Author Topic: Going to join AMORC  (Read 29650 times)

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December 15, 2010, 08:27:40 AM
Reply #15

XIII

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They don't really accept you based on merit or worthiness, they just accept you if you apply. To be quite honest, the AMORC provides nothing you can't find for free, or even on this website.
<@kobok> And if you push hard enough, you can shove quite a lot into a chicken.

<@Trowa> When someone told him to jump off a cliff, he argued the semantic meanings of "jump" and "cliff", and then proceeded to do just that.

January 06, 2011, 10:20:45 AM
Reply #16

SecretApprentice

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Right now is not the best of times to join a magical order.  The AMORC is throwing out their temple furniture and burning their library books.  The Rosicrucian Fellowship is in the midst of being abandoned by its own members and leaders.  The Aurum Solis recently axed its North American memberbase and made a sudden change to Christianity, and while a new and very good Grand Master stepped up to lead after this occured, he has yet to set things back aright.  Most Golden Dawn offshoots are limping at best, and the two most well known of them, the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, will likely both soon have a rebellion on their hands against the grand masters.  The Servants of the Light (SOL) are still a tightly knit group, and by comparison are doing well, but their leader (Dolores) is beginning to deteriorate in health, and a change in the Director of Studies will become more likely as her ability to lead rituals lessens (which is already occuring).  In addition to that, they are quite expensive if you don't live in Europe.  I might also mention that SOL is a bit of a clustering of different pantheons and traditions, tied loosely together by Golden Dawn roots and Dion's Arthurian school.  The Builders of the Adytum have reached a point of stagnation, and are beginning to lose members.  They lack a powerful leader, and many of their own bishops feel that the Third Order is no longer accessible through the BOTA.  In addition, the BOTA was founded by a man who himself was still just a beginning student in the Golden Dawn, when he was kicked out by Moina for an apparent obsession with sexual practices.  Then, having no actual claim to initiatic authority anymore, he made some up by claiming to have spent three days training with St. Germain in person.  This is little more than a copy-catting of Anton Mesmer's true story, the main difference being that after three days with the Master of Magi, Mesmer had something to show for it.  Case, on the other hand, still possessed no knowledge to indicate that he knew anything beyond what he was taught by the Golden Dawn.  Thus, with this lie, he claimed authority to start an Order.  The Thelemites, and their massively disorganized school, has no clear leaders, no emerging powerhouses, and otherwise exist forever in the shadow of their founder Aleister Crowley, unable to add anything of meaning or permanency.  It also tends to be a collective of hormonal self-styled "rebels," following in whatever gothic or satanic fads may be trendy.  

Mr. Prophecy

I've enthusiastically read your articles and posts, finding them very interesting, starting to believe in what you subtly and implicitly claim: that you are someone who has more than a theoretical knowledge in occult matters.

But here I find this thread and get mostly surprised (in a bad way) to read such unethical and disrespectful comments you made regarding other Orders.

This brings me deep, sad disappointment. If the intention was to show that you and your new Order (that you openly advertised here) are better and more trustworthy, well, it had the contrary effect on me, and for a very simple reason: I learned by direct experience not to trust anyone who resources to bashing others in a way to exalt himself or his work.

I am too wary of all this, because I've seen it all before: "My master is better than you master", "My Order is more powerful/contacted/authorized than your Order", "Such and such orders are having trouble with members". I call this plain esoteric gossip. You could say that you have contacts and psychic powers that allowed you to know the "ďnsides" of these Orders. But nevertheless, it continues to be simple gossip...
 
Regarding specifically BOTA's founder Paul F. Case, you simply called him a liar. Is that what your Order teaches? If I undertake your teachings will I become in the end a person who diffamates people and disrespect other Orders?


January 06, 2011, 02:45:33 PM
Reply #17

trismegistos

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Considering Prophecy doesn't just accept students constantly nor charge a fee to join, I don't think he's bashing other Orders to try to draw people to his, as his Order (if you'd call it that?) doesn't make him money, and he only selects a limited amount of students.

It's difficult to read tone via text on the internet, but what you've proposed is not the vibe I got from Prophecy's post at all.

January 07, 2011, 03:24:13 AM
Reply #18

Akenu

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General rule is to never join any Order you don't know or can't see in....
About Prophecy's classes: Prophecy is a long-time and solid member of Veritas (not only member) and according to his articles he really CAN be trusted.

Problem with IIH is that you know the whole process from the beginning and you are looking too much forward into the future, that way you can't concentrate on the progress.

If you don't want to join any Order or on-line class I recommend to start practicioning Wicca as their ritual work is nearly on daily basis and you will still be busy and feeling the progress.

January 07, 2011, 04:21:46 AM
Reply #19

SecretApprentice

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trismegistos,

Certainly the "tone" thing causes great misunderstandings in internet forums.

But getting strictly to the written words of Prophecy, we read that:
- It's not advisable to enter any Order
- Paul Foster Case was a liar
- Aurum Solis and SOL are almost good, but are expensive
- The divine science organization is good and advisable

I'm not here to judge and condemn anyone's words, but I've seen too much of some things, and whenever I see them, or think I see them again, a red alert flashes in my mind.

Well, the fact is, unfortunately, that a person can be a great "magician" and still have a very big ego. Do not be deluded about this.

And "ego" do not necessarily needs money or number of students, but eagerly wants to fulfill the egoistic desire for "power" and/or for the group it belongs/runs to be above others. It even judges others in terms of having or not having "power" or siddhas, or being or not in any high "grade" in Golden Dawn's hierarchy system. These things, unfortunately again, do not guarantee anything in terms of real spiritual advancement.

I'm not saying that's the case of Prophecy, because simply I do not know. He's obviously only expressing his opinions on the subject, but as he is a teacher on this site, his opinion may have relevance to many people, and here's where my sadness begins. For me, accusing the founder of an Order of being a liar, and at the same time, offering his own Order/organization, is a very, very strange behavior coming from a teacher.

Thank you

January 07, 2011, 05:06:20 AM
Reply #20

ChezNips

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Wait a minute, a great magickian often DOES have a big ego...look at McGreggor Mathews, Aleister Crowley for 2 examples.  The ITH is one method that advises to control the ego but its not the only way to be a magickian.  I think you have your set of beliefs and practices and then judge people according to that...do you not think Prophecy hasn't been attacked and called a liar too and starting a cult?  If you recognise that it is his opinion, can't you just leave it at that?
some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

January 07, 2011, 05:51:54 AM
Reply #21

Akenu

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Actually, we all have some ego... Else we would accept every idea that anyone throws at us...
The real reason for "destroying the ego" is to analyze other people's ideas and accept the correct ones even if they are mutually exclusive to our own opinions. I also have never read that SecretApprentice would verbally assault Prophecy, it was his private suggestion that he shared with us and I also think that this suggestion also contains some good point for all of us, Prophecy not an exception.

ChezNips, it can be shocking, but Aleister had a complete control over his ego. Yes, his practices were a bit weird and his acting good look like an act of egoistic child, but he was always able to talk about it and to learn from constructive criticism.
His life was a life of bored child which was born in riches and of a drug experimentator, but also of a great magician. Maybe the greatest magician of 20th century (most famous for sure). As you see, he was a lot of things, but never egoist.

January 07, 2011, 05:59:02 AM
Reply #22

SecretApprentice

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Wait a minute, a great magickian often DOES have a big ego...look at McGreggor Mathews, Aleister Crowley for 2 examples.  The ITH is one method that advises to control the ego but its not the only way to be a magickian.  I think you have your set of beliefs and practices and then judge people according to that...do you not think Prophecy hasn't been attacked and called a liar too and starting a cult?  If you recognise that it is his opinion, can't you just leave it at that?

I'm sorry, but one mistake do not justify another. IMHO, if he's been called a liar, calling others liars too make him the same as his accusers.

And surely I could leave it at that, but Prophecy is a teacher and article writer in this site, and therefore his opinions have an influence on many.

I wouldn't have taken the pains of entering this forum and writing these critical posts, and risking being misinterpreted or even hated for questioning a person of authority in this group, just for amusement. The question is important, and involves ethics.


January 07, 2011, 06:06:43 AM
Reply #23

Dea

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To be fair, you seemed to have missed the good deal of his post explaining just why he said what he said. It's not like he just said "They're all bad, he's a liar, join me instead!", he gave actual reasons. This isn't a matter of ethics, just facts.

He also didn't say it was bad to join an order at all, just that right now isn't the best time to do so (which, going from the rest of his post, seems entirely logical).

January 07, 2011, 08:27:42 PM
Reply #24

NathanE

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Not to be bashing the order I am part of; I have been in AMORC since before my first deployment in 2008. Three years later I followed little to almost none of there curriculum due to the fact of systems crashing or being non-responsive on there end. How ever I have perused studies without it and been part of two study groups and most of there initiates are barely learning what I accomplished through determination and tenacity what they may take up to five years. I still show up at there functions and am considered "accepted" but not truly because my beliefs do not coincide with there ideals of certain things. They have strayed from there original path and if possible I would like to to either go back to it or... At least die and rise back to a more pure pursuit of the arts.

Sincerest,
 NathannE

PS: they do have a good potlucks at least.
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January 08, 2011, 12:38:04 PM
Reply #25

trismegistos

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Well Prophecy wasn't lying.  My friend from Chicago started taking the written tests on the Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception, the preliminary work needed to join the Rosicrucian Fellowship, and when he called them they said they were "short staffed", so it goes along with exactly what Prophecy stated, that the members are abandoning the Rosicrucian Fellowship.

January 08, 2011, 12:45:52 PM
Reply #26

Prophecy

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Very good.

SecretApprentice is correct.  It is a strong thing to call someone a liar with nothing other than anecdotal support, and since I can provide no immediately tangible proof of the other statements, they amount to "gossip."  Likewise, I showed a great lack of tact in promoting my own efforts on the wings of speaking ill about others.  I should have made a separate thread at a later time about it. 

Still, though, my essential statements stand.  I shall try to address them in point:
Quote
It's not advisable to enter any Order

I do say that "now is not the best of times" for doing so.  Anticipating that anyone reading such would then wonder exactly why, I have endeavored to give a few illustrations.  However, I end the examples by recommending waiting about three years before considering different options, and even recommend two Orders (SOL and AS) for those looking to join a magical Order immediately.

I recommend caution in considering joining Orders, as do many other magicians.  The only difference is that I provided reasons why, and gave specifics.  I am sorry, but if you are a magical Order, then you claim the right to guide hopeful aspirants on the path to the Divine Light (since the orders I mentioned all claim to be hermetic in paradigm).  Claiming that right, which is the greatest of responsibilities, they must be subject to the most severe criticisms when they waiver or behave immaturely.  Considering the incredible responsibility they claim to take up, I think I am in fact far too gentle in my criticisms.  Also, I believe it is the responsibility of those who are aware of the shortcomings of various groups to make them known to those considering pursuing those groups.  To illustrate this, I believed it was my responsibility, seeing a flaw in the way these Orders were operating, to point them out to those reading this thread.  You, in turn, believed it was your responsibility, seeing the flaws in the way I handled the situation, to point them out to those reading this thread.  To say that I should have remained silent about them is to say that you should have remained silent about me.

Quote
Aurum Solis and SOL are almost good, but are expensive

Yes.  Those pursuing these two Orders will likely agree with me, granting of course that expensiveness is subjective to the size of one's pocket, and mine is considerably miniature. 

Quote
The divine science organization is good and advisable

Until someone holds it to a great responsibility, and therefore subjects it to needed criticism, that appears to be the case.  Hitherto, I've received no complaints.  I am certain that as time advances and more people join, they will find things they disagree with, and will make those things known, so that those considering joining us will be more thoroughly educated on our ups and downs. 

Quote
Paul Foster Case was a liar

This seems to be the real point of the current problem.  To understand my own view of the man, you must first understand something about me.  I absolutely despise dissension, and those who further it.  To me, beginning an Order without clear consent is a great crime.  However, claiming to have received such consent from one of the Great Masters directly, is tantamount to blasphemy if untrue.  Thus, those who claim as much must know that they are purposely opening themselves up to the greatest and harshest criticisms, and rightly so, for they are claiming divine authority now.  Is this not the proper way of things, that the greater the responsibility, and the greater one places one's self in the position to do harm, the greater one should be judged? 

Now my accusations against Mr. Case may be misplaced.  I gladly admit that I have never met the Master R., St. Germain,  and so am unable to clarify the situation.  Instead, therefore, I was forced to resort to what faculties of observation anyone can reasonably possess in this situation, and through the observation of what appeared to be incongruities to my mind, resolved that the claim was not to be trusted.  Here, briefly stated, would be those reasons:

-Paul Case was terminated from the Golden Dawn by Moina Mathers on account of his continuing dissemination of magical sex practices after having be thoroughly warned.  The inability to adhere to such a simple request from the Grand Master, who must be respected at least in form if not in heart, demonstrates the kind of persona that is contradictory to what the Masters allegedly look for in direct pupils.  Assuming that Mr. Case was familiar with the idea of St. Germain via the writings of HPB and Mrs. Bailey, which he is attested as having been familiar with, we must delegate that according to those same writings, via the teachings of Djwhal Khul on the matter, the Masters choose disciples from amongst those who have used more earthly vehicles to prove their unwavering and unquestioning loyalty to the hierarchy in which such a person may be placed.  Loyalty to the hierarchy of a Mystery School is, incidentally, specifically cited.  It seemed strange to me, then, that a person who failed such a basic requirement would be especially selected to meet the Master in person, which those same writings attest to as being the most unlikely of attainments, saying that even the best of disciples are likely still far away from such a blessing. 

-Paul Case claims to have spent three days alone with St. Germain, wherein he went through an array of mystical experiences and learned his arcana.  This immediately reminded me of an identical story, wherein Anton Mesmer recieved notification from The Count that they were to spend three days together studying.  This story would have been virtually unknown by the time Case founded his Order, but almost certainly would have been encountered by him in his earlier years of occult study.  In form, the stories are identical.  There is one major difference, though: Mesmer emerged from those three days a changed man, filled with occult knowledge he had never been able to grasp on his own, and then gave to the world a unique and powerful arcana.  Case emerged from this supposed encounter claiming basically the same, but never delivered anything more than rehashed Golden Dawn material.  This leads us to the next consideration.

-Case claimed to have received corrected teachings from St. Germain, but the material of the BOTA is a simple replica of the Golden Dawn teachings.  Now this would have been excusable, or rather would have slid by unthought of, were it not for the fact that a considerable amount of Case's supposedly inspired teachings are the exact same teachings as MacGregor Mathers.  More specifically, I should say, they contain mostly things that were created by, discovered by, or put together by Mathers.  Case's teachings are dated by using much terminology and attributions that Mathers actually coined.  This would not have bothered me in the least, and I would have forever held Case in great regard, had I been able to uncover even the most remote scrap of honor paid to Mathers for his contributions to Case's system.  However, no matter where I looked, it was nowhere to be found.  His "official" mini-biography (featured in many of his books), in fact, hardly so much as mentions his training in the Golden Dawn, which is where the Tarot attributions that became so central to Case all came from.  This seems like a mere instance of someone trying to ride another person's ingenuity, and giving absolutely no credit where credit was clearly and greatly due.  Instead, all credit was given to an unprovable and strangely familiar account of meeting St. Germain.  And even this I might believe, but it would require that Germain learned his entire arcana regarding the Tarot from MacGregor Mathers, and unless the common notion of St. Germain is entirely incorrect, I find this difficult to believe.

- Finally, we may acknowledge a certain inconsistency between Case and others who seem to have met St. Germain in a student-teacher fashion.  If we look at Madame Blavatsky, we see a woman possessed of incredible depth and unique insight, who provided the world with teachings hitherto concealed in the most remote holy places.  In addition, she could perform incredible miracles, instantaneous healings, and most especially materializations of the grandest type.  If we look at Anton Mesmer, he gave to the world a unique teaching in the west, that of Animal Magnetism, replete with its own methods and approaches.  By this, Memser performed tens of thousands of healings; so great was his healing power that even being on his property would cure people of the greatest ailments.  To this, I know a saint who lives overseas, who has charged me with always keeping his name secret except for from my most direct students, who has met St. Germain in person.  Yet this man, even before meriting such an incredible meeting, was able to be in multiple places at once, to walk through walls, turn invisible, convert into a body of pure light, and other such great feats.  Then we have Paul Case, who seems to be a good occult scholar, but nothing of particular note, and who has none of the characteristics of these others.  It simply seemed out of place to me. 

-All of this, of course, requests what the motive might be.  Why fabricate something like this, after all?  If indeed it is a fabrication, and a lie of the most severe kind, then it may have been excusable in Case's mind in want of some kind of authority.  If you begin an Order, your students expect some kind of basis for your authority before they accept you as a teacher.  Claiming to have been given permission by St. Germain was the perfect claim: if accepted, it establishes unquestionable authority.  However, it is simultaneously a matter of faith, since no proof could ever be furbished for it.  Thus, those not believing in it can be safely relegated to the "closed minded" by those who do believe, and so you have a great foundation for an Order.


These are my reasons.  I have offered a lengthy response only because I think others, after the questions you brought up, may have been curious of my reasons for calling someone a liar.  Likewise for you, since you seem to have enjoyed my articles, I would not wish you to relegate me to that group of people who throw baseless or unreasonable accusations. 

Following on my accusation of Case, however, I must willingly admit that I am far from an expert on the man's life story.  My criticisms are based simply on what stories have been told to me about the man, and what I was able to read in a story by BOTA about him.  I could have received poor information, in which case it should be known that I am not at all attached to the idea that Case must be a liar; I will very willingly and publicly change my opinion, if more suitable arguments for his validity can be provided, and if those inconsistencies I pointed out can be thoroughly redressed.  Then, from hence forward, I would always mention his validity, should the issue ever arise. 

January 08, 2011, 05:06:05 PM
Reply #27

SecretApprentice

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Prophecy

I thank you for explaining your point. I realize now that your sources on Case's bio must be different from mine, for they tell a slightly different story:

- Case discovered by himself, through study and meditation, the same Tarot attributions and correspondences the Golden Dawn taught, and published them in the maganize The Word, in 1916. He couldn't have had access to the work of Mathers at the time, once the complete attributions were only taught to advanced Order members.

- This attracted the attention of the Order Alpha et Omega (which was not the Golden Dawn, since the Order was no more, being dissolved into various independent branches), and Case was invited to join the Order (at the post of SubPraemonstrator) in 1918. At that time he had mostly all of the BOTA curriculum in mind, included the present name of the School. In 1920, Case was serving as Third Adept.

- Moina Mathers invited Case to leave the Order after receiving letters from members of the Outer School telling stories about Case lecturing on (not practising) sexual magic in the Lodge. Case didn't receive orders and then disrespect them. He was sumarily expelled without apellation, based only on reports made by letter and no close verification at all.

- The encounters with Master Saint Germain happened during two weeks. Case's mission was to establish a School suitable for the modern times, and Case's ability to write in a straightforward and clear manner made him eligible for the task. The reports tell that Case received by "direct transmission" from the Master not the whole lessons, but the exact way to present them most effectively for the West. The BOTA curriculum offers a very well paced advancement, but perfectly suitable for the average western man. Bardon, for instance, offers a system much more demanding in terms of practice, and SOL requires much more knowledge on various aspects such as mythology and ancient pantheons.

- As for "showing something" out of his encounters with a Master, I personally find this question of minor importance, since that even if Case had really received some siddhi, I'm certain he would never be showing them off, apart from the closest circle of students. So we have nothing to rely on in terms of acknowledgement of these magical powers.

We end up with two versions of the same story, and the only guarantee we have is the word of those who told them.

As for the remaining topics, your answer was perfectly satisfatory to me, and settled the whole question quite well .

You (and your brother Veos) continue to have my respect and admiration.

Thank you

January 08, 2011, 07:26:38 PM
Reply #28

Patanjali

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Prophecy knows what he's talking about, and Paul Case is a liar.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 07:59:52 PM by Nevernever »

January 08, 2011, 07:48:04 PM
Reply #29

Iatros

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I think everything is (was) quite resolved.
"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa