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Author Topic: The Talent Code and the myelin sheath  (Read 4624 times)
MariusAnil
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« on: November 11, 2011, 04:17:16 PM »

I posted this on another site under the name joe skar but wasn't getting much response so i'll try it on this site.


   I've been interested in this sort of stuff(the esoteric) on and off since I was 13(now 18). Recently I have read a book called "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle(i downloaded it via pdf i don't remember the link but its easy to find). It was very interesting because it details the biological/biochemical factors attributed to developing talent. Apparently based on the studies and dots connected with in the book(which is backed by recent scientific studies and ones 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 years ago) "talent" as we understand it is actually how thick the myelin sheath around a certain sequence of neurons(axons)is. The process is called myelination. Basically the more you fire a certain sequence of neurons/axons the more this fatty insulation-like layer called myelin wraps around that sequence. The more myelin that is wrapped around that sequence the faster it fires. simple right? Basically the more you practice the better you get right? Wrong apparently from what I've read in the book its not just the quantity of practice its the quality. the book calls it "deep practice". Basically you can't practice with whats already easy for you. you have to basically jump off the deep end and venture into the unknown and push the limits. also while you are in deep space 9 you have to religiously and strictly pay attention to your mistakes. When you make a mistake don't simply pass over it stop and work through it this way when you finally get the hang of it you can pratice it right and build the all important myelin.

   I didn't intend write this as a instructional. I just wanted to explain the gist of the book before I state my hypothesis and ask my question. Please read the book it goes into much much greater detail and gives evidence to back it up. You can download the pdf on the web somewhere.(or I can send it to you via email just message me)

    Ok here is my hypothesis. Energy work and chakra development aside what if myelination was a part of how we develop psychic abilities. because I remember when I first started psychokinesis it was very frustrating but eventually I got 80% success rate with what ever small object I was trying to move(bottle cap, psi wheel, straw, pendulum). Was I just randomly firing different circuits until i found the right one achieved success then after that I just kept building myelin? Sadly I never advanced past very small objects but I attribute that to not jumping off the deep end making mistakes and fixing them(it is my belief that myelin plays a major part in development of any kind).

   What is y'alls take on this? Do you think this theory is correct concerning psychic development?

   Your thoughts theories and even criticism will be appreciated thank you.
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Watchtower
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 08:16:58 PM »

Sounds extremely dubious to me.  Myelin is a lipid sheath that allows saltatory propagation of action potentials along axons, so the depolarization of the membrane along the axon skips entire sections, and thus moves faster.  It's conceivable that increasing the distance between the nodes up to a certain point would speed up action potential conduction, but that is such a simplistic proposition that its hard to judge its merits without more information, not to mention that axons are naturally either myelinated or non-myelinated and I find it hard to believe you could make an alteration to an existing myelinated neuron that would make a very drastic difference.  Furthermore, there is so much more involved in learning tasks and becoming competent that I find it extremely hard to believe that you could attribute very much of the process, if any, to "thickening myelin."  Impulse speed really has little or nothing to do with it.  As far as psychic stuff, I don't know, I don't see how a sheath of fat is giving you psychic powers.  

Regarding the other stuff about challenging yourself, that's pretty well documented and supported.  Once you become "good enough" at something, you stop improving because your brain starts performing the task on "automatic" and thus there is no longer any impetus for improvement.  When you push yourself to meet a challenge, you are constantly noticing your mistakes or your shortcomings and evaluating your performance based on feedback, and reinforcing new or better ways of accomplishing the task, again based on feedback.  You create new memories of motor neuron firing patterns that your brain can then activate faster and with less conscious involvement.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 08:31:30 PM by Watchtower » Logged

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MariusAnil
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 09:40:10 PM »

your second paragraph is almost exactly how the book described what a thicker myelin sheath eventually does. how could it not have something to do with Psychic ability or "talent"? it isn't just the spiritual or soul or chi/ki/psi energy that does all the work(this is why i said energy work aside). some kind of cognitive process has to set it in motion. does meditation or focus training get easier because energy is more available? maybe but i think it has to be at least a combination of the physical and non-physical. advanced meditation practitioners can achieve their desired brain state much quicker then novices and this supported by many scientific studies(some can get down to almost zero brain activity). judging by your advanced vocabulary you would probably understand the book better then me. i could send it if you want. at least skim it.

Joke: i vow to never say "stuff" again! from now on its subject matter! hehe 
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 08:16:35 AM »

Quote
your second paragraph is almost exactly how the book described what a thicker myelin sheath eventually does.

Yea, I don't know about that.  Sounds like BS to me.  Myelin is extremely important to nervous system function, but I don't see any reason to single it out, as there are many factors that are important to neuron function.  I have never heard of the learning process having anything to do with "thickening myelin."  Go ahead and send me the book, I'll skim it when I have time. 
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MariusAnil
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 05:45:09 PM »

Its been sent.
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 01:38:26 AM »

What is y'alls take on this? Do you think this theory is correct concerning psychic development?
Myelin sheats are most prevalent in the neurons of the nervous system that control the muscles (since the axons are much longer here). Unless psychic development is primarily about developing these neurons, I wouldn't consider it of much importance.
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MariusAnil
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 06:52:39 AM »

Its not about developing the neurons or axons. here is an excerpt from this site  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK27954/

   "Conduction velocity in myelinated fibers is proportional to the diameter, while in unmyelinated fibers it is proportional to the square root of the diameter. Thus, differences in energy and space requirements between the two types of fiber are exaggerated at higher conduction velocities. If nerves were not myelinated and equivalent conduction velocities were maintained, the human spinal cord would need to be as large as a good-sized tree trunk. Myelin, then, facilitates conduction while conserving space and energy [3]."

It isn't just in motor control.


   "In the CNS, the structures of myelin are formed by the oligodendroglial cell [7]. This has many similarities but also points of difference with respect to myelination in the PNS. CNS nerve fibers are not separated by connective tissue, nor are they surrounded by cell cytoplasm, and specific glial nuclei are not obviously associated with particular myelinated fibers. CNS myelin is a spiral structure similar to PNS myelin; it has an inner mesaxon and an outer mesaxon that ends in a loop, or tongue, of glial cytoplasm (Fig. 4-3). Unlike the peripheral nerve, where the sheath is surrounded by Schwann cell cytoplasm, the cytoplasmic tongue in the CNS is restricted to a small portion of the sheath. This glial tongue is continuous with the plasma membrane of the oligodendroglial cell through slender processes. One glial cell can myelinate 40 or more separate axons [8]."

The myelin doesn't just thicken in wraps layers

   "Before myelination, the axon lies in an invagination of the Schwann cell (Fig. 4-10A). The plasmalemma of the cell then surrounds the axon and joins to form a double-membrane structure that communicates with the cell surface. This structure, called the mesaxon, elongates around the axon in a spiral fashion (Fig. 4-10). Thus, formation of myelin topologically resembles rolling up a sleeping bag; the mesaxon winds about the axon, and the cytoplasmic surfaces condense into a compact myelin sheath and form the major dense line. The two external surfaces form the myelin intraperiod line."

Here is a little slide show by the guy who wrote the talent code.

http://thetalentcode.com/myelin/

Honestly myelin help neuron and axon circuits fire faster and more precisely. How could this not have anything to do with psychic talent?
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 08:54:14 AM »

Quote
Honestly myelin help neuron and axon circuits fire faster and more precisely. How could this not have anything to do with psychic talent?

Psi-action occurs in such a way as to lead us to believe that it is non-physical, and therefore placing responsibility for that action in a physical process seems weird?
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MariusAnil
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 11:10:54 AM »

maybe i explained my hypothesis wrong. I didn't say myelin takes sole responsibility. just that it has something to do with it that is why i said energy work aside. What are we taught in the beginning for psychokinesis or even energy work? some form of visualization be it tactile, visual, or audio. these are all cognitive actions. Self-hypnosis, meditation, focal training what are they? cognitive actions. there is yin and yang, physical and non-physical, two sides of the same coin. you can't have one with out the other? what i'm saying is that myelin plays a part on the physical side of it. if we can practice the physical side of it more efficiently wouldn't the other side follow as a result? perhaps they are more synergistic in development. in which case growth would be more exponential.

the brain is a quantum engine and we really don't completely know what constitutes the "non-physical" yet. so i was thinking of making a crack at the efficiency of the physical side before i delved into the non-physical side.
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2011, 12:07:02 PM »

The brain is a quantum engine? What does that even mean?

That aside, though, I agree with Wren. This does not mean physical factors are of no importance, as your physical health can greatly affect your mental health (and thus your ability to do psi). However, there is no reason to give myelin a special place in all this.
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2011, 01:20:48 PM »

What are we taught in the beginning for psychokinesis or even energy work? some form of visualization be it tactile, visual, or audio. these are all cognitive actions. Self-hypnosis, meditation, focal training what are they? cognitive actions.


Visualization is fairly new to the party as far as magic goes. The spirit model has been around for much longer than the energy or energy-spirit models of magic. Self-hypnosis, meditation, and focal training are cognitive acts, but are of a special kind. They bring the mind into a limnal state in which the mind becomes susceptible to the soul. Getting the daimon on speaking terms with the mind is the first goal of old-school magic.

But yes, the physical is still important. I haven't the slightest idea as to why that should be, though.
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MariusAnil
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2011, 06:37:25 PM »

I just realized i was a little too forward on this topic sorry. Though i've been reading around on this site some more and i now understand everyones reasoning Bashing your head against a wall. wren's last post was part of what i was trying to convey though i was focused on the physical side of it.
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2011, 08:25:07 PM »

This all assumes that psychic potential has a neurological basis. Even given neural correlates for psi activity, the issue of causality comes into play: is the brain the source of psi effects or does it react to the performance of psi effect with a phenomenal state that is measurable by our equipment?

First, we'd need to determine whether the myelin hypothesis is correct.

If it is, then if you collected a sample group of psi-"talented" individuals (chosen by speed of success rate increase over time) and screened them for other talents via a background check, you might be able to pinpoint a psychic neurological domain with with statistical significance via brain imaging if either (a) the "psi muscle" is neurologically based or (b) if psychic sensitivity is domain specific somewhere within the brain.

If that correlated domain were found, it would strengthen the argument for the existence of psi. If it were not, it would feed the skeptical argument for those who don't believe in the validity of psi, and for those who accept the existence of psi effects it would support the idea that something non-material (or as-yet undetectable by material science) accounts for psi effects.

Unfortunately, I doubt my college would be psyched to let me use their equipment for this purpose.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 08:28:08 PM by Animus » Logged

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MariusAnil
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2011, 09:18:14 PM »

yep you probably need a couple million dollars and a experiment that can duplicated by individual scientist easily before psi can be validated. but then again physicists would fight this fiercely because everything they know would have to be rewritten. Quantum physicists not so much because they are pretty close to what we're trying to validate(though they might be unaware). 
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 12:19:49 AM »

yep you probably need a couple million dollars and a experiment that can duplicated by individual scientist easily before psi can be validated. but then again physicists would fight this fiercely because everything they know would have to be rewritten. Quantum physicists not so much because they are pretty close to what we're trying to validate(though they might be unaware). 

Two thirds of the Veritas council are physicists. The other one and most of the staff have heavy exposure to science. I don't believe we are as dogmatic as you believe, in fact the ideal scientist is NOT the skeptic, but one who is open to new ideas while not taking everything at face value.
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