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Are You practicing the Steps in Initiaion into Hermetics?

Yes, very strictly.
47 (15.8%)
Yes, mixed with my other practices.
112 (37.7%)
Kinda, of and on again.
53 (17.8%)
No, it doesn't fit with me.
49 (16.5%)
No, What is IIH?
28 (9.4%)
No, don't have the time.
8 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 297

Author Topic: Who is Practicing the IIH?  (Read 572038 times)

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February 24, 2010, 03:53:12 AM
Reply #120

virtual.storm

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Hi, I have a question.

I´m practicing the IIH at step one for a month already and started to have a problem about sleep.

I usually have to sleep less than 8 hours a day to exercite, a thing I never done successfully before. I have this need for sleeping 8hours, and sleeping 7 to 5 hours a day during a month brought me to a state where its really difficult to meditate because of the tendence to sleep and the cold shower alone doesn´t get rid of it.
It extends to my daily life, making things like study more difficult also.

Any suggestions?

February 24, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
Reply #121

Azathoth

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I am by no means an expert of magick, but I have some ideas that may help you, and should be generally applicable to anyone in your situation. However, the suggestions are to be taken with a grain of salt as I am no expert in time management.

First, take a look at how you spend your time and what tasks you do during your time. Ask yourself if you could move some of those tasks around in order to free up time in the mornings and evenings for the exercises outlined in Step 1. For example, say there is a television show you like to watch before going to bed, but you should be using that time for the exercises. Perhaps you could record the show to watch later. Or, see if you could cut out some activities all together. (Perhaps you don't have to watch that show after all.)

This step may seem obvious, and right away you may say that you are truly busy with tasks that cannot be rearranged or eliminated. This may be true, but before you assume that, I ask you to take careful note of your schedule over the next week or so. Literally write down how you spend your time, and then examine it with a critical eye. Bardon suggests you keep a magical diary, which you only use for your studies. I consider this activity to be related so closely to my magical activities that keeping my own schedule in my magical diary feels natural. Your beliefs may differ on the matter, but whatever you decide, make sure you keep track of your schedule and make it accessible.

The next thing to do is to see if some of your tasks could be shortened. This part is tricky, because many tasks require time and care and are not to be rushed through, especially your magical practices. However, there are a number of things you can do to shorten your tasks. Consider what parts of it are completely unnecessary. If, when having breakfast in the morning, you also like to read the paper, stop reading the paper (as Bardon says you should focus on eating anyway!) and you will find that you eat much more efficiently.

Another step is to see if you can combine tasks. Again, this requires caution, because some tasks require focus and concentration. In particular, never combine your magical practices with anything. Some things can be combined, though, especially if one requires mental focus and the other does not. Perhaps you could lift weights, work out on an exercise bike, or do ironing while watching television (Just be careful not to burn anything). Perhaps you could get an audio book and listen to it on your MP3 player while taking a jog.

If you are still in school, you should learn good study habits. Naturally you do not want to rush through studying. (You may want to, but you should not, I should say.) However, do you often find yourself wasting time trying to start studying? I know I do. But if you are able to have the discipline to start studying, it will go much faster.

The next thing you need to examine is how you sleep. If you feel you are not getting enough sleep, you may not be getting "good enough" sleep. Our current knowledge on the subject relates this to REM sleep. Although a lot of companies try to tell you that their product will increase your REM sleep so that your sleep will be better, and some people may say that strange sleep schedules are the way to go, you should consult your doctor during your next routine checkup if you are worried about the sleep you are getting. (Or, if you are finding it is affecting you very adversely, schedule an appointment.) In particular, see how long it takes you to get to sleep, as this is one of the things the doctor will ask you. This can have an effect on the sleep you are getting. Only the doctor can advise you on how to improve your sleep.

March 02, 2010, 11:24:16 AM
Reply #122

Violet

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March 02, 2010, 12:52:15 PM
Reply #123

Mindlessinvalid

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That goes against all of bardon's teachings though.

The "as above so below" from hermes and "like begets like" from aristotle are the primary messages in bardon's works.

So to actively do anything is only going to make thoughts come faster, you need to learn to not react to extraneous thoughts, which kills the need for more extraneous thoughts.

Ask a psychologist and they'll tell you the same thing. I believe Franz Baron's Thought control could treat ADD fairly well if it weren't for the fact that ADD would interrupt it.

Actively doing anything will not work without any sort of expectation and delusion effect because you are essentially making more thoughts not less.

You are referring to crowley's thought banishment technique.

I don't think crowley spent more time being an occultist than bragging about being an occultist.
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March 02, 2010, 01:56:23 PM
Reply #124

Mindlessinvalid

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I've been doing it and it works.

Unrepresentative Sample. One person getting results can mean anything. Get enough people that can honestly say they've gotten results that way and you'll have a basis for making your accusation. Also, can you cite the sources of misinterpretation? Because the majority of people interpret his words contrary to your claim. Statistically, unless there is a mass delusion, words are interpreted correctly unless ciphered via an allegory.
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March 03, 2010, 07:33:18 AM
Reply #125

Violet

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He's wrong, your suppossed to remember as many of your thoughts as you can. I've been doing it and it works.
As other people have already pointed out, the fact that you say that 'it works' does not mean anything. I am not trying to say that you are wrong here, but the fact that this exercise benefits you in some way does not mean that you did the exercise in the way Bardon wanted people to do the exercise, per se.

Quote
The third thought control exercise is the one, where you become passive and objective to your thoughts. It doesn't make sense, that you would do the same exrecies twice.
This is not true. You do not become passive and objective towards your thoughts in the third mental exercise of the first step. In this exercise, your mind must become silent, there must be no thoughts at all, they must not simply be ignored. Of course, ignoring once thoughts is a step towards this goal, but it is not the goal itself.

Quote
This person mis-interpeted Bardon's words.
Really? What Rawn posted on his website makes sense to me. Though I can not speak for everyone here, I know that many people who practice the Initiation into Hermetics consider Rawn Clark to be a trained magician, and believe he has successfuly completed this course of instruction. Nevertheless, if you believe this is not the way this exercise should be practiced, then by all means ignore everything I said, and continue practicing. ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 07:38:55 AM by Tempestum »

March 03, 2010, 10:00:06 AM
Reply #126

Steve

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Bardon, IIH, Pages 34-35 of the pdf
<<< First part of exercise
Magic Mental Training (I)
1. Thought Control: discipline of thoughts, & subordination of thoughts ~
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your
eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
At first, you
will find that there are rushing up to you thoughts concerning everyday affairs, professional
worries, and the like. Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts,
freely and independently.
According to the mentality and the mental situation you happen to
be in at the moment, this exercise will be more or less easy for you. The main point is not to
forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.
Beware of falling
asleep while doing this exercise. If you begin to feel tired, stop instantly and postpone the
exercise to another time, when you intend not to give in to tiredness. The Indians sprinkle
cold water on their faces or rub down the face and upper part of their bodies to remain brisk
and not waste precious time. Some deep breathing before you begin will also prevent
tiredness and sleepiness. As time goes on, each disciple will find out such little tricks by
himself. This exercise of controlling thoughts has to be undertaken in the morning and at
night. It is to be extended each day by one minute to allow the train of thoughts to be pursued
and controlled without the slightest digression for a time of 10 minutes at least after a week’s
training.

This space of time is destined to the average man. If it should not suffice, everyone can
extend it according to his own apperception. In any event, is advisable to proceed very
consciously, because it is of no use to hurry, development being quite individual in men. On
no account go further before the preceding exercise is perfectly under control.
The attentive disciple will realize how, at the beginning, thoughts rush on to him, how
rapidly they pass before him so that he will have difficulty to recollect the lot of manifold
thoughts. But from one exercise to the next, he will state that thoughts come up less chaotic,
moderating little by little, until at last only a few thoughts emerge in his consciousness,
arriving, as it were, from a far distance.

The keenest attention ought to be given to this work of thought control, as it is very
important for magic development, a fact that everyone will realize later on.
Providing that the mentioned exercise has been thoroughly worked through and everyone has
a complete command of it in practice, let us pass over to the mental training
>>>

<<< Second part
Up to now we have learned to control our thoughts. The next exercise will consist in not
giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and
obstinate.
For instance, we must be able not to occupy ourselves any longer with the tasks and
worries of our profession when we come home from work and return the family circle and
privacy. All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage
to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all
thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or
wander home, to private affairs, or elsewhere.
This has to be practiced time and again until it
has developed into a habit. Above all, one ought to accustom oneself to achieve whatever one
does with full consciousness, whether in professional work or in private, regardless whether
the point is a big one or a trifle.
This exercise should be kept for a lifetime, because it is
sharpening the mind and strengthening the consciousness and the memory.
>>>

<<< Third part
Having obtained a certain skill in this exercise, you may turn to the following one. The
purpose will now be to hold onto a single thought or idea for a longer while, and to suppress
any other thoughts associating and obtruding with force on the mind. Choose for this purpose
any train of thoughts or ideation or a suitable presentation according to your personal taste.
Hold onto his presentation with all your strength. Vigorously refuse all the other thoughts that
have nothing to do with the thoughts being exercised.
At first you probably will succeed only
for a few seconds, later on for minutes. You must manage to concentrate on one single
thought and follow it for 10 minutes at least.
>>>

<<< Fourth part
If you succeed in doing to, you will be fit for a new exercise. Let us then learn how to produce
an absolute vacancy of mind.
Lie down comfortably on a bed or sofa or sit in an armchair and
relax your whole body. Close your eyes. Energetically dismiss any thought coming upon you.
Nothing at all is allowed to happen in your mind; an absolute vacancy of mind must reign.
Now hold on to this stage of vacancy without digressing or forgetting.
At first, you will
manage to do so for only a few seconds, but by practicing it more often, you will surely
succeed better at it. The purpose of the exercise will be attained if you succeed in remaining
in this state for a full 10 minutes without losing your self-control or even falling asleep.
Carefully enter your success, failure, duration of your exercises and eventual disturbances into
a magic notebook (See details under the heading “Magic Soul Training”). Such a diary will
be useful to check your progress. The greater the scrupulousness you use in doing so, the more
easily you will undergo all the other exercises. Prepare a working schedule for the coming day
or week, and most of all, indulge in self-criticism.
>>>



Now, to take only the bold portions for each part, we come up with these as the exercises:
First Part:
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts, freely and independently.
The main point is not to forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.
It is to be extended each day by one minute to allow the train of thoughts to be pursued and controlled without the slightest digression for a time of 10 minutes at least after a week’s training.
The attentive disciple will realize how, at the beginning, thoughts rush on to him, how rapidly they pass before him so that he will have difficulty to recollect the lot of manifold thoughts. But from one exercise to the next, he will state that thoughts come up less chaotic, moderating little by little, until at last only a few thoughts emerge in his consciousness, arriving, as it were, from a far distance.

Second Part:
The next exercise will consist in not giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and obstinate.
All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or wander home, to private affairs, or elsewhere.
Above all, one ought to accustom oneself to achieve whatever one does with full consciousness, whether in professional work or in private, regardless whether the point is a big one or a trifle.

Third Part:
The purpose will now be to hold onto a single thought or idea for a longer while, and to suppress any other thoughts associating and obtruding with force on the mind. Choose for this purpose any train of thoughts or ideation or a suitable presentation according to your personal taste. Hold onto his presentation with all your strength. Vigorously refuse all the other thoughts that have nothing to do with the thoughts being exercised.

Fourth Part:
Let us then learn how to produce an absolute vacancy of mind.
Energetically dismiss any thought coming upon you. Nothing at all is allowed to happen in your mind; an absolute vacancy of mind must reign. Now hold on to this stage of vacancy without digressing or forgetting.


Examination, by Steve.
Part One:
Relax and observe your own thoughts. Do not interfere with them, but neither forget them. Watch them and remember them (and though Bardon doesn't state it, I advise that the next step after familiarizing one's self with one's own thoughts is to them let them go, so that one can remain independent from the thought-stream).
Your mind will quiet itself over time as you just sit and observe.
(And just because I can barely resist such a tempting possibility, "Be mindful of your thoughts, young Padawan."

Part Two:
As we go about our daily lives, we must give full attention to each task we do, not allowing disassociated thoughts from distracting us.
(Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.")

Part Three:
Pick a thought and think about it. Actively ignore any other thoughts from entering your mind, as you continue to think solely upon the one thought you already chose.
("Always remember, your focus determines your reality.")

Part Four:
Empty mind meditation. Do not think.
(Luke: "But tell me why I can't..."  Yoda: "No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions.")

~Steve
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 10:17:08 AM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

March 03, 2010, 10:13:43 AM
Reply #127

Mindlessinvalid

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This you remember the thoughts, but you don't think about them. Thinking makes more thinking. It's like the iron shirt for your mind. You lightly tap yourself everywhere and keep adding more and more pressure every day until you can withstand sledgehammers to the head.

you give it just enough thought to hit a thought stream, then stop thinking and observe.

activity to promote inactivity goes against hermetics which is about sympathetic vibrations.

thinking vibrates more thinking. You want to be able to resist the vibrations so your mind can be focused on one thing instead of many.

Besides, it's the general consensus of practicing magicians that you either observe or banish thoughts to make them go away.
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March 03, 2010, 10:25:27 AM
Reply #128

Mindlessinvalid

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That isn't necessarily true. More people have been doing it our way, than your way. More people get results our way than your way (so far it's just you an a few stragglers as far as I can tell, but I don't have a large enough random sample to make a good call.)

BE wary when dealing with mental phenomena, psychological functions cause many aberrational results merely out of preconceived notions.
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March 03, 2010, 11:13:26 AM
Reply #129

Violet

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My way does that, your way doesn't do anything to distrupt that stream of thoughts, so henceforth that thought stream is always going to be interferring in your progress and sabotaging everything that your trying to do with magic.

It would take too much time to comment on everything you have said since my last post, so I will restrict myself to this. First of all, please do not accuse people of practicing things the wrong way saying 'it does not work your way' even if you have tried it out yourself. I can say from personal experience that watching the thoughts and being a passive observer towards them will slow them down and make less thoughts come in. Not to mention the fact that we are not trying to disrupt the stream of thoughts, I simply let then fade away of their own because I did not linger on these thoughts. Thus, the thought stream does slow down when practicing this exercise the way I believe Bardon described it.

Second, these streams of thoughts are only always going to be interfering in your progress and sabotaging everything that you are trying to do with magic, as you nicely put it, if you do not proceed to the other mental exercises of the first step. The first exercise calms the mind and prepares the mind for concentrating on thoughts for a longer period of time, but ultimately does not do this all by itself. On the other hand, I stand open to the idea that someone who practices thought control long enough, will eventually get a completely silent mind, as such a person will gradually pay less and less attention to these thoughts, until there is only an empty void. Nevertheless, I do not only practice this first exercise, and I do not feel obliged to test this.

March 03, 2010, 11:41:54 AM
Reply #130

Mindlessinvalid

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Defilements are like a cat, feed it and it'll keep coming around. Cease feeding it, and it will not bother to come around again.


If you feed your thoughts, they will come. Stop feeding them and they won't.

I personally have had success, but personal anecdotes and testimony are useless in a debate of what does and doesn't work. What is of use is a stack of testimonies of others. Do you mean to tell me that every successful hermeticist is wrong?
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March 03, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
Reply #131

Mindlessinvalid

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I just said "I personally have had success, but personal anecdotes and testimony are useless in a debate of what does and doesn't work."

so don't tell me that I haven't told you what I've experienced. What I've experienced is irrelevant. It's biased, it's got little substance to it until more similar testimonies are bundled together.

You seem to ignore valid points in favor of a "I got results, so I must be right even though many others do something else and also get results!"

Besides, your quote of Bardon's work earlier was incomplete. It was taken out of context so was not valid.

Steve highlighted the relevant bits when he posted the entire passage and you ignored that too.

I'm not sure why I even care, because it's not my job to put you in the same line as everyone else.

I guess I'm defending my point of view, but even that is pointless because it's not necessary as nothing is at stake and I'm talking to a brick wall.
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March 03, 2010, 01:10:16 PM
Reply #132

Mindlessinvalid

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I've already forgotten what the OP's intent was for this thread on hermetics (no pun intended).

I've been practicing the first exercise in step one.

The reason being is that I want to do things thoroughly.

I've gotten great results so far. I can actually distinguish thoughts from each other. Before, my trains of thought went off in every conceivable direction at once. Now I can sit and enjoy mental silence without so much as a whisper of thought.

It's very peaceful, and it makes me feel happy for some reason.

I'm very glad I stumbled onto IIH, without it I would not have this peace of mind I currently have gained.

I also read a bit of the kybalion commentaries every day and meditate on the meanings of the maxims each commentary is about, as well as the commentary and how the maxims and interpretations of those maxims differ or compliment my own beliefs.
Clothes make the man, and naked people have little or no say in society.

March 04, 2010, 09:31:22 AM
Reply #133

Necuno

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Quote
First Part:
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts, freely and independently.
The main point is not to forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.

still not exactly sure what i should be doing from what i understand i should

1) be relaxed
2) let the thoughts run through my mind
3) per each thought notice what it is about... aka i bumped my toe and it was sore
4) try to remember all of them

...that it ?
"Let us begin by doubting every statement"

March 04, 2010, 02:57:37 PM
Reply #134

Mindlessinvalid

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Forgetting yourselfi s cheating more or less.

You have to keep a neutral mind while remembering you exist in order to get the right kind of mental workout that will allow for more complicated workings.
Clothes make the man, and naked people have little or no say in society.