Poll

Are You practicing the Steps in Initiaion into Hermetics?

Yes, very strictly.
46 (15.5%)
Yes, mixed with my other practices.
112 (37.8%)
Kinda, of and on again.
53 (17.9%)
No, it doesn't fit with me.
49 (16.6%)
No, What is IIH?
28 (9.5%)
No, don't have the time.
8 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 296

Author Topic: Who is Practicing the IIH?  (Read 569257 times)

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November 29, 2011, 01:17:25 AM
Reply #390

Melchizedek

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I was just contemplating the exercise of lighting a wick from a candle on fire, using you imagination calling forth the fire element. I realize now that anyone can do it. That is anyone who practices the mental exercises from IIH, long enough to have developed their imaginations, through the exercises and made it strong enough to really see a glowing spark, from out of the Akasha.

If you've tried and can't do it, it's only because your imagination isn't developed enough. If you keep working on developing it, you'll, meaning anyone will be able to do it

November 29, 2011, 09:18:56 AM
Reply #391

Jesse9209

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The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

November 29, 2011, 11:20:12 AM
Reply #392

Melchizedek

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The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.

November 29, 2011, 12:33:22 PM
Reply #393

Jesse9209

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Bardon states clearly that he does not expect his students to accomplish that task at that point in their training. He say's directly, "The genuine magician will not waste his time with such dallying" directly after talking about lighting a candle with the elements. So while that may be your opinion it is not what Bardon expects.

November 30, 2011, 12:00:10 PM
Reply #394

mrblack

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The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.


Alright folks, just so we have an unbiased opinion on this current topic.
Link below is Rawn Clarke correspondence on the importance of distinguishing
between what Franz Bardon expects and what he says is possible.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Expect2.html

Now, fellow readers, feel free to take what you've read into consideration and
make your own opinions.

P.S: Some people are "gifted" at these sort of things, some people might be IIH
geniuses, quite possible.....c'est la vie, yeah?
hepaby!

beyondchaosmagick.wordpress.com <-- journal
thehollowones.wordpress.com <--collective

November 30, 2011, 02:32:05 PM
Reply #395

Melchizedek

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The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.


Alright folks, just so we have an unbiased opinion on this current topic.
Link below is Rawn Clarke correspondence on the importance of distinguishing
between what Franz Bardon expects and what he says is possible.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Expect2.html

Now, fellow readers, feel free to take what you've read into consideration and
make your own opinions.

P.S: Some people are "gifted" at these sort of things, some people might be IIH
geniuses, quite possible.....c'est la vie, yeah?

Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation"

That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so.

I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet

However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system.

If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book

November 30, 2011, 05:23:12 PM
Reply #396

Jesse9209

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Melchizedek do me a favor and read that section of IIH again. Bardon says while using the example of the wick as dallying to the magician that was a copy paste from IIH not my opinion.

November 30, 2011, 09:08:25 PM
Reply #397

mrblack

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Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation". That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so. I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet. However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system. If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book
I merely pointed that article out for the many beginners that are reading this thread because obviously, we have 2 sets of beliefs regarding the understanding of the book.

I can respect the fact that you're taking a hard line towards the practice and teachings in IIH. I've known people who is quite gifted in pyrokinesis so I do not dissuade your claims. Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rest of the readers if you can provide a commentary of what you did and how you accomplished your amazing growth in the articles section?
hepaby!

beyondchaosmagick.wordpress.com <-- journal
thehollowones.wordpress.com <--collective

November 30, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
Reply #398

Melchizedek

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Melchizedek do me a favor and read that section of IIH again. Bardon says while using the example of the wick as dallying to the magician that was a copy paste from IIH not my opinion.

I agree with you 100%, it would be a total waste of time to light a wick with the fire element. However, in order to do real healing, to be able to develop your clairvoyance, so that you could see inside a person and detect excatly what the nature of their illness is and help heal them, you would need to have your mastery of the fire element so powerful, that you could light the wick of a candle on fire.

See I'm looking for all the things that Bardon understood, from the perspective of having mastered the first tarot card to the point where you could really utilize the 4 elements to the full potential of whatever secrets that they hold.

He says things like light the wick of a candle on fire, but what can you really do that he doesn't talk about, if you had such mastery of the fire element.

I don't want to develop my mastery of this sytem to do such a thing. I want to develop it to that point to see the total scope of what's humanly possible to do with the mastery of the elements at that point.

At this point I can only think of a few things for each element

Mastery of Fire Element- All things to do with developing occult power, from the trasnmutation of the fire element into white light.

See this is all I can think of about the fire element, because this is all I know at this point.

I don't want to be able to light a wick on fire for that power. I want it for all the other things, that he doesn't talk about inthe book, that I don't know about and won't know about, unless I can get my mastery of that element and the others to perfection.

Probaly repeated myself, but I'm looking for all the secret things that I, you or anybody can only know about through personal mastery of each element.

Only a master magicain would know and they probaly wouldn't want to reveal such a secret to the public.

I need to know and there's only one way to accomplish it. Have to totally master it

November 30, 2011, 11:35:13 PM
Reply #399

Melchizedek

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Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation". That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so. I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet. However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system. If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book
I merely pointed that article out for the many beginners that are reading this thread because obviously, we have 2 sets of beliefs regarding the understanding of the book.

I can respect the fact that you're taking a hard line towards the practice and teachings in IIH. I've known people who is quite gifted in pyrokinesis so I do not dissuade your claims. Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rest of the readers if you can provide a commentary of what you did and how you accomplished your amazing growth in the articles section?

My secret for boosting my success with IIH, was to make an audio of the into of IIH, so that I could meditate on it, over and over again without really understanding what he was talking about. Little by little, bits and pieces came to me and I understand that the whole book is the first step in becoming a master magician and that is mastering the elements.

Before you do anything, this is what the first Tarot card's about. I know he says it in the book, but I couldn't see it for myself. That is not until I mindlessly listened to my audio version of the intro, over and over and over.

December 01, 2011, 08:32:44 AM
Reply #400

Jesse9209

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I agree that the magician should be able to do that but I don't agree with at that point. Bardon saying that its dallying which the genuine magician will not do tells me that if he expects the student to do it at some point it is likely later on in step 8 or beyond after further training. He expects the students imagination and concentration to grow progressively throughout all of IIH and to be able to concentrate for 15 minutes without distraction on each sense by step 7.

December 01, 2011, 08:38:13 AM
Reply #401

Prado

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Gonna start working through the IIH curriculum tonight. I'll be sure to drop in and let everyone know what i think. :)

December 01, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
Reply #402

Steve

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I agree that the magician should be able to do that but I don't agree with at that point. Bardon saying that its dallying which the genuine magician will not do tells me that if he expects the student to do it at some point it is likely later on in step 8 or beyond after further training. He expects the students imagination and concentration to grow progressively throughout all of IIH and to be able to concentrate for 15 minutes without distraction on each sense by step 7.
Firstly, a student is probably not quite a "Genuine Magician" and thus the statement of what a "Genuine Magician" would or would not do does not have to apply to the student.

Secondly, you can perform tests for yourself to make sure that you're actually progressing rather than merely pretending to progress. Being able to perform certain feats would be indicators of such progress, even if not the goal of the progress. No different than in martial arts: if after x hours training you should be able to perform y maneuver and you can't, then you should re-evaluate how you're training. If, on the other hand, you can perform maneuver y after x hours, then you can be assured that your time spent in training has indeed been spent towards something worthwhile instead of wasted towards something worthless, and then you can keep training for even loftier advancement with a clear mind rather than a doubtful mind.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 01, 2011, 05:48:35 PM
Reply #403

Patanjali

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One thing to keep in mind is that the iih doesn't go into week point training. This is a not so known trap within the iih, there are many more. Not everyone is the same. Scientifically speaking, there are three base types of memories. The sense of feel, sight, and heating. Audio memory, by heating. Sense or feeling based memory, more hands on, and visual memory, through sighr. Most people are a combination of two. This is only a example however. Certain exercises should be focused on longer for certain people, there really is no base time limit for everyone. Actually, the first thing that should be done is to forget the time frame.

You have to decide your abilities, buoy have to really Analise yourself, to that your not moving on overly early. As Steve said, it is like martial arts, or weight lifting. I prefer weight lifting, I think it works as a better analogy for this. Not everyones muscles can be trained the same way. Certain people develop faster from genetics (past lives would make development faster for some more so than others, magically speaking), these people don't have to work as hard. Certain people develop better from white muscle fiber training (fast twitch muscle, fibers), and others from the white muscle fiber training ( slow twitch).

Get give guys and give woman, train them all the same way. Some will have terrible results, others great. Same with the iih. Give it to 10 people, all do everything the same. Same amount of training, everything. They will all come out with neutering results, generally not good for the most part. Everyone has a different level of balance between the the three base spheres. Such as someone who workout 7 days a week, a good example Beowulf be olympic training. There far more developed in the physical sphere and the earth element than anything else, leading the other two based spheres lacking, causing imbalance. Most everyone starts imbalanced, another trap that isn't in the iih. You you bring yourself to some type of balance prior,
 training will progress far quicker. Last but not least, always perform tragacanth everything you do, as Steve said. Test yourself after each step, multiple times before moving on.

December 01, 2011, 10:27:16 PM
Reply #404

Melchizedek

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Steps 4 & 5 are the main building exercises for building up your strength and power of each of the elements

You have:

The first exercise where your sitting in the asana position and then drawing each element into the body starting with 7 breathes and working your way up to 25 or so at a max
Then you have the exercise, where your drawing each element into different body parts and into each internal organ, through 2 methods of
drawing the element into the whole body, then re-directing it into each body part and internal organ, one by one
Then drawing it directly into each body part, staright from the Universe and repeating the above procedure
Then your balancing the elements all together throughout the appropiate body sections
Then your drawing in the element and sending it outwards through your solar plexus and fingers.

So basically there are 5 main exercises for developing the mastery of each of the elements.

 I think he mentions lighting the wick on fire, because your doing all your main power work with the elements at this midway point in the training



« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:28:28 AM by Melchizedek »