Author Topic: Absorbing energy from the sun  (Read 17653 times)

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May 18, 2011, 01:38:28 PM
Reply #15

XIII

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What -exactly- can you get from the sun that you can't get from your own body? There is literally no limit to what you can gather without getting it from 'sources', so why use the middle-man? Gather your energy from the air around you, your own body, or just Will it into existence.
<@kobok> And if you push hard enough, you can shove quite a lot into a chicken.

<@Trowa> When someone told him to jump off a cliff, he argued the semantic meanings of "jump" and "cliff", and then proceeded to do just that.

May 19, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
Reply #16

donjitsu2

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What -exactly- can you get from the sun that you can't get from your own body?

Vitamin D...oversimplified I know, but the truth is you either need to get a lot of sunlight (though if you live above the 37 degree latitude line you'll need to supplement). I've seen estimates that as much as 80% of Western society is deficient in Vitamin D. A lot of that deficiency is linked to how little time many us spend outdoors.



I don't think I need to point out how important Vitamin D is but I will anyway:

A Few Things You Probably Didn't know About Vitamin D

The turth is: we are born into, live, and die in a sea of electromagnetic energy. The Sun is one of the major sources of that electromagnetic energy. The energy of the Sun literally influences every cell in our body.

I wouldn't down-play its role in our life so much, but that's just me.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 05:49:18 AM by donjitsu2 »

May 20, 2011, 04:15:54 PM
Reply #17

XIII

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I wasn't talking about physical energy, come on. :P I'm not saying you shouldn't get a healthy dose of sunlight, I'm saying that your body can generate the required energy easier than getting it from an outside source. Vitamins is good.
<@kobok> And if you push hard enough, you can shove quite a lot into a chicken.

<@Trowa> When someone told him to jump off a cliff, he argued the semantic meanings of "jump" and "cliff", and then proceeded to do just that.

May 20, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
Reply #18

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I wasn't talking about physical energy, come on. :P I'm not saying you shouldn't get a healthy dose of sunlight, I'm saying that your body can generate the required energy easier than getting it from an outside source. Vitamins is good.

As far as non-physical energy goes, you don't have to think very hard or for very long to come up with reasons for why you would want to tap into an external source to get energy.

Taking the sun as an example, think of all of the cultures, all of the thousands of people, throughout history, who have worshiped the sun? The deities attributed to it? The sheer amount of raw psychic energy that has been hurled towards "the sun", even as a physical symbol of a life giver- not to mention the psychological and psychic symbolism it has come to hold throughout the years.

I can't think of many humans who would be capable of generating that much energy on their own.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

May 20, 2011, 08:54:43 PM
Reply #19

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I wasn't talking about physical energy, come on. :P I'm not saying you shouldn't get a healthy dose of sunlight, I'm saying that your body can generate the required energy easier than getting it from an outside source. Vitamins is good.
Can the body generate it's own psychic energy without need of external sources? I'm not so keen on this idea, since it's not seen on the physical side of things either; we need to take in food and drink in order to attain our physical energy and I haven't seen a good reason to assume that the body can generate it's own source without the need of external sources either. I fully understand that the non-physical aspects of our existence are not identical in nature to our physical body, but "as above, so below" and the lack of personal evidence in my own life leads me to believe that we do draw in (at least some of) our non-physical energy from external sources, even if partially subconsciously.

Forgive me if my snippet in the quote ended too soon, and that you were not suggesting that humans can completely generate their own psychic energy, completely devoid of the need of external sources.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

May 21, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
Reply #20

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Forgive me if my snippet in the quote ended too soon, and that you were not suggesting that humans can completely generate their own psychic energy, completely devoid of the need of external sources.
While I'm not XIII, I do think this is what he was suggesting, yes. I believe I have seen other practitioners of dynamic psi put forward a very similar idea, and thus I would not be surprised if generating metaphysical energy as opposed to gathering it is a very common thing. (EDIT: Ah, found something similar in kobok's FAQ, section 2.4) Regardless, you say you are not so keen on the idea of people being able to generate their own energy without needing outside sources, and then name a few physical analogies and state the hermetic law "as above, so below". Next, you put forward that the lack of personal evidence in your own life leads you to believe that we draw metaphysical energy from the outside. This, however, is incorrect reasoning, and is why it seems like a good idea to keep Occam's razor around. People need not give evidence that we do not need to draw metaphysical energy from outside sources, rather, we need a reason to believe these metaphysical energy sources are necessary. If no such reason can be found (as I believe to be the case), the only reason it is such a popular idea is - I think - because people think of physical analogies, and because the physical body needs food, drink and air, the soul surely needs something similar! Which seems like a good example of non sequitur to me, or a false analogy, if you will. It would be similar to saying that since physical energy cannot travel through time, so must metaphysical energy. Newsflash: metaphysical energy is not physical energy, nor does it necessarily have similar attributes. In fact, the only good reason for calling this metaphysical 'substance' energy, is because energy is what causes change, and metaphysical energy, too, can cause change. Also, the fact that you're not keen on an idea is hardly a valid argument. ;)

This does not mean that we do not draw metaphysical energy from outside sources. In all honesty, I consider it likely that people do draw energy from and affect the energy around them, simply by thinking about it, and, in a way, projecting mental images upon said energy. This does not mean, however, that using energy from the outside is a requirement for the soul to function properly.

Of course, this is merely my opinion. XIII (and everyone else, of course), if I have said anything that does not make sense, or have suggested you meant something that you didn't, feel free to correct me.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 08:52:41 AM by Robin »

May 21, 2011, 10:07:32 AM
Reply #21

Searching

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we need a reason to believe these metaphysical energy sources are necessary. If no such reason can be found (as I believe to be the case)

*ahem* I would like to direct you to my post, and see what you think about my own position:

I wasn't talking about physical energy, come on. :P I'm not saying you shouldn't get a healthy dose of sunlight, I'm saying that your body can generate the required energy easier than getting it from an outside source. Vitamins is good.

As far as non-physical energy goes, you don't have to think very hard or for very long to come up with reasons for why you would want to tap into an external source to get energy.

Taking the sun as an example, think of all of the cultures, all of the thousands of people, throughout history, who have worshiped the sun? The deities attributed to it? The sheer amount of raw psychic energy that has been hurled towards "the sun", even as a physical symbol of a life giver- not to mention the psychological and psychic symbolism it has come to hold throughout the years.

I can't think of many humans who would be capable of generating that much energy on their own.

At this point I think I should clarify that I am NOT saying that we only, or must only gather energy from outside sources. I think we can and do generate our own energy, and I think we can develop our energy to dizzying heights. But I think that, in most cases, power from outside sources (namely the sun) dwarfs our own. In many cases, I think it would be far more efficient (in terms of energy spent on the process, time spent, and in the amount of energy returned to you) to gather it from these outside sources.

The amount of non-physical energy (call it psychic energy, subconscious energy, ideological energy, whatever) that something like the sun has gathered through the MILLENIA is far greater than what most people can gather on their own in their own lifetime (and that's assuming they do nothing but gather energy!)

Compare the number of people who know of and send their energy (subconsciously or otherwise) to even somebody like Brad Pitt, or Barack Obama, compared to the sun. Even on that scale, even in just one lifetime, the sun is the object of FAR more attention, and the recipient of FAR more psychic energy. And that's just from PEOPLE. Think of plants and animals. Then think of all of the past generations. Then think of all of the religions surrounding the sun. The ideologies. The romanticism. All of that. And you've got a bunch of energy.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:11:30 AM by Searching »
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May 21, 2011, 10:14:24 AM
Reply #22

donjitsu2

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I wasn't talking about physical energy, come on. :P I'm not saying you shouldn't get a healthy dose of sunlight, I'm saying that your body can generate the required energy easier than getting it from an outside source. Vitamins is good.

Your body cannot generate it's own energy without external sources - human beings are not a "closed system".

We exist as part of a larger whole. This connection to something larger than ourselves is what allows us to survive - without it we would cease to exist.

I'm not talking in terms of "physical" or "spiritual" because I see no difference in between the two. In my mind the physical and spiritual are one and the same.

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May 21, 2011, 10:37:12 AM
Reply #23

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Quote from: Searching
Quote from: Robin
we need a reason to believe these metaphysical energy sources are necessary. If no such reason can be found (as I believe to be the case)

*ahem* I would like to direct you to my post, and see what you think about my own position:
Certainly.

Quote from: Searching
At this point I think I should clarify that I am NOT saying that we only, or must only gather energy from outside sources. I think we can and do generate our own energy, and I think we can develop our energy to dizzying heights. But I think that, in most cases, power from outside sources (namely the sun) dwarfs our own. In many cases, I think it would be far more efficient (in terms of energy spent on the process, time spent, and in the amount of energy returned to you) to gather it from these outside sources.
I doubt this. In this case, you are still gathering energy, and regardless of the amount of energy attached to the sun on the conceptual domain, this does not make it easier to gather energy from the sun than it would be to generate energy. To use an example, let's say psi energy could be measured in MEU (Metaphysical Energy Units) - I know this is weird, but follow along with the example and then you can laugh all you like. Because of rigorous training, an advanced psion might be able to gather or generate 10 MEU/second, as opposed to a beginner who can only gather or generate 1 MEU/second. If the sun contained billions of MEU, and some sigil I created contains only a few, this does not make it a smart thing to draw energy from the sun, as I can generate energy myself without relying on an external reservoir of energy. The MEUs per second I would be drawing would be the same in all cases, but when using a metaphysical energy source I am limiting myself to a specific reservoir of energy (huge though it may be), whereas generating my own energy has no such limits.

Quote from: Searching
The amount of non-physical energy (call it psychic energy, subconscious energy, ideological energy, whatever) that something like the sun has gathered through the MILLENIA is far greater than what most people can gather on their own in their own lifetime (and that's assuming they do nothing but gather energy!)
Certainly. But when you are gathering energy from said sun, you are being horribly inefficient. Gathering from a metaphysical source of tremendous power isn't in any way more effective than gathering from a smaller metaphysical source or generating your own energy (not counting the benefits to one's state of mind the symbolism of the sun might get you in).

Quote from: Searching
Compare the number of people who know of and send their energy (subconsciously or otherwise) to even somebody like Brad Pitt, or Barack Obama, compared to the sun. Even on that scale, even in just one lifetime, the sun is the object of FAR more attention, and the recipient of FAR more psychic energy. And that's just from PEOPLE. Think of plants and animals. Then think of all of the past generations. Then think of all of the religions surrounding the sun. The ideologies. The romanticism. All of that. And you've got a bunch of energy.
Doesn't have to be. You've got a bunch of concepts in the conceptual domain connected to the sun, which do not make it an effective power source, per se.

Since the amount of psi energy you can use effectively depends upon your ability as a psion, using a different power source does not have a significant effect on your abilities. Some people might find it easier to gather energy as opposed to generate it because it's easier for them to conceptualize, but that does not make using metaphysical power sources an effective method, per se. Now I do not mean to say that the symbolism of the sun cannot be used in psi, because, as you pointed out, so many people having attached concepts to the sun has a definite effect. Thus, the sun could be used as some sort of construct in the same way magicians us symbolism in their rituals. However, it should be noted that because so many people have attached so many different concepts to the sun, this is not an easy way to use energy for your own ends. In fact, I consider well-designed constructs to be much more useful than something many people have thought about such as the sun, because many people thinking about an object doesn't always have to be positive. The ideas surrounding the sun in the conceptual domain are probably very diluted because of all these people, so to speak.

In conclusion, symbolism aside, I see no reason why using the sun would be more effective than gathering your own energy.

Quote from: donjitsu2
Your body cannot generate it's own energy without external sources - human beings are not a "closed system".
The physical body, yes. But I have not found any reason to believe the soul needs a specific form of metaphysical nutrition.

Quote from: donjitsu2
We exist as part of a larger whole. This connection to something larger than ourselves is what allows us to survive - without it we would cease to exist.
Again, this applies to the physical body. When it comes to the soul, this is no more than speculation.

Quote from: donjitsu2
I'm not talking in terms of "physical" or "spiritual" because I see no difference in between the two. In my mind the physical and spiritual are one and the same.
Then you are ignoring the evidence. Physical (as in 'material', not as in 'natural') bodies are dependent on space and time, the soul is not. Therefore, there is a difference between the two.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:51:55 AM by Robin »

May 21, 2011, 10:52:22 AM
Reply #24

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Since the amount of psi energy you can use effectively depends upon your ability as a psion, using a different power source does not have a significant effect on your abilities. Some people might find it easier to gather energy as opposed to generate it because it's easier for them to conceptualize, but that does not make using metaphysical power sources an effective method, per se. Now I do not mean to say that the symbolism of the sun cannot be used in psi, because, as you pointed out, so many people having attached concepts to the sun has a definite effect. Thus, the sun could be used as some sort of construct in the same way magicians us symbolism in their rituals. However, it should be noted that because so many people have attached so many different concepts to the sun, this is not an easy way to use energy for your own ends. In fact, I consider well-designed constructs to be much more useful than something many people have thought about such as the sun, because many people thinking about an object doesn't always have to be positive. The ideas surrounding the sun in the conceptual domain are probably very diluted because of all these people, so to speak.

I think somewhere in here is the crux of the issue, and in this paragraph you seem to have said it both ways  :wink: that it is both effective because of its powerful symbolism, but also ineffective for the same reason.

Even in a developed psion, it may be far easier to, using your example, pull 100 MEU (metaphysical energy units) from the sun in one second than it would be to gather 10 MEU per second for ten seconds.

And if you pull a page from Initiation Into Hermetics, there may be ways to use energy without it even going though your body. As XIII put it, "cut out the middleman". In which case, draw energy from what's already there, rather than make some energy up.

Quote
In conclusion, symbolism aside, I see no reason why using the sun would be more effective than gathering your own energy.

Well aside from oxygenating the blood, I see no reason to breathe!  :P
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May 21, 2011, 10:59:45 AM
Reply #25

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Quote from: Searching
I think somewhere in here is the crux of the issue, and in this paragraph you seem to have said it both ways  :wink: that it is both effective because of its powerful symbolism, but also ineffective for the same reason.
I agree. However, since we were discussing using the sun as a metaphysical source of energy, there's something more to it than that.

Quote from: Searching
Even in a developed psion, it may be far easier to, using your example, pull 100 MEU (metaphysical energy units) from the sun in one second than it would be to gather 10 MEU per second for ten seconds.
But why would it be? There is no reason to think gathering energy from a specific object would be more efficient than generating your own energy. In both cases, the only component that actually affects how much energy you are able to use (gathering and generating are both forms of using energy) is your soul.

Quote from: Searching
And if you pull a page from Initiation Into Hermetics, there may be ways to use energy without it even going though your body. As XIII put it, "cut out the middleman". In which case, draw energy from what's already there, rather than make some energy up.
Generating energy with the soul does not mean you are letting it go through your body. Metaphysical energy does not even need physical coordinates, so there is no reason a good psion should let the energy pass through his body at first.

Quote from: Searching
Well aside from oxygenating the blood, I see no reason to breathe!  :P
Which is a very valid point. Because we know, if we don't breath, there will be less oxygen in the blood, and you will eventually pass out or even die. This would be a good analogy, if only we had some reason to think that the soul needs metaphysical energy from outside sources for similar reasons. ;)

May 21, 2011, 11:24:05 AM
Reply #26

Searching

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Quote from: Searching
Even in a developed psion, it may be far easier to, using your example, pull 100 MEU (metaphysical energy units) from the sun in one second than it would be to gather 10 MEU per second for ten seconds.
But why would it be? There is no reason to think gathering energy from a specific object would be more efficient than generating your own energy. In both cases, the only component that actually affects how much energy you are able to use (gathering and generating are both forms of using energy) is your soul.

Well in one case the energy is already there, and in another case, the energy is not, and then it is there.

Assuming I could materialize a cup, it would be the difference between me using a cup that is already sitting before me, verses me materializing a cup and then using that one. On the one hand I would actually have to reach out and grab the cup that's already there, and on the other, I'd have to materialize one. In that case, which is more efficient?

But in the end, all else being equal, it may be a form of style and thus would vary from individual to individual. Some may feel more inclined to use a cup already there. Others may want to generate their own. At the highest levels, differences in efficiency would be negligible.

But as far as my understanding goes, this conversation isn't about calculating efficiency to minute degrees- it's about whether one option has any sort of merit to begin with. And I think between me, you, and Donjitsu, a couple of good reasons have been put forward for the reasons why you would choose to use the energy from the sun (and other external sources).

Quote
Quote from: Searching
Well aside from oxygenating the blood, I see no reason to breathe!  :P
Which is a very valid point. Because we know, if we don't breath, there will be less oxygen in the blood, and you will eventually pass out or even die. This would be a good analogy, if only we had some reason to think that the soul needs metaphysical energy from outside sources for similar reasons. ;)

My point in saying that wasn't to say we need external sources. My point was a commentary on what you did, which was pushing aside a significant reason that one option is viable, and then declaring that one option to be no longer viable, and how when you apply that same logic to other situations, it is rather silly.

The sun has a lot of psychic energy at the ready, in part because of years of symbolism that has contributed to millions of people focusing on it on a DAILY basis. Sure, if you disregard the symbolism, you disregard any real reason anybody has to use the sun. Just as if you disregard the fact that breathing supplies us oxygen, you've run out of reasons why someone should even breathe!

That doesn't mean that breathing is obsolete, and it doesn't mean that gathering energy from the sun is obsolete either.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:42:55 AM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

May 21, 2011, 08:13:31 PM
Reply #27

Grey

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First this type of energy must exist. Second we must be capable of interacting with it. I will assume both are true for my post.

Let us look at a range of possibilities, and examine them in order to determine which is most likely.


I: The sun contains no energy. (For whatever reason. Perhaps a soul is required to contain energy. It does not matter for this example)

II: The sun contains energy but it is not possible to draw on this energy. (Functionally the same as I.)

III. The sun contains a small amount of energy (relative to the human body), and it is possible to draw upon it at a slow speed.

IV. The sun contains a moderate amount of energy (relative to the human body), and it is possible to draw a moderate amount of energy at a moderate speed.

V. The sun contains a huge amount of energy (relative to the human body), and it is possible to draw a huge amount of energy great speed.


Next let us compare it to the energy of the human body.


I. The human body contains no energy.

II. The human body contains energy, but cannot generate its own.

III. The human body contains a small amount of energy, and generates it at a slow speed.

IV. The human body contains a moderate amount of energy, and generates it at a moderate speed.

V. The human body contains a large amount of energy, and generates it at a rapid speed.


(Clearly there is a large range of other possibilities that I have not listed, as I do not see them as critical to the example.)

So to determine if there is any worth to drawing energy from the sun it is necessary to discover where the sun falls on the list of possibilities, and then where the human body falls. This leads me to my point. To determine if there is any worth to drawing energy from the sun, we must have a way to measure the rate of energy gain from the sun, against the rate of energy gain from the human body (or other sources).

If we lack a method to determine the amount of energy gained from a given source it is difficult to say any claim has more merit then another.

To give some examples.

Instead of writing this post, I could have written a post which detailed the methods I use to draw massive amounts of energy from the sun, while requiring little time or effort. I could have given many reasonable sounding explanations.

Or I could have written a post about why the sun is not a good source, and detailed the mothods which I use to create a massive amount of energy from my body, while requiring little time or effort. I could have given many reasonable sounding explanations.

Because no one has a method of measuring the amount of energy gained in a certain amount of time both of my arguments would have been equally valid.

Imagine a debate of the quickest route to a given location. Although both sides can claim their route is quicker, without a method of measuring distance covered in time passed nether has a superior argument.


Although I have drastically oversimplified the issue, I hope the general idea (that without a system of measure any claim of worth or quality has no real meaning) was understood.



~ Grey

« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 08:16:55 PM by Grey »
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May 23, 2011, 05:04:03 AM
Reply #28

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My humble opinion regarding energy "generation":
Some people "suck" the energy from outer sources, some "generate" it...
Physics for Elementary school say that you cannot generate energy from nothing, you only can transform it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Now, couldn't it be that you are not generating energy by means of creating it from nothing, but you are generating energy by means of transforming it from external sources?

May 23, 2011, 06:09:16 AM
Reply #29

donjitsu2

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My humble opinion regarding energy "generation":
Some people "suck" the energy from outer sources, some "generate" it...
Physics for Elementary school say that you cannot generate energy from nothing, you only can transform it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Now, couldn't it be that you are not generating energy by means of creating it from nothing, but you are generating energy by means of transforming it from external sources?

+1

 :cool: