Author Topic: Renaming karma  (Read 11699 times)

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April 18, 2012, 01:50:33 AM
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Akenu

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You can rename Karma to fame, it will be more accurate and less people will complain.

I really think that applauding/smiting is based solely on personal preferences than on the quality of posts.
Person that is not among favorites can have a good post but its Karma won't go up, simply because he is not a favorite. But hell, it will go down a lot while having a bad post.

Now, as an example, I didn't post much last couple of days (mostly in Cafeteria), still, my Karma went down by 2 points, Aunt Clair, who is a teacher and has a lot of articles in Magick articles section (and good articles, I have to say), has a pretty deep negative Karma because she is not among favorites.

Second solution would be to transform smite link into smile link (I guess you know why).

April 18, 2012, 04:51:00 AM
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Faijer

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Whether somebody gets applauded or smited is based in how they conduct themselves in general.

I rarely use it except when someone makes a post that I consider noteworthy, either because they have put forth a sound argument, a remark that makes me smile and nod, or a genuinely helpful and honest post. Conversely, I smite because they have put forth a completely fallacious set of arguments, acted like a fool, or behaved like an ass.

Normally, I will only do these if it is not the first instance that has caught my attention.

Thus, I think karma is completely appropriate.

But then, that's my "personal" preference.
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April 18, 2012, 05:15:33 AM
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Ekstatikos

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Now, as an example, I didn't post much last couple of days (mostly in Cafeteria), still, my Karma went down by 2 points, Aunt Clair, who is a teacher and has a lot of articles in Magick articles section (and good articles, I have to say), has a pretty deep negative Karma because she is not among favorites.

No great mystery or conspiracy here. As you know, a person can applaud/smite you for posts that you made in the past, so your karma can go up/down whether you are active or not. I suspect that Aunt Clair is unpopular because of the format of her posts, which is generally convoluted.

If you choose to call it a popularity contest then so be it, but I must agree with Faijer that it is conduct, which for me encompasses both the quality of information and presentation in posts, which is the deciding factor in determining a member's overall karma. The karma system protects the forum to some degree from trolls, consistently bad information, and empty rhetoric, whilst simultaneously rewarding those who present information which has been found to be enjoyable, helpful, and/or remarkable.
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April 18, 2012, 05:39:07 AM
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Akenu

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Question is whether this doesn't damage posts in general. I believe I have said a couple of times that anyone can have a good or bad posts, someone not having knowledge regarding given topic can easily rate the post according to the author's Karma no matter what the post will be.

Having Karma for authors causes this problem, but most importantly:
Authors themselves are split into sections according to the Karma count, which generally leads to the idea that one is better than the other, showing yet another source of argument.

Third problem of having Karma: When having argument with other member, any other message showing different opinion or just different point of view will be taken as personal attack and counter-attack will be the smite.
My Karma going down didn't happen at once and I believe at least one of these was executed by Enchia, I argumented with him in the Ten asnwers about God, thread.

Subsequently I have answered to one of Enchia's questions regarding Kilik's post and boom, Karma was down, and not because the post was bad.

One and final rant about Karma:
What does it actually say? It cannot say anything about quality of posts because posts are usually different in nature, specialization, humor, mood, etc. Most importantly it cannot say anything about posts because Karma is not related to posts, it's related to authors.

As next part, it could say something about author as the Karma system is related to the author. But what is it?
Does it say about being a good or bad poster? In which sense? Is it some scale or sum of all good or bad posts? Then it is inaccurate, no one is applauding/smiting everything.

Karma is just an anonymous way how to applaud/smite someone, not because of posts, not as a criticism, just because. Allow to see who is applauding and who is smiting you and you will see that the smiting will go down rapidly.

Currently I am talking about smiting, but opposite is also a problem. Applauding or not smiting someone just because you know him for a long time can also make the measurement inaccurate.

How about this?
If Karma should be related to posts then let's use a posting rating system rather than author rating system.
If Karma really should be related to authors, make it invisible in the posts, let Applaud/Smite buttons there, but make the label disappear, let it visible just in profiles. That way posts will be "protected".

@Pulse of Awakening: I used myself just as an example, but regarding AC: Her Karma actually went down because she argued with kobok about existence/non-existence of Chakras, after it went down every of her posts started to be a "problem", at least that's the impression I got.

I won't criticize the rest of the Karma system that was criticized a couple of times before. It IS anti-social and there is no way you can prove the opposite. It DOES affect posts and it DOES affect authors of said posts, authors ARE humans, authors ARE social creatures.

April 18, 2012, 06:21:56 AM
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Silver_Archer

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You cite Aunt Clair as an example to suggest the karma system not working as it is intended to (i.e. to gauge the average quality of a member's posts). Yet, in my opinion, Aunt Clair is an excellent example to emphasize precisely that the karma system IS working as intended.
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April 18, 2012, 06:24:54 AM
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Akenu

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@Silver Archer: You do think so, I do not think so, many people do think the same as you and some do think the same as me.

April 18, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
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Akenu

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Well, I have another suggestion about solving the problem. I have noticed that the problem was reduced went ability to applaud/smite every individual was limit to 48 hours instead of original 24 hours.

How about to reset the Karma points and let every individual to affect each member just once? I think it would show how much balancing Karma actually is.

April 18, 2012, 06:44:29 AM
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Ekstatikos

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If Karma should be related to posts then let's use a posting rating system rather than author rating system.

The fruit of a good author is good books, and s/he is judged by them. The fruit of a good member of an online forum is good posts, and s/he is judged by them.

How about to reset the Karma points and let every individual to affect each member just once? I think it would show how much balancing Karma actually is.

There's a problem with that suggestion, namely, let's say there's someone who's posts I have generally found to be useful etc. However, one day they post something derogatory or whatever the case may be. It would only be fair to allow me to then smite then, lowering their overall rating, which, due to their usually helpful posts, would still be alright. You can imagine this scenario playing out with various differing levels of useful (or whatever) versus derogatory (or whatever), and you'll find that the system is indeed geared toward balance, as much as it can be anyway.
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April 18, 2012, 06:48:17 AM
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Akenu

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@The Pulse of Awakening: Which is solved by design.
If I just smashed your Smite button, your karma will go down by one, if I tried to do it again, I would have to wait 48 hours, but if I pushed the applaud button instead, your karma would go up by 2 (resetting original smite and going up by one).

April 18, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
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Faijer

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For the most part I don't agree with much of what you're saying, but for expediency I'll highlight some of the key points.

Quote from: Akenu
any other message showing different opinion or just different point of view will be taken as personal attack and counter-attack will be the smite.
Biased assumption. I would post rather than smite, because only posting will deal with the content.

Quote from: Akenu
Subsequently I have answered to one of Enchia's questions regarding Kilik's post and boom, Karma was down, and not because the post was bad.
You have no way of proving that the smiting was as a result of that post or another. People view old threads all the time, just go and watch the activity feed for a while.

Quote from: Akenu
Then it is inaccurate, no one is applauding/smiting everything.
No, they are applauding and smiting those things they think are applause-worth and smite-worthy. That is how it is supposed to work.

Quote from: Akenu
Allow to see who is applauding and who is smiting you and you will see that the smiting will go down rapidly.
Biased assumption. I would not change my practice.

Quote from: Akenu
It IS anti-social and there is no way you can prove the opposite. It DOES affect posts and it DOES affect authors of said posts
It can make people aspire to make posts that will increase their karma rating, which inherently requires that they post. That is pro-social.

Quote from: Akenu
Her Karma actually went down because she argued with kobok about existence/non-existence of Chakras
Biased assumption. Again, you have no way of proving that the smiting was as a result of that post or another.

Quote from: Akenu
after it went down every of her posts started to be a "problem"
Biased assumption. I see no evidence to support this based on karma score fluctuations. It could have simply been that one post, or any one of her other thousand posts.

Quote from: Akenu
I have another suggestion about solving the problem
What problem?

Quote from: Akenu
How about to reset the Karma points and let every individual to affect each member just once?
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April 18, 2012, 02:46:01 PM
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Akenu

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@Talyn: Fine, let's get this over with. I cannot really expect Karma is used in the way I describe, same as you can't expect behavior you do expect, it will be something in between.
Now, to support my claims. I do work as a programmer with specialization on Testing Automation. My responsibility is to make the automation as reliable and as efficient as possible, getting maximum from hardware we have. My other responsibility is to make the software for automation as much idiot-proof as possible. Call it a professional degeneration but when I see a possibility of abuse then I expect abusive behavior, expecting the worst case possible is a sign of a good design and a satisfied customer but I guess you are not the customer in this case as I believe you do not maintain CMS system of this site.

April 18, 2012, 03:04:33 PM
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His name is Talyn again?  :wink:

But in all seriousness, I don't see what the big deal about karma is. Typically, I evaluate each post I read independent of its writer. If I find the information within the thread or post useful in any way, I will usually commend the poster with an applaud; if the post is full of bad logic, misleading information, or anything of that nature, the poster gets a smite. (Basically what Faijer said). I don't feel like I have done a good deed when I applaud someone, nor do I feel like a hardass when I smite somebody. I am simply adding my opinion, in the form of a number, to the reservoir of others' opinions. A negative karma is just a way to let someone know that they should either "shape up," or maybe find a different forum where their posts are appreciated. If they wish to keep posting, it is up to them, but a very negative karma indicates that their input is only valued by the statistical anomalies on this site, if by anyone. Of course, the opposite is true for somebody who has a very high karma score.

The only thing someone's karma score tells me is what the society as a whole thinks of them. Overall, I am personally content with the current distribution of karma points. I very highly value things like logic and kindness; and people who exhibit these traits seem to have high karma scores. But ultimately it is all meaningless; I will still read a post that intrigues me, regardless of the poster's karma score; and I will ignore one that bores me, regardless of the poster's karma score. I think the majority of RATIONAL people here do the same.

I see no problem with a number that indicates the general sentiments of Veritas members popping up next to anybody's name. Should any individual poster care about their karma score, they should take it to heart and try to change for the better. It's as simple as that

TL;DR: If you find meaning in somebody's posts, regardless of their karmic score, you should be happy! And share that person's posts with like-minded individuals. There is no need to change the way a whole forum functions.  :P
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 03:16:07 PM by Impervious »
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April 18, 2012, 03:46:42 PM
Reply #12

Faijer

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Quote from: Akenu
Now, to support my claims. I do work as a programmer with specialization on Testing Automation. My responsibility is to make the automation as reliable and as efficient as possible, getting maximum from hardware we have. My other responsibility is to make the software for automation as much idiot-proof as possible. Call it a professional degeneration but when I see a possibility of abuse then I expect abusive behavior, expecting the worst case possible is a sign of a good design and a satisfied customer but I guess you are not the customer in this case as I believe you do not maintain CMS system of this site.
All well and good, but your entire point hinges on one key issue: is it 'abuse'?

Do those people who have received lots of applauds care? I for one don't care what that number is: a metric is a quantitative measure of approval, not a qualitative description of production. What we can take from this is that the karma does not measure anything objective about you or your points, it measures approval of how you conduct yourself.

Undoubtedly there is room for abuse, such as people smiting because they simply disagree with your beliefs, or forming a smiting cartel with a dozen other members. It is their prerogative to do it to you, and you could do it back to them were you so inclined. If you are not, then your methods of judgement are simply more liberal. However, there is no evidence to hand that can tell us why people applaud or smite as the system doesn't ask for reasons in the same way that during a public event we don't ask each person to justify why they are clapping or booing a performer.

Now, conversely, do those people who have been smote into the negatives respond with aggressive resistance to the idea of karma? Do they become disillusioned and leave? Or do they wonder what they're doing wrong and try to do better to please other people? Hint: it isn't just one and not the others.

Don't confuse pleasing others with conforming for the sake of inclusion. I'm sure Tsumaru would have received a lot of smiting because of his confrontational posting style, and would probably have been capable of subsequently improving it by being more amicable. However, he wouldn't have to conform to any set of beliefs. If nothing else, the sudden shock of a humbled ass might provoke some positive response.

So, before we decide that the system is being abused, let's first decide (since we can't determine) how the system is used.
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April 18, 2012, 08:55:07 PM
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I'm just going to throw this out there.  Why do you even -care- what your karma is?  It does not actually say anything, simply because you can have your buddies applaud you every day and your karma would soar.  If you are worried about your karma becoming negative, prevent it by producing good posts, fixing whatever you can that might cause your karma to go down, accept that you may get smites no matter what, and prevent posting yet another whine thread about the karma system.  ;)

April 19, 2012, 01:45:52 AM
Reply #14

Akenu

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Do those people who have received lots of applauds care?

Nope, they don't need to care, people with negative karma usually care, reason? People ARE social creatures.

Quote
So, before we decide that the system is being abused, let's first decide (since we can't determine) how the system is used.

Which is simple, reset the counters (you can export data from the database so you will have a backup) and set it the way I described.
If you are right, history will repeat.
If I am right, history won't repeat and results will actually be fascinating.

Problem I see with Karma is the feature to vote more than once for each member, try to imagine a voting system where you can vote political party as many times as you wish, you just need to wait in the queue, again. Not everyone does have time or guts for such behavior which creates unfair conditions.

Another point: There is no need to redo the whole system as modern CMS systems are customizable, Karma system of this CMS system (SMF) is just a module that was loaded. Still I believe there is really no need to touch the code as such change already occured (from 24hr to 48hr).

Now, I did explain my points, I gave examples, and I offered solution. Solution that is fair, simple to make, and efficient.

Only problem I see with that is why I am solving this technical suggestion, apparently related to the CMS systems and therefore to system's administrators, with people that apparently are not administering this system, who apparently does NOT even know how such system works?