The Veritas Society
*
*
Home
Forums
Chat
Help
Search
Retro
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 24, 2014, 10:59:17 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:

  Advanced search
216533 Posts in 15417 Topics by 19935 Members - Latest Member: - racarbajalshond Most online today: 119 - most online ever: 430 (June 28, 2007, 02:58:51 PM)
+  The Veritas Society
|-+  Discussion Areas
| |-+  Spirituality
| | |-+  Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene  (Read 3766 times)
Neeros
A Familiar Feature
***
Posts: 194

Karma: 13



Memento Mori


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2011, 01:12:34 AM »

This is a topic I agree with.

~Steve

I think you just made Kilik wet himself.  Tongue
Logged

The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.
- Sun Tzu

[18:22] <Rayn> That makes it worst. If the people can't practically apply and create effects, it is not so good.
[18:22] <metalforever_> okay, and who in the oec can do that? i would say very very few
[18:22] <metalforever_> their too busy fondling their psiballs
Aunt Clair
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1151

Karma: -44




View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 05:48:34 AM »

Was the first Pope really Peter?

No, because Peter usurped the leadership of the church from John and Mary whom were chosen by Christ to be the pillars of the new church according to Gnostic Gospels.

In Pistis Sophia Chapter 96, Christ says;"Where I shall be, there will be also my twelve ministers. But Mary Magdalene and John, the virgin, will tower over all my disciples and over all men who shall receive the mysteries in the Ineffable. And they will be on my right and on my left. And I am they, and they are I."

Peter hated women and wanted Mary Magdalene thrown out of the lessons of the apostles along with all other women.

Christ named 12 male apostles to represent the external gates of the Tree of Life. But Christ also named 7 female apostles saying that the women were called to represent the inner gates of the Tree of Life as the 7 angels who heal the demons of the 7 golden lampstands which transmute the chakras. What school child knows the names of any female apostle? Instead we Christians taught our children that Christ only called men to be apostles but that was a lie which we shared with our progeny because we believed it when it was taught to us.  Many still cling to this lie.

Yet  women and children were there at the Sermon on the Mount . And the 3 Marys were there at the Passion of Christ, the Crucifixtion , the Resurrection and the Pentecost. Women were never excluded by Christ.

And of the apostles, only John and Mary stood at the foot of that Cross on Golgotha .And Christ asked John to care for his mother.

Christ said he came to the restore the temple. The temple had been destroyed since Elijah burnt the Pillars of Asherah and demonised the Mother Goddess just as the church demonised Mary Magdalene.

But Christ taught that Mary was the best of all the apostles and that the apostle John was beloved amongst all the men.

Still, Peter and Paul and Ireneaus removed the Sacred Feminine from the Christian Doctrine. Irenaeus chose which Gospels to include or exclude . He chose not to include the Gospel of Mary Magdalene  and the Gospel of Christ. And the Gospel of John is so different from Matthew, Mark and Luke.

These Synoptic Gospels derived from one source Q were not written by any apostle present at the time of Christ and might even have been written by Ireneaus to serve his own personal vision after reading the Gospels of John, Mary Magdalene, Thomas and Judas who were there in the life of Christ.

Peter took the head of the church and women continued to remain chattel and second class citizens. We Christians and Jews need not look far to see who to blame for the subjugation of women in this world and the tradition of subjugation of Muslem women came from us. Women are not allowed to be Priestess in the Catholic Church although women are ministers in many other Christian faiths and the Anglican Catholic Church has begun recently to have female Bishops.

Mary and John and the remainder of the family of Christ fled in exile to Turkey.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 07:36:52 AM by Aunt Clair » Logged

.......~*~Love, Light & Laughter~*~
~*~Meditation & Mysticism is Magick!~*~
Robin
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1002

Karma: 32



Your friendly neighborhood Verigeek.


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 10:06:56 AM »

Meh, the only reason we are to assume there is a 'boss' (i.e. pope) in christianity at all (and it's not Jesus) is because of the following passage: Mat 16:18-19 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." For some unknown reason, likely due to what we now consider human ingenuity and stupidity, people somehow started assuming that christianity needed a new Peter, should he die (as he did). And then, when this new 'Peter' would die, they would need another one. And so on and so forth. Ergo, pope est.

So, yes, people who believe that the pope is boss (i.e. Roman Catholics) will say Peter was the first pope - for the simple reason that Peter is the reason the concept 'pope' exists at all (as the boss of the christian church, that is). Others, obviously, will either consider the pope to be just another spiritual leader, or will make up interesting conspiracy theories to make themselves feel important.[/rant]
Logged
Kilik
Greenhorn
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 861

Karma: 3


Greenhorn


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2011, 01:43:13 PM »

It doesn't really matter how you want to interpret that verse in the bible.

What matters is whether or not we can historically verify a direct lineage of Popes going back to, and directly connected to, Peter. Historians say no, we can not, as no such lineage existed.
Logged
Steve
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 3363

Karma: 98



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 07:51:46 PM »

Quote
No, because Peter usurped the leadership of the church from John and Mary whom were chosen by Christ to be the pillars of the new church according to Gnostic Gospels.
So you trade one myth for another. Peter did not usurp John and Mary. Peter never claimed to be pope, and we have no records from the era to show that Peter thought himself as above any of the other disciples. That kind of bullshit came later when people started attributing crap like that to the apostles. There were disputes sometimes, certainly, as the apostles even with the Holy Spirit and the revealed message of Jesus and having spent three-ish years at his side were still only human, prone to mistakes and flaws and whatnot.

Quote
Peter hated women and wanted Mary Magdalene thrown out of the lessons of the apostles along with all other women.
Bullshit. That's more propoganda against Peter from sources that never met him and need a scapegoat to pour hatred into so that "they" (ie, "you") can drive the minds of the weak towards believing whatever drivel they can come up with. Peter was a Jew, and there were certain stereotypes that Jews held up to, such as their views of how women "ranked" according to men, but that's NOT the equivalent of hating women.

Quote
Christ named 12 male apostles to represent the external gates of the Tree of Life. But Christ also named 7 female apostles saying that the women were called to represent the inner gates of the Tree of Life as the 7 angels who heal the demons of the 7 golden lampstands which transmute the chakras. What school child knows the names of any female apostle?
None, because it didn't happen. Or can you actually cite that kind of claim?

Quote
Christ said he came to the restore the temple. The temple had been destroyed since Elijah burnt the Pillars of Asherah and demonised the Mother Goddess just as the church demonised Mary Magdalene.
Are you trying to say that the Temple that the Jews and that Jesus talked about, the Temple built as a holy dwelling for YHWH because a couple of Jews themselves wanted to make such a place, was not the temple that Jesus was rebuilding metaphorically, but instead that Jesus was building up a temple to an entity that YHWH denounced? Asherah is not the mother goddess according to Jewish tradition, and neither Jesus nor any of the apostles nor any of the women present in Jesus' teachings would have had reason to believe she was.

Quote
But Christ taught that Mary was the best of all the apostles and that the apostle John was beloved amongst all the men.
No. he. didn't. Primarily because she was not an apostle. She was not recognized by any of the apostles, there are no records of great deeds done by her, not of her having been filled with the blessings of the Holy Spirit as the other apostles were, etc etc. There's no early sources to support what you're claiming.

Quote
Still, Peter and Paul and Ireneaus removed the Sacred Feminine from the Christian Doctrine.
The Sacred Feminine was never there to begin with, just as there was never as Sacred Masculine either.

Quote
Irenaeus chose which Gospels to include or exclude .
No. he. didn't. Once again, learn some history; the gospels were defacto grouped together based mostly on the fact that certain books just got clumped together over time to make a collection (there was some variance to which books were included in which collections, but nowhere near as much as some people claim), which people back then pretty much merely accepted as the defacto bible. No conspiracy crap included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireneaus Circa 2nd Century AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistis_Sophia Possibly as early as 2nd Century AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary_Magdalene No way to date it, but was not even discovered until almost the 1900s, so there's no way Ireneaus could have excluded it because he didn't like it.
Gospel of Christ... which gospel of christ? This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_Jesus_Christ which is fiction? Or this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aquarian_Gospel_of_Jesus_the_Christ which was written by some guy who claimed to pen it from the akashic records? Or is there another that I've never heard of?

Quote
And the Gospel of John is so different from Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Yes, it is. That's nothing new. Does that mean anything?

Quote
These Synoptic Gospels derived from one source Q were not written by any apostle present at the time of Christ
[citation needed] You're confusing theories for facts.

Quote
These Synoptic Gospels derived from one source Q were not written by any apostle present at the time of Christ and might even have been written by Ireneaus
Not possible. They predate him.

Quote
Peter took the head of the church
No. he. didn't. Stop feeding these lies that purport your own misery.

Quote
and women continued to remain chattel and second class citizens.
Nearly ALL christians were second class citizens under the roman empire. Men did not have it much easier than women.

Quote
We Christians and Jews need not look far to see who to blame for the subjugation of women
Yes, it's you and people like you who continue to demand that people adhere to your stereotypes of us and try to tell us that we're being sexist when we've moved on long ago towards a more equal footing.

Quote
Women are not allowed to be Priestess in the Catholic Church although women are ministers in many other Christian faiths and the Anglican Catholic Church has begun recently to have female Bishops.
Who gives a shit about man-made churches? Try focusing more on the congregation that Jesus wanted humans to become instead of placing so much focus in the wrong places.

~Steve
Logged

Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?
Aunt Clair
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1151

Karma: -44




View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 05:33:59 AM »

Peter did not usurp John and Mary.
Pistis Sophia;"On this account I have said unto you aforetime: 'Where I shall be, there will be also my twelve ministers.' But Mary Magdalene and John, the virgin, will tower over all my disciples and over all men who shall receive the mysteries in the Ineffable. And they will be on my right and on my left. And I am they, and they are I."And they will be like unto you in all things save that your thrones will tower over theirs, and my throne will tower over yours.
Quote
Quote
Peter hated women and wanted Mary Magdalene thrown out of the lessons of the apostles along with all other women.
Bullshit.
Mary Magdalene said that she was afraid of Peter because he  hated her gender.

Pistis Sophia 72; Mary is afraid of Peter.It came to pass then, when the First Mystery had finished speaking these words unto the disciples, that Mary came forward and said: "My Lord, my mind is ever understanding, at every time to come forward and set forth the solution of the words which she hath uttered; but I am afraid of Peter, because he threatened me and hateth our sex."

And Peter asked Jesus to send Mary away;
GoT 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."

Pistis Sophia146 Peter said: "My Lord, let the women cease to question, in order that we also may question."
Quote
Quote
What school child knows the names of any female apostle?
None, because it didn't happen. Or can you actually cite that kind of claim?
"The Gnostic scripture titled ‘The Sophia of Jesus Christ’ begins: After he rose from the dead, his twelve disciples and the seven women continued to be his followers and went to Galilee onto the mountain called “Divination and Joy”"

Christ had many male and female disciples. Of these he called 12 men to be ministers and 7 women whom he called the 7 angels of the inner gates. The 7 are not all named as the texts that have been made public have deteriorated and parts have disintegrated and are incomplete. Also, tragically  codices and scrolls were burnt, destroyed, hidden and suppressed by order of Irenaeus the Bishop of Lyons France et al.

Perhaps other codices and scrolls may still become public to reveal their names. The Gospel of Judas was only recently re discovered. Perhaps some remain in the Vatican library or amongst collectors or buried undiscovered which may yet be revealed to the public.

"In "The Sophia of Jesus Christ", we read:"After he rose from the dead, his twelve disciples and seven women continued to be his followers..."Later in the text, Mary (Mariamme) who is one of those "seven women"participates in the dialogues with Jesus just like the male disciples.Unfortunately, the names of the other six women are not mentioned in"The Sophia of Jesus Christ"."

"In "The First Apocalypse of James", the "seven women" are mentioned again:
James said, "I am satisfied [...] and they are [...] my soul. Yet another thing I ask of you: who are the seven women who have been your disciples? And behold all women bless you. This scripture, however, reveals four of these women's names, when Jesus speaks to James:"When you speak these words of this perception, encourage these four:Salome and Mariam and Martha and Arsinoe...""http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=502024"

Seven Women Disciples Project | The Chapel of the Sophia of Valentinus
19 Mar 2011 ... Scriptural evidence for 7 women disciples and exploration of who these women were ...
sophiaofvalentinus.co.uk/category/seven-women-disciples-project/

Pistis Sophia 136;And while Jesus said this, Thomas, Andrew, James and Simon the Cananite were in the west with their faces turned towards the east, and Philip and Bartholomew were in the south turned towards the north, and the rest of the disciples and the women-disciples stood back of Jesus. But Jesus stood at the altar.

From these texts a list may be culled
*Mary Magdalene
*Mary Mother of Christ
*Mary Salome
*Martha
*Miriamne
*Arsinoe

But the name of the 7th female apostle can only be conjectured from a long list of female disciples;

http://hubpages.com/hub/APOSTLES-Women-Disciples-and-Lady-Patriarchs-of-the-Christian-Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_disciples_of_Jesus

The Apostle Mary Magdalene~ " Mentioned in numerous places throughout the New Testament (Matthew 27:56, Matthew 27:61, Matthew 28:1, Mark 15:40, Mark 15:47, Mark 16:1, Mark 16:9, Luke 8:2, Luke 24:10, John 19:25, John 20:1, John 20:10, John 20:18), Mary Magdalene was hailed as the “apostle to the apostles” as the first to see the resurrected Christ and herald the news of His resurrection from the dead.   The apocryphal Gospel of Mary Magdalene chronicles Mary’s appointment and establishment as an apostle over a large portion of the early Christian church; The Gospel of Thomas cites Mary as an equal of Peter, who saw her as a rival.Little is known about her life; the fact that she is known by the city of her origin (Magdala) rather than her patriarchal lineage establishes her as unique and special.  Revered as a saint in several Christian traditions, and as a model of Christian perseverance and faith among modern Christian denominations.   Identity distorted as a prostitute or woman of ill-refute; some modern theories suppose she was the wife of Christ and mother of Christ’s offspring/bloodline, but this lie equally suppresses her reality as a church apostle"http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

Mary Magdalene, Joanna & Susanna/Shoshanna ~ "Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Mag'dalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joan'na, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means." Luke 8:1-3"

Mark 16:9 "Now after he had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."
The 7 demons are in every human in the 7 golden lampstands or chakras. When perfected the 7 inner gates manifest 7 angels. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XX72gcZQ8AUJ:www.spiritbride.org/A/spiritbride/7%2520spirits%2520of%2520god.htm+Mary+Magdalene+seven+angels&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

Quote
Only with Mary Magdalene do we hear of seven demons ejected from one person. Usually people have concluded, "She sinned more deeply, so she had more demons to eject." We have a different point of view.

The number seven gives the clue. Since ancient times, spiritual science has understood that human beings have seven energy centers through the body. These "wheels of energy" are called "chakras" in Sanskrit. One can trace this understanding from the earliest teachings in India, into the cultures of Babylon and Assyria, then into the culture of Egypt. From thence, it came through the traditions of the Hebrews -- one can see many references to the seven-fold structure of spiritual worlds in Hebrew scriptures and thought, which they picked up from their captivities in Babylon and Egypt.(3) "Wisdom (Sophia) has built her house; she has hewn her seven pillars" (Proverbs 9) refers directly to the seven-fold foundations of our being. Today this awareness is the focus of the spiritual science of various healers who work with the seven chakras and seven levels.(4)

You can see this notion of the seven levels in the Hebrew menorah, where the six arms of the candle-holders come up and around the central light of spirit. The fact that Mary Magdalene was released of seven devils makes her unique in Christian lore. Yet, how was this fact dealt with? With suspicion, fear, and scorn.

The stigmata of her past -- having had seven devils in her -- became more important than her cleansed state. And she seemed to gather up the sins of other women named in the Bible, i.e., Luke's 'sinner' and the woman accused of adultery.

Around the year 600, Pope Gregory "the Great" declared that Mary Magdalene was the same as the unnamed prostitute in the Bible, therefore one ought to hold her as the penitent whore. In his Homily 33, similar to the Executive Orders used by Presidents to define policy, he stated: She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, we believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices?... It is clear, brothers, that the woman previously used the unguent to perfume her flesh in forbidden acts.(5) In this he designated Mary Magdalene the whore, which he amended to become the "penitent whore," the woman in tears seeking forgiveness for her sins.

This designation has shrouded her in a cloak of shame, and kept her wisdom hidden from us.

However, a strong case can be made about the value her "repentance" has had through the centuries in inspiring women (and men) to find hope when they were truly down and out.

Note that the Greek word interpreted as "sinner" in this Gospel was "harmartolos". It can be translated to mean one who has transgressed or placed herself outside the law-or quite simply, one who was not Jewish. And it was used in that manner elsewhere in the scriptures. The word itself does not imply a street walker or a prostitute.

One of the first big realizations to occur when researching this story is that there is no direct reference anywhere in the Bible to Magdalene as a prostitute.

Only in 1969 did the Catholic Church officially repeal Gregory's labeling as "whore," admitting their error, though Mary Magdalene as the penitent whore has remained in public teachings of all Christian sects. Like a small error notice in the back pages of a newspaper, the Church's correction goes unnoticed, while the initial and incorrect article continues to influence the readers. But let us remember that she was healed by Jesus Christ of the seven demons, the aspects that cloud our vision and energy at each of our seven centers.

Presumably, she no longer had the seven deadly sins -- pride, lust, envy, anger, covetousness, gluttony, and sloth. In their place she had the corresponding virtues.(6) She had cleared the way for "the seven virgins of light."(7) This purification makes her the most thoroughly sanctified person mentioned in the New Testament. Imagine this for a moment: completely cleansed of prejudice and old grudges, fogs of illusion, hereditary obstacles to health, all desires....
http://www.spiritbride.org/A/spiritbride/7%20spirits%20of%20god.htm.

Christ purified Mary Magdalene and exalted her "above all her brethren" ;  Pistis Sophia of Christ 17: "Mary Magdalene asketh and receiveth permission to speak “And Jesus, the compassionate, answered and said unto Mary: “Mary, thou blessed one,whom I will perfect in all mysteries of those of the height, discourse in openness, thou,whose heart is raised to the kingdom of heaven more than all thy brethren.” "

Mary Salome ~ Jesus said to her, “I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father.” Salome:  “I am your disciple.” Jesus:  “For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness.” "We find the Gnostic Salome in The Gospel of Thomas and The Pistis Sophia.  Clement of Alexandria also references her as he relates fragments of the Gospel of the Egyptians.  It’s interesting that these verses all revolve around the issues of wholeness vs. division.  In the Pistis Sophia in congratulating Salome for her understanding, Jesus states:  “Well said, Salome. Amēn, amēn, I say unto you: I will perfect you in all mysteries of the kingdom of the Light.”  This is reminiscent of the {gospel of Philip?} where the perfection of female elements into male and beyond stated.  Indeed, the evidence for Salome as a perfected initiate is borne out by the 1st Apocalyse of James where Jesus names her first in the list of women disciples. "http://sophiaofvalentinus.co.uk/

Martha & Mary of Bethany ~When Martha complained that her sister Mary of Bethany was not helping with the culturally appropriate household duties, but sitting at Jesus' feet as a disciple and listening, Jesus responded that Mary has made a, "good choice, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42)

The Apostle Mariamne~   "The sister of the Apostle Philip and companion in apostolic work of the Apostles Philip and Bartholomew.  Regarded as “the Apostolic Virgin;” these three successfully preached and converted souls at Hieropolis; while Philip was crucified, the Apostles Bartholomew and Mariamne were set free.She travelled with Apostle Bartholomew to India and, upon his death, proclaimed the Gospel throughout Asia Minor. Revered as a saint in several Christian traditions, and as a model of Christian perseverance and faith; Virtually unknown and ignored in identity by the majority of Christians, both traditional, and modern"http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

Junia ~In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles."Commended by the Apostle Paul as being of outstanding note among the apostles and one who was an apostle prior to Paul’s apostolic call.Considered to be an apostle counted among the seventy in Luke 10:1-10 Co-worker with Andronicus, a male relative (many believe to be her husband).   Revered as a saint in several Christian traditions, and as a model of Christian perseverance and faith among modern Christian denominations. Identity suppressed as male (Junias), first by the Roman Catholic Church and subsequent traditions for over 1,000 years as church traditions fought the idea of a female apostle
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=502024
http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/women/junia.shtml
http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

The Apostle Thelca~  " A convert moved by the Apostle Paul’s preaching on virtue and virginity in the apocryphal writing, The Acts of Paul and Thelca
Miraculously saved from being burned at the stake. Had to fight against an unsupportive family influence to pursue the work and apostolic work of the Gospel.    Cited as a role model for women.  Hailed as “the Apostle and protomartyr among women” and “equal to the apostles;” revered as a saint in many Christian traditions.    Hidden identity and nearly unknown due to lack of knowledge of The Acts of Paul and Thelca"http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

Phoebe ~Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchrea. Some translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by mistranslating it as "servant" or "helper".
http://www.witnesschange.org/12Examples.html
http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

Euodia & Synthyche~Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as coworkers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.
http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history

Photini & Anatole, Photo, Photis, Paraskeve, and Kyriake~
http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history
Quote
The Apostle Photini and her five apostle sisters~  The Samaritan woman with whom Jesus had His longest discourse in Scripture in John 4; often regarded as the first to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. Hailed as “the enlightened one” and an “Equal to the Apostles,” she is also believed to have become a martyr, beheaded at the hands of an emperor.  She successfully converted her five sisters (Anatole, Photo, Photis, Paraskeve, and Kyriake) and two sons (Victor and Joses) to follow Christ.    She and her five sisters were baptized by the apostles, and worked in Carthage to proclaim the Gospel after working and assisting the Apostles Peter and Paul.  Revered as a saint in several Christian traditions, and unnamed in many modern Biblical congregations.   Identity distorted; the Samaritan woman is vilified as a harlot or sinner, rather than her work in Christ; misunderstood and powerfully distorted; do not view her redeemed, but permanently sinful

Tabitha/Dorcas~ is also named as a disciple, "Full of good works and acts of charity." (Acts 9:36-41)  Acts 9:36 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick had died; Peter brought her back to life.

4 Daughters of Phillip ~ Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets.

The Apostle Apphia~    Mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Philemon 1:2 as “our dear sister” and one to whom the letter was specifically addressed.  Considered to be an apostle counted among the seventy in Luke 10:1-10.    Co-worker with her husband, the Apostle Philemon; held prayer in her home during a pagan feast.    Revered as a saint in several Christian traditions, and as a model of Christian perseverance and faith; she is believed to have been a martyr, killed by pagans in Colossae.    Virtually unknown and ignored in identity by the majority of Christians, both traditional, and modern
http://www.slideshare.net/powerfortoday/female-apostles-in-history
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 09:02:26 AM by Aunt Clair » Logged

.......~*~Love, Light & Laughter~*~
~*~Meditation & Mysticism is Magick!~*~
Steve
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 3363

Karma: 98



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 05:52:28 PM »

Don't bother continuing just yet. I'm ignoring everything from the Pistis Sophia, the Apocalypse of James, and pretty much every other gnostic source out there by virtue of none of them being worthwhile sources of historical information on Jesus nor any of the apostles.

Quote
Pistis Sophia
"Pistis Sophia is an important Gnostic text, possibly written as early as the 2nd century. The five remaining copies, which scholars place in the 5th or 6th centuries ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistis_Sophia For such an "important" gnostic text, it's a shame there's so little written about it.

Also a nice little resource http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

It was written much later than the rest of the NT, and definitely long after anyone who would have known Jesus, Peter or Mary would have died, so I really don't care what it has to say. Some dumb tart who comes along a hundred years after an event and tries to mix another religion into theirs isn't worth my time.

Quote
In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles."
Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[a] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
a. Or are esteemed by
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016:7&version=NIV

The Greek in that part does not specifically list either of those two people as apostles, and seems far more akin to the concept of "the apostles esteemed those two people".
http://www.greekbible.com/index.php There's an excellent resource for the greek NT. You just need to click on each word and it pops up the english uses of the word in a seperate window; the only thing you'd need to learn is greek sentence structure and grammar.

Quote
In "The First Apocalypse of James", the "seven women" are mentioned again:
Doubtless they were secreted during the fourth century, in an effort to hide the texts from destruction by others.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Apocalypse_of_James Hm, unfortunately there's not much in the way of dating for the possible original texts. Curiouser still that the book apparently claims, in contradiction to the idea that Peter was head of the early church, that "James was the most senior apostle". Also curious to note: "One of the most curious features of the First Apocalypse of James is that the range of dating of its original text, assigned to it by scholars, requires that it was written after the Second Apocalypse of James."

Quote
Seven Women Disciples Project | The Chapel of the Sophia of Valentinus
19 Mar 2011 ... Scriptual evidence for 7 women disciples and exploration of who these women were ...
sophiaofvalentinus.co.uk/category/seven-women-disciples-project/
It's a nice effort, but there's not much in the way of solid facts or information. Maybe that's because it's still fairly new.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_disciples_of_Jesus#Terminology:_.22Disciples.22_and_.22Apostles.22 There's another resource for something similar, particularily that linked portion is relevant to statements like this:

Quote
When Martha complained that her sister Mary of Bethany was not helping with the culturally appropriate household duties, but sitting at Jesus' feet as a disciple and listening, Jesus responded that Mary has made a, "good choice, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42) Tabitha is also named as a disciple, "Full of good works and acts of charity." (Acts 9:36-41)

Acts 9:36 The author of Luke referred to a female disciple by her Aramaic name Tabitha, who was also known by her Greek name Dorcas. She became sick had died; Peter brought her back to life.

Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets.

Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as coworkers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.

Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchrea. Some translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by mistranslating it as "servant" or "helper".
Something to defintely note here is that the term apostle referred to specific individuals who were chosen for a specific purpose. The term is not once in the NT applied to anyone other than 1) the Twelve whom Jesus chose, 2) Matthias, in the opening chapter of Acts 3) Saul/Paul of Tarsus, and 4) unspecified groups (and being unspecified, there is no valid means of declaring "oh, the writer meant this, or that"). None of the other early MALE christians, even among those who worked very hard, were listed by that title either. More important to YHWH than a title with which people want to honour themselves, is humbling one's self and doing the will of God.

Mat 10:2 These are the names of the twelve apostles:
Mar 3:14 He appointed twelve--designating them apostles
Luk 6:13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles
(Rather neat to learn that the word apostle apparently doesn't exist in the book of John)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=apostle%2A&page=1&sf=5&t=NIV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G652&t=KJV The Strongs number for "Apostle". The term only appears under this word, and the next word if you want to include it. It was a very distinct term from merely any disciple.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G651&t=KJV The Strongs number for "Apostleship"

Next, performing wonders and miracles were not restricted to only the apostles. "1Cr 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?"

Quote
The [font size=10]Gnostic[/size] scripture titled

Oh, look, one from Gospel of Thomas that I almost missed.
Quote
And Peter asked Jesus to send Mary away;
GoT 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."

[Saying added to the original collection at a later date:] 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/Trans.htm Oh wait, what?! >_>

Quote
Christ came to restore the temple .In my exegesis, Christ meant to balance it again with Father God AND Mother Goddess.
YHWH is One god. "He" is not merely a masculine god, though the Jews tended to view him that way and many today mistake him for being such, but if you look at the way YHWH acts and speaks in the Jewish writings you get a much better non-gender-biased idea of "his" identity.

Quote
The Divine Feminine was known as Asherah in the time of Elijah and in the time of Solomon
No, she wasn't viewed as the "divine feminine"; she was viewed as a distinct diety who just so happened to (supposedly) be female-gendered. She was not the only diety who was thought to be female. In the more primitive mindsets of the Jews and other cultures back then, they tended to view their dieties as reflections of themselves, and that's where the gender roles often came into play. (And that's not even jumping into the discussion of YHWH condemning the Jews' worship of Ashtorah)


To be clear, I'm sure Jesus looked at women as human beings just the same as he did men. But, does that mean he necessarily chose any women to spread "his" message? Not necessarily. It doesn't matter one way or the other to God who would be chosen to spread the message; if God wants that message spread then God will make sure to take active steps to ensure that message is spread, irrespective of the genders of the individuals doing it. Secondly, it was not solely the apostles who spread the message; they were given a spiffy title that they seemed to like quite a bit, but otherwise YHWH theoretically has existed from long before any of those men or women of the early church were formed and theoretically continues to exist even now long after the ancient bodies of those people have turned to dust. The message of YHWH was always greater than the humans who spread it, and has existed since long before the humans who began spreading it in such a religious manner, and will continue to exist long after you and I and all others like us become dust as well.

~Steve
Logged

Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?
Aunt Clair
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1151

Karma: -44




View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 09:56:22 AM »

It was written much later than the rest of the NT, and definitely long after anyone who would have known Jesus, Peter or Mary would have died, so I really don't care what it has to say. Some dumb tart who comes along a hundred years after an event and tries to mix another religion into theirs isn't worth my time.

Actually the PSoC is comparable and dates within a similar range according to your own source cited in this thread;

The Gospel of Mark ~ Dating varies
Bible Gateway:The time when this Gospel was written is not certainly known. It is supposed to have been between the years 56 and 63 a.d. It is allowed by all that it was written at Rome; of course it was during the latter years of his life, after the apostles had left Judea
Wikipedia:unlikely to be written by Mark the Evangelist around 70 AD, possibly in Syria. Author's use of varied sources tells against the traditional account of authorship,and according to the majority view the author is probably unknown.Scholars state that 12 lines of the resurrection story was added centuries later being absent in earlier copies and these additions and other revisions stopped in the middle of the 2nd century.
Early Christian Writings : 65-80    Gospel of Mark

The Gospel According to Matthew~ Dating Varies ,derived from Q not from an eyewitness of Jesus's ministry,
Bible Gateway :Epiphanius says that the Gospel by Matthew was written while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome. This was about 63 AD, about the time of the destruction of Jerusalem
Wikipedia : written between about 80-90 AD
Early Christian Writing : 80-100  AD Gospel of Matthew

The Gospel of John ~Dating varies, written by the Apostle John and completed after his death by his students.
Wikipedia :90-100AD
Early Christian Writing:90-120 AD

The Gospel of Luke~Dating varies
Bible Gateway~"All that can with certainty be ascertained is that it was written before the death of Paul (65 a.d.), for it was written before the Acts Act 1:1, and that book only brings down the life of Paul to his imprisonment at Rome, and previous to his going into Spain."
Wikipedia : derived from Mark and  Q after Mark and Matthew before  130 AD
Early Christian Writings :80-130AD

Acts ~ Written by Paul and conjectured to be co-authored by Thecla a female.
Bible Gateway:Rome 63AD
Wikipedia:96-100AD
Early Christian Writings:150-200AD

So these 5 books of the New Testament are written 65-200AD

General Dating of the New Testament ~
Wikipedia: 51-150AD
Quote
The earliest works which came to be part of the New Testament are the letters of the Apostle Paul. The Gospel of Mark is dated between the range of 65 and 72. Most scholars believe that Matthew and Luke were written after the composition of Mark as they make use of Mark's content. Therefore they are generally dated later than Mark although the extent is debated. Matthew is dated between 70 and 85. Luke is usually placed within 80 to 95. However a select few scholars disagree with this as Luke indicates in the book of Acts that he has already written the Gospel of Luke prior to writing the introduction to Acts. The earliest of the books of the New Testament was First Thessalonians, an epistle of Paul, written probably in AD 51, or possibly Galatians in 49 according to one of two theories of its writing. Of the pseudepigraphical epistles, scholars tend to place them somewhere between 70 and 150, with Second Peter usually being the latest.[citation needed]
PSoC ~Sources vary there is no definitive date some say The PS o C  is written 11 years after the Crucifixtion and earlier than the Synoptic Gospels .
Quote
Also a nice little resource http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
And you will note that your source dates The Pistis Sophia of Jesus Christ at 50-200 AD in the same or earlier range than the Synoptic Gospels,John and Acts at 65-200AD

Quote
Quote
In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles."
Romans 16:7Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[a] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.a. Or are esteemed by
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016:7&version=NIV
   
Junia is either noted, highly respected, esteemed or outstanding among the apostles in most translations.Here are  numerous parallel translations ;

New International Version (©1984)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They were belonged to the Messiah before I did.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, who are Jewish by birth like me. They are prisoners like me and are prominent among the apostles. They also were Christians before I was.

King James Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

American King James Version
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

American Standard Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Bible in Basic English
Give my love to Andronicus and Junia, my relations, who were in prison with me, who are noted among the Apostles, and who were in Christ before me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Darby Bible Translation
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me.

English Revised Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Salute Andronicus and Junia my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Weymouth New Testament
and to Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen, who once shared my imprisonment. They are of note among the Apostles, and are Christians of longer standing than myself.

World English Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Young's Literal Translation
salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Although I agree that this one is definitely distinct  ;
English Standard Version (©2001)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_disciples_of_Jesus#Terminology:_.22Disciples.22_and_.22Apostles.22 There's another resource for something similar, particularily that linked portion is relevant to statements like this:

Thank you, I wrote most of that article at Wikipedia and I linked the reference material you cited.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:25:11 AM by Aunt Clair » Logged

.......~*~Love, Light & Laughter~*~
~*~Meditation & Mysticism is Magick!~*~
Steve
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 3363

Karma: 98



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 06:38:55 PM »

Quote
Actually the PSoC is comparable and dates within a similar range according to your own source cited in this thread;
No, I quite certainly quoted wikipedia as stating that it's earliest possible composition was the second century, whereas it could easily have been written anywhere up to the fifth century as that is the oldest copy we have (earlychristianwritings lists the earliest possible date as 200AD and the last possible date as 300AD). That's a pretty big span. 2nd century is anywhere from 100AD to 199AD, and 5th century is from 400AD to 499AD.

You, yourself, quote Mark as being prior to 100AD, Matthew as being at the latest 100AD, Luke and John as possibly as late as prior to half way through the first century AD. And you must have looked at the wrong book of Acts on earlychristianwritings, as the one from the bible is listed as "80-130 Acts of the Apostles". So the span here is anywhere from 65AD to 130AD. That's about a thirty year potential overlap for attempting to say that the writing of the Pistis of Sophia was written in about the same time span, out of a potential gap of (end of 5th century minus 130 AD equals) 369 years. Even if we scale it down to earlychristianwriting's last possible date of 300AD, that's still a potential 170 years difference between the end of the writing of the gospels and acts versus the writing of Pistis Sophia.

Quote
And you will note that your source dates The Pistis Sophia of Jesus Christ at 50-200 AD in the same or earlier range than the Synoptic Gospels,John and Acts at 65-200AD
Um, no. I've attached the picture: notice the highlighted portion in the bottom right that says "200-300 Pistis Sophia". I also highlighted the book of Acts, since we're disputing that too.

Quote
Junia is either noted, highly respected, esteemed or outstanding among the apostles in most translations.Here are  numerous parallel translations ;
Now, let's look at what that can mean in English.

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are [considered to be] outstanding among [according to the thoughts of] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Not a difficult translation difference, and it's easy to see how translators might have written the english version poorly, and the way that the greek is written supports this.

EDIT:
οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

I figure it's just easier to copy the whole second half of that phrase and put the translation for each word used. So, that up there in greek is the second half of the sentence, from "They are outstanding" etc. Note that the words aren't spelt the same between above and below because below is basing it off of the roots and I'm just not copying the "Case, Number, and Gender" of the word as that complicates things muchly. (All of this is blatantly stolen from greekbible.com, which I believe using Strongs translations for the definitions, but I could be wrong. Also something to note from greekbible.com: * Please Note: Because of limitations in our source data (our lexical database does not have accents) the information on this page may be inaccurate. At this time there is no way for us to improve this precision. In many/most cases this data is correct, but always consult another lexicon before relying on this data. So please consult another lexicon if you want to)

ὅστις,rr  \{hos'-tis}
 1) whoever, whatever, who

εἰμί,v  \{i-mee'}
 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ἐπίσημος,a  \{ep-is'-ay-mos}
 1) having a mark on it, marked, stamped, coined  2) marked  2a) in a good sense  2a1) of note, illustrious  2b) in a bad sense  2b1) notorious, infamous

ἐν,p  \{en}
 1) in, by, with etc.

ὁ,ra  \{ho} (fun fact that probably doesn't matter to this discussion, this word is used to denote a specific instance of a concept. Ie, not merely "apples", but "these apples right here".)
 1) the  2) this, that, these, etc.

ἀπόστολος,n  \{ap-os'-tol-os}
 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders  1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ  1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers  1b1) of Barnabas  1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus

ὅς,rr  \{hos}
 1) who, which, what, that

καί,d  \{kahee}
 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

πρός,p  \{pros}
 1) to the advantage of  2) at, near, by  3) to, towards, with, with regard to

ἐγώ,rp  \{eg-o'}
 1) I, me, my

γίνομαι,v  \{ghin'-om-ahee}
 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being  2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen  2a) of events  3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage  3a) of men appearing in public  4) to be made, finished  4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought  5) to become, be made

ἐν,p  \{en}
 1) in, by, with etc.

Χριστός,n  \{}
 1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God  2) anointed

So, a quick reading might make the sentence look something like (Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me) "who exist with-a-stamp in/by/with the/these <apostles> who also near me exist in/by/with Christ".

So, "are marked/noted in the apostles", "are marked/noted by the apostles", "are marked/noted with the the apostles" might all seem to be valid translations. Unfortunately, this is where it gets complicated in translation.

The word for "exist/happen/present" has the following characteristics in this fragment of the sentence.
Person    3
Tense    P
Voice    A
Mood    I
Number    P

The word for "apostles" has the following characteristics.
Case    D
Number    P
Gender    M

http://www.foundalis.com/lan/grkgram.htm Explanations of those things.

The one of most note is that it's third person. Wouldn't be a big deal, except that the word for apostles is not used in third person here, which would be perfectly normal for a writer who considered himself to belong to the very group that he's writing about. The author distinctly split them up, as further evidenced by the fact that the apostles are case D, which means they are the subject of the sentence, whereas Andronicus and Junias are case A, which means they are the object of the sentence. My brain is a little tired right now, so maybe I'm missing something and improperly separating the object of a phrase from the subject of a phrase, but someone else can correct me if I am (I dunno, like maybe saying "Junias, as a teacher, is esteemed among other the teachers"? Of course, it could also be read as "Junias, as a student, is esteemed among the teachers." The problem here is that Andronicus and Junias are not specifically grouped with the apostles and nowhere else in the entirety of either Paul's writings or the rest of the canonical bible are people other than the 14 apostles specifically listed as apostles, so we have no precedent to assume Andronicus and Junias should be grouped in, in the absence of that specific confirmation).

~Steve

Okay, I swear I'm done editing now, Dutie ^_^;


* Clipboard01.jpg (243.67 KB, 1236x1002 - viewed 94 times.)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 07:20:04 PM by Steve » Logged

Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?
Aunt Clair
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1151

Karma: -44




View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 07:50:58 AM »

Meh, the only reason we are to assume there is a 'boss' (i.e. pope) in christianity at all (and it's not Jesus) is because of the following passage: Mat 16:18-19 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." For some unknown reason, likely due to what we now consider human ingenuity and stupidity, people somehow started assuming that christianity needed a new Peter, should he die (as he did). And then, when this new 'Peter' would die, they would need another one. And so on and so forth. Ergo, pope est.

So, yes, people who believe that the pope is boss (i.e. Roman Catholics) will say Peter was the first pope - for the simple reason that Peter is the reason the concept 'pope' exists at all (as the boss of the christian church, that is). Others, obviously, will either consider the pope to be just another spiritual leader, or will make up interesting conspiracy theories to make themselves feel important.[/rant]
But that line can also mean that he was given the keys to go to the heavenly realms as were all other apostles as suggested in the Gnostic Gospels which teach that Christ manifested a legion of angels from his body and projected in trance from his body to the realm of Barbello i.e the recently rediscovered Gospel of Judas. And the bedrock can mean the bargain basement and the least of the apostles and not meant to "rule" at all. And that line did not come from any apostle that was there with Christ , it came from the source Q which is believed to have been contrived after reading and censoring existing gospels by apostles who were present at the time of Christ. And the Eastern Rite disagreed about the lineage of Peter and felt that the papal line should have followed John.
Logged

.......~*~Love, Light & Laughter~*~
~*~Meditation & Mysticism is Magick!~*~
Steve
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 3363

Karma: 98



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 04:55:03 PM »

"Mat 16:18-19 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven"
Translating those sentences has cleared up a couple of things for me regarding the different ways people want to translate it. 1) Jesus is speaking to Peter directly, and solely Peter in the singular. Jesus is not including the other apostles/disciples. 2) Peter, and solely Peter in the singular, is given "THE" keys, "THE" power/rule, "THE" heavens.

"give" in the singular, first person, active, and future tense. (ie, "I will give")
"you" in the dative case and the singular.
"the" in the accusative case, and the plural.
"key" in the accusative case, and the plural. (object of the sentence)
"the" in the genitive case, and the singular. (genitive meaning possessive)
"power/rule/kingship/dominion/etc" in the genitive case, and the singular.
"the" in the genitive case, and the plural.
"heavens/skies/vaulted expanses" in the genitive case, and the plural.

Something I'm still unsure of due to my lack of complex understanding of cases and whatnot, is "who or what" is the rock upon which Jesus wanted to build his congregation. Since the second rock is not capitalized, I would tend to fall towards the idea that Jesus was not referring to Peter. In the first part of the sentence, Peter's name is used in the nominative case but the second "rock" is used in the dative, which seems rather weird to me if Jesus meant Peter again except that Jesus refers to "you" in the dative in the very next sentence when referencing who Jesus is giving the stuff (so, once again, it's probably just my lack of understanding of language that prevents me from getting it).

Still quite interesting to translate.

~Steve
Logged

Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?
Robin
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 1002

Karma: 32



Your friendly neighborhood Verigeek.


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 01:58:19 AM »

Something I'm still unsure of due to my lack of complex understanding of cases and whatnot, is "who or what" is the rock upon which Jesus wanted to build his congregation. Since the second rock is not capitalized, I would tend to fall towards the idea that Jesus was not referring to Peter. In the first part of the sentence, Peter's name is used in the nominative case but the second "rock" is used in the dative, which seems rather weird to me if Jesus meant Peter again except that Jesus refers to "you" in the dative in the very next sentence when referencing who Jesus is giving the stuff (so, once again, it's probably just my lack of understanding of language that prevents me from getting it).
'Rock' is in this grammatical case because "to build on" requires a dative (at least I think so, my knowledge of old languages is a bit rusty). If a nominative case were used, the sentence would read (again, I think) "And I tell you that you are Peter, and I, this rock, will build my church [...]". Thus, the church will be built -on- Peter (metaphorically speaking), but Peter won't necessarily be the person building the church - Jesus says he will do that himself. Since there seems to be no other entity Jesus could be refering to in the first part of this sentence, I think it most likely that Jesus is indeed refering to Peter.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 02:18:34 AM by Robin » Logged
Kilik
Greenhorn
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 861

Karma: 3


Greenhorn


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2011, 03:41:20 PM »

Cool full length Documentary-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWYBNCLSOM
Quote
BLOODLINE investigates the popular belief that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, who fled to southern France with their child. In an adventure worthy of Indiana Jones, filmmaker Bruce Burgess and team crack the shadowy secret society, known as the Priory of Sion. Their investigation follows clues linking the Knights Templar and the legend of Mary Magdalene with messages imbedded in the decor of the famed church at Rennes-le-Chateau in France, leading ultimately to stunning discoveries: a buried chest with artifacts dating to 1st century Jerusalem and a hidden tomb filled with treasure and a mummified corpse draped in a shroud bearing a distinctive red cross.
Logged
Kilik
Greenhorn
Posts By Osmosis
*****
Posts: 861

Karma: 3


Greenhorn


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2011, 02:16:37 PM »

Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. I believe it was the Catholic Church which slandered her as one, because she was a closer disciple to Jesus and actually outranked Peter who they claim was the first Pope. Mary Magdalene was really the first one to see him after he came back to life, and was the one who propagated his teachings the most after his death. It was Mary Magdalene who started Christianity in it's earliest form, not Peter-

Gospel of Mary Banned from the Bible-
Gospels banned from the bible 10 of 14 (by TRB)

Lost Gospel of Mary Magdalene-
YouTube - The lost Gospel of Mary Magdalene

The Lost Gospel of Phillip claims Jesus would kiss Mary Magdalene and loved her the most out of all the Disciples-
YouTube - The lost Gospel of Philip, Jesus and MaryMagdalene

The Real Mary Magdalene
YouTube - The Real Mary Magdalene ( 1 of 5 )
YouTube - The Real Mary Magdelene ( 2 of 5 )
YouTube - The Real Mary Magdelene ( 3 of 5 )
YouTube - The Real Mary Magdelene ( 4 of 5 )
YouTube - The Real Magdelene ( 5 of 5 )

There's something about Mary Magdalene-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fA1yXWPuv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5BM62OtNbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1jakgWUBHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlNEOUj3D-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz_FnyVTXDM

Did God have a Wife?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aYaV72MmWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HYpGHXagBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiL64K5OIBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqlrhqqNwo


Peter denied Jesus 3 times and had issues. He always screwed up and was seeming to miss the point of Jesus's teachings while Jesus was alive. Jesus initiated him and taught to unselfishly love and be peaceful, then he goes and cuts off a Roman slave's ear, etc. etc. At fist he did not want to accept that Mary Magdalene had the highest teaching from Jesus.

Info-
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene
Quote
She is the Savior's beloved, possessed of knowledge and teaching superior to that of the public apostolic tradition. Her superiority is based on vision and private revelation and is demonstrated in her capacity to strengthen the wavering disciples and turn them toward the Good.

more info-
The Life of Mary Magdalene

Gospel of Mary Magdalene-
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
Quote
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
 
Chapter 4
 
(Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)
 
. . . Will matter then be destroyed or not?
 
22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.
 
23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.
 
24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
 
25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?
 
26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.
 
27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.
 
28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.
 
29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.
 
30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body.
 
31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.
 
32) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
 
33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves.
 
34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you.
 
35) Follow after Him!
 
36) Those who seek Him will find Him.
 
37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.
 
38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it.
 
39) When He said this He departed.
 

Chapter 5
 
1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?
 
2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.
 
3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.
 
4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.
 
5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.
 
6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.
 
7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you.
 
Cool And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me,
 
9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
 
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
 
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...]
 
(pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript)
 

Chapter 8:
 
. . . it.
 
10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me?
 
11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me.
 
12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly.
 
13) Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance.
 
14) The power questioned the soul, saying, Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!
 
15) And the soul said, Why do you judge me, although I have not judged?
 
16) I was bound, though I have not bound.
 
17) I was not recognized. But I have recognized that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly things and the heavenly.
 
18) When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, which took seven forms.
 
19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath.
 
20) They asked the soul, Whence do you come slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
 
21) The soul answered and said, What binds me has been slain, and what turns me about has been overcome,
 
22) and my desire has been ended, and ignorance has died.
 
23) In a aeon I was released from a world, and in a Type from a type, and from the fetter of oblivion which is transient.
 
24) From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence.
 

Chapter 9
 
1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.
 
2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.
 
3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.
 
4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?
 
5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?
 
6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.
 
7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.
 
Cool But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.
 
9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.
 
10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 02:21:19 PM by Kilik » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Oxygen design by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!