Who is Practicing the IIH?

[trismegistos]

The thing is that doing things like lighting a candle would only happen at higher levels or if you were to be very one sided.  The hermetic magician doesn't do those exercises in order to be able to light candles, but simply so that he has enough control over the elements to serve in his purpose of using them as stepping stones toward God Union.  The one who can perform amazing acts of thaumaturgy has already reached quite an advanced level, and has an understanding that "proving" something doesn't put a person at a level of evolution necessary to climb the ladder to God.  My Teachers are able to perform feats of thaumaturgy, I have had a condition that takes months to heal (from prior experience with it) be gone in 4 days after having hands laid upon the ailment in my arm, but even for their own students it is not something that they just do on a regular basis, it is more of a reward for the student (not the healings, but external things I won't mention here).  Aspirants are very easily corrupted by the idea of power instead of what the real use of such control is, evolution.

Take it how you will, take it as some kind of cop out, but to the Mage he just simply doesn't care if people think influencing physical reality is possible because that's not what such practices are about at all. 

Take nuclear reactions for example.  In it's noble and just use it can create vast amounts of power to supply whole cities.  Just because it also so happens to be able to destroy miles and miles of civilization via an atomic bomb doesn't mean that is it's primary use.  The magician recognizes this, and he uses his control of Nature for his noble purpose of evolving himself so that he can aid man, and not to be a circus performer to wow people and prove such power exists, he holds his science as very sacred and holy, and thanks God for allowing him to have such control so that he may become alike to God.

Heck, look directly at God.  Omnipotent and yet there is massive suffering in the world.  It is because God knows exactly what is necessary for his creation, and likewise the magician in God-consciousness knows that proof will not suddenly enlighten mankind, but that man must come to the path on his own at the proper time.  Even those yogis etc. who have shown certain feats, it is almost always swept under the rug, scientists hate when they can't even think of a hypothesis to explain something, afterall these men are the pinnacle of human intelligence right?


Just my take on the matter.

[Melchizedek]

The more that you meditate on the introduction part of IIH, the more it will be given you too see that all of this is real. The more that you ignore meditating on the introduction part, the less you will see that all of it is real.

Until you reach the point, where you are doubting all of it, because your not sure about any of it anymore. You can only regain your confidence, by reading the intro, over and over again indefinitely.

If not, you'll be doomed to frustration, doubt and anxiety about commiting yourself to IIH

[mrblack]

@Jordana

What do you think of the video about John Chang?
http://youtu.be/bAV5avfDBiw

[Searching]

You can't verify nina kulagina's experiments for yourself and therefore they're invalid? Bullshit

Part of the scientific method involves verification and repeatability of experiments by third parties.

If there is someone who has developed a theory as to how someone can fake an experiment given the set of protocols that the experiment has, then, well, part of the method of scientific inquiry demands that a study be done which can account for that variable, to see if telekinetic results would still be had.

But since Nina Kulagina isn't around anymore, we can't test for those variables which certain professional tricksters have cited, now can we?

So what we have left is someone who's vetted by a lot of people as being legit (though keep in mind that just because a lot of people agree, doesn't mean they're right- the fallacious argumentum ad populum), while at the same time there are variables at play that haven't been tested for.

Throw in the fact that psychic phenomena are extremely rare in daily life. Even people who train to get them don't always get what they're after, and even people who claim to have them don't seem to use them in any well known way.

So it's not very hard to see why Randi wins more people to the side of "non-believers" than Kulagina wins to the side of "believers".

The scientists who studied her TOOK INTO ACCOUNT all of the arguments that randi et al try to use to debunk her. The scientists checked for trickery and designed several of the experiments that you can watch in the videos in order to remove exactly those kinds of cheats that randi and them want to believe she used. The problem here is that 40 scientists studied her and all came to fairly similar conclusions, and then one NON-scientist comes along with an opinion and we should believe him when he clearly hasn't even watched the videos or studied up on the experimental procedures? Fuck that. I will trust the 40 scientists over the one naysayer (if he JUST brought the questions to bear then he would be a skeptic, but he went steps further and used those questions in a rhetorical sense to basically call those scientists bumbling idiots and called the entire scientific process a sham).

I, for one, certainly don't approve of the manner in which Mr. Randi goes about browbeating "believers". But I try to keep in mind that he is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

There are plenty of schools of study which, if one is not properly instructed, can completely blindside you with things you never would have expected.

So, take from that what you will. Professional analysts, or a professional at fooling analysts?

What you might not know is that it was scientists who, for a very long time, ran the forefront of the crusade in catching stage-magicians who claimed to have real supernatural powers Sure, scientists can be fooled some times, they are human after all, but you know what the biggest difference between scientists who are running experiments are, compared to Randi who is running his mouth? The scientists are actually involved in experiments, whereas Randi merely hears about them from afar and tries to give his "expert" opinion into why the experiments are always flawed.

You might not know that scientists were also at the forefront of studying Uri Geller, claiming that he was a legitimate psychic.You know who was at the forefront of exposing THAT psychic? Oh, right, James Randi. Huh.

You just say that scientists can be fooled, so wouldn't it make even MORE sense to listen to the claims of people who make their living fooling people???

Also, Randi is ONE stage magician. The weight of his words do NOT out-match the weight of many many scientists.

He's not the only one offering money....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal

So there is nothing inherently wrong with them looking at a case study or a scientific study and saying "well here's how I could think of a way to fake this. If I can think of a way, it's possible they thought of the same or similar way."

And yes, actually, there is something inherently wrong with that: they haven't given me any reason whatsoever to believe them when they make such claims.

Right, well, sorry being a professional trickster isn't credible enough for you when it comes to thinking up ways to rig an experiment....

Can you fucking blame them when every popularized show out there that delves into the paranormal always comes back and makes the people who believe in metaphysics look like idiots? What's the point of going on national television just to have all the good stuff edited out and have the very people who invited you to the show call you names and slander you?

Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......

Doesn't take a psychic to realize that people will only-ever-always believe whatever they want to believe in anyway, regardless of what reality actually is like.

Right, that's why trivia is so popular, because people like going "oh hey, that's a fun fact which runs counter to popular opinion, I'm going to disregard it..."

Did you know there are people who still think Elvis is alive?

Did you know there are people who still believe you can move things with your mind? (to add some perspective, I'm one of them)

Walk down to the nearest university physics department and say "psychic phenomena are real, and science has proven it". See the response you'll get (to add some perspective, I've done it, with the evidence that Kobok sent to me oh so long ago)

150 years of scientific experiments into the supernatural, with more than abundant significant results regardless of the era, means the legwork is already done a hundred times over.

Right. That's why everyone believes that psychic phenomena are real and vetted by science and that everyone can train to do them.

I'm surprised. Global warming is STILL making more of a splash than psychic phenomena. Guess it's not as cool as the weather...

I'm sorry, where did this happen?

That was a summary of the research that Kobok provided me. You were in those threads, I'm sure you can find it if you go back and look.....

Who, and please tell me it's not those fucking wanna-be-scientist stage magicians, redid the math after removing experiments from the pool in order to come out to normal numbers?

As I recall, it was Ray Hyman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman

And secondly, WHY did they remove each study?

The details are in the study that Kobok provided. He's done enough legwork posting it to the thread. I'm not going to jump through hoops to feed it to you on a silver platter. You can put it some effort and find it yourself

Just claiming something like "oh, those had poor criteria" without giving really good reasons why is a slimy tactic that at least a couple of people have been caught doing in order to just remove what actually were good experiments (and the other side of that occurred as well, where some experimenters wanted to show results so badly that they removed people from the experiment who were receiving low scores).

Wow, pulling a bit of a James Randi there, huh? How about you actually read the reports, rather than providing us with your ignorant opinion just from casually hearing a summary of a study from a random person on the internet, hm?

[Melchizedek]

Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

[Melchizedek]

There isn't any people who have completed this training properly, that's why there exists no proof.

[trismegistos]

Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Holy hell, a post from Melchizedek I actually agree with for once.  Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

[Melchizedek]

I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.

I say this, because to have someone skilled in these type of healing arts, would be a blessing that should be shared with all of mankind.

It's sad that this is so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I've seen people lie on beds of nails and walk through fire, but that's not really beneficial to anyone. I've seen some guy floating in the air.

A guy like David Blaine or Criss Angel probaly are skimming the surface on the real magic, unless there using trick photography. I don't know, you would have to see them in person

[Akenu]

Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Holy hell, a post from Melchizedek I actually agree with for once.  Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

I do agree this is maybe Melchizedek's first good post, but I don't certainly agree with your commentary. Meditating half hour 4 times a week can be the same fruitful to someone as hours of meditation daily, this part is pretty individual.

[trismegistos]

Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

[LeZebra]

Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.

[LeZebra]

I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.

I say this, because to have someone skilled in these type of healing arts, would be a blessing that should be shared with all of mankind.

It's sad that this is so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I've seen people lie on beds of nails and walk through fire, but that's not really beneficial to anyone. I've seen some guy floating in the air.

A guy like David Blaine or Criss Angel probaly are skimming the surface on the real magic, unless there using trick photography. I don't know, you would have to see them in person

I've heard nothing but good things about Rawn Clark and his experience with IIH.

[kobok]

But I try to keep in mind that [Mr. Randi] is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

This certainly does seem to be his approach to most of parapsychology.

[Akenu]

But I try to keep in mind that [Mr. Randi] is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

This certainly does seem to be his approach to most of parapsychology.

I would say that he is not really trying to expose parapsychology. I have seen few of the challenges and I think I know why "being famous" is one of the requirements to be able to undergo the challenge. Randi doesn't really want to find some psychic person and hand over his money.
But he certainly wants to expose frauds and help people get rid of them and that's how I see his show. As the fraud exposure. Do you want to get to Randi's challenge? Be fraud.

[Searching]

Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy (me included)