Author Topic: Proof  (Read 592137 times)

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July 01, 2010, 11:48:55 AM
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I think the time to make this thread has been long overdue, we've encroached on the speed of magic thread far too long, many apologies.

Please, anyone feel free to respond to any of the issues raised.

Full discussion started about page 2 here: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,16019.0.html

The last post from the discussion:

Yes, you missed it. Do you honestly expect them to waste their whole lives away handing you something for free that you have not earned, have no right to, yet still demand and expect because... why do you believe that you are entitled to someone else providing you proof for something?

It's not just me. I think that EVERYONE on this path of occult should have some proof. Just like ANYTHING else. I've dedicated my life to this, I've already made many decisions that have irrevocably changed my life for this path. And yet still I have no proof. There are others who are just like me, toiling away. And then there are people out there who are pretty much declaring they have these abilities, and when asked to demonstrate them respond with, "who do you think you are to ask anything of me?"

Who are we? We are people on the same path, striving for something we can't see. Then you claim not only that you've seen it, but can show it, and you don't.

I ask who do you think YOU are to go around talking about stuff when you have no intention of backing it up.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Why is it that metaphysics is the ONLY area in which that is not the case...?

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They get paid for that. Kobok and Prophecy were never paid for their time in doing the classes, at least not that I ever heard. I've never been paid for my time on these forums trying to assist people through posting. I was never paid for the few times that I attempted to "prove" metaphysics to specific people over the internet or in person.

People are paid once they prove they can do something. There are thousands of people who play ball all the time hoping to go pro, but they don't go pro, because they don't have the skills to go pro. No one is paid unless they offer proof that they can do something.

Except, for some reason, in metaphysics and, to a certain extent, the martial arts.

There are lots of skateboarders who don't get paid, living from meal to meal, dollar to dollar, hoping to make it big. But you have to show your skills before that happens. Why do people in the metaphysics think it should be the other way around?

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But then, have you asked Prophecy or Kobok to show you anything? Who have you asked to give you proof? (I'm one of those types of people you don't like, who will not attempt to provide proof when asked)

I have asked Prophecy, not Kobok. I got the same response from Prophecy as I have heard from other people, and from the posts I've seen of Kobok, he will say the same thing (and in fact has said the same thing in past posts).

Again, I don't know why people do not give proof when asked. If you make a claim, you must give proof. Otherwise you have no right to make a claim. If I claim I can do a backflip, it is well within other peoples' rights to demand I do a backflip. But I can't do a backflip, so I don't claim it.

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Well, first of all, that's not quite how it ended. The majority of people who went through the course were very stoked and talking about how much they had learned. No, that doesn't prove anything to *you* who never went through the course, but it proves something to those who did go through the course (unless I'm misinterpreting what they're saying, or they're lying or deluding themselves).

The point is that at one point someone did do what you wanted, and still you're bashing it because it's not happening right here and now with you.

I'm not bashing. I'm criticizing. Of course something should be happening here and now. If it works, it should work here and now. I can go on youtube right now and see people doing a slam dunk, or an ollie on a skateboard. I can find people who not only actively demonstrate it, but who have learned to do the method themselves successfully. All right here, in the present.

I cannot do so with metaphysics. None. At all. If you know of someone who can and does, please point them out.

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The only thing that tells me is that you need to get out more and go to the places and people who ARE doing what you want them to do, because there are people and organizations doing it.

http://www.psychic-junkie.com/psychic-schools.html I can't speak for how credibly any of them might be, but they exist, just like you wanted them to :)

lol, will check them out.

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Of course this is what's being done. But the opposite is also being done. There ARE people who give demonstrations whenever they feel like it

.....

 
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(and no, you're not entitled to one just because you want one).


This needs to stop. Now.

You make it sound like I am some whining child. I am not. You know it.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Period. That is now it works. It isn't "who are you to demand proof of me" it's "who are you to make claims without proof". It is the people making groundless claims that are the children on the school yard saying, "oh yeah, well, I can do it better than you, but I am not because I don't feel like it."

You, and other people in the occult community, attempt to trivialize both my own, and the skeptic community at large, arguments by likening them to a child. It is pathetic, and an attempt to get out of accountability.

It needs to stop.

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They DO show their skills. And in the end it is STILL the responsibility of the one who wants to learn to prove it to themself because all of the proof from other people is never give the potential student real abilities.

Who are these people? Seriously? You keep talking about all these people giving demonstrations.... who are they? I have Prophecy, and Kobok, neither of them are interested, I have the group you linked me, which I am in the process of investigating.

You make it sound like this is some common thing.... who are they? The public needs to know. Because these people do not seem to exist. Enlighten us.

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What if there's more than one method that works?

We'll only know that if someone shows the results of their method. Talk gets us nowhere.

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Actually, I was thinking of my short time in "professional martial arts dojos" when I wrote that. Was not specifically aimed at the occult, and I'd say it applies to all scenarios where students and teachers aren't forced into each others' laps (as they are in public education).

The shenanigans that go on in many dojos are very much similar to what goes on in the occult community. In fact, in ANY community in which claims are allowed to fly without proof.

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Yeah, there are those kinds of people. And then there are the kinds of people who know what they're doing, still give advice to people (not to blow their own horns but just to give the other person helpful advice), and who've been doing it for so long

They SAY they've done it so for long. They SAY they aren't out to blow their own horns. They SAY they know what they are doing.

I am a communication studies major. I chose that because it not only interested me, but because it allowed me to fulfill my parents wishes of attending college while still having time to study the occult (as you may know, communications studies is not considered to be a rigorous major).

One of the first things we are taught is: look at what people DO, do NOT look at what people SAY they are doing.

Many people SAY they are doing such and such for such and such reason...... but in reality, it winds up drumming up hype for them without ever having to really lay their title on the line.

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that they're sick and tired of other people who demand things of us and attempt to put us on display and dance for them like we're puppets of some sort. That sort of attitude is not how you get other people to do demonstrations for you.

You don't seem to understand.....

It is the person's RESPONSIBILITY to back up their claims. No one is "demanding" anything more than what is DESERVED.

If I have a machine that can run on hopes and dreams, saving the world from the destruction of fossil fuels, and I go around telling everyone about it, of course people are going to ask me for proof. Seriously. And if I get mad at people for asking me for proof..... I'M THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM.

If a scientists says they've found the cure for cancer, they must provide proof. If they don't give proof, they have no right to make the claim. A scientist doesn't get angry at people for "demanding" proof. Seriously.

Why do occultists think they are somehow above the laws of common sense? Why can they make claims without proof?

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Sure there is. I've seen it.

I've seen a flying pink unicorn. It exists.

If you want proof, go out and find it.

I've also discovered the cure for cancer. It exists. But I don't want to share it because I'm tired of people always asking me to cure their cancer. If they want a cure so bad, they can find their own cure.

See what I'm doing here?

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YOU go out and get it rather than sitting back and demanding that other people bring it to you on a silver platter EVEN IF there are people out there who are giving all sorts of claims about being able to bring it to you on a silver platter.

Again. Stop with this "silver platter" nonsense.

IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. By NOT providing evidence, it is THEY who are shirking their responsibility, and being immature.

Again I ask: why do occultists think they are better than everyone else? Why do they think a different set of rules apply to them?

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People may want to believe, but they're still afraid of the perceived social backlash of believing in something like metaphysics BECAUSE so many materialist scientists have gone out of their way to smear the entire idea of anything happening outside of the physical sphere to the point where they even make people feel like their idiots for considering the notion. A lot of people are very taken aback by that. Not everyone, however, and that's why metaphysics has become as popular as it has and why it is still continuing to grow, but it is what I consider a "slow" progression regardless of how fast you want to believe it should be (ie, it has taken the past several decades and I predict it will continue on in a gradual social acceptance for a few decades more).

Do you know why it's the case that there is a public backlash? Because the public doesn't know any better!

If you go around and say you don't believe in gravity, the public will be like, "wtf" because the public has seen evidence of gravity. If the public sees evidence of magic, you will be an idiot for NOT believing in magic. Yet no one has given sound proof to the public, despite all their claims that they could.

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Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.

Is that so? Then why aren't experiments in metaphysics getting more funding and attention?

Because I'm sure that all the people researching psychic phenomena say that they don't get enough funding people it's not "appropriate" to research psychic phenomena, despite all of the research supporting psychic phenomena there is  :confused:

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What part of this have you not been paying attention to? The SCIENTISTS have studied far more than enough metaphysical occurances to know that "something is up", but many are still unwilling to outright say "it's magic!" because the materialist scientists still hold such a strong sway over the highly credible scientific journals that scientists who believe in metaphysics can be ostracized from the scientific community with a smeared reputation. And for a scientist who gets their funding based on their reputation, that means it can potentially kill their career.

Science wants control. And retest. No one so far has been willing to go through retesting. For whatever reason. Because they are "tired of people demanding stuff on a silver platter" because their "astral body has been drained" because there are "too many negative vibes" or whatever reason. Seriously. Learn how science works.

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Scientific politics; it's sad, but it's true.

Really? But you just said that science was the study of reality, not puppets dancing for a king.....

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Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.

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And get smeared by the scientists, get smeared by the news papers, become a laughing stock of public opinion. There are psychics who did this. There are frauds who have done this. Not something a lot of people are willing to do.

You can't smear the truth. Gravity is gravity. i can read. No matter how many people out there call me a retard (no offense to anyone) I can still read.

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]This is the easy one, as most of us already do.

But no one seems to get the same results....

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Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Natasha, in my previous post, was tested a number of times in not-so-rigorous conditions, and her final test was also a not-very rigorous condition yet the people running that final test publicly stated that Natasha would only be considered for further testing if she could get 4/7 hits, and when she failed they made it out as though she was never psychic at all, had no psychic abilities, and was not worth further study by anyone.

Any educated person will know that's poor science.

That's what happens when you aren't familiar with the method. You are taken advantage of.

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Nina Kulagina, on the other hand, continued to be tested and tested and tested by the world's top scientists of the time. What did that get her? An early death from a heart condition, and a disgraced public image.

Could have been killed by the Church.

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What you're talking about is setting up an image in the public sphere, attempting to take on celebrity status, battling against those who WILL attempt to topple you, and ALSO teaching people how to do what you do.

Yeah. It's called ignoring other people and keep doing what you are doing. Musicians, athletes, politicians, scientists.... all manage to do this. Why are occultists so fragile?

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or at least it used to be several years ago.

Or so they say.

I went around giving demonstrations a couple years ago of me swallowing flaming swords. Nah, I don't want to prove it now. Lots of people in the past saw me do it.

See how... uh.... that ISN'T proof?

There are reports of UFO sightings and all kinds of crazy things..... that means NOTHING.

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]Four days and they stopped the experiment for one lady who was showing strong signs of health problems. 10 days for this guy and he's *perfectly fine* according to their own statements and records, yet they still cut the experiment due to an unreasonable fear.

It's not unreasonable. In every prior instance bad things have happened. It's quite reasonable, actually. If some dude told you he was going to jump off a skyscraper because he could fly, would you let him?

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Yeah, that would have been great, but they didn't. The scientists did not perform rigorous testing, ended their own tests, and even after all of that didn't even bother to give a positive review but just left it at a neutral review.

Yeah, that's how science operates.

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The guy who was being tested was not the one who withdrew.

In every article I read, he returned home.

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But then, that gets back in to their "bread and butter", as a negative reputation can kill their careers.

I thought that was only:

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Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.

What is it?

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That's what it's like in other fields, but in the parapsychology field there is a bias against that in public cases. They test and retest and retest until a fail comes up, and then they parade that failure around as heralding the death of metaphysics. It's happened many times already. I'm not talking theory, these are actual journals and reports and experimenter conclusions. It's a bias that parapsychologics and metaphysicists have been fighting against for the past 50ish years.

Really?

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Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.

So which one is it?


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Taking a look at three case studies, it's not as easy as you think it should be out in the public eye. However, right here in the not-so-public eye we have all of the teaching that a person who is interested could want. And occasionally proofs are given, but not on demand and it is just as unreasonable to assume that we should give proofs on demand as it is for those who want to teach others to assume that they should never have to give proofs. There is a middle ground, where at times proofs are given, just not to everyone every time it is demanded.

~Steve

I never said it was easy. Why are occultists so fragile? Why do they think everyone should believe them with no work? Why do they refer to people in childish terms whenever asked for proof? Why do they get so offended whenever they are asked for proof?

And, yet again, I must respond with your own quote...:

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Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:54:17 AM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:04:32 PM
Reply #1

Wren

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You've never had an initiation or a successful working? You've never had an extremely significant failure? That's hard for me to believe.

July 01, 2010, 12:09:35 PM
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Kichara

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I didn't read all of your post. I am a little ADD recently(literally).

I can tell you why Prophecy doesn't do demonstrations, though I feel he may have already told you this.

This is what he has told me, and I have heard him say at least 4 separate times. Ofcourse, this isn;t verbatim, but it is the essence.

Prophecy mostly teaches, that is his goal, as can be easily seen on these forums, and if you know him personally, in most everything he does. He has found that doing demonstrations and things of that sort do absolutely nothing to encourage people to practice or follow the path of magic. There is the rare individual who it does have an impact on in their practice and life.

My suggestion is you include some pranayama into your magic, and do the LBRP each day. The pranayama will get alot of energy moving and get you used to the feel of it. The LBRP will be something magical that will let you feel its effects.

I just thought about something. You said in another thread that you can feel the movements of energy.....why do you need proof? You know it is real......

Lastly, if you do 2-3 hours of practice a day, you will make your own proof in a month or so.
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July 01, 2010, 12:12:54 PM
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You've never had an initiation or a successful working? You've never had an extremely significant failure? That's hard for me to believe.

I'm unsure about the initiation bit (I've had some weird experiences and there are varying schools of thought and traditions on what could be considered an initiation)

I've had what I consider to be successful workings, but that's more of a hunch- it's me looking at a wide variety of factors, seeing that the chances of coincidence were so unbelievable. But I have not come across a satisfactory method that can be honestly repeated to get the exact same results in a controlled situation.

Plenty of failure. That's what's brought on this discussion.

I've had so much failure, but only a few slight successes which aren't completely out of the realm of coincidence. Yet I hear all this stuff about people who can do observable, repeatable things with a full proof method. I've been searching for years for that. Yet there are so many frauds, blinds, liars, and traps. I take more steps backward than forward for each passing day, and turning around doesn't seem to do much.

Then there are these people making claims it's like..... wow, how about you help the world out?

Prophecy mostly teaches, that is his goal, as can be easily seen on these forums, and if you know him personally, in most everything he does. He has found that doing demonstrations and things of that sort do absolutely nothing to encourage people to practice or follow the path of magic. There is the rare individual who it does have an impact on in their practice and life.

That makes me feel like shit, because I've dedicated so much of my life to this, despite the fact that I've NEVER had any objective proof. Then I meet someone who can give proof, and he's like, "yeah, too late, I've tried it in the past, it doesn't convince anyone." So, what, maybe if I was six years earlier I would have gotten somewhere? What, is that just sucky karma or something? Please.

Seriously. All I've ever wanted was something that has worked reliably. And then I come across something.... and it won't even go that extra inch. Talk about salt in the wound.

And, in the present, does NOTHING to separate itself from all the frauds I've encountered in the past. Because they say the same thing, "proof doesn't convince anyway."

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My suggestion is you include some pranayama into your magic, and do the LBRP each day. The pranayama will get alot of energy moving and get you used to the feel of it. The LBRP will be something magical that will let you feel its effects.

I just thought about something. You said in another thread that you can feel the movements of energy.....why do you need proof? You know it is real......

I do qigong. Too subjective.

And I haven't met a qigong teacher who is willing to make the step from "feeling healthy" to "doing stuff".
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 12:17:24 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:17:35 PM
Reply #4

Vilhjalmr

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You've never had an initiation or a successful working? You've never had an extremely significant failure? That's hard for me to believe.
I have had many what I would call "significant failures", but no working that has been an unqualified success. I rarely attempt to do anything that could be due to something else; all my attempts to produce physical result have failed. I have occasionally done something like a ritual to change the weather, and had the weather change like I wanted, but this does not seem to be a consistent result; sometimes nothing happens, or the weather change takes a variable amount of time. If I ever get a significant success rate I will be pleased.

He has found that doing demonstrations and things of that sort do absolutely nothing to encourage people to practice or follow the path of magic.
I find that very hard to believe! No one has ever offered me a demonstration, but it would change the course of my life if they did.

As it is, I put much less effort into magic than I used to; I mostly just read, since my coursework leaves little time for practice.

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Lastly, if you do 2-3 hours of practice a day, you will make your own proof in a month or so.
I'm interested. Practice in what system, and what sort of form will the proof take?
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July 01, 2010, 12:19:10 PM
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No one has ever offered me a demonstration, but it would change the course of my life if they did

This.

All that's ever been offered to me is a reason excuse for why a demonstration is out of the question.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:30:35 PM
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We don't have human rights, we have a series of priveledges that are supposed to be universally recognized when dealing with other people. They aren't. They aren't real. They are just words. As a word, "rights" helps to make society look more organized and less authoritarian.

Great. Time to open my child labor sweatshop.

Throw the words out the window. It's the meaning behind the words that I'm talking about.

Unless you think it's okay for me to go around abusing kids. Fine for business.

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Claims don't have to be substantiated. Some claims quite frankly can't be substantiated, even though they are true. This is a community, and in a community, you generally don't ask for proof that your neighbors dog has died.

But see some claims are within the realm of what we already know. People know that dogs die. So if someone says their dog died, we are more likely to believe it because we already have proof from a lifetime of experiences.

If someone says they can make some quarters move without touching them...... that requires some proof.

What claims did you have in mind that can't be substantiated?

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I understand that you are talking about those who give methods, but at the same time, you are attacking the pillars of this virtual community, and thus you invoke the community. *ire* *ire*

If they are solid pillars, me poking around shouldn't be a problem.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:36:55 PM
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Kichara

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"What, is that just sucky karma "

Yes.

That is exactly what it is, dude.

I am being serious. And you would have been good if you came 4 years ago.

I am talking about the system of Therugy, aka Hermetic Magic.
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July 01, 2010, 12:38:25 PM
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"What, is that just sucky karma "

Yes.

That is exactly what it is, dude.

I am being serious. And you would have been good if you came 4 years ago.

Really? And what proof of karma is there?

I just think it's a sucky coincidence.

Or maybe, there is no such thing as karma, and God just hates me.

Honestly, do you know that's kind of like, a kick in the balls?

Karma is kind of a kick in the balls.

It's like, the deus ex machina for occult rhetoric. "If you don't get it, karma. If you don't believe in karma- karma."

But I guess I have that opinion because of.... karma.  :headwall:
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:42:36 PM
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Vilhjalmr

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I just think it's a sucky coincidence.
Maybe our trials and tribulations will be rewarded by immense occult power, unequaled in history, due to our everlasting search for truly efficacious methods!

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It's like, the deus ex machina for occult rhetoric. "If you don't get it, karma. If you don't believe in karma- karma."
:lol: It is a pretty commonly used excuse. Almost as bad as "magic isn't about results" or "who cares if the results are due to placebo or magic the end is the same isn't it"...
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July 01, 2010, 12:43:36 PM
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Wren

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There is nothing stopping you from opening up that sweat shop, besides the limitations that men place upon you enforced with guns. I don't agree with it, but the moral boogeyman isn't important, the attitudes of others are.

Claims of past actions, not recorded at the time, or impossible to record. Initiation for example.

The "lifetime experience" of a magician stretches to include some rather interesting things as well. Though I must admit, most of the phenomenon you talk of seems much more like psionics than magic.


July 01, 2010, 12:45:00 PM
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Kichara

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Karma is alot more than a kick in the balls.

"'What you have to consider,' he [the mechanic] says, 'is the possibility that God doesn't like you. Could be, God hates us. This is not the worst thing that can happen."
Fight club quote.

I usually sum Karma up as the law of cause and effect. Science says every effect has a cause and vice versus.

I don't feel like trying to prove Karma to you, because i don;t care if you believe in it or not. I come here because I like to talk alot. About spiritual stuff.
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July 01, 2010, 12:49:21 PM
Reply #12

Vilhjalmr

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I don't feel like trying to prove Karma to you, because i don;t care if you believe in it or not.
Could you do it if you wanted to?
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July 01, 2010, 12:50:55 PM
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Claims of past actions, not recorded at the time, or impossible to record.

You can do the action in the present, which goes back to your dog dying example-

We might not know FOR SURE it happened in the past, but if we can see it happening in the present, we are likely to believe it happened in the past, because we know it can happen.

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The "lifetime experience" of a magician stretches to include some rather interesting things as well.

Such as...?

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Though I must admit, most of the phenomenon you talk of seems much more like psionics than magic.

Magic develops the same stuff, to my knowledge. But most of the stuff that's easiest to demonstrate over video is similar to "psionic" stuff. Unless you want to video yourself going to a random place in public and mind reading people, or manifesting some elemental, or predicting some zener cards

Obviously, the more a magician wants to do the better, but I'm trying to keep it as low key as possible, because as I said in the other thread, I'm not interested in causing permanent harm or physical damage or destruction- and I'm sure most other people aren't either!

Karma is alot more than a kick in the balls.

I've spent a lot of time studying a lot of different mechanisms of karma, depending on the tradition.

And it is, kind of like a kick in the balls.

A small child asks why he has cancer, why he has to die, why other kids get to grow up and live happy lives. And you tell the kid, "sorry, it's just an effect to your cause!"

Yeah. Tell me that isn't essentially a kick in the balls.

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"'What you have to consider,' he [the mechanic] says, 'is the possibility that God doesn't like you. Could be, God hates us. This is not the worst thing that can happen."
Fight club quote.

Story of my life.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:53:19 PM
Reply #14

Kichara

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I could argue it.

I doubt I could prove it.


I really like that Karma says I got an incurable disease as a 5 year-old because of something I did before. It makes it feel less like a random kick in the balls, and more like I got kicked in the balls cause I hit another dude in the face with a bat.
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