Author Topic: Fate: Homemade recipies  (Read 2151 times)

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September 23, 2008, 08:08:38 PM
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Forg

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This is an explanation given to me by kyo with a mixing of my own interpretations and thought processes on the subject of fate and karma as a whole. Firstly I'll discuss my own purposes for coming to these conclusions and then the aforementioned explanation of fate.

First I have been trying to find a way in my mind to rationalize an idea of karma that fits with the way I have experienced the world. Having studied multiple views on the subject I've been a bit mucked up on how I feel. For those who do not know, I am a buddhist, and due to this, I do not have a finely laid out belief in God as a whole or multiple gods for that matter. As far as I am concerned, if there is some being that exists as a god, there effect on what occurs to me in this life or the after life is no different than my interaction with any man walking down the street. Cutting that long train of thought short, this leads me to want to believe in karma in the sense that it is not a tool for divine judgment. That is to say, for my karma to be good or bad is not a reflection of my actions being inherently good or bad. My ideal view of karma would be karma is merely reaction due to an action with no inherent 'good' or 'bad' result.

There are many issues I have come across with my 'ideal view of karma'. Namely, that as I understood it, we are tools of fate. That no matter how we might try, we are set to encounter or experience specific things. This conflicted because I was unsure of what decided what we should experience or encounter. If not some divine judgment, then what? That is when this wonderful idea was thrown at me.

Fate is like a watch. It is an mesh of many gears leading toward the same result (ie. time). Each of these gears represents the karma of a god, action of a man, occurrence, or intent that come to meet each other at some point.

Ex. You talk to a man reading a newspaper on the street, as a result, he does not read something in the paper he would have otherwise. You have made an imprint on his 'fate'.

So essentially this makes fate basically a grander version of karma, or simply a convergence of karma.

This all works in my head, but it is all but a solution. It certainly is the easy explanation. I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on any bit of this.

Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

September 23, 2008, 09:10:31 PM
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peter_pan

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Is it a buddhist view that fate controls us? or just that we must be faced with certain situations? i appologize for my ignorance
"...There is simply The Way, and he who follows it must know when to act and in what way to act.  Sometimes it is to the right, other times to the left.  An initiate acknowledges no difference...." Veos.

September 23, 2008, 09:15:10 PM
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peter_pan

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i mean... i really dont want to believe that... its all predetermined and that no matter what path we choose... the experience's result will lead me down the path that another one would lead me. It just makes me feel... even smaller than i am
"...There is simply The Way, and he who follows it must know when to act and in what way to act.  Sometimes it is to the right, other times to the left.  An initiate acknowledges no difference...." Veos.

September 23, 2008, 09:19:55 PM
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Vinncent

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1. If there exists "things that should happen", then it should stand to reason that there is something ("God") that decides what should and should not happen (fate). One could also say, "Well, 'things that should happen' could simply be set by inherent principles in the universe", which begs the question, "Why are those principles part of the universe?", which is most easily answered by, "God said so."

2. Since I also believe we're destined to be in certain situations, it raises the question, "After we are in a certain situation, are we bound to react to it in a set way?" If the answer is no, then it slightly screws up the entire idea of fate. In your example, if you talk to man reading the newspaper, and he decides "I'm going to ignore this person", then you wouldn't stop him from reading his newspaper, regardless of your part in the situation.
\\\"Only a fool quotes himself\\\" - Vinncent

The history of the world is but the biography of great men.

September 23, 2008, 09:30:36 PM
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Forg

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Is it a buddhist view that fate controls us? or just that we must be faced with certain situations? i appologize for my ignorance

Neither actually. Buddhism is based more around the ideas of progress through introspection and other such methods, and that karma is the result of our actions. Of course there is more too it, but such things as fate outside of a sense that I described here would not fit a buddhist mold. What we face is purely a representation of the choices we make.

Traditions vary through the different schools of buddhism.

i mean... i really dont want to believe that... its all predetermined and that no matter what path we choose... the experience's result will lead me down the path that another one would lead me. It just makes me feel... even smaller than i am

It's not something many people prefer to believe, but just as any person is, you are a result of the people you have met and things you have been taught. In part, your life was and is heavily based upon the path another would lead you. You are indeed small, but no less significant than any other person, plant, or otherwise.

From reading your other posts and the like this seems like a good time to encourage you to keep your ego in check. ^_^
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

September 23, 2008, 09:32:07 PM
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peter_pan

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indeed. definately having belief issues... thanks.
"...There is simply The Way, and he who follows it must know when to act and in what way to act.  Sometimes it is to the right, other times to the left.  An initiate acknowledges no difference...." Veos.

September 23, 2008, 09:38:41 PM
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Big Boss

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The way I see it, from a Taoist perspective, one that has only recently (in the past couple years) begun to believe in karma and reincarnation, is that there is no "should."

There are only things that happen. Causes and effects. The divinity is simply the Tao, the flow of our "fates" if you will. There is no single direction for our lives, but there is direction.

At best, "should" is the collective unconscious of all of our souls and the overall direction it leads our lives. Other than that, there is nothing but Tao.

Reading back over this as I review, it seems very escapist. Like I'm ignoring all the arguments for karma and just putting up my wall of esoteric Tao nonsense, but in my mind at least, it truly does make sense and explain everything. I can't really comprehend a singular all-knowing God, and therefore, "God" cannot have cognitive capacity. Perhaps he can be like an anthill, where the behavior of the individual ants makes up the colony. Either way, as a colony made of us, or simply an entity that IS all of us, then there is no clearly defined "should" but merely a trend.
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September 23, 2008, 09:41:53 PM
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Forg

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1. If there exists "things that should happen", then it should stand to reason that there is something ("God") that decides what should and should not happen (fate). One could also say, "Well, 'things that should happen' could simply be set by inherent principles in the universe", which begs the question, "Why are those principles part of the universe?", which is most easily answered by, "God said so."

2. Since I also believe we're destined to be in certain situations, it raises the question, "After we are in a certain situation, are we bound to react to it in a set way?" If the answer is no, then it slightly screws up the entire idea of fate. In your example, if you talk to man reading the newspaper, and he decides "I'm going to ignore this person", then you wouldn't stop him from reading his newspaper, regardless of your part in the situation.

I'm going to start with 2, both for the irony and because it makes sense. We are bound to react in a certain way because we are a product of what came before that time. Our decisions, emotions, and actions based off of things earlier in our lives. Now it's arguable that we are certainly going to act one way or the other because of this, and that we would not. I'm not really certain how to validate either. This model of fate does not necessary limit the sense of free will but almost redefines fate to a sense that what we choose eventually results in this mass of karma that is the end result. Fate.

Maybe that's what you were trying to say about the idea of fate being screwed up?

As for number 1, I am not of the belief that there are things that 'should' happen. Were I though, I would agree.

The way I see it, from a Taoist perspective, one that has only recently (in the past couple years) begun to believe in karma and reincarnation, is that there is no "should."

There are only things that happen. Causes and effects. The divinity is simply the Tao, the flow of our "fates" if you will. There is no single direction for our lives, but there is direction.

At best, "should" is the collective unconscious of all of our souls and the overall direction it leads our lives. Other than that, there is nothing but Tao.

Reading back over this as I review, it seems very escapist. Like I'm ignoring all the arguments for karma and just putting up my wall of esoteric Tao nonsense, but in my mind at least, it truly does make sense and explain everything. I can't really comprehend a singular all-knowing God, and therefore, "God" cannot have cognitive capacity. Perhaps he can be like an anthill, where the behavior of the individual ants makes up the colony. Either way, as a colony made of us, or simply an entity that IS all of us, then there is no clearly defined "should" but merely a trend.

Well, I agree in the sense that essentially what we follow is the flow of the universe, ie. the Tao. One way or another we move with or against this energy and are eventually taken with it in death, in short.

When I say 'should' I am in essence speaking referring to the result of karma. The 'effect' essentially. In any case, it's certainly not all nonsense.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 09:53:49 PM by Forg »
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

September 23, 2008, 10:12:49 PM
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Vinncent

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Going from 2: Actually that model completely dictates fate after the very first move you make in the universe. If you are completely bound by your previous actions, that dictate how you're going to act in present and future situations, then the only real free will you have is your first action, that isn't dictated by your actions before it.

Back to 1: If something is "fated" to happen, then it means that whatever power in control of fate thought that, "This should happen". If it didn't think that "it should happen", then it would have "fated" what it thought -should- happen.
\\\"Only a fool quotes himself\\\" - Vinncent

The history of the world is but the biography of great men.

September 23, 2008, 11:07:33 PM
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Shadow_Dragon

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I don't think Big Boss means you are completely controlled by your first action- just what happens to you is the result of what has happened in the past. Which, I am not sure if I completely agree with or not.
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. -Sun Tzu

When the Mind is clear and still, all things under Heaven fall into place. -Lao Tzu

Drink your cup alone, though it taste of blood and tears, and praise God for the gift of taste. -Almustafa

September 24, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
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Forg

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Going from 2: Actually that model completely dictates fate after the very first move you make in the universe. If you are completely bound by your previous actions, that dictate how you're going to act in present and future situations, then the only real free will you have is your first action, that isn't dictated by your actions before it.

Back to 1: If something is "fated" to happen, then it means that whatever power in control of fate thought that, "This should happen". If it didn't think that "it should happen", then it would have "fated" what it thought -should- happen.

Yes your first move would be the only thing not dictated by fate, but you are certainly not bound by your previous actions. It is as it's said, we are a product of our experiences. We still have the power of contemplation in order to decide how we act and while we are bound by what we know in order to make a decision we still make any of the choices. I suppose whatever is chosen would be fate no matter what. This is terribly confusing, but still seems to make sense.

In regard to the second point, this still does not require some other being to decide how fate should progress. This isn't necessarily a counterpoint, just a point.
Be your own light, your own refuge. Believe only that which you test for yourself. Do not accept authority merely because it comes from a great man, or is written in a sacred book, for truth is different for each man and woman." -- Buddha

September 24, 2008, 06:05:42 PM
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I was just having a conversation about karma  :P.

I like to think of it as a river flowing towards enlightenment, if you drift out of the current you are pushed back along the path, how it does this is not defined, its a force which manifests in a many ways.
“And you shall drink your cup alone, though it taste of blood and tears, and praise God for the gift of taste.” -Almustafa, Garden of the Prophet.

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur