Author Topic: Speed of Magic  (Read 22149 times)

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June 30, 2010, 01:02:09 PM
Reply #45

Searching

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The problem with online communities is that people like Prophecy and Kobok can't really show us anything. Videos are poor evidence, at best. They could do something like go to the grocery store and cause a commotion with their arcane powers, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to (even if that is most often used as an excuse).

That's the thing, though, people don't even TRY to make good videos.

Yeah, videos CAN be faked, but you can go through a lot of trouble to eliminate as much as possible.

Shoot it in one take. Go from wherever you are, into some store. Buy something. Take the change outside to some empty parking lot. Throw the change on the ground. Pan the camera around. Show your hands. Wear short leaves and stuff. have the camera zoomed all the way out. Use TK to move some pennies across the pavement.

If I could do it, that's what I would start out with.

Simple. Straightforward.

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Imperial Arts is a Goetic magician, who claims that once he went to the trouble to actually do everything exactly as outlined in the Goetia (e.g., acquiring a real lion hide), he was able to command the spirits to appear visibly, grant gifts, and even cause earthquakes. Unfortunately, I know of two people who were "disciples" of Imperial Arts, and both of them eventually gave up Goetic magic because of lack of results. Though I can't know that they actually did everything "right" (and I know one did make some minor changes to the rituals), it is a little discouraging to see that when other people attempt these things, they fail... makes one suspicious of Imperial Arts' claims.

But again, he's a good writer, and intelligent; that doesn't mean he isn't a liar, but I wouldn't take much advice from someone who can't spell, either.

PsiPog is a site about psionics, including telekinesis and even such impressive things as causing massive columns of flame to appear; but again we see the pattern of one or two "masters" and then hundreds of faithful disciples, trying their best to emulate them but failing. I don't know of anyone, except (supposedly) the authors of the articles themselves, who has been able to achieve any sort of results from PsiPog's stuff.

Tomekeeper is another famous magician, who also makes grandiose claims about immortality through necromancy and so forth; I joined his forums once, long ago, and asked if anyone had actually achieved the things Tomekeeper promised. They said magic was more about finding your inner light or something, and they didn't even want to light a candle with their mind anyway because why not use a match. *sigh*

A lot of stuff I've read on psipog has dovetailed really nicely with some other practices I've seen, so I don't want to trash the entire psipog group, if only because they can at least talk a good game. But yeah, a few of the people there have made some pretty amazing claims and I.... don't really know what to say about it.

Haven't heard too much of the other people.

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I doubt anyone of any advanced caliber would be interested in fire flinging demon summoning magic.
Why is that?

Because at a certain point you get these really bothersome qualities like.... respect for human life.... being able to identify with the suffering of others.... compassion.... these things really cut down on your ability to be a badass. I was watching an action movie one day, and I mean, I've always known that stuff was fake, I've made a few movies myself with friends, and I know it's all make believe.... but I dunno, about halfway through the film I just couldn't watch it anymore. It was just sick. I was like..... such disregard for the value of human life.....

I don't know if you've seen some of my other posts, but some of my experiments with manifesting involving people and certain objects or events have made me careful about meddling with peoples' lives. You know, like I don't always know what repercussions my actions may have, I don't want to cause trouble, so unless something or someone is heading in a certain direction, I don't really want to intervene.

Which cuts down my own desire to do things like.... mind control people.... summon a demon horde.... cause earthquakes and tornadoes..... Just, not my thing. I mean I'd like to learn how to be able to do them, just to be able to do them.... but in terms of stuff that I'd actually be interested in USING, less intrusive methods like telepathy, mind reading, minor telekinetic stuff. Lighting a candle with my mind would be really cool, I could use it to help set romantic atmospheres, being able to use tk to move my notebook over this way when I need to write something down.... small, non-obtrusive, and if someone wants me to prove a little something, I can do so.

So I figure if I at my low level has had these feelings, a higher level master might have them as well.

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Heck, since the consensus seems to be that magic isn't affected by distance, why couldn't someone make a bit of fluff on my table move? I would gladly set up such an experiment!

That's a great idea.

Though somehow I doubt someone unwilling to take the time to make a video would take the time to move some fluff across your desk but.... it is a good idea.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

June 30, 2010, 05:40:13 PM
Reply #46

Steve

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Now, first I have to admit that I have not read the entire thread. I haven't even read most of it. However, I would just like to say something (hopefully) simple.

Searching is right in that the tangible results prove something. They prove that what you're doing is not fake... so long as what you're doing is not fake. Stage magicians can get the same effects, or better effects, so obviously watching them is not going to prove anything.

But what, Searching, is the difference between me and a stage magician if we both produce the same results? If we both produce a bout of fire in thin air between our hands, and I claim it is "real magic" but the stage magician comes clean and says it's "stage magic", then how can you, Searching, as the observer, know whether what I did is "real magic" or is "stage magic" and I'm lying about it?

The answer is in doing it yourself. That is the only way for anyone to know whether what they are doing is real or fake, is if they get results for themselves... except even then it's not so simple. As someone else pointed out, Kobok is really good at giving non-metaphysical reasons for effects which people sometimes believe are metaphysical.

The question is not always an easy one to answer. The greater effects are worth more proof to the individual, but it still requires the proper training to get to that point, and if someone is using a system that just plain does not work then they'll never get to that point. If the person is using a system that should work, but are doing it wrong, then they still may never get to that point. If the person is using a system and using it right and the system really will work for the person, then the matter is in waiting the requisite time for the provable results to manifest... and that takes time. Time enough that people get fed up and quit, or that people start to doubt, or start to question "if this stuff is real, why doesn't it work right away!?" and other things.

How much time should a person wait before they can see real results? I spent six months of "playing" with qi gong, not even knowing what it was, before I had my first real and blatant experience, and they continued from there. I didn't try to do something like that before that six months because I didn't even realize it might be real; I used the effect internally to good effect but believed it was probably nothing more than psychofeedback. It was only through my curiosity that I finally tried to use it externally and got an obvious result. So is six months the norm? Is six months too long for people to continue training in a system that may or may not work based on two very critical criteria, one being whether the system itself works and the second being whether the student is learning the system correctly? Who's to say whether the student is using the system correctly, or if they are failing instead of the system failing?

So, I can't trust other people to give me proof that a system works, because that "proof" can be faked (ie, radki videos). I can't trust the system itself until I've used it to produce something. I have to wait patiently, while continually practicing stoically, and trust that I haven't been lied to about the system (and the magic altogether!), and only after I have performed an obvious metaphysical feat for myself can I *begin* to be certain that any of this at all is true.

It is asking quite a lot of a person to bet a significant amount of their money on a wager where you know the answer and they do not. The value of time is different to most people, but asking them to gamble it away because of some videos on the internet that may or may not be fake can still be asking a lot of them. Once again, I would like to bring up the history of rad ki as an example of this.

Maybe none of what I said even applies to what else has been said in this thread, so forgive me if I'm off base here ^_^

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

June 30, 2010, 07:11:25 PM
Reply #47

Searching

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Steve, I agree with everything you said about the proving it to yourself and there not being a norm, so I'll just include the stuff I'm responding to directly.

Now, first I have to admit that I have not read the entire thread. I haven't even read most of it. However, I would just like to say something (hopefully) simple.

Searching is right in that the tangible results prove something. They prove that what you're doing is not fake... so long as what you're doing is not fake. Stage magicians can get the same effects, or better effects, so obviously watching them is not going to prove anything.

But what, Searching, is the difference between me and a stage magician if we both produce the same results? If we both produce a bout of fire in thin air between our hands, and I claim it is "real magic" but the stage magician comes clean and says it's "stage magic", then how can you, Searching, as the observer, know whether what I did is "real magic" or is "stage magic" and I'm lying about it?

So, I can't trust other people to give me proof that a system works, because that "proof" can be faked (ie, radki videos). I can't trust the system itself until I've used it to produce something. I have to wait patiently, while continually practicing stoically, and trust that I haven't been lied to about the system (and the magic altogether!), and only after I have performed an obvious metaphysical feat for myself can I *begin* to be certain that any of this at all is true.

Obviously videos can be faked. I'm not asking for JUST videos. Hopefully videos are just the start. As more people get drawn to it, more people can have direct experiences, and the word can spread. Also, if a method is being taught, more people can learn the method, do it themselves, and then teach others.

It's like pen tricks. Like the thumb around. Somebody somewhere made up that trick. Told people about it. Then showed some people. Then they made videos that showed people doing it. People tried it and failed. Then people made videos instructing people how to do it. People learned, failed a bit, and while different people take different amounts of time to learn a trick like the thumb around, eventually enough people learn it that we all know that it's possible. Then the people who can do it show it to others, and now pen tricks are pretty well known and a lot of people can do them, even if they don't do them well or often.

I'm hoping that various phenomena and occult abilities will do the same thing. But it has to start somewhere. It has to start with someone who CAN do something actually DOING IT (again, this is assuming this person actually has an interest in doing so, and that's been discussed previously.... basically, in my opinion, if you are making claims you need to back them, if you have no intent on backing your claims, stop talking).

So someone starts with some very compelling videos. Sure, they could be faked. But these are the most realistic videos out there. People seek out the video maker. Gain direct experiences. Find out there is a method. Learn the method. Then they can do it too. Now you have new teachers who can do the same things. Eventually more rigorous experiments are created. Science gets involved. We create airtight experiments. And eventually this stuff moves from the realm of "belief" to "fact".

We "believe" in it because it is staring at us right in the face.

But the ball has to get rolling with someone. Someone has to step forward and say, "this stuff works. This is how you can do it. Don't believe it? WATCH ME DO IT."

In all seriousness, there is NO professional community which demands belief without experience. For some reason, only spirituality, and by extent, the occult, requires belief before experience. "This system works and my proof is that if you work hard enough at it, you'll discover it yourself, unless you aren't meant to, or you're a special case, in which you won't."

Seriously. It's ridiculous.

There are several spiritual traditions, such as Buddhism, which place direct experience as the most important. Don't believe in something unless you experience it yourself. Now many people take this to mean that they don't have to give proof. Which I think is twisting the message. If you are going around telling people that anyone can become psychic, that anyone can control the elements, or do any of this stuff, and all they have to do is go through your method which takes an average person 20 years but if you do super extra strong training you can get there in 8-10....... they are going to need to EXPERIENCE some RESULTS.

Because if I'm giving away 10-20 years of my life..... it better damn well be worth it. And there have been a lot of frauds in the past that have made the EXACT SAME offers. What separates a fraud from someone legit? Action. A fraud hides behind words. A legitimate teacher supports statements with action.

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It is asking quite a lot of a person to bet a significant amount of their money on a wager where you know the answer and they do not. The value of time is different to most people, but asking them to gamble it away because of some videos on the internet that may or may not be fake can still be asking a lot of them. Once again, I would like to bring up the history of rad ki as an example of this.

The thing is that it doesn't stop with videos. It keeps going.

People WANT to believe. Bullshido challenges "qi power fighters" all the time. Bullshido knows it's bullshit. Part of it is that they want to see these guys get their asses kicked. But a small part of it, what I think really drives the behavior is..... it could be true. They MIGHT meet a guy who, if you touch him after he's powered up, can kill you. It might happen. So you have Bullshido guys who KNOW this stuff is bullshit constantly driving all over the place, scoping out teachers, and throwing down.

You have paranormal investigators chasing all over the world for evidence of legitimate psychic phenomenon. People are still freaking out over John Chang because he lit a newspaper on fire, and Change has repeatedly said he is not interested in teaching anymore. But people are still raving over what he can do. Because they've SEEN it.

Imagine someone who goes on video and STAYS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Seriously. It's not hard.

If anyone has the ability and is interested in changing the world...... you can do it. Seriously.

But there are people demanding your time (and possibly money), and they won't even do you the courtesy of giving you a video that can be faked! Because "well videos don't prove anything" or "you need to prove it to yourself" or "this isn't about external validation" or "those are just parlor tricks and won't get you anywhere" or "how would this help you or someone else?" or any number of reasons. But what it boils down to is: ALL. TALK.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 07:16:20 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

June 30, 2010, 07:58:39 PM
Reply #48

Steve

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Well, I went back and read the thread and saw where this is coming from.

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Someone who legitimately had a good method who legitimately wanted to share this technique would have NO PROBLEM proving it to anyone.
This is just not true. If you are such a person who can do that, then why haven't you done as you yourself said? If you are not such a person, then how many such people have you met such that you know what they would or would not do with their own lives? Furthermore, did not Kobok and Prophecy do both of those, through a handful of classes each? "Why aren't they still doing them?", one might ask, and the answer is that nobody can devote their entire life to the teaching of others when they themselves still want to learn.

Also, if you've read any of the reports of what kind of crap that materialistic scientists and pseudo-scientists run would-be psychics through, it's quite easy to understand why legitimate psychics wouldn't even both. Nina Kulagina, for instance, was a societ psychic who could do this shit, DID this shit in front of cameras and with the world's top scientists of the time testing her, and STILL the news reporters (who'd never met her) smeared her so thoroughly that the masses of people disbelieved in her without even knowing who she was. She was a publicly proven psychic and still she was ridiculed by people who didn't know what they were doing to the extent that her credibility was destroyed.

Regarding training of others, there are two ways to look at it. Does the teacher want to gather students, or is the teacher satisfied with just teaching whoever shows up? If one of the goals of the teacher is to lure, then certainly there must be a good worm on the tack, especially if the teacher demands anything of the student. On the other hand, a lot of people who can do what they do are content to just continue doing what they're doing and decide whether they will teach those who wish to be students; on this hand, it is on the onus of the student to decide for them self why they're bothering to truth the potential teacher.

However, I will draw a parallel to martial arts. The "masters" of a hall can put the best advertisements out there, have the best techniques, know what they're doing, and still not train students very well. There is a great onus on the student to train them self, even if the technique is valid, even if the end results are real, even if the "master" could physically pick up the student's body and force the student's body to go through all of the training while the student just kind of lounges in the hands of the master. This is akin to the idea of metaphysics being researched as BubbaFett wanted, be advertised as Searching wanted, and yet still failing because the student doesn't care. On the other hand, I and many others all accidentally stumbled upon metaphysics and gained results without any of the benefit of the foregoing.

In the end, each of us can only do what each of us wants to do. If BubbaFett wants to continue training himself and not advertise that he has these abilities until he feels he is capable of providing good substance to any such advertising, then he can certainly do so. If Searching wants to begin advertising it all right away in the hopes of a grass-roots movement, then Searching can certainly do so. If I wish to just continue with my own development and never train another person so long as I live, then I can certainly do so.

And the same goes for each theoretical person who we are assuming would be seeing the advertisments for magic; there are a lot of such adverts out there already. Some people decide to believe everything they read or see whole heartedly, hoping it's all true and easy to do (ie, rad ki). Some automatically disbelieve it because it does not fit their world view and they have not yet learned how to think outside of their box (ie, James Randi). Others will see it, check it out because they're curious, dabble a little, and then get sick of it and go back to leading a normal life regardless of whether they know/believe it's "really" doable or not. And still others will continue trying it and trying it and trying it, and continue to get better and will prove to them self all the proof they need.

The difference in why people do metaphysics or quit or never start is not due to the abundance or lack of proof. It's for the individual's own reasons. There's already more than enough advertising out there in the real world, already enough of a positive image for metaphysics that only those who're already close minded will dismiss it offhand. The scientific method is also already being used, and experiments being run, and journals being printed. It's a slow change due mostly to the choking hold that materialism "recently" held upon the world, but change is happening.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 08:03:42 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

June 30, 2010, 09:35:04 PM
Reply #49

Vilhjalmr

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That's the thing, though, people don't even TRY to make good videos.

Yeah, videos CAN be faked, but you can go through a lot of trouble to eliminate as much as possible.

Shoot it in one take. Go from wherever you are, into some store. Buy something. Take the change outside to some empty parking lot. Throw the change on the ground. Pan the camera around. Show your hands. Wear short leaves and stuff. have the camera zoomed all the way out. Use TK to move some pennies across the pavement.

If I could do it, that's what I would start out with.

Simple. Straightforward.
QFT, my friend!

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A lot of stuff I've read on psipog has dovetailed really nicely with some other practices I've seen, so I don't want to trash the entire psipog group, if only because they can at least talk a good game. But yeah, a few of the people there have made some pretty amazing claims and I.... don't really know what to say about it.
I'm not sure on PsiPog either. The stated goal, of encouraging psychic phenomena to be taken seriously, is laudable, and they certainly have enough information. I just noticed that, for instance, in the "Questions and Answers" section, for example, everyone who e-mails says "I've been practicing for months and still nothing", which makes me wonder. There are also a lot of questions like "can I make a fire tornado with my mind" and the answer always seems to be "yes", no matter how ridiculous the attempted feat. :-P

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Because at a certain point you get these really bothersome qualities like.... respect for human life.... being able to identify with the suffering of others.... compassion....
Or do you?

I mean, I agree with you. I can't even read books where people get hurt, really. I get too sad. But I've always wondered if magical achievement really has a direct relationship with wisdom.

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That's a great idea.

Though somehow I doubt someone unwilling to take the time to make a video would take the time to move some fluff across your desk but.... it is a good idea.
That's true, sadly. But I'm glad you like it. :D

As someone else pointed out, Kobok is really good at giving non-metaphysical reasons for effects which people sometimes believe are metaphysical.
*preens* :lol:

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The greater effects are worth more proof to the individual, but it still requires the proper training to get to that point, and if someone is using a system that just plain does not work...

How much time should a person wait before they can see real results? ... So is six months the norm? Is six months too long for people to continue training in a system that may or may not work based on two very critical criteria, one being whether the system itself works and the second being whether the student is learning the system correctly? Who's to say whether the student is using the system correctly, or if they are failing instead of the system failing?
These are the questions that bother me most, and why I've spent so much time merely looking for a system. Even a year certainly does not seem unreasonable, but what if I practice for a year and still no results? Should I give up, assuming the system is unworkable? What if I was just a few months away from finally gaining the proof I seek? What if I keep going and end up wasting years of my life?

It is a thorny problem, to be sure.

Also, if you've read any of the reports of what kind of crap that materialistic scientists and pseudo-scientists run would-be psychics through, it's quite easy to understand why legitimate psychics wouldn't even both. Nina Kulagina, for instance, was a societ psychic who could do this shit, DID this shit in front of cameras and with the world's top scientists of the time testing her, and STILL the news reporters (who'd never met her) smeared her so thoroughly that the masses of people disbelieved in her without even knowing who she was. She was a publicly proven psychic and still she was ridiculed by people who didn't know what they were doing to the extent that her credibility was destroyed.
I don't know about that. People in the occult community seem to have a sort of conspiracy-theory mindset, thinking that all the bad evil scientists are out to embarrass them in any way possible. As a science major (organic chemistry), I will say that this is exactly the opposite of the way I feel; I want to help people prove they can do these things, not discredit them!

It's not impossible that there are people who would lie and cheat in order to discredit occultists, but I don't know if I'd consider just testing for evidence "running someone through crap".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 09:45:25 PM by Vilhjalmr »
Etwas auf Deutsch

June 30, 2010, 11:27:42 PM
Reply #50

Steve

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When I said "materialistic scientists" I meant specifically those who are of the materialism group, who believe that the material aspect to the universe is the only aspect to the universe. The majority of scientists have religious/spiritual beliefs and I do not mean those scientists outside of the groups I mentioned. I guess I should have put quotes around that or something.

As for those who put would-be psychics through the ringer, consider not only Nina Kulagina but also Natasha Demkina http://www.yourdiscovery.com/reality/human_files/girl/index.shtml who's "final" and most publicized test was not done with real scientists, the procedures were changed on her last minute, the criteria for success were deemed one point too much (4/7 instead of 3/7) for many people who analyzed the procedure later, and she was placed in a situation that she found extraordinarily stressful. The people who ran the tests declared that if she could not pass the single test then she was basically "not psychic", without taking into account the idea of multiple tests, or limiting negative influences, etc.

Next, take the East Indian man who was secluded for 10 days during a scientific test because he claimed he had gone the past 70 years without eating. After two weeks, despite being healthy, the scientists running the studied canceled it because they were sure that he should not be able to go much longer without putting his health in jeopardy (despite having no basis to believe he was becoming unhealthy) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia#Prahlad_Jani_.28.22Mataji.22.29 The ones running the experiment drew no conclusions for all of that time and effort. "Critics" who were not involved basically claimed that the testers messed up somehow (including one guy who thought he was so important that he should be allowed to barge in on the experiment at his leisure).

Metaphysics is being studied, but is not being given a fair analysis in the more vocal journals, and is being a bad reputation in the poor journals that believe anything and everything.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

July 01, 2010, 08:57:41 AM
Reply #51

Searching

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Someone who legitimately had a good method who legitimately wanted to share this technique would have NO PROBLEM proving it to anyone.
This is just not true. If you are such a person who can do that, then why haven't you done as you yourself said?

Because I'm not such a person. If I could, I probably would. If I had no intention of doing so, I'd keep my mouth shut about whatever I can do.

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If you are not such a person, then how many such people have you met such that you know what they would or would not do with their own lives?

None.

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Furthermore, did not Kobok and Prophecy do both of those, through a handful of classes each?

That's what I hear. But you know what they say. Believe half of what you say and none of what you hear.

I've HEARD a lot of people say they saw UFO's. So far Prophecy and Kobok are on par with UFO sighters.

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"Why aren't they still doing them?", one might ask, and the answer is that nobody can devote their entire life to the teaching of others when they themselves still want to learn.

Well that's nice.

So I just missed it, is that it? Should have been around 6 years ago when they were doing demonstrations? They can't even be bothered to move on quarter for me, or read my mind and tell me one thing about myself I've never told anyone before?

Seriously?

In my humble opinion, that's bullshit. Professional basketball players have plenty of time to show their skills. Professional skateboarders show their skills all the time.

I've devoted so much time to people who talk the talk. And I have very little to show for it compared to the amount of work I'm putting in. Then some people come around and talk a good game and have a system that you can develop these abilities, and guess what, they even give demonstrations of their abilities (six years ago) and people are like, "oh yeah, there's your proof the system works!"

It's like, "uh.........." that's not proof. Sorry. No.

I can slam dunk a basketball. Yeah. I did it in front of a bunch of people a couple of years ago. Yeah, my method of learning how to dunk is better than everyone else's. Yeah, everyone thinks it's about jumping, but that's not what it is. Come learn from me and you can dunk in a very short time. No I don't want to shoot a video because those can be faked. Travel halfway across the world and I'll show you the techniques. No I won't show you in person because you need to prove things to yourself.


THAT IS WHAT'S BEING DONE. Does it sound ridiculous? BECAUSE IT IS.

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Also, if you've read any of the reports of what kind of crap that materialistic scientists and pseudo-scientists run would-be psychics through, it's quite easy to understand why legitimate psychics wouldn't even both. Nina Kulagina, for instance, was a societ psychic who could do this shit, DID this shit in front of cameras and with the world's top scientists of the time testing her, and STILL the news reporters (who'd never met her) smeared her so thoroughly that the masses of people disbelieved in her without even knowing who she was. She was a publicly proven psychic and still she was ridiculed by people who didn't know what they were doing to the extent that her credibility was destroyed.

Yeah you know who else ran a smear campaign? The Europeans against the Wright brothers. Most of Europe didn't believe they succeeded in flying. They claimed the right brothers just SAID they flew. Did that bother the Wright brothers? NO. Did they keep flying? YES. Did they change the world forever? YES. Boo fucking hoo if someone doesn't believe you. If you can do it, negative criticism shouldn't stop you. If it does, grow a back bone, or construct a psi shield or something. Seriously. Plenty of professional athletes do mind boggling things on a daily basis despite people thinking that it can't be done, and newspapers saying it can't be done.

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Regarding training of others, there are two ways to look at it. Does the teacher want to gather students, or is the teacher satisfied with just teaching whoever shows up? If one of the goals of the teacher is to lure, then certainly there must be a good worm on the tack, especially if the teacher demands anything of the student. On the other hand, a lot of people who can do what they do are content to just continue doing what they're doing and decide whether they will teach those who wish to be students; on this hand, it is on the onus of the student to decide for them self why they're bothering to truth the potential teacher.

Your little argument is the cause for so much bullshit and mockery that ONLY goes on in the occult community. People SAY they can do a lot of things, but when asked to perform them, "oh well, I don't want to give away everything, I want to lure students, besides, I want them to decide on their own if what they want to do is genuine."

Well guess what? What I, and many others, want to do is genuine, yet they get pulled in to all kinds of frauds who spout the same nonsense about why they don't have to prove anything.

What separates Prophecy and Kobok from all the other frauds out there? Nothing. Nope.

They all have systems that promise something. And they all have reports attached to their name about some deed or action. And they all have reasons for why they aren't going to prove anything, but will keep talking about it like they can.

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However, I will draw a parallel to martial arts. The "masters" of a hall can put the best advertisements out there, have the best techniques, know what they're doing, and still not train students very well. There is a great onus on the student to train them self, even if the technique is valid, even if the end results are real, even if the "master" could physically pick up the student's body and force the student's body to go through all of the training while the student just kind of lounges in the hands of the master. This is akin to the idea of metaphysics being researched as BubbaFett wanted, be advertised as Searching wanted, and yet still failing because the student doesn't care. On the other hand, I and many others all accidentally stumbled upon metaphysics and gained results without any of the benefit of the foregoing.

Yeah, I had that attitude once. I was 15, went to a karate dojo, the teachers didn't really teach, but I knew that karate had a rich history. I researched the techniques, trained 3x harder than everyone else, did knuckle push ups for FUN, started makiwara training, got all kinds of books and did all kinds of training. I believed that since I had karate training, I was a better fighter than some untrained dude off the streets. I had the ability to defend myself and others.

Then one day this new guy comes in, starts sparring after he's there for a couple months, and he KICKS MY ASS. Why? Because in karate you hit, pull back, hit, pull back, and so on. This guy hit and moved forward, then KEPT HITTING. I had no idea what to do because I had never seen that strategy before. It shook me to the core. Because what I had been learning, while all my teachers were like, "karate is about defeating the person within, it's about self better, and defending innocents from people who want to hurt them...." DIDN'T WORK.

Luckily for me I didn't experience that in the UFC and get seriously hurt.

Even more lucky was that I didn't learn that lesson on the streets with someone who potentially wanted to kill me.

Why, in spirituality and (to some extent) the martial arts, are people allowed to carry on as they please without proving themselves? Look at my biology example a couple posts up.

Because people WANT TO BELIEVE and will allow CHARLATANS to carry on as they please with NO ACCOUNTABILITY for their words. Genuine people are LETTING people get hurt because the genuine people aren't stepping up and clearing away all the bullshit, despite the fact that "genuine" people are like, "well I want to set the record straight...."

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In the end, each of us can only do what each of us wants to do. If BubbaFett wants to continue training himself and not advertise that he has these abilities until he feels he is capable of providing good substance to any such advertising, then he can certainly do so. If Searching wants to begin advertising it all right away in the hopes of a grass-roots movement, then Searching can certainly do so. If I wish to just continue with my own development and never train another person so long as I live, then I can certainly do so.

Err, you missed something. There's a slight nuance to my argument.....

I am ONLY talking about the people who go around making claims. The fourth pillar, "keep silent." I'm sure there are masters who can do amazing things but who never talk about it, and maybe only teach a few people sworn to secrecy. That's fine. I may not necessarily agree with it, but it's their prerogative.

I'm talking about people who say stuff like, "if you study this method, you can do X,Y, and Z. In fact, I've done X,Y, and Z a number of times. I've even done A, B, and C to or in front of other people. In fact, here's a person who say me do H, I, and J. Oh, you want me to do something for you now? No, not really, because that's not what my system is about. If you really want to see it, prove it to yourself."

They are using things as "bait" to draw people in, but they have no intention of actually giving you the bait once you bite the hook. At least fish get a worm before they are mutilated and killed.

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is not due to the abundance or lack of proof.

Proof has nothing to do with it. Because there is none.

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It's for the individual's own reasons.

Yes. It's whether they are willing to shoot themselves in the foot and act the fool by believing something that they have no reason to believe in.

I much prefer the Buddhist flavor of faith of belief due to experience. Billions of people believe in gravity because they see it every day. If spirituality/occult phenomena are true, the same standard should apply. ESPECIALLY to people making the claim that they can do it at will.

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There's already more than enough advertising out there in the real world, already enough of a positive image for metaphysics that only those who're already close minded will dismiss it offhand. The scientific method is also already being used, and experiments being run, and journals being printed. It's a slow change due mostly to the choking hold that materialism "recently" held upon the world, but change is happening.

Uri Geller had universities dedicated to studying his spoon bending. And he wasn't even real.

Don't tell me metaphysics will be "slow" to enter into the mainstream. Because that's bullshit. People want to believe. That's why stage magicians and actors (translation: fakes) are allowed to exist and carry on so freely.

As I said before, science follows public opinion. If people think it's bullshit, scientists aren't gonna be too keen on it. The easiest way is to start showing it to people. The science will follow. Or, at the very least, go show the scientists, but on the SCIENTISTS terms. Let them control everything. If people wanted to prove I can read, it doesn't matter what situation they decide to put me in, I'm still going to have my ability to read, even if people don't think I can.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 09:11:16 AM
Reply #52

Searching

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Or do you?

I mean, I agree with you. I can't even read books where people get hurt, really. I get too sad. But I've always wondered if magical achievement really has a direct relationship with wisdom.

Well the thing with magical achievement is that it brings you experience- and those experiences help you to see that certain things are beneficial to yourself and others, while other things are detrimental. At least, that's what I think.

Also, if you've read any of the reports of what kind of crap that materialistic scientists and pseudo-scientists run would-be psychics through, it's quite easy to understand why legitimate psychics wouldn't even both. Nina Kulagina, for instance, was a societ psychic who could do this shit, DID this shit in front of cameras and with the world's top scientists of the time testing her, and STILL the news reporters (who'd never met her) smeared her so thoroughly that the masses of people disbelieved in her without even knowing who she was. She was a publicly proven psychic and still she was ridiculed by people who didn't know what they were doing to the extent that her credibility was destroyed.
I don't know about that. People in the occult community seem to have a sort of conspiracy-theory mindset, thinking that all the bad evil scientists are out to embarrass them in any way possible. As a science major (organic chemistry), I will say that this is exactly the opposite of the way I feel; I want to help people prove they can do these things, not discredit them!

It's not impossible that there are people who would lie and cheat in order to discredit occultists, but I don't know if I'd consider just testing for evidence "running someone through crap".
 [/quote]

Yes, the problem is that science is RIGOROUS. You can take a few tests in a couple hotel rooms spontaneously. That's great. Now scientists want to cut any extraneous variables. They want to tell their friends. Their friends want to test. And retest. Yeah, proving yourself isn't easy. Professional skateboarders take a lot of falls before they do what they do. But they do it.

This is why sharing the METHOD is equally important, because then you get people who research the method. You get experiments set up in which people practice developing it on their own.

That not only cuts the stress on you, but it helps people affirm what they see through their own actions.

That "running through crap" is what it takes to prove that YOU aren't the one who's full of crap.

[/quote]
When I said "materialistic scientists" I meant specifically those who are of the materialism group, who believe that the material aspect to the universe is the only aspect to the universe. The majority of scientists have religious/spiritual beliefs and I do not mean those scientists outside of the groups I mentioned. I guess I should have put quotes around that or something.

As for those who put would-be psychics through the ringer, consider not only Nina Kulagina but also Natasha Demkina http://www.yourdiscovery.com/reality/human_files/girl/index.shtml who's "final" and most publicized test was not done with real scientists, the procedures were changed on her last minute, the criteria for success were deemed one point too much (4/7 instead of 3/7) for many people who analyzed the procedure later, and she was placed in a situation that she found extraordinarily stressful. The people who ran the tests declared that if she could not pass the single test then she was basically "not psychic", without taking into account the idea of multiple tests, or limiting negative influences, etc.

These are the two things that I've been talking about...

1) don't limit yourself- go public, stay public, keep showing, that way you get the word out and drum up more interest
2) share your method so people can test it themselves
3) don't just rely on one group of scientists- science is about testing and RETESTING. Even if one group declares you aren't psychic, if you keep doing new stuff and people keep experiencing your method, they are GOING to retest you. That's part of the process.
4) Don't let peoples' negativity affect you. Most people learn that growing up, but I guess occultists just skipped high school or something....

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Next, take the East Indian man who was secluded for 10 days during a scientific test because he claimed he had gone the past 70 years without eating. After two weeks, despite being healthy, the scientists running the studied canceled it because they were sure that he should not be able to go much longer without putting his health in jeopardy (despite having no basis to believe he was becoming unhealthy) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia#Prahlad_Jani_.28.22Mataji.22.29 The ones running the experiment drew no conclusions for all of that time and effort. "Critics" who were not involved basically claimed that the testers messed up somehow (including one guy who thought he was so important that he should be allowed to barge in on the experiment at his leisure).

That's the thing though, science requires proof otherwise.

Scientists have known that people who go without food for a certain time start getting sick and die. So it's only natural that after a while they stop the experiment.

But then, rather than quitting, they should see if he's okay, then start a new experiment and go a little longer. Then longer, then longer, then eventually they just go until whenever.

I've heard about the case, and honestly, what did you expect? These scientists' jaws were still probably gaping wide open by the time the experiment left. Of course they "drew no conclusions".... they've never seen anything like that before! That's all the more reason for people who can do this stuff to STAY IN THE PUBLIC and to, yes, keep bearing the eye of scrutiny. Because science is about retesting. If you do it once then leave..... that's just an anomaly. If you do it, then keep doing it, and doing it, and doing it, you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's true.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 10:38:53 AM
Reply #53

Steve

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So I just missed it, is that it? Should have been around 6 years ago when they were doing demonstrations? They can't even be bothered to move on quarter for me, or read my mind and tell me one thing about myself I've never told anyone before?

Seriously?
Yes, you missed it. Do you honestly expect them to waste their whole lives away handing you something for free that you have not earned, have no right to, yet still demand and expect because... why do you believe that you are entitled to someone else providing you proof for something?

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In my humble opinion, that's bullshit. Professional basketball players have plenty of time to show their skills. Professional skateboarders show their skills all the time.
They get paid for that. Kobok and Prophecy were never paid for their time in doing the classes, at least not that I ever heard. I've never been paid for my time on these forums trying to assist people through posting. I was never paid for the few times that I attempted to "prove" metaphysics to specific people over the internet or in person.

But then, have you asked Prophecy or Kobok to show you anything? Who have you asked to give you proof? (I'm one of those types of people you don't like, who will not attempt to provide proof when asked)

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Then some people come around and talk a good game and have a system that you can develop these abilities, and guess what, they even give demonstrations of their abilities (six years ago) and people are like, "oh yeah, there's your proof the system works!"

It's like, "uh.........." that's not proof. Sorry. No.
Well, first of all, that's not quite how it ended. The majority of people who went through the course were very stoked and talking about how much they had learned. No, that doesn't prove anything to *you* who never went through the course, but it proves something to those who did go through the course (unless I'm misinterpreting what they're saying, or they're lying or deluding themselves).

The point is that at one point someone did do what you wanted, and still you're bashing it because it's not happening right here and now with you.

The only thing that tells me is that you need to get out more and go to the places and people who ARE doing what you want them to do, because there are people and organizations doing it.

http://www.psychic-junkie.com/psychic-schools.html I can't speak for how credibly any of them might be, but they exist, just like you wanted them to :)

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THAT IS WHAT'S BEING DONE. Does it sound ridiculous? BECAUSE IT IS.
Of course this is what's being done. But the opposite is also being done. There ARE people who give demonstrations whenever they feel like it (and no, you're not entitled to one just because you want one). They DO show their skills. And in the end it is STILL the responsibility of the one who wants to learn to prove it to themself because all of the proof from other people is never give the potential student real abilities.

You can slam dunk a basketball? "Great. But that doesn't let me do it." You can't slam dunk a basketball but have spent a lot of time studying people who can and believe you have a method that others can use in order to train to slam dunk? "Great, I'll test it out to see if it works." Or maybe, "I don't care. I want to learn from someone who can do it." You can slam dunk a basketball AND have a method that I can learn in order to do it also? "Great! I'll start practicing right away!" Or maybe even "Hm, that guy over there can slam dunk, and so can that guy, and so can that guy... I'm going to start trying to do it on my own because I want to slam dunk too".

What if there's more than one method that works?

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Your little argument is the cause for so much bullshit and mockery that ONLY goes on in the occult community.
Actually, I was thinking of my short time in "professional martial arts dojos" when I wrote that. Was not specifically aimed at the occult, and I'd say it applies to all scenarios where students and teachers aren't forced into each others' laps (as they are in public education).

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I'm talking about people who say stuff like, "if you study this method, you can do X,Y, and Z. In fact, I've done X,Y, and Z a number of times. I've even done A, B, and C to or in front of other people. In fact, here's a person who say me do H, I, and J. Oh, you want me to do something for you now? No, not really, because that's not what my system is about. If you really want to see it, prove it to yourself."

They are using things as "bait" to draw people in, but they have no intention of actually giving you the bait once you bite the hook. At least fish get a worm before they are mutilated and killed.
Yeah, there are those kinds of people. And then there are the kinds of people who know what they're doing, still give advice to people (not to blow their own horns but just to give the other person helpful advice), and who've been doing it for so long that they're sick and tired of other people who demand things of us and attempt to put us on display and dance for them like we're puppets of some sort. That sort of attitude is not how you get other people to do demonstrations for you.

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Proof has nothing to do with it. Because there is none.
Sure there is. I've seen it. Oh but wait, that doesn't let you see it, right? Well, there's a lot of things in this life that I've never experienced for myself, and even on my dying day there will be. If you want something, YOU go out and get it rather than sitting back and demanding that other people bring it to you on a silver platter EVEN IF there are people out there who are giving all sorts of claims about being able to bring it to you on a silver platter.

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Don't tell me metaphysics will be "slow" to enter into the mainstream. Because that's bullshit. People want to believe.
People may want to believe, but they're still afraid of the perceived social backlash of believing in something like metaphysics BECAUSE so many materialist scientists have gone out of their way to smear the entire idea of anything happening outside of the physical sphere to the point where they even make people feel like their idiots for considering the notion. A lot of people are very taken aback by that. Not everyone, however, and that's why metaphysics has become as popular as it has and why it is still continuing to grow, but it is what I consider a "slow" progression regardless of how fast you want to believe it should be (ie, it has taken the past several decades and I predict it will continue on in a gradual social acceptance for a few decades more).

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As I said before, science follows public opinion.
Ugh, only for poor scientists. Science has always been the study of reality. Those who only cater to public opinion are like fools who dance for a king.

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Or, at the very least, go show the scientists, but on the SCIENTISTS terms. Let them control everything.
What part of this have you not been paying attention to? The SCIENTISTS have studied far more than enough metaphysical occurances to know that "something is up", but many are still unwilling to outright say "it's magic!" because the materialist scientists still hold such a strong sway over the highly credible scientific journals that scientists who believe in metaphysics can be ostracized from the scientific community with a smeared reputation. And for a scientist who gets their funding based on their reputation, that means it can potentially kill their career. Scientific politics; it's sad, but it's true.

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1) don't limit yourself- go public, stay public, keep showing, that way you get the word out and drum up more interest
And get smeared by the scientists, get smeared by the news papers, become a laughing stock of public opinion. There are psychics who did this. There are frauds who have done this. Not something a lot of people are willing to do.

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2) share your method so people can test it themselves
This is the easy one, as most of us already do.

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3) don't just rely on one group of scientists- science is about testing and RETESTING. Even if one group declares you aren't psychic, if you keep doing new stuff and people keep experiencing your method, they are GOING to retest you. That's part of the process.
Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Natasha, in my previous post, was tested a number of times in not-so-rigorous conditions, and her final test was also a not-very rigorous condition yet the people running that final test publicly stated that Natasha would only be considered for further testing if she could get 4/7 hits, and when she failed they made it out as though she was never psychic at all, had no psychic abilities, and was not worth further study by anyone.

Nina Kulagina, on the other hand, continued to be tested and tested and tested by the world's top scientists of the time. What did that get her? An early death from a heart condition, and a disgraced public image.

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4) Don't let peoples' negativity affect you. Most people learn that growing up, but I guess occultists just skipped high school or something
What you're talking about is setting up an image in the public sphere, attempting to take on celebrity status, battling against those who WILL attempt to topple you, and ALSO teaching people how to do what you do.

Why bother? Look. Here we are at a small internet site where many people have learned many things. Those who WANT to learn go searching, and they end up at any number of websites just like this one. Some of those sites don't teach anything useful, but how do we know that anyone here does? Through the proof that you demand, and which is occassionally given, or at least it used to be several years ago. I don't attend the chatrooms anymore, so I would be neither surprised if the people who do still go there have stopped bothering with people who just go in and demand proof, nor surprised if they continue to give proofs whenever they feel up to it.

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Scientists have known that people who go without food for a certain time start getting sick and die. So it's only natural that after a while they stop the experiment.
Four days and they stopped the experiment for one lady who was showing strong signs of health problems. 10 days for this guy and he's *perfectly fine* according to their own statements and records, yet they still cut the experiment due to an unreasonable fear.

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But then, rather than quitting, they should see if he's okay, then start a new experiment and go a little longer. Then longer, then longer, then eventually they just go until whenever.
Yeah, that would have been great, but they didn't. The scientists did not perform rigorous testing, ended their own tests, and even after all of that didn't even bother to give a positive review but just left it at a neutral review.

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That's all the more reason for people who can do this stuff to STAY IN THE PUBLIC and to, yes, keep bearing the eye of scrutiny. Because science is about retesting.
The guy who was being tested was not the one who withdrew. Nobody else tested him... If you want to say that we should get out there and get tested, then also tell the scientists to stop being pussies who back off when they're afraid of a little negative scrutiny. But then, that gets back in to their "bread and butter", as a negative reputation can kill their careers.

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If you do it, then keep doing it, and doing it, and doing it, you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's true.
That's what it's like in other fields, but in the parapsychology field there is a bias against that in public cases. They test and retest and retest until a fail comes up, and then they parade that failure around as heralding the death of metaphysics. It's happened many times already. I'm not talking theory, these are actual journals and reports and experimenter conclusions. It's a bias that parapsychologics and metaphysicists have been fighting against for the past 50ish years.

Nina Kulagina: Retested and retested for many years. Scientists who tested her seemed to regarded her as the real deal but were to afraid to issue such a public proclaimation. Her reputation was destroyed by the ones who report events, and who lied about her.

Natasha Demkina: Was tested several times with positive results before a final test where the organizers claimed she was not worth retesting because she failed ONE test.

Prahlad Jani: Was not given the benefit of rigorous retesting. Was not even given the benefit of a single complete test the first time. After rereading the wiki article I linked to I guess they did give him a second test which lasted for 15 days and the reviewers did give him a generally good review.

Taking a look at three case studies, it's not as easy as you think it should be out in the public eye. However, right here in the not-so-public eye we have all of the teaching that a person who is interested could want. And occasionally proofs are given, but not on demand and it is just as unreasonable to assume that we should give proofs on demand as it is for those who want to teach others to assume that they should never have to give proofs. There is a middle ground, where at times proofs are given, just not to everyone every time it is demanded.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

July 01, 2010, 11:36:56 AM
Reply #54

Searching

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Why do occultists think they are somehow above the laws of common sense? Why can they make claims without proof?

Steve- the rest of my response is in my thread http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=16042.msg171461#new
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:57:14 AM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 11:59:28 AM
Reply #55

Wren

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No one has a right to demand anything from another. Privilege and risk always play a role in human interaction. Scientists and occultists both are humans and have human flaws. A lot of occultists may call their studies Life Works, but that doesn't mean that they can just magic themselves money. People need money to continue to live in Wetern society, unless you are Prahlad Jani, which means that there is honest risk in losing face.

July 01, 2010, 12:04:06 PM
Reply #56

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No one has a right to demand anything from another.

Really? Because we have stuff called human rights, which every person is supposed to be allowed to have.... so in a sense, we are "demanding" that everyone be giving and respect another person's human rights.......

More directly related to the situation- if you make a claim, other people are within their rights to demand proof.

In fact, I think it's the other way around- if you make a claim, it is required that you provide proof. There is no responsibility that other people inherently have to validate your claim. If they WANT to investigate it for themselves, that's fine. But they do not have any responsibility to do so.

It's rather irksome that so many people in the metaphysics (and martial, and a few others) communities seem to think they have no responsibility to provide proof. That it is somehow other peoples' responsibility to verify their claims..... And when they are called on it, try to turn it around on the people asking for proof. Proof should not have to be asked for. It should be freely given in order to substantiate a claim, and that is the case in almost every legitimate field.

Seriously, where did that come from?
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:04:56 PM
Reply #57

michael.25

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Ok, I'm going to apologise in advance for not reading the whole thread just now (I got through the first three pages or so) but i saw the part of the discussion on proving magic and "TeH p0W44RZ!!!1!(tm)" to the world in general and I wanted to throw this in for good measure. Sorry if someone's already posted about this without me seeing it but I've not got loads of time right now so...  

Personally I was always drawn to the idea about proving magic to the world and saying to everyone "look! Look at what you're REALLY capable of when you master yourself!  Look at what it REALLY means to be human!" and for a long time I couldn't understand why the hell anyone who could do these kinds of things wouldn't make a point of showing it to the world and waking humanity up to the truth of it all...

Then I got to know a bit more about what it means when they say that humanity isn't  quite ready to know just yet, and how a humanity that isn't ready for such things tends to react and I began to understand that there are very good reasons for silence, two of which I'm going to mention now.

1:  It's bad to screw peoples spiritual evolution just because you'd prefer a world where you can be a magician without having to lie to almost everyone you meet on a daily basis when they ask you what you do in your spare time (even being decidedly economical with the truth is still a lie :) ), or just because you want a bit of recognition for all the work you've put into your training.  Meaning that since the best thing for most peoples spiritual evolution seems to be to live a normal life, specifically one where they're unaided by any ability to manipulate the subtle planes (and thereby be able to spend their lives constantly dodgeing all of the difficulty that life throws their way, thereby missing the lessons that they have to learn and robbing themselves of the chance to grow properly), it would be entirely unethical to go and throw the reality of magic into everyone's faces and completely spoil their ability to learn how to get by in life with only their own character to aid them, especially when the reason for doing so would only be for the benefit of some magicians getting a bit more of a feel good factor in their own lives.

2:  That one thing humanity has proven over and over again throughout it's history is it's ability to absolutely destroy anything it's really afraid of, and believe you me, when an academy of sciences goes on international television and says that yes, all tests are conclusive and there are indeed people who can draw a symbol in the air and speak a word and call a hurricane powerful enough to level an entire city, or that can merge with intelligences and call the ocean tide to rise twelve meters and wipe out sixty percent of a continent (that IS the realistic implications of the ability to call the tide after all, especially when it's a given that people, and certainly the media would ignore the fact that  someone immature enough to actually do that would never get the power in the first place), one of the very first things you will see, at least after about one or two wtf days, will be murders, lots of murders.

It's not too long ago that they used to lynch people for being black, a mere two years ago since the last person (that I know of, last one that hit the media anyway) was burned as a witch, just imagine what would happen around the world when science actually turns around and says that all this is true.  Imagine the difference in the hatred when it's not just something like a difference in skin colour or nationality, but is actually something concrete such as the ability to place thoughts into other peoples minds, manipulate them without them knowing, project into their consciousness and view all their memories, their past, the future that they have mapped out for them, all their little secrets, the affairs they had with the intern, the fact that they rape their kids, that they use child prostitutes on holiday, to know their bank account information, to know what they THINK about anything and anyone, to know all the military/political secrets in the minds of the people at the top of the various national ladders, to know the secrets of the various mafia families, to be able to break someone's mind without any evidence, to kill without any possible risk from law enforcement, to destroy an unborn child with a look and a thought...  If it seems like I'm only listing the bad side to magic then you'd be right, but that's the only side which is going to get mentioned by the media and it's fear mongering for ratings marathon which will start a couple of days after the scientific confirmation, and from that point on, everytime something happens to someone, no matter how mundane or innocent, there'll be a lynch mob to fix the problem.  How many days do you think it'd take before the first wiccan coven is found gangraped and murdered (they would be a horribly easy target for a mob, especially an opportunistic one considering the fact that most wiccans are women in their 20's), how many thousands do you think would die worldwide in the first month before the goverments really got a handle on the situation?

It's one thing to convince a few people that magic is real, it's one thing to convince a few thousand people who are already open to these ideas that the world is more than physical and that such a knowledge can be used in interesting ways, but it's an immensly different thing to convince the entirety of humanity (as it currently is) that a man can gain such advantages over his fellow man and that the man in question may well be someone you already know and who may already know you far far better than you ever thought possible.

In my opinion, if magicians simply got regulated to hell and back by the powers that be, and ended up being treated like convicts, having to take regular polygraph tests about their recent actions, being mistrusted continuously etc... Then we'd have gotten off lightly.  Humanity's progressed a bit in the last few hundred years, or even the last fifty years, but we've not come that far just yet.  And personally speaking, I wouldn't want to be the one with all those deaths on my head just because I wanted people to look at me, knowing what I do and say "look! That's one of them magicians, oh I don't half respect them! Takes a lot of work training like they do!"

Edit: typo.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 12:19:07 PM by michael.25 »

July 01, 2010, 12:09:05 PM
Reply #58

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Michael- if you don't mind, could you repost this in the "proof" thread? It's a good post :)


While I overall understand what you are saying, all I have to say is:

The benefits far outweigh the risks. People are willing to accept this stuff. Look at how many people jump at religion and magic tricks and fantasy stories. Because they want it to be real and in their own lives.

Also, think of all the people who are sick and dying right now. It really, REALLY hurts me when I hear people talk about situations in which they've cured cancer or HIV or something like that. Because that is such a serious issue, there are so many people who are seriously suffering from that. Do you know how much your ability to heal, and your ability to teach others can heal, can help the world? And you are holding that back?

You either better be a fake, or have a damn good reason.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

July 01, 2010, 12:24:52 PM
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We don't have human rights, we have a series of priveledges that are supposed to be universally recognized when dealing with other people. They aren't. They aren't real. They are just words. As a word, "rights" helps to make society look more organized and less authoritarian. Claims don't have to be substantiated. Some claims quite frankly can't be substantiated, even though they are true. This is a community, and in a community, you generally don't ask for proof that your neighbors dog has died. Their is a common sense limit to what you can take at face value, but don't be going "everyone is lying to themselves," or you're going to end up with egomania, paranoa, or a persecution complex. On the other hand, this is a metaphysical community, so the common sense limit is going to be what is understandable and reasonable to the individual. I understand that you are talking about those who give methods, but at the same time, you are attacking the pillars of this virtual community, and thus you invoke the community. *ire* *ire*