Poll

Are You practicing the Steps in Initiaion into Hermetics?

Yes, very strictly.
47 (15.8%)
Yes, mixed with my other practices.
112 (37.7%)
Kinda, of and on again.
53 (17.8%)
No, it doesn't fit with me.
49 (16.5%)
No, What is IIH?
28 (9.4%)
No, don't have the time.
8 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 297

Author Topic: Who is Practicing the IIH?  (Read 571833 times)

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January 05, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
Reply #450

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I have seen few of the challenges and I think I know why "being famous" is one of the requirements to be able to undergo the challenge.
...
But he certainly wants to expose frauds and help people get rid of them and that's how I see his show. As the fraud exposure.

I think this is an important point to consider.

His game seems more about to prevent frauds from taking advantage of people, and he aims to do so on a larger scale. From what I have heard (yeah yeah, hearsay) he used to accept pretty much all claims for investigation. But of course, everybody and their brother was applying thinking they were psychic. So he narrowed down the criteria.

He's probably done his own cost benefit analysis, and has decided that going after the big fish is a better use of time and resources than going after every small fish.

So people like Sylvia Browne are probably higher on his priority than a local psychic charging $25 for a palm reading.

Quote
Do you want to get to Randi's challenge? Be fraud.

Want to get to Randi's challenge? Start the word going that you're an authentic psychic, and prove it. Local newspaper, tv, the internet. Not that hard to get the buzz going. If you've got the actual skill. And the follow through.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

January 05, 2012, 03:37:01 PM
Reply #451

trismegistos

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Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy :P (me included)


If I show you that magical power is real, you chase magical power.  Magical power only stems as a result from chasing God-Union, but my proof of power gives you zero interest in God Union, it just makes you chase the power that comes with God Union, but when gnosis/samadhi is attained, you have very little care of using such power EXCEPT in furthering the attainment of God Union or helping your fellow man.  Therfore, showing power is real does nothing to cultivate the desire for God-Union of which such power is merely a side effect, and not the goal.  

That is the problem, people lie to themselves.  They don't want God Union and liberation, they want power, and for that very reason they will attain neither, at least not to any impressive extent (as far as power goes).   If you were interested in God Union, you would care nothing for power or seeing it proven to pursue a spiritual path, you would be satisfied if you never developed a single power so long as you were slowly becoming more and more God-like.  Yogis develop powers, they call them siddhis.  People don't associate Yoga with magical feats even though they exist just as much in Yoga as they do in Magic.  Yet they don't go about saying "doing this cultivates this siddhi" because it is not how you achieve the Siddhi, you achieve the siddhi through your own evolution towards God Union, and not the other way around where striving to develop Siddhis cause evolution towards God Union.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:45:25 PM by trismegistos »

January 05, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
Reply #452

trismegistos

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Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.

You are correct, however the Probationer class is free, and upon it's completion one is allowed to visit the Teachers, and indeed are encouraged to so that they can decide what they want to do having more knowledge of what the system is about and what results it yields by seeing 2 incarnations of the teachings themselves.  It is said that the probationer class will help you decide if you want to pursue Theurgy or some other system, and that with the aspirant class you will know you want to pursue Theurgy, but the aspirant class will allow you to decide if you want to pursue it under the particular lineage of TDS or some other lineage.  The Aspirant Flow is what constitutes the actual school itself when you are "officially" a student, not that you are considered any lesser as an Aspirant really.

January 05, 2012, 04:05:54 PM
Reply #453

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Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy :P (me included)


If I show you that magical power is real, you chase magical power.  Magical power only stems as a result from chasing God-Union, but my proof of power gives you zero interest in God Union, it just makes you chase the power that comes with God Union, but when gnosis/samadhi is attained, you have very little care of using such power EXCEPT in furthering the attainment of God Union or helping your fellow man.  Therfore, showing power is real does nothing to cultivate the desire for God-Union of which such power is merely a side effect, and not the goal.  

That is the problem, people lie to themselves.  They don't want God Union and liberation, they want power, and for that very reason they will attain neither, at least not to any impressive extent (as far as power goes).   If you were interested in God Union, you would care nothing for power or seeing it proven to pursue a spiritual path, you would be satisfied if you never developed a single power so long as you were slowly becoming more and more God-like.  Yogis develop powers, they call them siddhis.  People don't associate Yoga with magical feats even though they exist just as much in Yoga as they do in Magic.  Yet they don't go about saying "doing this cultivates this siddhi" because it is not how you achieve the Siddhi, you achieve the siddhi through your own evolution towards God Union, and not the other way around where striving to develop Siddhis cause evolution towards God Union.

Yes, yes.

"If you want it, you don't get it. If you don't want it, you'll get it, but never really care about using it."
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

January 05, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
Reply #454

LeZebra

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Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.

You are correct, however the Probationer class is free, and upon it's completion one is allowed to visit the Teachers, and indeed are encouraged to so that they can decide what they want to do having more knowledge of what the system is about and what results it yields by seeing 2 incarnations of the teachings themselves.  It is said that the probationer class will help you decide if you want to pursue Theurgy or some other system, and that with the aspirant class you will know you want to pursue Theurgy, but the aspirant class will allow you to decide if you want to pursue it under the particular lineage of TDS or some other lineage.  The Aspirant Flow is what constitutes the actual school itself when you are "officially" a student, not that you are considered any lesser as an Aspirant really.

Ok so after the probationer class, the aspirant class/flow is not free.
Think outside the box to change what's inside it.

January 05, 2012, 08:26:09 PM
Reply #455

trismegistos

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Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.

January 05, 2012, 09:47:03 PM
Reply #456

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Quote from: Searching
Quote from: Steve
You can't verify nina kulagina's experiments for yourself and therefore they're invalid? Bullshit
Part of the scientific method involves verification and repeatability of experiments by third parties.
And what experiments have you or Randi done in order to verify/invalidate any of these?

Quote
If there is someone who has developed a theory as to how someone can fake an experiment given the set of protocols that the experiment has, then, well, part of the method of scientific inquiry demands that a study be done which can account for that variable, to see if telekinetic results would still be had.
No, fuck that. REASONABLE doubts and demans SHOULD be followed up with controls to eliminate those factors, but once those factors are controlled then harping on them again and again benefits noone. I can throw claims of doubt on gravity; does that make it any less real? NO. You need to learn the difference between making a claim of doubt, and that claim actually mattering.

Quote
So what we have left is someone who's vetted by a lot of people as being legit (though keep in mind that just because a lot of people agree, doesn't mean they're right- the fallacious argumentum ad populum), while at the same time there are variables at play that haven't been tested for.
So once again, which factors have yet to be controlled? Name ONE.

I'll start:

1) Strings.
Controls in place to reduce/eliminate these factors:

-Nina was physically searched for strings by scientists.
-Putting bowls over the objects.
-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

2) Magnets.
Controls:

-Once again, Nina was physically searched
-Non-magnetic materials, such as matches and cigarettes, which were provided by the testers, were used.
-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

3) Static electricity.
Controls:

-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

Any others?

Quote
So it's not very hard to see why Randi wins more people to the side of "non-believers" than Kulagina wins to the side of "believers".
Yes, because of a known psychological activity whereby people who bitch/complain about things loudly tend to bring more weak-minded people under their wings because those people are afraid of drawing the attention/insults of the person who is complaining. The effect is magnified when the person isn't just complaining, but is being fairly rude.

Quote
You might not know that scientists were also at the forefront of studying Uri Geller, claiming that he was a legitimate psychic.You know who was at the forefront of exposing THAT psychic? Oh, right, James Randi. Huh.
Oh, James Randi debunked Uri Geller, did he? How?

I've seen a lot of claims by Randi about how "Uri Geller is performing stage magic, not real magic" and note that Randi uses his favourite logical fallacy of "I can perform this feat with stage magic, therefore Uri used stage magic." But going over the wikipedia entry, the only point at which Randi was actually involved, in any real manner, in thwarting Uri Geller was in instructing the Tonight Show guy not to let Uri or his aides near the props that were going to be used in the show. Oh, and in conjunction with the UK Sun newspaper by counter-claiming that Uri's predictions of winning sports teams are wrong (I don't have the data on me, but I've seen several other people *prove* Randi to be a liar, so I'm not going to believe him at his word). Other than that, Randi is all claims.

You might not know it, but SOME scientists were convinced that Uri was the real deal: Russel Targ and Harold Puthoff, if those names ring a bell. Oh, and what's this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller#Scientific_testing If you read it carefully, you'll notice it's a big adult spat. Two scientists claim he's good; Randi claims they had terrible procedure; another scientist claims he's bad; the first two scientists claim the third scientist has terrible procedure. And then real critiques(!) of experimental procedures.

Oh, and then that last paragraph in the scientific testing where... a stage magician (check the citations) got Uri to perform and noticed no trickery? *Double checks that* Indeed, that is what it says.

Quote
You just say that scientists can be fooled, so wouldn't it make even MORE sense to listen to the claims of people who make their living fooling people???
So you will listen to Mr Cox, who, unlike Randi, actually tested Uri?

Quote
Also, Randi is ONE stage magician. The weight of his words do NOT out-match the weight of many many scientists.

He's not the only one offering money....
Hey hey, look at that. Something I've seen before. And I checked into a couple of them and found similar bullshit to what Randi's test was doing (control was purely in the hands of the people offering the money, offering no fairness nor real scientific controls to the people wanting to be tested, as well as claims by claimants of insulting demeanors in a few cases) so I didn't bother looking further. Please enlighten me as to the types of tests that have been failed and what makes those tests so air-tight proceduraly that we should accept them without counter-questioning them in the same manner that you do for real scientific tests :)

Quote
Right, well, sorry being a professional trickster isn't credible enough for you when it comes to thinking up ways to rig an experiment....
1) They're not the only ones who can think up those methods, 2) There are many scientists who have a keen enough interest in stage magic to have actually gotten into it a bit *unlike Randi who has no scientific credentials what-so-ever*, and 3) the scientists actually do listen to good stage magicians; Randi is just an asshole who likes to spout off his own bullshit about how's he's so fucking important, without realizing that the scientists are taking the same critiques into account via other sources.

Quote
Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......
I don't know anything about Jersey Shore, and the quick scanning over of wikipedia doesn't list anything about psychic phenomenon. Please explain why this is relevant, because I honestly don't understand.

Quote
Right, that's why trivia is so popular, because people like going "oh hey, that's a fun fact which runs counter to popular opinion, I'm going to disregard it..."
OR they disregard it if they're unwilling to accept it. Go back to the "what they want to believe in".

As an aside, for shits and giggles and out of pure curiosity, for a short while a few years back, I made up completely bald-faced lies and told them to people just to see if they'd believe me on my word alone, without even attempting to give any evidences or clarifications. Things like "did you know that the American President spent some time as a spy in Russia?" and got it all the way up to something like "Did you hear on the news last week that the American Government finally admitted to having long term communications with aliens?" before someone DIDN'T believe me on my word alone. So, No, you don't need to address the concerns that people have in order for them to believe you.

So, Randi can make up whatever claims he wants, I'd still rather look to the facts.

Quote
Right. That's why everyone believes that psychic phenomena are real and vetted by science and that everyone can train to do them.

I'm surprised. Global warming is STILL making more of a splash than psychic phenomena. Guess it's not as cool as the weather...
Because science is not One Pool of Knowledge, but is a large smattering of "accepted theories, facts and experiments", with the Materialistic Scientists still having the largest mouthpieces in order to shovel their "accepted theories, facts and experiments" into the minds of whoever's listening. In fact, try a little experiment in telling a bald-faced lie: perpetuate the idea that ALL psychic phenomenon can be explained by electro-magnetic phenomenon, and then try to convince the same disbelievers in the potential for psychic phenomenon on the basis of explaining it via EMR. More people will be willing to believe this because it fits with their current World Model.

Quote
That was a summary of the research that Kobok provided me. You were in those threads, I'm sure you can find it if you go back and look.....
As I recall, it was Ray Hyman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman
If they were in those threads, then yes I can. Thank you.

Quote
Wow, pulling a bit of a James Randi there, huh? How about you actually read the reports, rather than providing us with your ignorant opinion just from casually hearing a summary of a study from a random person on the internet, hm?
Yes, pulling a Randi! And now to do something very UnRandi-like: I'm going to go find and read those reports! :P (If I can find them)


Quote from: Melchizedek
I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.
I love to say this Mel, but not everything of value is 1) online, or 2) known to society at large.

Quote from: Searching
Yes, yes.

"If you want it, you don't get it. If you don't want it, you'll get it, but never really care about using it."
Yes ^_^

Quote from: trismegistos
Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.
Hopefully not by getting it from the parents' wallets XD

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 05, 2012, 10:34:16 PM
Reply #457

Searching

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And what experiments have you or Randi done in order to verify/invalidate any of these?

Did you miss the part about Nina Kulagina not being around to do just that?

Unless you can point the way to another known telekinesis user that either myself or Randi can investigate, and who would actually be willing to, you know, demonstrate under certain conditions?

I'm not holding my breath. And you've made your opinion very clear about people "demanding" others "jump through hoops".

Quote
I've seen a lot of claims by Randi about how "Uri Geller is performing stage magic, not real magic" and note that Randi uses his favourite logical fallacy of "I can perform this feat with stage magic, therefore Uri used stage magic."

I think it's more along the lines of "I can think of ways to perform this feat using stage magic, let's check and make sure that this person isn't using trickery... oh, that's interesting, this person does not want to undergo an investigation... hmm, that's interesting.... I think it's far more likely that they are using some sort of trickery which is in line with our modern understanding of the physical world than it is that they are using some metaphysical phenomenon to accomplish such a feat. I consider it highly suspect that they refuse to accept any investigation as they go about letting people (literally) buy into their claims. I consider that highly suspect and it shoots up several red flags about fraud, and would highly discourage people from buying into this person as much as possible."

Of course, as people of the internet, we know how an original idea can get inflamed and blown out of proportion. Egos get involved. Randi, I believe, is certainly a prime example.

I think he starts from a legitimate place. Doesn't handle it too well on a personal level but... not inherently wrong.

As someone who started out being duped by a fraudulent martial artist, I got on board with investigating martial arts lineages and other claims before learning from any teachers. I didn't get into the whole game of publicly shaming or seeking to expose teachers. I thought it was a matter of education, learned a lot about culture, history, and things of that nature. And truth be told, there are a LOT of red flags that go up around the insular rhetorical strategies used by the metaphysical community which are the very same strategies used by fraudulent martial artists, and are also used by, in some extreme cases, cult leaders!

Quote
But going over the wikipedia entry, the only point at which Randi was actually involved, in any real manner, in thwarting Uri Geller was in instructing the Tonight Show guy not to let Uri or his aides near the props that were going to be used in the show. Oh, and in conjunction with the UK Sun newspaper by counter-claiming that Uri's predictions of winning sports teams are wrong (I don't have the data on me, but I've seen several other people *prove* Randi to be a liar, so I'm not going to believe him at his word). Other than that, Randi is all claims.

You can actually watch that bit on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo

Quote
You might not know it, but SOME scientists were convinced that Uri was the real deal: Russel Targ and Harold Puthoff, if those names ring a bell. Oh, and what's this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller#Scientific_testing If you read it carefully, you'll notice it's a big adult spat. Two scientists claim he's good; Randi claims they had terrible procedure; another scientist claims he's bad; the first two scientists claim the third scientist has terrible procedure. And then real critiques(!) of experimental procedures.

Oh, and then that last paragraph in the scientific testing where... a stage magician (check the citations) got Uri to perform and noticed no trickery? *Double checks that* Indeed, that is what it says.

Oh, dang. Guess Uri Geller is the real deal. Fuck this shit. I'm off to be his disciple.

.............

Quote
so I didn't bother looking further.

Good for you. Make up your mind that something is bullshit, and then just write it all off.

Quote
Please enlighten me

*Steve hat on* I don't know who you think you are, that you can just demand that I tell you anything. Do some of your own work and investigate yourself.

*Steve hat off* *aggregate metaphysical community hat on* "Oh, you've done a lot of research you say, but you're still not buying it? Well you haven't done the right research. Oh, you have, have you? Well you obviously just aren't thinking logically, because the evidence is already there."

*aggregate metaphysical community hat off*

That kind of rhetoric will just drive you mad, won't it? :)

Quote
Quote
Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......
I don't know anything about Jersey Shore, and the quick scanning over of wikipedia doesn't list anything about psychic phenomenon. Please explain why this is relevant, because I honestly don't understand.

You asked why anyone would want to go on television to basically be made fun of. Jersey Shore is basically as show where the cast looks like a bunch of morons. Really, the lowest common denominator of society. They make ridiculous amounts of money for getting wasted, having sex, waking up, getting wasted, looking like a bunch of idiots, waking up, getting wasted, etc etc etc etc.

So being the star of a reality show itself has its own monetary perks which would interest a lot of people. Even at the cost of looking like an idiot should the producers decide to get creative with what gets cut together. And there's no guarantee that would even happen.

Now on TOP of the monetary incentive, there is the added bonus, for someone with real skill and the actual desire to get people to know its real, the fact that, with attention focused on them, they could actually go about doing things which could get people looking at paranormal phenomena more seriously.

And once they reached that stage, they'd pretty much qualify to get Randi's Challenge, then the full social scrutiny would be on Randi, to ensure the fair treatment in front of a world wide audience.

And then that last part was sarcasm. Because, you know, that all sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. But of course, it requires two things- 1) actual controllable, repeatable, ability and 2) the follow through to actually go through the steps necessary to elevate the paranormal from a fringe field to basically the center of the public spotlight.

And not everyone has those qualities.

Quote
As an aside, for shits and giggles and out of pure curiosity, for a short while a few years back, I made up completely bald-faced lies and told them to people just to see if they'd believe me on my word alone, without even attempting to give any evidences or clarifications. Things like "did you know that the American President spent some time as a spy in Russia?" and got it all the way up to something like "Did you hear on the news last week that the American Government finally admitted to having long term communications with aliens?" before someone DIDN'T believe me on my word alone. So, No, you don't need to address the concerns that people have in order for them to believe you.

We've had this discussion before, and there are other mitigating factors.

Things like previous credibility, the likelihood of that story being true based on past experiences or other outside knowledge, how invested people are in the topic, whether they have readily available means to fact check your information, whether the situation calls for it (are you in a casual dinner, or sitting on a computer right in front of google?), etc etc etc.

And no, I'm not going to get on that merry-go-round with you again. I'm sure by this point you can figure out what my response to that statement will be, just as well as I probably can figure out what yours are going to be (though, much to my regret, not due to psychic ability! Just the fact that we've had these conversations many times before)

Either way, it's been fun :)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 10:38:35 PM by Searching »
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

January 06, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
Reply #458

trismegistos

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I'll just post this here again, seems it got overlooked.  It's about Randi not legitimately giving anybody a chance to prove themselves whatsoever.

http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

January 06, 2012, 01:59:59 AM
Reply #459

LeZebra

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Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.

interesting. ok thanks.
Think outside the box to change what's inside it.

January 06, 2012, 04:36:51 PM
Reply #460

Steve

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Did you miss the part about Nina Kulagina not being around to do just that?
So you can not think of a way to TEST Randi's claims of false procedure, in order to verify or invalidate them? And then you just accept the claims blindly without considering the lack of ability to verify them?

You accept that you cannot do experiments to validate or invalidate, and yet still you agree with one side. Do you see the problem with this? You're not giving capability to test the claims of invalid trials, and yet you still accept them as though they are correct.

So back again to the question you're avoiding: What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested? If you don't want to answer this question, since this is the entire crux of your complaints against Nina Kulagina, my next post will be nothing but this question. Because without answering it, you cannot win this discussion or convince me that retesting needs to be done. (To everyone else reading this: Am I the one missing his response? Did he actually give any criteria for how the tests are invalid, and I'm just not seeing it?)

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I think it's more along the lines of "I can think of ways to perform this feat using stage magic, let's check and make sure that this person isn't using trickery... oh, that's interesting, this person does not want to undergo an investigation... hmm, that's interesting.... I think it's far more likely that they are using some sort of trickery which is in line with our modern understanding of the physical world than it is that they are using some metaphysical phenomenon to accomplish such a feat. I consider it highly suspect that they refuse to accept any investigation as they go about letting people (literally) buy into their claims. I consider that highly suspect and it shoots up several red flags about fraud, and would highly discourage people from buying into this person as much as possible."
So all of that is completely negated by the fact that both Nina and Uri DID allow themselves to be investigated by multiple people. Thus, the criteria of this rant has actually already been satisfied.

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*Steve hat on* I don't know who you think you are, that you can just demand that I tell you anything. Do some of your own work and investigate yourself.

*Steve hat off* *aggregate metaphysical community hat on* "Oh, you've done a lot of research you say, but you're still not buying it? Well you haven't done the right research. Oh, you have, have you? Well you obviously just aren't thinking logically, because the evidence is already there."

*aggregate metaphysical community hat off*

That kind of rhetoric will just drive you mad, won't it?
No, it doesn't because the answer is simple: I've done my legwork and I haven't seen anyone else's legwork that counters mine. I'll accept my legwork. Book closed. I am not one of the people who thinks "magic is for everyone". If someone comes around saying "I've spent x years trying to learn this stuff, but I still haven't even seen the barest evidence that it's real" then my response is either "you're probably doing it wrong" (which is easy enough, since there's not a thousand ways to climb a mountain. you have to really know what you're doing in order to succeed) or "then go do something you want to do with your life".

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Oh, dang. Guess Uri Geller is the real deal. Fuck this shit. I'm off to be his disciple.
Are you actually going to address that then? A stage magician did exactly what you wanted him to do, and by way of experiment disproved Randi's claims that Uri was a fraud. Do you believe the claim or the experiment? This is not a rhetorical question nor a rhetorical situation.

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You asked why anyone would want to go on television to basically be made fun of. Jersey Shore is basically as show where the cast looks like a bunch of morons. Really, the lowest common denominator of society. They make ridiculous amounts of money for getting wasted, having sex, waking up, getting wasted, looking like a bunch of idiots, waking up, getting wasted, etc etc etc etc.
Well you've kind of answered the situation then. To use myself as an example, I would not get money, nor good fame, nor anything positive from getting up on tv and being insulted etc. So, unlike the crew of Jersey Shore who have a great reason to do what they do (money), I have no reason.

If, however, you can find 10 good metaphysicists who you can convince to get on such a show, and convice producers to produce such a show, then you're good to try it out. I wish you the best of luck in convincing people.

EDIT: I'm watching the video right now, about Randi supposedly testing Uri, which is why I didn't respond to it. So far I'm not seeing it. I see Randi making up explanations, but still no actual testing so far.

EDIT 2: Okay, I finished watching that youtube video, seeing no actual testing by Randi, and then watched another where Randi does the same thing; offers explanations for other ways to do it while never actually testing anything. In the second video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnDHPOWXFVI&feature=related Randi points out that Uri "does it twice" in reference to him supposedly physically bending the key by actually forcibly bending it (watch from 3:30). However, the test with Mr William Cox, if it actually happened the way that he claimed, mentions that William checked the key beforehand and used a key strong enough that he couldn't budge it, placed the key flat on the glass table so as to verify that the key bent without optical illusion, and used a glass table specifically to verify that Uri wasn't using physical force to physically bend the key, prevented Uri from picking the key up and instead Uri rubbed the key from above which still somehow caused the key to bend upward against the force being applied. Randi's explanations of potential tricks fall short, if that description of the experiment is true.

But of course, we'll never actually know how accurate Randi is because Randi never tests Uri. I have no problem critiquing experiments. What I expect to see, however, is more than just making claims of bad procedure with the pompous attitude that making the claims alone is enough to invalidate the experiments. It's *sort of like* an expression I heard a long time ago, and which is semi-popular: don't come to me with a problem, unless you also have a solution.

~Steve
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 05:05:00 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 06, 2012, 05:47:55 PM
Reply #461

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So you can not think of a way to TEST Randi's claims of false procedure, in order to verify or invalidate them? And then you just accept the claims blindly without considering the lack of ability to verify them?

No one said I accepted them  :confused:

I'm just saying-

Skeptics have a problem with Nina Kulagina.

Nina Kulagina is not around to test for whatever the skeptics have issues with.

So there's nowhere to go with that.

Period. Dot. End of line. End of statement.

So don't go reading too much into that.

I, for one, find it far more productive to do one or both of either
1) Finding someone alive with the same abilities that we can test
2) Learning how to develop these abilities in other people, which would then feed back to point one

I'm really not as hung up on Nina Kulagina as you seem to be, or as you seem to think I am.

But you point her out all the time as someone who has solid evidence backing her, and... well.... there is a lot of outcry for things to still be verified, which can't be done, so it seems to be a dead end.

I, for one, would rather seek out something that can be developed fully.

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I've done my legwork and I haven't seen anyone else's legwork that counters mine.

More to the point- you read until it's the same old bullshit, then stop bothering to look further.

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I'll accept my legwork. Book closed.

How open minded of you.

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I am not one of the people who thinks "magic is for everyone". If someone comes around saying "I've spent x years trying to learn this stuff, but I still haven't even seen the barest evidence that it's real" then my response is either "you're probably doing it wrong" (which is easy enough, since there's not a thousand ways to climb a mountain. you have to really know what you're doing in order to succeed) or "then go do something you want to do with your life".

You seem to be combining two separate points- the question of whether it exists at all, and the question of whether any one individual can succeed in performing it.

I don't agree magic is for everyone either, any more than basketball is for everyone or skateboarding or art (all of which I've spent at least several years practicing).

The thing that seems to separate paranormal events from any other event is that, sure, while I might try and fail at art or skateboarding or basketball, I can easily find verification that there are methods of training in existence which provides SOMEBODY results of what I was trying to do.

So it surely exists. Whether I, or anyone else, can achieve it is an entirely different matter.

Ever hear the quote "reality is that which, when you stop believing it, it doesn't go away"?

If someone doesn't believe a slam dunk is possible, well, it's pretty easy to find ample and unanimous verification across the board.

If someone stops believing in psi, they find a fringe number of scientists insisting that they are right and that the math proves it, but nobody else will listen to reason, countered by a large majority of other scientists insisting, using the some basis for argument: mathematics/statistics, that it is they who are right while the fringe scientists just don't hear reason.

It's kind of sad when both sides claim the other is wrong just because they "don't see what's so obviously there".

At least to me.

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Well you've kind of answered the situation then. To use myself as an example, I would not get money, nor good fame, nor anything positive from getting up on tv and being insulted etc.

Actually you WOULD get money.

Your name WOULD get out there.

And if you think that people looking at you as an example of someone with potentially credibly paranormal ability (provided that you actually had that ability) is a bad thing, then I guess you shouldn't count that as a positive.

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I wish you the best of luck in convincing people.

Why would you have to wish me luck? The facts should be obvious enough that they speak for themselves.

Unless, oh, wait, part of you doesn't think the evidence is good enough to convince producers to give me money and resources to film a show? Damn. Talk about subconscious thoughts appearing in text.

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the test with Mr William Cox, if it actually happened the way that he claimed

So I guess it's a case of "he said, she said".

And that's never a very convincing thing to see a bunch of people, especially scientists/statisticians, getting into a debate over as the sole point of evidence in whether or not a thing is real.

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don't come to me with a problem, unless you also have a solution.

I might not have a bucket on hand to help scoop out the water, but does that mean I shouldn't point out that there's a hole in the boat when I see one?

If someone has a problem with something, they should be free to state it.

If something is what it says it is, it should have no problem amply dealing with with those issues in any arena.

If I was the only person who could see in an entire world of blind people, I would have no problem reading things without touching them. This, no doubt, would astound all the blind people. Surely there would be a Randi among them. But no matter how mathematically stacked the odds were against me being able to read thing without having to touch them, I would be able to do it 100% of the time. Why? Because I can see, and my ability to see is not impacted in the least by whether or not someone believes I am able to.

My ability to see is not impacted in the least by the odds that I get one thing correct verses 15 in a row correct.

My ability to see is not impacted in the least by whether or not someone can perform a meta-analysis of a bunch of blind people trying to read things without touching them, and some statistician coming in and throwing a bunch of tests out for bad procedure and running the new numbers again and finding that it's well within the odds that the blind people guessed right.

And why is that the case? Because my ability to see is very real. It does not go away just because someone doesn't believe me. It doesn't go away just because someone "should" believe me because of the math. It doesn't go away just because someone expects me to get 10 out of 10 correct due to a fallacious argument of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" even though mathematically he should accept any number above what probability would allow for correct answers.


And I've got this crazy, far out belief, I know, that paranormal abilities operate under the exact same principle.

If they are real, they will be there. You won't be fiddling with statistics at the fringes of the scientific realm. It will be there, in your face, operating on a daily basis, as something which exists as a fundamental fact of reality.

Go ahead. Call me crazy. Nothing I haven't heard before.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End

January 06, 2012, 11:40:55 PM
Reply #462

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What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested?

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 07, 2012, 05:25:16 AM
Reply #463

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Steve and SearchING

It will help me and others to understand where both of you are coming from with regards to what you believe in, in respect to Majick/PSI etc. :confused:

It maybe that you both have similar beliefs but are divided by what signifies evidence?

All I can say is that I believe that there is another place besides the physical and that some people can see, hear or manipulate this other place and it can have effects on the physical. Now if you want to call this Majick or PSI or even the over used Paranormal, then OK, but these are just labels? I believe because I have witnessed first hand.

Over to you

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We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
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January 07, 2012, 02:31:37 PM
Reply #464

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What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested?

~Steve

There aren't any that I want tested  :confused:

What part of that did you miss?

Let me spell it out for you one, final time.....

Every one of my points related to Nina Kulagina boil down to what follows:

People (i.e. Steve) point her out as some ultimate evidence ("zomg it's even on video! That should appeal to kids these days") that everyone (i.e. "real scientists") has proven that Nina Kulagina is the real deal.

But there are other people (i.e. Randi) who have a variety of grievances with the research ("here is a way that we can fake that event under those conditions").

Ideally, we would be able to run experiments to isolate and account for whatever grievance is listed.

But she isn't around, so we can't.

The. End.

Note: examples such as Steve and Randi are listed merely as examples. They are not the be all and end all of the types of people that are out there.
"For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End