Author Topic: Direct & Indirect Methods for OBE exits - OBE'ing the easy way  (Read 14038 times)

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March 22, 2012, 11:22:14 PM
Reply #15

kobok

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I'm perpetually on the lookout for good OBE techniques, so I read this thread eagerly.  But things like swimming on a created beach with people, discolored houses, and seeing maniacal entities sitting on a toilet don't at all correspond to my experiences of what an OBE is like.  Those instead sound like hypnagogic hallucinations to me, which corresponds very closely with the prescribed approach for triggering the experience, as described in the first post.  Therefore I don't think this sounds like a legitimate or at all reliable technique for inducing an OBE.
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March 23, 2012, 02:30:56 AM
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<fun>Hey, even maniacal entities have to poop time by the time...</fun>

I would say this method is similar to building of an Astral Temple.

Constructing and having an Astral Temple where you spend your spare time has following aspects:
1) Good visualization training
2) Place of inner safety
3) Place of observance
4) Place of projection

I hope I don't have to explain first two, let's take a look at Place of observance.
Time by the time, part of the temple changes, it changes in coloring, in equipment, some entity visits you, something attacks you, etc.
These changes are very useful because they can represent our physical and psychical state, it's the way of sub-c how to talk with us.

Place of projection: In the temple you can create door and hallway behind the door as a route for out of body experience.
I myself never succeeded to project this way, I always got just to the vibrations which interrupted my focus on the temple.

March 24, 2012, 05:50:28 AM
Reply #17

abc

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i'm glad this thread is waking up,
i been listening to gateway cd's (monroe institute) for about 1 week now, and today i finally experienced a major breakthrough (for entire week i had no proper obe's except a sensation of floating once and once an almost separation). I'm gonna use the levels of phasing as described by monroe and frank kepple, as this helps to understand what is happening and what the next step is.

today just during the afternoon nap i had about 8 obe's (or maybe 6 i don't remember exactly)
i phased into what i understood as environment F2 (frank keeple's model, the astral layer of dreams), i remembered only 4-5 of trips, as soon as i woke up I got up and wrote them down in an email to a friend who's also going through the cds right now

Basically I was trying to trip for a while but it has been all not working really, until today when I just kept doing it over and over and over.

Tip 1: basically i think the progress can be attributed mostly to the gateway cds, but there is a wrong and a right way to do them as i realised.
The wrong way to do them is to physically move during the cd track, the right way to do them is not to move at all (not even a slightly bit, and best not to swallow either). This facilitates the body asleep/mind awake state (known as F10). If you move even slightly the body will not fall asleep. However, your body may twitch, shake etc as you approach closer to phasing out.

Tip 2: It is important not to try anything too hard during the cds as this will tense up the muscles slightly and kind of make the whole thing go the wrong way (as well as add up to frustration). I noticed this in myself if I 'tried to exit' or even had that intention during the cds then i did not reach as deep F10 level as I did when I just said to myself 'ok, i won't try anything, i simply follow instructions and whatever happens happens'. I noticed its better to fall asleep than to try to phase out or to achieve any state during the track (even if you fall asleep you'r likely to wake up seconds later). Plus read the monroe manual that comes with the cds.

Tip 3: I don't think at the beginning its possible to trip out during the cds. The best I had was falling asleep and waking up after a few seconds, and seeing scenes, hearing voices, seeing moving scenes as if you are peeking through a hole somewhere but this snaps you out very fast (immediately you snap back to C1 zone (normal physical awareness). I'm not too familiar with this but I think seeing things etc is F15 state. F15 is not an obe as such, its still more or less a shift, after F21 i think we start to get proper obe experiences.

Tip 4: I found it is best to do 2-3 tracks in a row, as by the time the second track starts I'm already quite deeply in F10, and during second track the effects seem to get more pronounced (eg: if you are doing 'lift off' track you notice different sensations during moving up or down, or i did, but i didn't during first track; similarly i did remote viewing twice in a row now and during second one very different sensations arose)

Tip 5: listen to the cds properly (i.e. not straight after food, eyes blacked out, no interruptions, etc). tHe manual explains this.

Tip 6: I found this had the main effect. During the cds I kept constnatly thinking 'when will i obe!? how is this going to help me obe in any way??? (as there is a lot of energy exercises during the cds), this kind of thinking blocks everything. There are multiple benefits to the CDs, first in each cd you spend a lot of time in F10 state (so you already get used to this state) and you work a lot with visualisation (which now i think is useful to elicit feelings/sensations which then can help you phase out), and also you work a lot with energy and sensing (if you follow the magical path this is actually pretty cool, as you create all kinds of energy forms and do things with them). Basically each CD is highly beneficial for phasing it does not matter what the cd techniques are.

Tip 7: Cycles of sleep. I think typical sleep cycle is 1.5 hours. Monroe usually slept in 2-3 cycles (3-4.5 hours) then woke up, walked around for a bit, then went back to sleep some more. He said this has an increasing effect. My sleeping now is divided into cycles as well. One cycle I leave for the afternoon naps.

Tip 8: Everyone I been talking to who phases quite well keep saying afternoon naps are the key. Today I tried afternoon nap and here we go a bunch of phasing obes occured. I now think this is also the key. I been trying to phase in teh morning for about a week, and it just doesn't work for me. For some people it does, for me it doesn't I'm too tired in hte morning I just want to sleep in the morning (but then again I go to sleep at 5-6am usually which messes things up considerably). I think the key here is to get plenty and plenty of sleep, so then when you take a nap you kind of wake up and fall asleep over and over.

Tip 9: Actual phasing techniques. If I enter F10 before sleep and can feel the body go senseless - if I try to phase out using any technique I found this does not work for me. By 'trying' to phase out I somehow make something tense in the body or mind, which stops falling asleep process. To obe the mind needs to be on the verge of sleep (according to these guys).

What does work is to simply go to sleep, then wake up and then start thinking about the technique. Today I used a technique I never even read about but somehow it just entered my mind (basically imagining that you are on a ground and with your hands crawling on it and touching the ground. The eyes are closed and of course all you can see is the usual darkness before your eyes, but after a few seconds suddenly the darkness as if dissolves and the environment appears, then you find yourself in that environment in full colour 3d and start interacting with it. Then the environment starts to fade out either gently or suddenly, for me today it was either after a couple of minutes or after even about 15 seconds on one trip, then the key is to simply repeat the techinque with the hands and again the darkness dissolves and the environment appears. I kept doing this one same thing over and over and appearing in the environment. From the different trips I think I appeared in different parts of the same environment (there was an ocean, a hill, a field, I then linked them together towards the end).

I found the key thing is to stay in the environment, by constantly having some contact with something (eg: I constanly touched stuff today and didn't want to fly for this reason as well as there would be nothing to touch when flying and so i thought i'd lose the contact fairly fast). In todays trips i either spent a lot of time ont he ground touching it and touching whatever else I could. or I remember when I stood up and walked I simply took chunks out of whatever was in my way and kind of held them in my hands as cley (mostly out of buildings). This kept the mind focused on the sensation, which kept the experience going.

--Frank Kepple said his success can be attributed to gateway cds, and specifically that he listened to 1 track (it was the introduction to focus 10 track on Wave 1 cd) a few hundred times in the first few months. He said he listened to it during the day, and even at night by putting it on repeat. He said if anyone does this then sucess will come within a couple of weeks. I didn't believe him yesterday, I do today. I listened to the tracks (in a proper way) within the last 7 days, I'd say between 4-8 times per day (so thats around 30 times). Some tracks I listened to more than once, others just once. But this is only because they were listened to in a 'proper way', I spoke to people online who listned to tracks and they experienced nothing, well this is because they kept moving while listening to them and thinking about what they were gonna have for dinner etc. The key is reaching F10 state, if you move even a slight bit that state disappears completely.

So the key really at first is the track that frank picked (introduction to focus 10) as it teaches the key of how to really deeply relax and to put the body to more or less sleep state. I listened to this track maybe 15 times or so (I never knew that my chin was always tense, until i kept listening to this track), and then once you know the routines you can go ahead and listen to others, then it becomes much easier to reach focus 10 (but remember not to move a muscle during the entire 35 minute track)

----difference between hypnagogic imagery and an actual phase-in, I don't really know to be honest-----------
The phase trip feels just like the physical world with no difference at all in terms of sensation (and I was only on F2 level, so there was no hyper-realism on that level, everything was just kind of normal, as if I was suddenly in a different country with strange things going on in it. Maybe the difference is you feel 'normal' like you would now and you feel somewhat in control, I don't know how hypnagogic stuff feels like, nor indeed what hypnagogic really is. Maybe hypnagogic is F2 but you simply have less control over it (like a dream)? I don't know to be honest.

For instance in one of my trips today, I waited for an army truck to stop at a traffic light, i opened the door and pulled out the driver (i wanted to see what it feels like to be in a closed environment such as inside a truck, and I always wanted to drive a huge truck at crazy speed), I entered into the truck, put the gear in first and started driving. For some reason the vision got half restricted (my head got stuck in the ceieiling ) and it took maybe about 10 seconds or so to correct it so the full vision returned and i could see the entire road ahead rather than just half of it. But the point is everything felt real, I even remember thinking how cold and uncomfortably hard the steering wheel feels (unlike the cushony steering wheels of modern cars) and how much the truck shakes as i drive it up the pebbled road (it was like sitting on top of a bull that is jump all over the place). I kept thinking 'this is like a computer game but for real'. Well I drove the track up the hill, and then as fast as I could down the hill, I'm surprised I didn't crash into a building, and then suddenly experience faded into darkness (maybe i did crash?), but I used the same 'hands on the pavement' thing to enter back into another experience.

Until today I only really had 1 similar phase-in, it was when I appeared on a beach and went swimming.
I must admit this progress is due to the cds, nothing else (as I been trying to obe/phase for months now (using all kinds of methods from robert bruce's to other ones, with almost no results except a few trips into RTZ)

but then we are not obe-ing into rtz here, we are going straight into astral environments, so it does not use up nearly as much energy as an rtz trip would (i've only had about 6 rtz trips in my life but i won't bother with them again as i found rtz environment very hard to maneuvre around or do anything in, why bother with RTZ when the astral is so much more fun with more stuff to do)

sorry for the long post, i don't know if that helps or not

March 24, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Reply #18

abc

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<fun>Hey, even maniacal entities have to poop time by the time...</fun>

I would say this method is similar to building of an Astral Temple.

Constructing and having an Astral Temple where you spend your spare time has following aspects:
1) Good visualization training
2) Place of inner safety
3) Place of observance
4) Place of projection

I hope I don't have to explain first two, let's take a look at Place of observance.
Time by the time, part of the temple changes, it changes in coloring, in equipment, some entity visits you, something attacks you, etc.
These changes are very useful because they can represent our physical and psychical state, it's the way of sub-c how to talk with us.

Place of projection: In the temple you can create door and hallway behind the door as a route for out of body experience.
I myself never succeeded to project this way, I always got just to the vibrations which interrupted my focus on the temple.


I read a huge amount by frank and robert in last few days and they kept saying that visualisation is not important at all to enter the phase, once you are in the phase it becomes important. In fact frank says that creative visualisation (as we are usually taught in magic routines) prevents a person from phasing, as their mind is being too active at this point which grounds them in the physical.

Frank said that the astral is at the border of your imagination - basically when you are not visualising but thinking very very abstractly, then you are actually stepping into the astral.

So to phase out you just have to bring your mind to that level of abstract thinking and then your mind fills in the gaps (provided you are in F10 state). On astral pulse forum people constantly asked frank if they were visualising properly in order to phase out, and he kept replying to them 'you are visualising too much, don't imagine a 'beach', just think 'beach', don't imagine water, just think 'water'). The more abstract the better, as then the environment starts to form and you get propelled into the astral by that.

Today to phase I imagined nothing, I simply thought I put my hands out and let them feel whatver they feel on the ground (I didn't image what ground, wht they could feel, how it would feel, I just thought 'hands + ground + keep em moving', and bam, got propelled with this technique every time. While before I would imagine all kinds of scenes and environments and nothing would happen, i'd get frustrated and a bit angry and simply go to sleep (or as is more usually happened I couldn't be able to sleep at all till 5am).

March 24, 2012, 07:09:56 AM
Reply #19

abc

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oh maybe another thing, it just popped into mind

the difference between hypnagogic imagery (as i understood it from wikipedia) and an obe,
is i experienced during obe's you are constantly thinking 'what should i do now? what shoud i do next?' and keep trying new things all the time (eg: when i swam, i swam with people, then i talked to people, then i went do the depths underneath, then looked for clusters of fish, observed the colourful corals, (tried to create a 'swimming partner' but it didn't happen) and you can hear your thoughts very clearly during obe's you know exactly what your thinking so to speak (and usually it is 'this is awesome! lets do X now, lets do Y now, lets do Z now, and so on), so its very very action orientated and you decide what the action is see if the result happens, if it doesnt happen you try again, and if it doesnt happen you let it go

same thing was today, in a single trip i kept doing more and more different stuff to experience more and more variety of effects in that environment

so basically hypnagogic state i think comes before phase-in/obe and usually it is in no way as interactive nor long as obe (in me its simply flashes of scenes, 2d or 3d, each scene different, like glimpses of a dream, but i wouldn't compare it to an obe/phase at all, it feels like you are simply looking at a scene, usually static sometimes a moving scene and they change constantly, same with voices sounds etc) with obe/phse you are actually int he environment controlling everything and there is so much more 'stability' and depth of experience,

i think hypnagogic is Focus 15, phase/obe is anything Focus 21+

March 24, 2012, 11:20:47 AM
Reply #20

Nix

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I'm perpetually on the lookout for good OBE techniques, so I read this thread eagerly.  But things like swimming on a created beach with people, discolored houses, and seeing maniacal entities sitting on a toilet don't at all correspond to my experiences of what an OBE is like.  Those instead sound like hypnagogic hallucinations to me, which corresponds very closely with the prescribed approach for triggering the experience, as described in the first post.  Therefore I don't think this sounds like a legitimate or at all reliable technique for inducing an OBE.


Wat's to say having an OBE from a lucid dream isn't just a hallucination? Or even inducing it while awake and feeling the sensations your mind playing tricks on you?

I think I might have mentioned this before, but you can even use hynagogic images to induce an OBE. I was reading a method about it in a book by Robert Peterson, "Lessons Out of the Body".

And abc is right, visualization is not important. The technique used isn't even important. What's important is acquiring the correct state of mind to project/phase. Robert Peterson makes it very clear in his books.

It's what the projector experiences. It's up to them to make their own conclusions in the end.

To each his own.
I would say this method is similar to building of an Astral Temple.

Constructing and having an Astral Temple where you spend your spare time has following aspects:
1) Good visualization training
2) Place of inner safety
3) Place of observance
4) Place of projection

I hope I don't have to explain first two, let's take a look at Place of observance.
Time by the time, part of the temple changes, it changes in coloring, in equipment, some entity visits you, something attacks you, etc.
These changes are very useful because they can represent our physical and psychical state, it's the way of sub-c how to talk with us.

Place of projection: In the temple you can create door and hallway behind the door as a route for out of body experience.
I myself never succeeded to project this way, I always got just to the vibrations which interrupted my focus on the temple.


This reminds me of the body of light metod for some reason. Where the projector creates a "body of light" in any shape,form, etc. and shifts his consciousness to it during the projection and travels using it as his/her vehicle.

so basically hypnagogic state i think comes before phase-in/obe and usually it is in no way as interactive nor long as obe (in me its simply flashes of scenes, 2d or 3d, each scene different, like glimpses of a dream, but i wouldn't compare it to an obe/phase at all, it feels like you are simply looking at a scene, usually static sometimes a moving scene and they change constantly, same with voices sounds etc) with obe/phse you are actually int he environment controlling everything and there is so much more 'stability' and depth of experience,

Abc is right, with the feelings. During the hypnagogic images, it usually seams like a scene, and it's just random images that may ave no meaning. Some say it's just neural discharges that will eventually pass after you learn to ignore them and have acquired the rate state of mind.
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March 24, 2012, 11:28:00 AM
Reply #21

abc

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nix thank you for the robert peterson reference, i haven't read that one, will get it now :)

March 24, 2012, 11:43:05 AM
Reply #22

Nix

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It's a pleasure to help. :D
I've read a lot of books on the subject (I like to read.). =P
Some books I bought, and some are pdfs.
If you get the chance, you can also ready Oliver Fox's book. He uses two methods to leave, the pineal doorway method(projecting through his 3rd eye), and lucid dreaming.
I find it funny how even then, early 1900's, he considered lucid dreams to be a form of projection. Lol.
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March 24, 2012, 12:26:16 PM
Reply #23

abc

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within last week i've watched
* inception, * jumper
just feeling incredible at how it is possible to do and experience what these guys were doing (except a few things they did of course),
watching those films after a trip you suddenly experience the film in quite a different way (imagining what it would really feel like if you did the trips they are doing, planning to copy some of their experiences, scenes, trips, events)

i made a whole checklist after jumper of scenes to visit in the physical, and also some events to copy from the inception movie (like car chases with gangsters - must be truly exhilirating!)

but i guess as people become more proficient at phasing, they don't care much for physical anymore or indeed for experiencing new sensations, and instead they start to seek knowledge outwards and inwards in the astral (monroe, kepple, moen, all went after knowledge and 'helping' after a while of tripping around just for fun)

March 24, 2012, 07:10:12 PM
Reply #24

Nix

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but i guess as people become more proficient at phasing, they don't care much for physical anymore or indeed for experiencing new sensations, and instead they start to seek knowledge outwards and inwards in the astral (monroe, kepple, moen, all went after knowledge and 'helping' after a while of tripping around just for fun)

Yes, I noticed that as well.
I guess spying on the neighbors gets boring after a while. Lol. (joke)
They usually go off to find more knowledge. I wonder, if it helps to let your higher self take over and just "go for the ride". I remember reading somewhere that Monroe would do that sometimes..
Also, those movies were very entertaining. Even Limitless was a good watch for me. =P
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March 25, 2012, 06:58:01 AM
Reply #25

abc

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i could never manage to spy on the neighbours (but then i only had 6 rtz trips) whenever i went through a wall the scene completely changed/reality fluctuated

i didn't know about limitless movie, thanks

yep i think the whole point is to get to know more of 'you', according to rob's last book, that alone is quite an experience
everything else is just a bonus :)

March 25, 2012, 12:03:49 PM
Reply #26

kobok

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the difference between hypnagogic imagery (as i understood it from wikipedia) and an obe, ...

A major difference between hypnagogic hallucinations and an OBE, is that in an OBE you are seeing things that are externally valid and externally real, while in hypnagogic hallucinations you are seeing things generated by your own mind.

There have been studies of OBE-like states induced by various drugs, and they have found that drug-induced states that produce the SENSATION of being out of body don't really have anything to do with ACTUALLY being out of body because people are not experiencing externally valid things.  They would set things out of site, and ask them to see them and report what they are.  The drug-induced experiences all resulted in imagined objects being reported.  Thus, what they were experiencing was not a true OBE.  The same standard has to be applied to separate OBEs from hypnagogic hallucinations if you are using a type of approach that is well known to produce those.
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March 25, 2012, 11:58:05 PM
Reply #27

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« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 01:43:30 AM by Searching »
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March 26, 2012, 04:33:41 AM
Reply #28

abc

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the difference between hypnagogic imagery (as i understood it from wikipedia) and an obe, ...

A major difference between hypnagogic hallucinations and an OBE, is that in an OBE you are seeing things that are externally valid and externally real, while in hypnagogic hallucinations you are seeing things generated by your own mind.

There have been studies of OBE-like states induced by various drugs, and they have found that drug-induced states that produce the SENSATION of being out of body don't really have anything to do with ACTUALLY being out of body because people are not experiencing externally valid things.  They would set things out of site, and ask them to see them and report what they are.  The drug-induced experiences all resulted in imagined objects being reported.  Thus, what they were experiencing was not a true OBE.  The same standard has to be applied to separate OBEs from hypnagogic hallucinations if you are using a type of approach that is well known to produce those.


Thank you, I understand a bit better now. Your post relates to RTZ tests as I understood.

It sounds like you are not familiar with the 'phasing' model of obe-ing (Robert Monroe, Kepple). I do not follow other models anymore, hence there might be some misconnection between what we are talking about. According to phasing model you are never truly 'out of body', it is simply a matter of the 'extent' to which you are focused in terms of your attention. By focusing attention in different ways you can reach different levels of awareness. The old model is : you are either 'out of body' or you are 'not', but this is too simplistic and kind of 'wrong' according to modern research into obes (don't know if wrong is the right word here).

The best I know about validating things in non RTZ territories (eg: 'actual' astral layers) is what the people do at Monroe Institute (eg: 'paired up investigations' = 2 people obe at the same time, meet up in a designated place in astral (eg: the 'Park in F3'), go around astral together and talk to different entities there (together), return to the physical, separately make notes on what they saw and experienced, then physically call each other and compare notes. I think this is how Monroe validates somes of their research/experiments (as proof for the astral). Bruce Moen talks about doing this with some of his friends. But this works on F3 level as I understand, or if the person is seriously experienced and they can get into another person's F2 level then maybe that works on F2 level too (I've read about this possibility, but not about people actually doing it).

On F2 level (F2 = your imagination/your mind, subjective territory (eg: the people/entities are not real, they are your projections, hence usually conversations with them don't go very far)  - on this level I dont think validation applies.

From what I understood in the old days mystics often projected into F2 thinking that it was F3. They saw angels and demons in F2, but those were not 'real', they were simply images created by the persons thoughts. But they did not understand this. Hence I wonder how many old books (eg: Castaneda, Grimories, etc) are actually valid at all, people experiencing projection into their own minds thinking that they are meeting some 'god/angel/demon' when in reality they are creating this god with their thought, rather than meeting an actual independent energy (as one would in F3).

When I talk to people/entities in F2 the conversations are typically so stupid it is not worth talking. Last trip I had into F2 I appared in a garden, I asked a gardener 'lady/wierd thing' (she looked like a mushroom) if I can have some advice on the territory where I appeared (I was thinking I was in F3). Her response was 'Buuuuu', which made me think again. I asked her again, and she replied very slowly something like ''You need to pay here to get information, and pay with Zsd coins'' - WTF? At this point I realised that I was in F2 and this lady was a waste of time as she was simply a part of my imagination (not a separate energy).

Another example of F2 territories. If you have sex in an F2 it is kind of also not quite the same thing as if you are in F3. The sexual partner in F2, however beautiful she maybe, will be kind of like a 'robot' and the fluctuations might set in as well. I was once having sex in F2 with a super model I imagined, and half way through the process her boobs disappeared, then her arms dissolved. It was not a problem I imagined her boobs back into existence and same with her arms, but it kind of ruined the moment. Plus she didn't talk at all :(

Now, I only visited F3 a cople of times, but I've been in F2 plenty now. What I noticed about F3 is the brilliance of colours (they shine incredibly bright) and generally any other sensations seem to increase (eg: I meditated in F3 once and the feelings were ecstatic, while in F2 it would have felt like a 'waste of time' in F3 it felt like ecstacy. I don't know where in F3 I was).

I really recommend getting familiar with the Phasing Model via Monroe/Keeple/Moen etc writings and systems, it is much more practically useful than the old fashioned model where you simply jump 'out of body' and appear in the RTZ not understanding what RTZ is nor where next to go, nor how to get there.

March 28, 2012, 04:35:19 AM
Reply #29

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the difference between hypnagogic imagery (as i understood it from wikipedia) and an obe, ...

A major difference between hypnagogic hallucinations and an OBE, is that in an OBE you are seeing things that are externally valid and externally real, while in hypnagogic hallucinations you are seeing things generated by your own mind.

There have been studies of OBE-like states induced by various drugs, and they have found that drug-induced states that produce the SENSATION of being out of body don't really have anything to do with ACTUALLY being out of body because people are not experiencing externally valid things.  They would set things out of site, and ask them to see them and report what they are.  The drug-induced experiences all resulted in imagined objects being reported.  Thus, what they were experiencing was not a true OBE.  The same standard has to be applied to separate OBEs from hypnagogic hallucinations if you are using a type of approach that is well known to produce those.


Thank you, I understand a bit better now. Your post relates to RTZ tests as I understood.

It sounds like you are not familiar with the 'phasing' model of obe-ing (Robert Monroe, Kepple). I do not follow other models anymore, hence there might be some misconnection between what we are talking about. According to phasing model you are never truly 'out of body', it is simply a matter of the 'extent' to which you are focused in terms of your attention. By focusing attention in different ways you can reach different levels of awareness. The old model is : you are either 'out of body' or you are 'not', but this is too simplistic and kind of 'wrong' according to modern research into obes (don't know if wrong is the right word here).

The best I know about validating things in non RTZ territories (eg: 'actual' astral layers) is what the people do at Monroe Institute (eg: 'paired up investigations' = 2 people obe at the same time, meet up in a designated place in astral (eg: the 'Park in F3'), go around astral together and talk to different entities there (together), return to the physical, separately make notes on what they saw and experienced, then physically call each other and compare notes. I think this is how Monroe validates somes of their research/experiments (as proof for the astral). Bruce Moen talks about doing this with some of his friends. But this works on F3 level as I understand, or if the person is seriously experienced and they can get into another person's F2 level then maybe that works on F2 level too (I've read about this possibility, but not about people actually doing it).

On F2 level (F2 = your imagination/your mind, subjective territory (eg: the people/entities are not real, they are your projections, hence usually conversations with them don't go very far)  - on this level I dont think validation applies.

From what I understood in the old days mystics often projected into F2 thinking that it was F3. They saw angels and demons in F2, but those were not 'real', they were simply images created by the persons thoughts. But they did not understand this. Hence I wonder how many old books (eg: Castaneda, Grimories, etc) are actually valid at all, people experiencing projection into their own minds thinking that they are meeting some 'god/angel/demon' when in reality they are creating this god with their thought, rather than meeting an actual independent energy (as one would in F3).

When I talk to people/entities in F2 the conversations are typically so stupid it is not worth talking. Last trip I had into F2 I appared in a garden, I asked a gardener 'lady/wierd thing' (she looked like a mushroom) if I can have some advice on the territory where I appeared (I was thinking I was in F3). Her response was 'Buuuuu', which made me think again. I asked her again, and she replied very slowly something like ''You need to pay here to get information, and pay with Zsd coins'' - WTF? At this point I realised that I was in F2 and this lady was a waste of time as she was simply a part of my imagination (not a separate energy).

Another example of F2 territories. If you have sex in an F2 it is kind of also not quite the same thing as if you are in F3. The sexual partner in F2, however beautiful she maybe, will be kind of like a 'robot' and the fluctuations might set in as well. I was once having sex in F2 with a super model I imagined, and half way through the process her boobs disappeared, then her arms dissolved. It was not a problem I imagined her boobs back into existence and same with her arms, but it kind of ruined the moment. Plus she didn't talk at all :(

Now, I only visited F3 a cople of times, but I've been in F2 plenty now. What I noticed about F3 is the brilliance of colours (they shine incredibly bright) and generally any other sensations seem to increase (eg: I meditated in F3 once and the feelings were ecstatic, while in F2 it would have felt like a 'waste of time' in F3 it felt like ecstacy. I don't know where in F3 I was).

I really recommend getting familiar with the Phasing Model via Monroe/Keeple/Moen etc writings and systems, it is much more practically useful than the old fashioned model where you simply jump 'out of body' and appear in the RTZ not understanding what RTZ is nor where next to go, nor how to get there.

Is there a place where the exact methodology is explained?

Like, if one phases, and knows that one is in F2, how would one then go from that to shifting into phase 3?

Or if one wanted to obtain information about the physical world to be verified later by exploring the physical, how would one go from an F2 experience to explore the F1 terrain from a point of focus other than the physical body that one normally goes about doing things?
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End