a lot of sense though. It's strange how people who practice essentially the same art disagree on seemingly minor points.  :D Thank you for sharing that.
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April 22, 2012, 02:59:57 PM
Reply #43

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Well, posts tend to be voted on here mostly by people who hang out in the same crowds.  As in, readers of the magick forum tend to vote on readers of the magick forum more.  But here's a little secret for you:  The reason most of the complaints about karma have come from posters of the magick forum is NOT mostly due to people who hang out in the other sub-forums.  It's because we have cliques within the magick forum, and these cliques have been often-silently and somewhat bitterly disagreeing with each other, and many members of these cliques have not figured out how to actually discuss the objective merits of their respective arts with each other and come to an agreement.

As a result, you have a lot of members of the magick forum constantly voting other members of the magick forum down for making comments in an authoritative manner based on some authority figure not accepted by a different magick forum member.  But, honestly, the cliques doing that to each other probably deserve it, and should learn how to make more rational and objective arguments.  :-P

(Everyone who is in the magick forum frequently, and thinks there is something "wrong" with the karma system that they can't put their finger on, should do some soul-searching about how to have debates in which members of different cliques can come to an actual agreement and consensus about what's true.  The other sub-forums here have done this much better.)


Interesting

Can the system therefore identify who is hitting what button? And therefore identify these ‘cliques’ as you describe them?

I’m not asking you to divulge the information but to let the groups and in light of these comments, particularly the magic group that activity can be tracked! This may in itself stop some of the stupidity.

If this is the case and you can obtain such data, you should be aware that it as been some time since I pressed either button and that ‘inline’ with your previous comment in #29 “And when karma values get near zero, positive or negative, there is a bit more reactive applauding and smiting where people try to nudge a person's karma to the value they think it should be for that person.” I tried to prevent an individual becoming too negative. If however you can only see block data and not time related then all you will see is me being part of a clique trying to upgrade another member?

Can you elaborate and let every group know please.

Addition: so you can see how the voting in/on this thread is developing?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 03:14:01 PM by Searcher »
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
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April 22, 2012, 03:06:55 PM
Reply #44

Trowa

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Akenu:  May I ask what benefits an additional, public post-rating system would have?  Karma is essentially already a sum of all the post ratings.  The only benefit that I can see at this time is that people can see what kind of behavior they might have exhibited in a specific post and reflect on it, but then you get into people down-voting posts just because they don't believe the views/religion/technique/paradigm of the user, and causing rage and upset behavior.  With the current karma system, it's anonymous for both the voter AND the post, and I do believe that has a value.  This is not reddit.  :)