Author Topic: Weight Training....  (Read 12540 times)

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December 21, 2003, 02:51:49 PM
Reply #30

DarkWaterMoon

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Is my example the proper way to gain strength and muscle?? JOSH!

December 21, 2003, 10:14:32 PM
Reply #31

Big Boss

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sorry I didn't make my self clear. gigantic bulky muscles will slow you down. I bet you a thousand dollars a champion body builder can punch nowhere near as fast as a trained martial artist. martial arts is about speed, why don't you see bulky fast guys? because its practically impossible to do. now I'm not bashing on big guys, I've seen huge guys do major stuff, but I see smaller guys do more.

velocity times distance equals momentum, or vd=p.

if a big guy could punch fast, he'd hit hard, but that goes back to conquering inertia.

and have you ever seen a sprinters ankles? they aren't bulky. their thighs and hamstrings are, and did you notice how far the thighs travel compared to the ankles and feet? about 1/3 the distance. the bulky muscles are used to propel something lighter. if your shoulder and forearm are huge, then you have more mass, hence more inertia. then you need more energy to make it move fast. yes, hefty triceps will probably make you snap your arm out faster, or at least harder, but I'm talking the whole arm in general.
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December 21, 2003, 10:56:58 PM
Reply #32

donjitsu2

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Quote from: Ninja Kl0wn
Myth: Muscles = slow.  Muscles DO NOT make you slower.  In fact, they do the opposite (provided of force you have developed functional fitness as opposed to pretty boy body builder muscles). Look at the legs of an olympic sprinter.  They have monster legs, and are obviously not slower because of it. Your muscles are what cause you to move. Why would anyone think that having stronger muscles would make you move slower?


Go to the library and check out The Art of Expressing the Human Body, by John Little.


               *****STRENGTH DOES NOT EQUAL MASS!*****


Sorry, but big muscles = dead meat when it comes to combat. When a muscle gains large amounts of mass it is usually due to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which basically adds a bunch of tissue that is more akin to scar tissue then actual muscle. And let us not forget that a smaller muscle has a higher strength to mass ratio than a larger one. Also training that induces this sarcoplasmic hypertrophy actually doesn't build the most sport specific type of strength for a martial artist. Strength training that is designed to specifically build muscle mass does help improve limit strength, it does not improve the rate of force development, or speed strength. Speed Strength is the most sport specific type of strength training. And though training one's limit strength is important to a martial artist, building that strength using a method that builds mass is a huge mistake. A better option would be to use nervous system efficiency training instead of the more common bodybuilding methods.

"The Art of Expressing the Human Body" is about Bruce Lee's training method. While Mr. Lee was a good martial artist, his training methods weren't exactly up to date (especially since during Lee's time the capitalist west knew nothing of the extensive - and more often than not, superior - strength training methods of the reclusive Soviets). Also, don't forget that Bruce Lee never weighed more than 165 lbs and when he did he hated it and cut back down to 130 lbs. His great strength and speed were not a result of large size. Had he been muscle bound (and this goes for any martial artist) he would never have been able to move as fast as he did.

Comparing sprinters and martial artists isn't a good idea. The requirements for performing well in either of the two sports are so vastly different that such a comparison seems laughable.

DWM: muscle: yes. Strength: probably not, there are better ways.

Josh Skinner

December 21, 2003, 11:03:20 PM
Reply #33

qi_master

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Quote from: donjitsu2


Comparing sprinters and martial artists isn't a good idea. The requirements for performing well in either of the two sports are so vastly different that such a comparison seems laughable.


Josh Skinner


That sounds to me as if you just called martial arts a sport. If so, please refrain from doing so again. This whole weight training things is pissing me off. In Okinawa (sp) weight training in some form has been used. Same for many kung fu styles, and always has it been used in shaolin temple kung fu. If they use it, and in my opinion are the best. Then everyone else should to if they have the chance. (As long as they learn it right.)

December 22, 2003, 07:10:15 AM
Reply #34

Ninja Kl0wn

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Quote from: donjitsu2
*****STRENGTH DOES NOT EQUAL MASS!*****

Sorry, but big muscles = dead meat when it comes to combat. When a muscle gains large amounts of mass it is usually due to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which basically adds a bunch of tissue that is more akin to scar tissue then actual muscle. And let us not forget that a smaller muscle has a higher strength to mass ratio than a larger one. Also training that induces this sarcoplasmic hypertrophy actually doesn't build the most sport specific type of strength for a martial artist. Strength training that is designed to specifically build muscle mass does help improve limit strength, it does not improve the rate of force development, or speed strength. Speed Strength is the most sport specific type of strength training. And though training one's limit strength is important to a martial artist, building that strength using a method that builds mass is a huge mistake. A better option would be to use nervous system efficiency training instead of the more common bodybuilding methods.


This entire paragraph seems as though you are trying to argue against a point I never even made. Allow me to quote myself "provided of course you have developed functional fitness as opposed to pretty boy body builder muscles" .  Please show me where I said strength = mass.  Matter of fact as we re-read my post once again, "as opposed to pretty boy body builder muscles", I think I said the same thing you're sitting there trying to lecture me on.


Quote
"The Art of Expressing the Human Body" is about Bruce Lee's training method. While Mr. Lee was a good martial artist, his training methods weren't exactly up to date (especially since during Lee's time the capitalist west knew nothing of the extensive - and more often than not, superior - strength training methods of the reclusive Soviets). Also, don't forget that Bruce Lee never weighed more than 165 lbs and when he did he hated it and cut back down to 130 lbs. His great strength and speed were not a result of large size. Had he been muscle bound (and this goes for any martial artist) he would never have been able to move as fast as he did.


Point? Regardless of how up to date his methods were, he is by far the best physical specimen I have seen, period.  It's as good a place as any for someone to start out their research.

Quote
Comparing sprinters and martial artists isn't a good idea. The requirements for performing well in either of the two sports are so vastly different that such a comparison seems laughable.


Would you like to explain how vastly different making a sudden explosive movement is from making a sudden explosive movement?
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December 22, 2003, 07:50:31 AM
Reply #35

Ninja Kl0wn

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Let's end this thread on a positive note and turn things over to the pros.  You can listen to them, or you can listen to the people here spit thier google search knowledge to you.


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December 22, 2003, 10:39:59 PM
Reply #36

donjitsu2

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Well, with the comment about sprinters having large legs made it seem as though that is what you were saying. Bruce Lee (while a great martial artist) wasn't exactly the supreme martial artist (though he had a great physique) many make him out to be. There were better martial artists before him, there art better martial artists now. My point was that Lee was fast because he spent a great deal of time training and avoided bodybuilding. But since you were never saying that big muscles are a prerequisite to strength or speed, my point was invalid to begin with. The type of explosive movements one needs to be a great sprinter aren't neccessarily the same type of explosive movements one needs to be a good martial artist.
 I simply get my info from from some of the most respected athletic trainers and coaches in the world. Like Tudor Bompa (Periodization), Charles Staley (The Science of Martial Arts Training), Pavel Tsatsouline (http://www.dragondoor.com), Scott Sonnon, and Steven Cotter. If you don't want to trust what I say, fine. I saw the link you posted. Many of the people I get my information from write for that site. I've said all I need to in this post.

qi_master: I simply refer to it as a "sport" as a quick manner of getting the idea across that Martial Arts are just as (if not more) demanding as any other athletic endevor. Sorry, but it was the the way I chose to put it. I hoped no one would ever think that I would place Martial Arts (a thing most of put our lives into) in the same arena as simple passtimes. I understand that the martial arts are (at least to myself and many others) a way of life - and not a game.