Author Topic: Proof  (Read 642981 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

July 01, 2010, 01:29:34 PM
Reply #30

Vilhjalmr

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 609
  • Karma:
    2
    • View Profile
cool, i do too, what state?
I live in Texas, so if you want to black out the sun here too, it'd be pretty cool. :biggrin:
Etwas auf Deutsch

July 01, 2010, 01:29:44 PM
Reply #31

Emerald Mushroom

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 562
  • Karma:
    1
  • Personal Text
    Your Mom.
    • View Profile
well if you lived relatively close to me it would be cool to have an occult buddy. Seeing as how i practice in secret and what not.

but anyway. What system of magick do you use?

also searching for the sake of progress of this thread ignore all off topic replys the trolls die when not fed.
Knowledge is power. Guard it well.

July 01, 2010, 01:33:24 PM
Reply #32

Kichara

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 982
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Row, Row, Row Your Boat
    • View Profile
    • Check it Out.
Quote
A lot of occultists seem to think they do not have to be held accountable for their claims. Why is that?

They can't really do anything.
Hey, whats up?

Please vote in my poll:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12212.0

July 01, 2010, 01:36:57 PM
Reply #33

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Back to proof.
You want proof? Spin a freekin psiwheel under a glass. You want more proof? Practice a few years and become clairsentient. You want more proof? Travel the universe in a body of light. You want more... well, the point being alot of these things can really only be proven to yourself. You want to understand the laws of magick, reality and the universe, the "ALL", in a way that is dependably and "scientifically" repeatable? We all do. This is the Divine Science. The Great Work. Achieving that is becoming like a god, and, well, it just isn't and shouldn't be easy.

I've tried the psi wheel stuff, didn't work. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe it..... can't be done.

But psiwheels have so many variables. Even an unbalance psi wheel can move. Vibrations in the desk and whatnot.

Sliding a quarter across a table..... yeah, a bit harder. Or sliding one across pavement. Yup.

If it can be done...... the people making the claims should be the ones doing the proof.

"Hey, I can do a double backflip from stand still. Want proof? Do it yourself!" -> makes no sense.

[qupte]You want mages to make magick public?
This is one I've often thought about. The thing about demonstration of skill not moving that many people to practice is, I guess, valid. However, there cannot be enough teachers out there. Hell I'd like to see spiritual practice (at least in theory) being taught in SCHOOLS. I think 3 major factors here are 1) as someone mentioned, most people claiming to be "psychic" or whatnot and actually just cheap hustlers,[/quote]

Hence why scientists must investigate them.

Quote
2) teaching monkeys how to use guns is a bad idea

And teaching humans to use them would be better?

 
Quote
and 3) I believe the "powers that be" simply don't want to see another generation of hippies meditating, doing yoga, astral travelling and NOT SPENDING MONEY.

The powers that be can suck my fire balls.

Quote
But, I believe, IMHO, that the world will eventually be forced to realize that not all our problems can be solved by base material technology and a build more, bigger, better mindset. Then, perhaps, more and more people will be driven to look inside themselves and not only find proof, but talk about it.

Take a look at the gulf of Mexico recently?

Quote
I hope this has been on topic, Searching, I kinda skimmed over the thread.
Peace and Love
~Pulse

Seeing as how this discussion started in the speed of magic thread, it's all good :)

cool, i do too, what state?

well if you lived relatively close to me it would be cool to have an occult buddy. Seeing as how i practice in secret and what not.

but anyway. What system of magick do you use?

also searching for the sake of progress of this thread ignore all off topic replys the trolls die when not fed.

It's nothing personal, it's just that since I was a kid I was taught never to reveal my location over the internet, especially when you are talking to a person who can curse you!

I mostly do qigong. Tried to get into IIH for a little while, but it wasn't really doing it for me (karma????) so I'm kind of between systems at the moment.

I live in Texas, so if you want to black out the sun here too, it'd be pretty cool. :biggrin:

You could do texas as well. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure the news will cover it!

Quote
A lot of occultists seem to think they do not have to be held accountable for their claims. Why is that?

They can't really do anything.

So eh, what about the people who can, yet still make the claims?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 01:44:40 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 01:38:34 PM
Reply #34

Wren

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1711
  • Karma:
    32
    • View Profile
Have people been saying that they can cure AIDS here?

July 01, 2010, 01:40:43 PM
Reply #35

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Have people been saying that they can cure AIDS here?

I ran into someone who had a friend who was HIV positive, did a LBRP along with the middle pillar rite on this guy, the guy went back to the doctors and he was HIV negative. They were stunned, and said it must have been a false positive. They tested him periodically over the following months, with nothing.

My point is that claims of that magnitude have been made by many occultists, including but not limited to some of the ones here. Yet proof has never been something that has been.... valued. And I'd like to know why. Especially when such healing abilities would be, well a Godsend.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 01:44:52 PM
Reply #36

Kichara

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 982
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Row, Row, Row Your Boat
    • View Profile
    • Check it Out.
Quote
So eh, what about the people who can, yet still make the claims?

The ones I know. They have other stuff to do. Lives to live. Other neat and fun and not-so-fun magical stuff to deal with.

They just have to decide which things they are going to do with their time.

Some are just nice and don't want to say "I don't have time for you, I have alot of other stuff to deal with."

There are more complex answers I could give, but I am trying to enjoy a 3-egg omelet I just made.
Hey, whats up?

Please vote in my poll:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12212.0

July 01, 2010, 01:47:38 PM
Reply #37

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Quote
So eh, what about the people who can, yet still make the claims?

The ones I know. They have other stuff to do. Lives to live. Other neat and fun and not-so-fun magical stuff to deal with.

They just have to decide which things they are going to do with their time.

Some are just nice and don't want to say "I don't have time for you, I have alot of other stuff to deal with."

They don't have 30 seconds to read what's on my mind? They don't have an hour to get a camera, shoot in one shot, go outside, wear short sleeves, drop a quarter on the pavement, back up, zoom the camera out, slide the quarter across, then upload it onto youtube?

People write about how effortless these abilities can be at a certain stage, yet they act like they gotta get some zoning permit to build a house.

Quote
There are more complex answers I could give, but I am trying to enjoy a 3-egg omelet I just made.

I'm eating Chinese takeout that just arrived. It's getting cold as I type these messages. Yet here I am.....
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 01:53:49 PM
Reply #38

Kichara

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 982
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Row, Row, Row Your Boat
    • View Profile
    • Check it Out.
Quote
I'm eating Chinese takeout that just arrived. It's getting cold as I type these messages. Yet here I am.....

This discussion must mean more to you than me. I don't like cold omelets. You should go ahead and take a break to eat.

Quote
They don't have 30 seconds to read what's on my mind? They don't have an hour to get a camera, shoot in one shot, go outside, wear short sleeves, drop a quarter on the pavement, back up, zoom the camera out, slide the quarter across, then upload it onto youtube?

No to the camera one. The reading the mind thing it seems to be a proximity thing. They just don't like doing much over the internet. In person it happens often enough.
Hey, whats up?

Please vote in my poll:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12212.0

July 01, 2010, 01:55:03 PM
Reply #39

Saer

  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 480
  • Karma:
    3
    • View Profile
Quote
So eh, what about the people who can, yet still make the claims?

The ones I know. They have other stuff to do. Lives to live. Other neat and fun and not-so-fun magical stuff to deal with.

They just have to decide which things they are going to do with their time.

Some are just nice and don't want to say "I don't have time for you, I have alot of other stuff to deal with."

They don't have 30 seconds to read what's on my mind? They don't have an hour to get a camera, shoot in one shot, go outside, wear short sleeves, drop a quarter on the pavement, back up, zoom the camera out, slide the quarter across, then upload it onto youtube?

People write about how effortless these abilities can be at a certain stage, yet they act like they gotta get some zoning permit to build a house.

Quote
There are more complex answers I could give, but I am trying to enjoy a 3-egg omelet I just made.

I'm eating Chinese takeout that just arrived. It's getting cold as I type these messages. Yet here I am.....

After reading all this complaining, the only suggestion I have for you is to ask, not for proof, but to come and learn directly from them and experience in person exactly who they are and what they have to teach. I'm speaking mostly of Prophecy here. I know that at one point (or probably still does) he had an entire house full of people who were learning under him and his brother, and achieving real results. Perhaps you could ask to study under him for a period of time. If you are truly interested in validating what he has written and achieving real results, then I don't see why you wouldn't be interested in such an opportunity. If you are not willing, then you do not deserve the proof you are asking for.
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

July 01, 2010, 01:57:05 PM
Reply #40

Kichara

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 982
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Row, Row, Row Your Boat
    • View Profile
    • Check it Out.
as far as I know, he isn't accepting students for a while. But it doesn't hurt to ask.

I'm going out. I'll check back later.
Hey, whats up?

Please vote in my poll:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12212.0

July 01, 2010, 02:00:42 PM
Reply #41

Ekstatikos

  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 411
  • Karma:
    20
  • Personal Text
    "It was ME! I was the turkey all along...!"
    • View Profile
Couldn't spin a psiwheel? It's not subjective. You're doin it wrong. I can tell you from personal experience that there is nothing more affirming (and downright spine-tingling) than the first time you experience the distinct knowledge that you are in full control of the speed and direction of a psiwheel, above and beyond all chance of coincidence or crosswind. And you KNOW its YOU. Keep at it, its a great boundary to break down.

And to be honest I think your mindset is contributing. I could show you a video of a guy doing a backflip, and a video of a guy spinning multiple psiwheels, and you would automatically assume the latter to be faked, although the former could just as easily be cheap camera trickery. This is why proving things to yourself is generally better. If you want people to start showing proof then lead the way brother; work harder, spin psiwheels, read minds, then go out and SHOW people what you can do. Those who are interested will want to LEARN, and to TEACH is the final and ultimate reward. (NOTE: be careful though, spinning a psiwheel in front of an audience is way way harder for reasons I'm not gonna go into here, lets just say most people simply don't WANT to believe in the paranormal, the world is confusing and scary enough as it is).

So why are occultists making claims of levitating in bliss and curing diseases and not doing it in public? Good question. Keep asking. I feel like some grand magus or illuminati general is gonna tell you not to meddle in things not meant to be pondered by mere mortals lol  :biggrin:   Nice thread.
~ Io Daimon Eriounes Theon ~

"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much!" ~ Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis

To Know, To Dare, To Will, To Be Silent, and To Liberate

July 01, 2010, 02:01:40 PM
Reply #42

Searching

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1278
  • Karma:
    16
  • Personal Text
    Just Sayin'
    • View Profile
Quote
I'm eating Chinese takeout that just arrived. It's getting cold as I type these messages. Yet here I am.....

This discussion must mean more to you than me. I don't like cold omelets. You should go ahead and take a break to eat.

Quote
They don't have 30 seconds to read what's on my mind? They don't have an hour to get a camera, shoot in one shot, go outside, wear short sleeves, drop a quarter on the pavement, back up, zoom the camera out, slide the quarter across, then upload it onto youtube?

No to the camera one. The reading the mind thing it seems to be a proximity thing. They just don't like doing much over the internet. In person it happens often enough.

I watched the film The Exorcist last night.

There's a scene in which the priest first meets the demon. He sits next to it, and then the drawer opens without anyone touching it. The priest asks, "did you do that?" And the demon glares at him smiling. The priest closes the drawer and says. "Okay, do it again. Come on, do it again." And the demon says, "in time." The demon never opened the drawer again.....

Then the demon later says that the priest's mother is in the girl's body with him. The priest says, "if that's true, then you should know her maiden name." The demon says nothing, and the priest says, "well, what's her maiden name?" Then the demon projectile vomits into his face.

I laughed really hard at that point. It's just like the occult community now. People make all kinds of claims, but they would rather vomit than support them. And whenever something happens, they take credit for it while never offering to repeat the action to show they can do it.

Just some thoughts.

After reading all this complaining,

I take offense to that.

Since when is it complaining to ask for proof of a claim?

Do not people ask for proof that medicine works before they take it?

Quote
the only suggestion I have for you is to ask, not for proof, but to come and learn directly from them and experience in person exactly who they are and what they have to teach. I'm speaking mostly of Prophecy here. I know that at one point (or probably still does) he had an entire house full of people who were learning under him and his brother, and achieving real results. Perhaps you could ask to study under him for a period of time. If you are truly interested in validating what he has written and achieving real results, then I don't see why you wouldn't be interested in such an opportunity. If you are not willing, then you do not deserve the proof you are asking for.

I am a full time college student. I am trying to salvage what little future I can. I have limited funds, most of which are going to college.

I guess I always could abandon my material life and go study magic..... that's a pretty big leap of faith. I'd have more success going off to become a priest.

I've talked to Prophecy. I don't want to make public a private conversation, but basically he is not willing to provide what I am searching for.

So.....

The reason I chose the major I have is so I can have time to study the occult on the side, without school getting too much in the way. I don't have time to gallivant across the country chasing wild goose chases when I have no more proof for one than I have ever had for every fraud I've come across in the past.

Step into my shoes. Thanks.

You want me to abandon what little I have left of my material life to chase someone with nothing to show for it? Then put something up. Or shut up.

Couldn't spin a psiwheel? It's not subjective. You're doin it wrong. I can tell you from personal experience that there is nothing more affirming (and downright spine-tingling) than the first time you experience the distinct knowledge that you are in full control of the speed and direction of a psiwheel, above and beyond all chance of coincidence or crosswind. And you KNOW its YOU. Keep at it, its a great boundary to break down.

I spent two years skateboarding. Broke my collarbone doing it. I could never learn how to ollie. It's the most basic skateboarding trick there is. The foundation for most of them. Could never do it. From my own experience, it's impossible. I've read countless techniques for doing it. It's impossible.

But I know it is possible because I've seen others do it. People do it regularly. People do it enough to know it's possible.

Quote
And to be honest I think your mindset is contributing. I could show you a video of a guy doing a backflip, and a video of a guy spinning multiple psiwheels, and you would automatically assume the latter to be faked, although the former could just as easily be cheap camera trickery. This is why proving things to yourself is generally better. If you want people to start showing proof then lead the way brother; work harder, spin psiwheels, read minds, then go out and SHOW people what you can do. Those who are interested will want to LEARN, and to TEACH is the final and ultimate reward. (NOTE: be careful though, spinning a psiwheel in front of an audience is way way harder for reasons I'm not gonna go into here, lets just say most people simply don't WANT to believe in the paranormal, the world is confusing and scary enough as it is).

I know enough about the mechanics of a poorly built house + a desk sitting on top of the spot where the ceiling fan is on the floor above it to know that tables move, and psiwheels, by the very nature of their design, are supposed to move with as little force as possible. Vibrating superstrings could be making the psi wheel move. Slide a penny across the pavement. Pennies don't move on their own.

(in case you haven't figured out, I made a psi wheel and put it under a big class container on my desk.... my desk was vibrating.... both floors of my house constantly vibrated, because there was a crawlspace underneath, and my house was a rickety piece of crap. Everywhere I put it the psiwheel moved on its own, so I took it outside, and could never move it)

Quote
Good question. Keep asking. I feel like some grand magus or illuminati general is gonna tell you not to meddle in things not meant to be pondered by mere mortals

LOLOLOLOLOL
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 02:09:13 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 02:04:15 PM
Reply #43

Wren

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1711
  • Karma:
    32
    • View Profile
I'm not saying that I can cure HIV here, but it seems to me that your magician acquaintance wasn't using the LBRP or MPR like they are supposed to. The LBRP is a rite of divine sovereignty, so doing it "on" someone is very counter-intuitive. Same for the MPR. The more reasonable approach is to do the LBRP and MPR then circulate the light through the patient like Regardie suggests. Use stuff like that to sift through claims.

July 01, 2010, 02:06:29 PM
Reply #44

Iatros

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 1475
  • Karma:
    77
    • View Profile
Proof? For truth? What is Truth? What is proof for It, and why are you after it so badly? What that we create can act as more proof than whatever you can muster?

Any video that can be created can also be faked. People have seen illusionists make the statue of liberty disappear, and witnessed a hypnotist teleport by freezing their perception. On the other hand, seemingly miraculous things have happened through simple prayer, and hearsay of odd magical coincidence is readily available. You can never be sure which is which; asking for a recording is asking to be fooled. The self-respecting will not make fool themselves by thinking that they will prove anything, and the ones who would fool you are giving false proof.

It's like that saying that I keep hearing tossed around.

At the beginning, magic is magic, and it's effects are magical. At some point farther along, magic is no longer magic, and it's effects are neither magical, nor likely extant. But in the end, magic is magic, and it's effects are magical.

I have also seen the idea of spirality used to describe this progression. You might need proof, then not need proof, and then need proof again, or you might believe in magic, then not, and then believe in it again. This can apply to God, a political philosophy, or anything else. What is important is that you are not merely travelling in a circle, but rather upwards along a spiral-- your progress is only apparent through yourself, and the utility of that progress is wholly dependent on how you manifest and use your progress.

Hear this: this is another excuse, and one of many more to come. Magic, psi, and everything else here is false in most ways, but true above all. I have "proved" magic to myself; I have demonstrated macro-psychokinesis to myself in ways that I can't deny with any stretch of logic...

...but I did it in the past. We cannot know the present during it's instant occurrence. I could have made mistakes. I could have hallucinated. It could have been a dream. My practices could be, above all, false. If they are true, however, everything is a dream, and the world that I can touch is just as much a lie as any spirit's whisper or any object's movement. At any given point in time, nothing is real, but everything could be.

I do not practice the occult for "truth" or "falsehood;" I cannot be sure and I do not care. I do it for "wisdom" and "understanding," and I "know" that I am successful.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 02:16:32 PM by Animus »
"And in this lies my honour and my reward, - / That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; / And it drinks me while I drink it." - Almustafa